Class Conundrum - What should I be? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Class Conundrum - What should I be? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Riplox
10-07-07, 11:50 PM I'm in a 3 person group that consists of a Kobold Dragon Shaman, a Halfling Rogue, and me. My character died a few sessions ago and I'm now playing the Human NPC Cleric, Kyrnin, from The Ettin's Riddle adventure (yes, he's been with us that long). However, I don't want to be playing as him for much longer and we'd basically have him go off with another group in our organization (Royal Guards). This is when we'd bring my character in.

Our Dragon Shaman can heal 90 a day, but I don't think we should have him as our main healer. Our rogue can sneak attack sometimes (when we're not fighting undead or plants) dealing out a pretty decent amount of damage, but we don't have a true fighter with a good BAB or consistent damage output or defense bypassing. Our DS sucks when it comes to melee, so anything that has good resistances against his breath weapon almost nullifies him when it comes to combat, and our rogue is well, just a rogue.

I know spells are powerful, but there are a lot of mitigating factors when it comes to them (SR, Saves, Immunities, etc) and I need something consistent but powerful to the group, but a way to also heal and remove effects (including outside of combat). I know Clerics are powerful, but I don't want to have to cast a spell (Div Power) to becoming close in effectiveness to Fighter or Paladin in combat. Is there anything out there with good spell-casting and combat ability without having to buff, buff, buff before combat? Most of the time, we have little notice of exactly what we're going up against, and I just end up choosing general spells for the day, which isn't that effective combat-wise. So far, we haven't run into too much spell mitigation/nullification and the going is pretty easy once we do get buffed, even against things with CRs 2-3 higher than our party average (9 at the moment). Is a Druid my only answer? I mean, I LOVE being the melee guy and am really good at it, so I was thinking of going crusader, but ideally I'd be a gestalt warblade/cleric which isn't going to happen (next campaign maybe). If we keep our cleric, I can go Crusader/Cleric/RKV...I need help.
discipleofevil
10-08-07, 12:06 AM druid is about the best you will get in all around ability.
if you wanted to run like a cleric6/fighter? you would be able to do cure serious and still be a pretty good melee. maybe go cleric/paladin or something else along the same lines.
StevenO
10-08-07, 12:13 AM For some reason I think a Gnome Beguiler would make the group VERY interesting.
Habronicus
10-08-07, 06:59 AM Maybe I just missed it, but why not a full Paladin?

Anyway, I find RPing works best when you're playing the characters you like, not the one's who make the party more "battle-effective" - you can always hire NPCs, if it comes to that. It's really up to the GM, but consider playing what is most of fun for you, and then find ways to adapt.
FarrenCronwing
10-08-07, 08:22 AM I believe the feat is Divine Metamagic, which opens up access to Persistant Spell. It'll allow you to exchange turning for a 24 hour buff. Divine Power with this makes you as effective, if not MORE effective, as the fighter, and you'd STILL have access to spells.
DM Zoc
10-08-07, 08:33 AM I would second the call of paladin, as two half-healers is really all you need in a three person party. Druid wouldn't be a bad choice, but a lot of that also depends on buff time.

If you want to focus more heavily on the martial aspect, you could always use the prestige paladin from Unearthed Arcana.
Callix
10-08-07, 08:53 AM I would second the call of paladin, as two half-healers is really all you need in a three person party. Druid wouldn't be a bad choice, but a lot of that also depends on buff time.

If you want to focus more heavily on the martial aspect, you could always use the prestige paladin from Unearthed Arcana.

I would be right behind Paladin, if it wasn't for the fact that it's not really worth more than 5 levels, tops. Then again, if you don't want to use Divine Metamagic (Persistent), then a paladin with access to Complete Champion is a solid melee/support healer. Get him a wand of Cure Light Wounds or two, and get everyone back up to healthy between fights. CChamp opens up Battle Blessing, a feat allowing you to use Paladin spells as a swift action.

Druid depends very little on buff time. Past level 8 you can just wildshape in the morning and be good for the whole day. Natural Spell and some Greater Magic Fangs, maybe with a Rod of Extend, complete the slaughtering. Again, wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor are very cost-efficient healing, and are actually worth less than your spell slots when used effectively. Your BAB is a non-issue when you can just use a bear's Strength score, Improved Grab, and size grapple modifier. Alternatively, you can try a Fleshraker's overwhelming pouncing charges, or any of a number of other highly lethal animals. And when melee combat isn't such a good idea, you can lay down debuffs, save-or-loses, and even a few good party buffs with all the goodness of full-casting, and none of the MAD (such as there is) of a melee Cleric. From 6th level onwards, you have two important stats: Wisdom and Constitution. Int and Cha are nice bonuses, and Str and Dex are replaced with Wildshape and should be dumped.
Riplox
10-08-07, 09:44 AM Awesome responses! Looks like Druid is what I'll be afterall. I was going to do that from the begining, but I wanted to check other options before making a choice. Oh, and should I take a level of cleric to get turning and then get Divine Metamagic along with say, Extend or Empower, then get Extra Turning?
Prator_the_Legendary
10-08-07, 03:41 PM Well, if you ask me, what you want is one of the Tome of Battle classes, probably a Swordsage. The assortment of special attacks those guys pack makes them powerful fighters, and they have powers that are similar to spellcasters in some ways...

But if you're hooked on the Druid idea, I'd recommend against multiclassing just for the feats.
Sinfire Titan
10-08-07, 03:46 PM Well, if you ask me, what you want is one of the Tome of Battle classes, probably a Crusader. The assortment of special attacks those guys pack makes them powerful fighters, and they have powers that are similar to spellcasters in some ways...

But if you're hooked on the Druid idea, I'd recommend against multiclassing just for the feats.

Fixed.
Prator_the_Legendary
10-08-07, 03:55 PM Crusaders might have better attack bonuses, but Swordsages get a more diverse array of manuevers. Take your pick, they're all gold.

On an unrelated note, if you lack for healing, I think all you need is a character with Use Magic Device and a Happy Stick (Wand of Cure Light Wounds) to solve all problems. Alternately, somebody could take the Leadership feat and snag a cleric cohort, or you could hire somebody.
Kamin_Majere
10-08-07, 04:05 PM What about a Gish? Your group doesnt seem to have any spell abilties at all.

Why not Wizard > Paladin/Fighter* > Eldritch Knight > Abjurant Champion

You should get a Caster Level 18 and a 16+ BAB by 20th level so you're pretty much golden on both sides of the coin.

Grab a twilight mithral chain shirt and with the adjurant champions ability with the Shield spell your AC should be close to on par for any level your at. Plus you can hack and slash or use spells when needed.

*Paladin vs fighter:
Paladin will give you access to be able to use the Cure Light Wounds wands. And if a 2nd level is taken (dropping you caster level to 17... still 9th level spells) you get your CHA mod to your saves.
Fighter will give you bonus feats, which will help make certain things easier.
Sinfire Titan
10-08-07, 11:28 PM Crusaders might have better attack bonuses, but Swordsages get a more diverse array of manuevers. Take your pick, they're all gold.

On an unrelated note, if you lack for healing, I think all you need is a character with Use Magic Device and a Happy Stick (Wand of Cure Light Wounds) to solve all problems. Alternately, somebody could take the Leadership feat and snag a cleric cohort, or you could hire somebody.

But Crusaders have the advantage of being able to heal other party members without wasting an attack thanks to a few stances. I admit, swordsages are great when it comes to maneuvers known, but they have the disadvantage of having two of their most powerful styles being based off of the supernatural.

In the end, it depends on who is needed more, magical attacks, or healing/tank.
Yami
10-12-07, 10:15 AM I've played both a crusader / wiz / jpm and a crusader / cleric, and I must say crusader is NICE for any sort of tank / secondary healer role. My crusader cleric was only ever going to have 2 levels of crusader, and even that provided some reasonable in combat healing for a 6th level party. My gish crusader hasn't had as much play in combat, but she's capable of healing quite a bit.

I found the crusader to be a very fun, useful, but not overpoweringly overshadowing class. It plays very well with others - many abilities heal or buff or protect party members, so it's always well appreciated.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Riplox 10-07-07, 11:50 PM	I'm in a 3 person group that consists of a Kobold Dragon Shaman, a Halfling Rogue, and me. My character died a few sessions ago and I'm now playing the Human NPC Cleric, Kyrnin, from The Ettin's Riddle adventure (yes, he's been with us that long). However, I don't want to be playing as him for much longer and we'd basically have him go off with another group in our organization (Royal Guards). This is when we'd bring my character in. Our Dragon Shaman can heal 90 a day, but I don't think we should have him as our main healer. Our rogue can sneak attack sometimes (when we're not fighting undead or plants) dealing out a pretty decent amount of damage, but we don't have a true fighter with a good BAB or consistent damage output or defense bypassing. Our DS sucks when it comes to melee, so anything that has good resistances against his breath weapon almost nullifies him when it comes to combat, and our rogue is well, just a rogue. I know spells are powerful, but there are a lot of mitigating factors when it comes to them (SR, Saves, Immunities, etc) and I need something consistent but powerful to the group, but a way to also heal and remove effects (including outside of combat). I know Clerics are powerful, but I don't want to have to cast a spell (Div Power) to becoming close in effectiveness to Fighter or Paladin in combat. Is there anything out there with good spell-casting and combat ability without having to buff, buff, buff before combat? Most of the time, we have little notice of exactly what we're going up against, and I just end up choosing general spells for the day, which isn't that effective combat-wise. So far, we haven't run into too much spell mitigation/nullification and the going is pretty easy once we do get buffed, even against things with CRs 2-3 higher than our party average (9 at the moment). Is a Druid my only answer? I mean, I LOVE being the melee guy and am really good at it, so I was thinking of going crusader, but ideally I'd be a gestalt warblade/cleric which isn't going to happen (next campaign maybe). If we keep our cleric, I can go Crusader/Cleric/RKV...I need help.
discipleofevil 10-08-07, 12:06 AM	druid is about the best you will get in all around ability. if you wanted to run like a cleric6/fighter? you would be able to do cure serious and still be a pretty good melee. maybe go cleric/paladin or something else along the same lines.
StevenO 10-08-07, 12:13 AM	For some reason I think a Gnome Beguiler would make the group VERY interesting.
Habronicus 10-08-07, 06:59 AM	Maybe I just missed it, but why not a full Paladin? Anyway, I find RPing works best when you're playing the characters you like, not the one's who make the party more "battle-effective" - you can always hire NPCs, if it comes to that. It's really up to the GM, but consider playing what is most of fun for you, and then find ways to adapt.
FarrenCronwing 10-08-07, 08:22 AM	I believe the feat is Divine Metamagic, which opens up access to Persistant Spell. It'll allow you to exchange turning for a 24 hour buff. Divine Power with this makes you as effective, if not MORE effective, as the fighter, and you'd STILL have access to spells.
DM Zoc 10-08-07, 08:33 AM	I would second the call of paladin, as two half-healers is really all you need in a three person party. Druid wouldn't be a bad choice, but a lot of that also depends on buff time. If you want to focus more heavily on the martial aspect, you could always use the prestige paladin from Unearthed Arcana.
Callix 10-08-07, 08:53 AM	I would second the call of paladin, as two half-healers is really all you need in a three person party. Druid wouldn't be a bad choice, but a lot of that also depends on buff time. If you want to focus more heavily on the martial aspect, you could always use the prestige paladin from Unearthed Arcana. I would be right behind Paladin, if it wasn't for the fact that it's not really worth more than 5 levels, tops. Then again, if you don't want to use Divine Metamagic (Persistent), then a paladin with access to Complete Champion is a solid melee/support healer. Get him a wand of Cure Light Wounds or two, and get everyone back up to healthy between fights. CChamp opens up Battle Blessing, a feat allowing you to use Paladin spells as a swift action. Druid depends very little on buff time. Past level 8 you can just wildshape in the morning and be good for the whole day. Natural Spell and some Greater Magic Fangs, maybe with a Rod of Extend, complete the slaughtering. Again, wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor are very cost-efficient healing, and are actually worth less than your spell slots when used effectively. Your BAB is a non-issue when you can just use a bear's Strength score, Improved Grab, and size grapple modifier. Alternatively, you can try a Fleshraker's overwhelming pouncing charges, or any of a number of other highly lethal animals. And when melee combat isn't such a good idea, you can lay down debuffs, save-or-loses, and even a few good party buffs with all the goodness of full-casting, and none of the MAD (such as there is) of a melee Cleric. From 6th level onwards, you have two important stats: Wisdom and Constitution. Int and Cha are nice bonuses, and Str and Dex are replaced with Wildshape and should be dumped.
Riplox 10-08-07, 09:44 AM	Awesome responses! Looks like Druid is what I'll be afterall. I was going to do that from the begining, but I wanted to check other options before making a choice. Oh, and should I take a level of cleric to get turning and then get Divine Metamagic along with say, Extend or Empower, then get Extra Turning?
Prator_the_Legendary 10-08-07, 03:41 PM	Well, if you ask me, what you want is one of the Tome of Battle classes, probably a Swordsage. The assortment of special attacks those guys pack makes them powerful fighters, and they have powers that are similar to spellcasters in some ways... But if you're hooked on the Druid idea, I'd recommend against multiclassing just for the feats.
Sinfire Titan 10-08-07, 03:46 PM	Well, if you ask me, what you want is one of the Tome of Battle classes, probably a Crusader. The assortment of special attacks those guys pack makes them powerful fighters, and they have powers that are similar to spellcasters in some ways... But if you're hooked on the Druid idea, I'd recommend against multiclassing just for the feats. Fixed.
Prator_the_Legendary 10-08-07, 03:55 PM	Crusaders might have better attack bonuses, but Swordsages get a more diverse array of manuevers. Take your pick, they're all gold. On an unrelated note, if you lack for healing, I think all you need is a character with Use Magic Device and a Happy Stick (Wand of Cure Light Wounds) to solve all problems. Alternately, somebody could take the Leadership feat and snag a cleric cohort, or you could hire somebody.
Kamin_Majere 10-08-07, 04:05 PM	What about a Gish? Your group doesnt seem to have any spell abilties at all. Why not Wizard > Paladin/Fighter* > Eldritch Knight > Abjurant Champion You should get a Caster Level 18 and a 16+ BAB by 20th level so you're pretty much golden on both sides of the coin. Grab a twilight mithral chain shirt and with the adjurant champions ability with the Shield spell your AC should be close to on par for any level your at. Plus you can hack and slash or use spells when needed. *Paladin vs fighter: Paladin will give you access to be able to use the Cure Light Wounds wands. And if a 2nd level is taken (dropping you caster level to 17... still 9th level spells) you get your CHA mod to your saves. Fighter will give you bonus feats, which will help make certain things easier.
Sinfire Titan 10-08-07, 11:28 PM	Crusaders might have better attack bonuses, but Swordsages get a more diverse array of manuevers. Take your pick, they're all gold. On an unrelated note, if you lack for healing, I think all you need is a character with Use Magic Device and a Happy Stick (Wand of Cure Light Wounds) to solve all problems. Alternately, somebody could take the Leadership feat and snag a cleric cohort, or you could hire somebody. But Crusaders have the advantage of being able to heal other party members without wasting an attack thanks to a few stances. I admit, swordsages are great when it comes to maneuvers known, but they have the disadvantage of having two of their most powerful styles being based off of the supernatural. In the end, it depends on who is needed more, magical attacks, or healing/tank.
Yami 10-12-07, 10:15 AM	I've played both a crusader / wiz / jpm and a crusader / cleric, and I must say crusader is NICE for any sort of tank / secondary healer role. My crusader cleric was only ever going to have 2 levels of crusader, and even that provided some reasonable in combat healing for a 6th level party. My gish crusader hasn't had as much play in combat, but she's capable of healing quite a bit. I found the crusader to be a very fun, useful, but not overpoweringly overshadowing class. It plays very well with others - many abilities heal or buff or protect party members, so it's always well appreciated.