Post/Author/DateTime	Post
1red13 09-15-07, 02:18 PM	On one thread one person pointed out that druids and clerics are the best ever classes hands down. Now i like clerics just fine and have played them on occasion. 3.0 and 3.5 certainly helped out clerics in comparison to other classes. I was never overly impressed with them. Having never played a druid but i never had a high opinion of them. Any thoughts on why these classes are so highly regarded.
happy_fuzzy 09-15-07, 02:32 PM	druid is one of the best becasue #1) he gets a free buddy(animal companion) that if outfitted properly can be almost as a good as a fighter at mid-levels and better at low-levels. #2)the druid can melee whenever he wants instead of casting (wildshape) #3) he is a caster
Novabomb 09-15-07, 02:43 PM	There is no such thing as a best class. Druids and clerics are among the most Powerful classes however.
AnonymousInternets 09-15-07, 05:09 PM	Clerics and Druids, if made correctly, can fight better than a fighter, barbarian, paladin, or ranger in melee while still casting very strong spells with no armor check penalty or restrictions on spells known. On top of this, Druid has wild shapes and an animal companion, and the cleric has divine metamagic (Complete Divine). The druid will usually out-brawl a cleric, and be able to adapt to more situations, but the cleric usually has a slightly better magic setup (boost/buff spells aside). Simply put, no other classes compare.
Drag0nUL 09-15-07, 06:05 PM	The main asset of the Cleric and Druid ais versatility. They are both All-in-one characters. Need a fighter? Wildshaped druid or cleric with Divine Power+Righteous Might can do it better than most pure melee builds. Need a spellcaster? Cleric and Druid have full spellcasting progression. Need a trapfinder? Druid's animal companions or a Cleric with the right spells (find traps/understand device) can do it no problem.
1red13 09-16-07, 02:04 AM	Perhaps its just memory of old edition clerics and their limited spell lists. They were an important linchpin of adventuring as long as they memorized healing spells. Other than that they were the sickly cousin of fighters for a dust up. In the various threads they are given great praise for their versatility and how they can buff themself up to equal or exceed fighters and i suppose rogues. But to me they really have to have greater forsight than will likely be the case. Memorizing healing spells at the right time but alternately memorizing buff spells at just the right time. Although good clerics can default to a healing spell a good many examples have their clerics behaving in a very mercenary way withholding healing Truthfully i've become to have a greater appreciation for druids of late. I've never played one but i'm still unconvincec that they with clerics have some sort of supremacy over others other than specific optimized circumstances
Salla 09-16-07, 02:11 AM	Perhaps its just memory of old edition clerics and their limited spell lists. They were an important linchpin of adventuring as long as they memorized healing spells. Other than that they were the sickly cousin of fighters for a dust up. In the various threads they are given great praise for their versatility and how they can buff themself up to equal or exceed fighters and i suppose rogues. But to me they really have to have greater forsight than will likely be the case. Memorizing healing spells at the right time but alternately memorizing buff spells at just the right time. Although good clerics can default to a healing spell a good many examples have their clerics behaving in a very mercenary way withholding healing Truthfully i've become to have a greater appreciation for druids of late. I've never played one but i'm still unconvincec that they with clerics have some sort of supremacy over others other than specific optimized circumstances The Cleric, perhaps ... its most powerful build is the Divine Metamagic-Persistent Spell combo, sprinkling liberally with Nightsticks. Which basically means 'Toss 1 4th level spell and 1 5th level spell for +14 to STR, full BAB, reach, and a few temporary HP all bloody day'. Then you can easily blast, buff, or throw save-or-dies/save-or-screweds all day long. The Druid, however, needs only one feat - Natural Spell - to kick everybody's butt, possibly simultaneously. It has spontaneous summoning, so it can spam the battlefield with as many allies as it needs. His Animal Companion is better than the fighter. The Druid spell list kicks butt.
LordofNightmares 09-16-07, 02:28 AM	Once a druids Summon Nature's Ally can summon a unicorn, it becomes the most efficient healer in the game.
draco1119 09-16-07, 03:21 AM	The Cleric, perhaps ... its most powerful build is the Divine Metamagic-Persistent Spell combo, sprinkling liberally with Nightsticks. Which basically means 'Toss 1 4th level spell and 1 5th level spell for +14 to STR, full BAB, reach, and a few temporary HP all bloody day'. Then you can easily blast, buff, or throw save-or-dies/save-or-screweds all day long. You forgot to add "Con bump for even more temporary HPs and better Fort saves, higher AC due to natural armor, higher damage due to a bigger weapon, and DR." Yes, I use a cleric with these spells. No, I don't Persist them (DM won't let me! :P). And if you add Divine Agility into the mix... People forget, however, how much better clerics can make the other classes, too. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful for an extra attack and a +3 morale bonus to melee attack and damage rolls. Mass Conviction for a +2-+5 (depending on caster level) morale bonus to all saves. Heroes' Feast to cure multiple ailments, grant temporary HP, and immunity to fear for 12 hours. The list keeps going. No other class has as much ability to make the rest of the party better than the cleric/favored soul.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 06:02 AM	If you want powerful, try a gish, spellsword or abjurant champion for example :) But yeah druids and clerics are really powerful classes, that's true, though I am not a fan of either. I like my spellswords :)
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 06:32 AM	If you want powerful, try a gish, spellsword or abjurant champion for example :) But yeah druids and clerics are really powerful classes, that's true, though I am not a fan of either. I like my spellswords :) I am a fan of gishes too. While powerful in their own right, they aren't that much compared with a cleric/druid. In order to compete with any of the above classes, you will have to go with at least one of the 3 ways of gish cheese (or at least I consider them so): Wraithstrike, Polymorph or AMF+Extraodrinary Spell Aim. If you choose to forego all of these you would be just an other buufed-up fighter with worse BAB, worse buffs(arcane buffs tend to lag a bit behind divine ones) and worse HP.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 06:57 AM	I am a fan of gishes too. While powerful in their own right, they aren't that much compared with a cleric/druid. In order to compete with any of the above classes, you will have to go with at least one of the 3 ways of gish cheese (or at least I consider them so): Wraithstrike, Polymorph or AMF+Extraodrinary Spell Aim. If you choose to forego all of these you would be just an other buufed-up fighter with worse BAB, worse buffs(arcane buffs tend to lag a bit behind divine ones) and worse HP. What's with all the cheese stuff lol? What's that all about,I don't quite get the cheese reference :) They are indeed powerful, I believe that a gish is more powerful than a druid or cleric though, when played right.
Lormador 09-16-07, 09:26 AM	It seems like we should regard the extra power of the cleric and the druid as something wrong, something to be corrected, that we as DMs should be trying to balance our games so players aren't effectively discouraged from playing other classes because of the excessive power of these. Does anyone else remember 2nd edition, where the cleric was very easily the best class? It even says so, right in the Complete Book of Priests. This is an old and well-known problem and we seem to have lost sight of the fact that it is, indeed, a very serious problem. Let me put this in another way. Has this ever happened to you? A player says, "You know, I've never played a bard and I have a cool idea for a nice harpist," before they grimace and look to the other pages, "but then again wildshape is so nice, really, and healing spells are great to have.... Oh well. I guess I'll play a druid again. Human with Greenbound Summoning and Spellfire Wielder, please."
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 10:09 AM	To be honest, I am not really bothered by the CoDzilla power level. It has been quite some time since I gave up the goal of being the most powerful character in the group and play what I like. Still, I want my chosen character to be able to bring something to the group and fell useful overall. For example, when I play a Gish I know I won't compete with the Cleric/Druid in buffed-up melee damage. Rather I focus on complementary combat tactics: battlefield mobility (with Dimension Door, Invisibility, Fly), crowd control (grease, web, Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Wall of whatever) and some of the (de)buffs unique to arcane magic,like Haste and Slow. What bothers ma about Clerics/Druids is that they make some classes completely useless. I see no point in playing a fighter when a Druid can dish out melee damage better than you do, while still being a great healer, scout and overall spellcaster.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 10:51 AM	For example, when I play a Gish I know I won't compete with the Cleric/Druid in buffed-up melee damage. Actually, I do think that a spellsword/abjurant champion gish can deal way more damage than a buffed cleric or druid. I have never played a cleric or druid, so not sure how much damage they can dish out...but I do think that neither a cleric nor a druid can keep up with the damage a good gish can dish out. Do correct if I am wrong though, since I do not know that much about clerics and druids :)
Hack and Smasher 09-16-07, 11:39 AM	The balancing factor with cleric and druids is and always has been the other 3 waste of spell slots that you have heal, thats why clerics have domains and spontaous casting and druids have wildshape and animal companion. Now in party with more than one divine caster they have less need to heal so they can use the rest of there spells in other ways.
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 11:47 AM	Well in certain respects you might be right. A well-built gish has a respectable burst-damage potential. The problem is that doing it either requires a lot of preparation time (Bite of the were-whatever is 1 round/level,as is haste and some other nice buffs so you have to lose several rounds in combat buffing-up). either burns up resources at an incredible rate (Arcane Strike and Arcane Boost require you to expend a spell slot every round and you really don't have that many). In comparison a Cleric has Divine Metamagic so he can make all the buffs he needs last 24 hours. And the Druid's Wild Shape is 1 hour/level. So: taking only one fight into account (and assuming enough preparation time) a gish might compete with a Cleric/Druid. But in a standard adventuring environment, with multiple fights spread over a longer period, the Driud or Cleric will come out on top.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 12:10 PM	Well in certain respects you might be right. A well-built gish has a respectable burst-damage potential. The problem is that doing it either requires a lot of preparation time (Bite of the were-whatever is 1 round/level,as is haste and some other nice buffs so you have to lose several rounds in combat buffing-up). either burns up resources at an incredible rate (Arcane Strike and Arcane Boost require you to expend a spell slot every round and you really don't have that many). In comparison a Cleric has Divine Metamagic so he can make all the buffs he needs last 24 hours. And the Druid's Wild Shape is 1 hour/level. So: taking only one fight into account (and assuming enough preparation time) a gish might compete with a Cleric/Druid. But in a standard adventuring environment, with multiple fights spread over a longer period, the Driud or Cleric will come out on top. Actually, I imagine that a gish only needs wraithsrike, arcane strike, and arcane boost to deal some serious damage, along with the power attack feat. using all these abilities and feats can be done in one round, plus a full round action. Haste isn't really an issue, it's just a bonus on the side that allows for one more attack. Gishes don't really need much preparation, they are dangerous even without giving them any time for preparation. Given time for prep though, they just become more dangerous. Plus a sorcerer gish can keep up with a druid or cleric anytime :) Wizards do need to be more conservative when it comes to wasting spells just like that though, but sorcerers can compete no problem.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 12:11 PM	Well in certain respects you might be right. A well-built gish has a respectable burst-damage potential. The problem is that doing it either requires a lot of preparation time (Bite of the were-whatever is 1 round/level,as is haste and some other nice buffs so you have to lose several rounds in combat buffing-up). either burns up resources at an incredible rate (Arcane Strike and Arcane Boost require you to expend a spell slot every round and you really don't have that many). In comparison a Cleric has Divine Metamagic so he can make all the buffs he needs last 24 hours. And the Druid's Wild Shape is 1 hour/level. So: taking only one fight into account (and assuming enough preparation time) a gish might compete with a Cleric/Druid. But in a standard adventuring environment, with multiple fights spread over a longer period, the Driud or Cleric will come out on top. Actually, I imagine that a gish only needs wraithsrike, arcane strike, and arcane boost to deal some serious damage, along with the power attack feat. Using all these abilities and feats can be done in one round, plus a full round action. Haste isn't really an issue, it's just a bonus on the side that allows for one more attack. Besides, divine casters need to waste rounds to buff up too (cleric especially). Gishes don't really need much preparation, they are dangerous even without giving them any time for preparation. Given time for prep though, and they just become more dangerous. Plus a sorcerer gish can keep up with a druid or cleric anytime :) Wizards do need to be more conservative when it comes to wasting spells just like that though, but sorcerers can compete no problem.
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 02:58 PM	Actually, I imagine that a gish only needs wraithsrike, arcane strike, and arcane boost to deal some serious damage, along with the power attack feat. Using all these abilities and feats can be done in one round, plus a full round action. Haste isn't really an issue, it's just a bonus on the side that allows for one more attack. Besides, divine casters need to waste rounds to buff up too (cleric especially). Gishes don't really need much preparation, they are dangerous even without giving them any time for preparation. Given time for prep though, and they just become more dangerous. Plus a sorcerer gish can keep up with a druid or cleric anytime :) Wizards do need to be more conservative when it comes to wasting spells just like that though, but sorcerers can compete no problem. Well, you can't use the Arcane Boost and Wraithstrike in the same round as they are both swift actions(and wraithstrike is the most overpowered spell in any book IMHO but that's beside the point). So it is probably down to the Wraithstrike+Arcane Strike+Power Attack combo. And still, you are burning 2 spells each round. A level 20 wizard 36 spell slots, so that would be enough to keep this trick up for 18 rounds. Pretty little IMHO, and you have wasted you entire spell selection on this. The sorcerer fares a bit better with 36 spell slots or 27 rounds of doing this, but pays the price in a pretty limited spell selection. And even if you pull all those tricks off, you are still pretty much under the damage output of a Leap Attacking Pouncing Druid. And clerics don't need preparation at all, they can have most good buffs active all day long with Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic.
Cold Napalm 09-16-07, 02:59 PM	Actually, I imagine that a gish only needs wraithsrike, arcane strike, and arcane boost to deal some serious damage, along with the power attack feat. Using all these abilities and feats can be done in one round, plus a full round action. Haste isn't really an issue, it's just a bonus on the side that allows for one more attack. Besides, divine casters need to waste rounds to buff up too (cleric especially). Umm yes the wraith strike cheese does allow quite a bit of damage...but arcane boost and arcane strike STILL burns your resources at some scary fast rate. I like gishes too and play them often. The main thing about the cleric is you DON'T need to waste rounds. Your buffs are up 24/7 with DMM cheese. The druid...well the druid just don't need any buffs, they have natural spell. Yes I love my gish...but I have as of yet to make a DM cry and curl up in a fetal position with a gish...I have however done that with a core only druid (in reply to how "broken" my spellsword gish was). Gishes don't really need much preparation, they are dangerous even without giving them any time for preparation. Given time for prep though, and they just become more dangerous. Dangerous...yes...also oh so fragile. Clerics and druids are getting d8 for all 20 levels...how many level of d4 does your gish build have? How about d6s? Yeah... Plus a sorcerer gish can keep up with a druid or cleric anytime :) Wizards do need to be more conservative when it comes to wasting spells just like that though, but sorcerers can compete no problem. Sorcerer gish used to just pump out damage is a rather sub optimal use of a gish. I mean arcane strike does allow you to take good spells as a sorcerer gish and burn up spell slots to do damage, but if your going the spellsword route, I assume your taking at least 5 levels for spell channel cheese and at that point, you should be able to straight out nullify something anyways without a save (spell channel AMF for caster or force cage for non...I know you can just cast force cage...but since spell channel is a spell like, no 1500gp material cost...and you can use the non barred version on huge or larger creatures).
TheMonk 09-16-07, 03:20 PM	Umm yes the wraith strike cheese does allow quite a bit of damage...but arcane boost and arcane strike STILL burns your resources at some scary fast rate. I like gishes too and play them often. The main thing about the cleric is you DON'T need to waste rounds. Your buffs are up 24/7 with DMM cheese. The druid...well the druid just don't need any buffs, they have natural spell. Yes I love my gish...but I have as of yet to make a DM cry and curl up in a fetal position with a gish...I have however done that with a core only druid (in reply to how "broken" my spellsword gish was). Very true, but with a sorcerer gish + ring of wizardry II or even ring of wizardry I, you can get so many wraithstrikes per day it's sickening lol. With a wizard this may be an issue since they don't get to cast as many spells as sorcerers. But with a sorcerer, wasting slots isn't that much of a problem :) For example a lv 20 sorcerer gish is capable of doing around 400 damage or so in a full round, with 3 spell slots expended only. For a sorcerer this is nothing. At lv 20 he does this whenever he needs it :) Dangerous...yes...also oh so fragile. Clerics and druids are getting d8 for all 20 levels...how many level of d4 does your gish build have? How about d6s? Yeah... Hmm well my personal gish is this...paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword9/Abjurant champion5. 7th level spells, 18 BAB, almost the same base HP than druid or cleric. See below. Now take the base HP of a lv 20 druid (not counting con or feats, only base hit dice), or cleric - it's 160. My gish above has a base HP of 158. So just 2 HP difference, which is nothing really. With the same feats and same con my gish above has only 2 HP less. My gishes aren't squishy ;) Sorcerer gish used to just pump out damage is a rather sub optimal use of a gish. I mean arcane strike does allow you to take good spells as a sorcerer gish and burn up spell slots to do damage, but if your going the spellsword route, I assume your taking at least 5 levels for spell channel cheese and at that point, you should be able to straight out nullify something anyways without a save (spell channel AMF for caster or force cage for non...I know you can just cast force cage...but since spell channel is a spell like, no 1500gp material cost...and you can use the non barred version on huge or larger creatures). Very true. No need for damage when I can channel AMF. But then again we were discussing damage and burning spell slots so I thought Id give an example. Give the chance though I'd always channel AMF vs. any caster than use any other tactic. Well, you can't use the Arcane Boost and Wraithstrike in the same round as they are both swift actions(and wraithstrike is the most overpowered spell in any book IMHO but that's beside the point). So it is probably down to the Wraithstrike+Arcane Strike+Power Attack combo. And still, you are burning 2 spells each round. A level 20 wizard 36 spell slots, so that would be enough to keep this trick up for 18 rounds. Pretty little IMHO, and you have wasted you entire spell selection on this. The sorcerer fares a bit better with 36 spell slots or 27 rounds of doing this, but pays the price in a pretty limited spell selection. And even if you pull all those tricks off, you are still pretty much under the damage output of a Leap Attacking Pouncing Druid. And clerics don't need preparation at all, they can have most good buffs active all day long with Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic. Reply With Quote I see, but wraithstrike can be persisted as well so no need to use them both in the same round :) Besides, I believe that the sorcerer's limited spell selection isn't such a big issue as long as you select your spells wisely. Besides 27 rounds is more than enough to eradicate anything. Plus rings of wizardry can increase the spells per day to a huge amount. Besides, I don't need to fight 24/7, it's not like I gotta pump out crazy damage the whole day. How much damage can a lv 20 leap attack pouncing druid do though? I imagine you subtract a lot from power attack, but if that's the case you have a hard time hitting your opponent right? As far as I know druids don't have something like wraithstrike or anything, so how comes that they get to subtract so much from their power attack while attacking?
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 03:22 PM	Umm yes the wraith strike cheese does allow quite a bit of damage...but arcane boost and arcane strike STILL burns your resources at some scary fast rate. I like gishes too and play them often. The main thing about the cleric is you DON'T need to waste rounds. Your buffs are up 24/7 with DMM cheese. The druid...well the druid just don't need any buffs, they have natural spell. Yes I love my gish...but I have as of yet to make a DM cry and curl up in a fetal position with a gish...I have however done that with a core only druid (in reply to how "broken" my spellsword gish was). I fully agree here. Having played both I agree we are talking about 2 different levels of power here. An arcane Gish is a very powerful character, but clerics/druids are simply devastating in the right hands. Dangerous...yes...also oh so fragile. Clerics and druids are getting d8 for all 20 levels...how many level of d4 does your gish build have? How about d6s? Yeah... That is debatable. Arcane gishes might have significantly lower HP, but they have some very potent survival means unavailable to to other classes. For example, you could use greater blink+displacement+AMF with Extraordiary spell aim. You are immune to spells since you are in an AMF, you have 75% miss chance against all attacks(which can't be negated because as far as I know all True Seeing effects are either spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities, and therefore non-functional in an AMF). Add Polymorph: War Troll, Energy Immunity: Acid for near-immunity to damage too.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 03:42 PM	That is debatable. Arcane gishes might have significantly lower HP, but they have some very potent survival means unavailable to to other classes. Druid or cleric 20 have a base HP of 160. My own gish has a base HP of 158. Gishes don't have low HP, they only have low HP if you're worried about caster levels, which you shouldn't be :)
Drag0nUL 09-16-07, 04:26 PM	Druid or cleric 20 have a base HP of 160. My own gish has a base HP of 158. Gishes don't have low HP, they only have low HP if you're worried about caster levels, which you shouldn't be :) You are only talking about base HP here. What you fail to take into account is Con bonus and Con boosting items and spells. Gishes are MAD like hell. Druid is 100% SAD. For example, if I want the maximum optimization out of a druid I would play a dwarf with 20 con and 18 wis, leaving the rest of the stats at 8.That gives me a base unbuffed hp of 260, while fully buffed and with items it could reach almost 400, which is far more than the total HP I have ever seen on any Gish. I doubt you could pump the con of a Gish so high without crippling him in other areas. You say you shouldn't worry about caster levels. They are not vital for your build, since it relies on Spellsword and channeling spells into attacks. But many other gish builds aim to reach both 4 attacks per round (BAB 16+) and 9th level spells (CL 17+).
TheMonk 09-16-07, 04:36 PM	You are only talking about base HP here. What you fail to take into account is Con bonus and Con boosting items and spells. Gishes are MAD like hell. Druid is 100% SAD. For example, if I want the maximum optimization out of a druid I would play a dwarf with 20 con and 18 wis, leaving the rest of the stats at 8.That gives me a base unbuffed hp of 260, while fully buffed and with items it could reach almost 400, which is far more than the total HP I have ever seen on any Gish. I doubt you could pump the con of a Gish so high without crippling him in other areas. Maybe true, but I can do that kind of damage in 1 round ^^ As for my gish, if I really wanted HP and went for optimization, I'd have 30 con (dwarf) and the imp. toughness feat. Using my build above, that would net me 378 HP. Not bad for a gish huh? That is, IF I wanna optimize and all. So as you see, as far as my gish goes, my HP is pretty much on par with a druid's :) You say you shouldn't worry about caster levels. They are not vital for your build, since it relies on Spellsword and channeling spells into attacks. But many other gish builds aim to reach both 4 attacks per round (BAB 16+) and 9th level spells (CL 17+). Very true, but 9th level spells, while powerful, are not be all end all, and you certainly don't need them to be effective. Besides a gish with 16+ BAB and 9th level spells won't have as much HP, which is important to me because I am fighter first, and caster second, but that's jus the way I play my gish :)
Cold Napalm 09-16-07, 05:50 PM	Very true, but with a sorcerer gish + ring of wizardry II or even ring of wizardry I, you can get so many wraithstrikes per day it's sickening lol. With a wizard this may be an issue since they don't get to cast as many spells as sorcerers. But with a sorcerer, wasting slots isn't that much of a problem :) For example a lv 20 sorcerer gish is capable of doing around 400 damage or so in a full round, with 3 spell slots expended only. For a sorcerer this is nothing. At lv 20 he does this whenever he needs it :) You do realize that uber chargers are doing that much damage at level 9ish right? Not even level 20 required. 400 is piddly at level 20 from an optimized point of view. If you play in an optimized game, damage doesn't matter because your not gonna hit anyways. HP means squat since a hit means your dead. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING will have ways to negate getting hit or taking damage. Yes I run a game for optimizers. Optimizing to the level your talking about in a regular game however borderlines on breaking that game. Optimizing to the level of uber chargers in a normal game WILL break that game. Hmm well my personal gish is this...paladin2/sorcerer4/spellsword9/Abjurant champion5. 7th level spells, 18 BAB, almost the same base HP than druid or cleric. See below. Now take the base HP of a lv 20 druid (not counting con or feats, only base hit dice), or cleric - it's 160. My gish above has a base HP of 158. So just 2 HP difference, which is nothing really. With the same feats and same con my gish above has only 2 HP less. My gishes aren't squishy ;) Well I personally use fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 5/AC 5/unseen seer 3. Thats CL 17 AND BAB 16. Also you say just base hit dice...but a druid can pump thier con way WAY more then your (or my) gish can...with NO lose of effectiveness in other areas. Sure you can pump a gish full of HP...but that comes at a cost. Ususally a rather large cost. Also going by max base hit points, this build has 142 hp...or a measily 16 less then yours...for 9th level spells. And yes gishes ARE squishy...without spells up anyways.
Cold Napalm 09-16-07, 05:54 PM	Very true, but 9th level spells, while powerful, are not be all end all, and you certainly don't need them to be effective. Besides a gish with 16+ BAB and 9th level spells won't have as much HP, which is important to me because I am fighter first, and caster second, but that's jus the way I play my gish :) No that's where your wrong. 9th level spell ARE the be all end all. Thats why druid 20 and cleric 20 are THAT good. A druid 20 has more HP, better attacks in wild shape AND 9th level spells over your gish. No my friend, your gish kinda sucks compared to a druid. My gish that gets spell channeling AND 9th level spells sucks compared to a druid. Yes druids are really THAT broken.
TheMonk 09-16-07, 05:57 PM	You do realize that uber chargers are doing that much damage at level 9ish right? Not even level 20 required. 400 is piddly at level 20 from an optimized point of view. If you play in an optimized game, damage doesn't matter because your not gonna hit anyways. HP means squat since a hit means your dead. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING will have ways to negate getting hit or taking damage. Yes I run a game for optimizers. Optimizing to the level your talking about in a regular game however borderlines on breaking that game. Optimizing to the level of uber chargers in a normal game WILL break that game. Well ok I am no hardcore optimizer, but I guess you're right :) I try to make my character powerful, but stick with what I liked. I don't like changing my physical appearance for example, so I usually don't use spells that change my form etc. I try to make my characters effective and have some fun. Well I personally use fighter 1/wizard 6/spellsword 5/AC 5/unseen seer 3. Thats CL 17 AND BAB 16. Also you say just base hit dice...but a druid can pump thier con way WAY more then your (or my) gish can...with NO lose of effectiveness in other areas. Sure you can pump a gish full of HP...but that comes at a cost. Ususally a rather large cost. Also going by max base hit points, this build has 142 hp...or a measily 16 less then yours...for 9th level spells. And yes gishes ARE squishy...without spells up anyways. Pretty true I guess :) Although I am curious as to how optimized characters deal 400+ damage at level 9 :)
TheMonk 09-16-07, 05:59 PM	No that's where your wrong. 9th level spell ARE the be all end all. Thats why druid 20 and cleric 20 are THAT good. A druid 20 has more HP, better attacks in wild shape AND 9th level spells over your gish. No my friend, your gish kinda sucks compared to a druid. My gish that gets spell channeling AND 9th level spells sucks compared to a druid. Yes druids are really THAT broken. Woah lol. No worries I play my gish build because I like it that way, I don't for optimizing that much. If I were to optimize then that'd be a different story. My gish isn't optimized, but I like it that way, it's still fairly powerful :D
Cold Napalm 09-16-07, 06:08 PM	Well ok I am no hardcore optimizer, but I guess you're right :) I try to make my character powerful, but stick with what I liked. I don't like changing my physical appearance for example, so I usually don't use spells that change my form etc. I try to make my characters effective and have some fun. Thats fine. There is nothing wrong with making it for fun...however it's another matter to come here and say that gishes are stronger then druids because you don't play druids to their potential and play a gish better. When played to thier potentials, the druid smacks the gish down...hard. Pretty true I guess :) Although I am curious as to how optimized characters deal 400+ damage at level 9 :) It revolves around charging on horseback using a lance...with spirited charge...and valorous lance...a certain magical boot in DMG 2...power attacking it all away with shock trooper so you can still hit...and using a lance two handed...getting the picture yet? There more to it...but thats the basic idea.
TheMonk 09-17-07, 06:38 AM	Thats fine. There is nothing wrong with making it for fun...however it's another matter to come here and say that gishes are stronger then druids because you don't play druids to their potential and play a gish better. When played to thier potentials, the druid smacks the gish down...hard. True, I just thought that doing like 400+ damage with a gish was almost the pinnacle of optimization (well, I still play a human always there are better races if I wanna optimize, but my chars are a combination of optimization and personal preference ^^), so I guess I was wrong there. I didn't know you can do 400 damage or so on lv 9 o_O I mean I know frenzied berserker can do way more damage and all...but still. Oh and I wouldn't rule a gish out. A channeled AMF still beats any druid or cleric out there if the gish can win initiative. Of course, nerveskitter helps there big time :) Not to mention celerity. Time stop with celerity too. Buff up, channel AMF, beat them. Nothing they can do about it I believe. It revolves around charging on horseback using a lance...with spirited charge...and valorous lance...a certain magical boot in DMG 2...power attacking it all away with shock trooper so you can still hit...and using a lance two handed...getting the picture yet? There more to it...but thats the basic idea. I get the idea, thanks :)
Drag0nUL 09-17-07, 08:21 AM	True, I just thought that doing like 400+ damage with a gish was almost the pinnacle of optimization (well, I still play a human always there are better races if I wanna optimize, but my chars are a combination of optimization and personal preference ^^), so I guess I was wrong there. I didn't know you can do 400 damage or so on lv 9 o_O I mean I know frenzied berserker can do way more damage and all...but still. Oh and I wouldn't rule a gish out. A channeled AMF still beats any druid or cleric out there if the gish can win initiative. Of course, nerveskitter helps there big time :) Not to mention celerity. Time stop with celerity too. Buff up, channel AMF, beat them. Nothing they can do about it I believe. Doing 400 damage a round is considered optimized in most normal games. But in very optimized games it is a completely different matter. So far I have played in only one fully optimized campaign (both me and my friends can optimize pretty well, but usually we play what we want rather than what is the most effective choice). And by level 18-19, the battle scenario was like this: identify most dangerous foe; guess his weakest save, (de)buff (reaving dispel or assay SR mostly); save-or-lose on chosen save(and if his weakest save was below +30 he would usually be gone). As for your argument that a gish can beat a druid. Of course it can. Just like many other things. Past a certain level of optimization any good build can obliterate most others assuming it wins initiative. The druid is considered superior mostly because it shines more in the 'adventuring environment'.
TheMonk 09-17-07, 08:58 AM	Doing 400 damage a round is considered optimized in most normal games. But in very optimized games it is a completely different matter. So far I have played in only one fully optimized campaign (both me and my friends can optimize pretty well, but usually we play what we want rather than what is the most effective choice). And by level 18-19, the battle scenario was like this: identify most dangerous foe; guess his weakest save, (de)buff (reaving dispel or assay SR mostly); save-or-lose on chosen save(and if his weakest save was below +30 he would usually be gone). I thought that around 400 (maybe even 500 damage with a few crits etc) was the pinnacle of optimizing a gish. Although I gotta admit I am not a hardcore optimizer, I rather like to play characters who fit my vision rather than optimizing them. For example, I could use a few races that make a better spwllsword, but I use human since it's my favorite race. My favorite weapon is the greatsword since I love swords in real life :) I don't use reach weapons since they're not really my style, although I don't shy away from them if I really need them. I am very happy with my version of the spellsword since it's powerful as hell, and fits my vision of an arcane warrior ^^ As for your argument that a gish can beat a druid. Of course it can. Just like many other things. Past a certain level of optimization any good build can obliterate most others assuming it wins initiative. The druid is considered superior mostly because it shines more in the 'adventuring environment'. Very true :)
BW0222 09-17-07, 06:44 PM	1red13, Any thoughts on why these classes are so highly regarded. In most groups there are certain roles within a party -- blocker, healer, blaster (damaging spells), stealth, diplomat, knowledge guy, wilderness travel guy, etc. with the first four being more important. The 'standard' core classes (fighter, rogue, and wizard) each typically handle one role well and maybe a couple of other roles in a secondary manor. For example, a rogue is a great scout, but could be your diplomat as a backup role. The other core classes (barbarian, ranger, paladin, monk, bard, etc.) typically several roles in a less effective manor than the 'standard' classes. A paladin might be an fair blocker (typically not nearly as good as a fighter), a secondary healer, and a secondary diplomat. A ranger a secondary blocker, a secondary scout (not as good as a rogue - no trap finding) and a secondary travel guy. A monk as secondary blocker, stealth, and knowledge guy. In a typical party, with a mixture of these classes, everyone gets about the same balance. The 'standard' core classes are really only good at one thing, while the other classes are good less good at different roles. In a campaign with lots of variety, no one really dominates. When varied encounters come up, different folks tend to take turns solving the problems. Everyone gets a (more or less) equal chance to shine. Druids, and some argue clerics, are different. They appear to be able to handle multiple roles extremely well. Druids are often nearly as affective in multiple roles as the 'standard' specialist. A druid (using wildshape and/or spells) can often block almost as well as a fighter (or better if you include the animal companion with him), blast almost as well as a wizard, stealth as well as a rogue, plus secondary healing, wilderness, and even diplomacy. In a typical party with a druid (and some say clerics), everyone often doesn't get the same chance to take the lead, solve the problem, or defeat the encounter. The druid can take the lead in almost every situation. He can scout the dungeon (wildshape), then blast the enemies to bits, then block, then get you home, and then talk to the fence if necessary. In many cases, he's going the best job of anyone in the group. Clerics, IMO, less so. However, with spells and the right domains, you do get them taking on a lot of roles. Besides healing, they can block, scout (trickery domain), diplomacy, etc. In a smaller party (two or three PCs) druids and clerics may not be that bad. There are so many missing roles that it is expected that a PC needs to fill them -- and typically the other PCs are optimizing. However, in larger parties, the classes often cause issues because that PC is typically constantly using her abilities while others rarely get a chance.