Cleric Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric Dilemma [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GenocideMachine
03-05-06, 10:31 PM My DM has read the "Spontaneous casting" section in the Players Handbook and has ruled that my Cleric could not cast any sort of cure/heal spell if I was evil. I chose chaotic neutral as my alignment and chose heal spells as my spontaneous choice (he said if I chose harm spells I wouldn't be able to cast any heal spell) and now he says I cannot even use Doom because it's "eviiiil" and is opposed to my beliefs/alignment. This is due to me choosing heal spells for spontaneous casting and doom is of the necromancy school. He even goes as far as to say my Cleric wouldn't be OK with our chaotic neutral barbarian choosing the god of slaughter as his god because I'm so "good".

Is he wrong? Should I be able to cast harm spells if I was good and vice versa?
Archmage_Vall
03-05-06, 10:44 PM what the? I could see his point if you were actually a good-aligned cleric who worships a good deity, but a neutral cleric shouldn't have any good/evil alignment problems. If you selected cure spells to spontaneously cast, that doens't mean you can't cast inflict. It just means you have to prepare them, like any other non-cure spell.
Mitchell
03-05-06, 10:44 PM Well, it could be said that the DM is never wrong. I won't say it, but it could be said. :)

A cleric that is neither evil nor good may choose either cure or cause spells to spontaneously cast, and that's what they get.
It doesn't, by itself, make a cleric good or evil.
This is really only for spontaneous casting.
The whole "Doom is evil" thing I would have to check, but Doom isn't listed as evil, is it? It may be necromantic, but if it doesn't have the evil descriptor, it isn't evil. That only really applies to good characters anyway, if I recall, but I could see the DM restricting you if you choose the heal path (makes neutral clerics a bit better if they are free to pick from both sides simply because they were neutral).

I hope you aren't one of the "I'm chaotic neutral so I can be evil if I want to" crowd, but your DM seems way off base here. Unless they are keeping an alignment drift chart (which I doubt from your description... Sounds like they are playing alignment as a straight-jacket), then I see no reason why you would be limited or why they are trying to sew discontent within the party by trying to play you off against the barbarian.

But then again, I'm not your DM, so my opinion doesn't amount to too much.
GenocideMachine
03-06-06, 07:29 AM I doubt both of you are wrong, but if anyone else could say something that'd be awesome. I plan to print this out so my dm can see the error of his ways.
DracoPhoenix
03-06-06, 07:42 AM slight logic issue:

any necromancy = evil - fine, dms call
raising dead, ressurection etc = necromancy (even if it's listed as conj. (healing) it's still dealing with death :))
therefore raising your friends = evil

edit:
Though, most likely he has a problem with spontaneous casting & thinks its over powered.
So just ask him where it says "evil" in Doom's spell discriptor :)
Or to read the PHB again, regarding neutral clerics & spont. casting.
Friss_Kervrask
03-06-06, 07:13 PM Where the hell it is said that inflict is evil and healing is good. An evil cleric can use healing spells and good folks can use inflict spells. But for the case of spontaneous casting I don't know very much.
ressurrector
03-06-06, 07:36 PM Somehow I find that even evil clerics tend to have healing available, usually because an evil cleric is more likely to get stabbed in the back or be the target of an assasination.

As far as casting inflict spells as a good/neutral cleric....Why would you want to? Inflict spells suck.

As far as casting [evil] spells as a good/neutral cleric...It depends on the spell.
A good cleric should NOT go around creating undead, or similar things.
There are, however, usefull necromancy spells that are not necessarily evil.
Gentle Repose, for one.
CzarGarrett
03-07-06, 10:45 AM I'll have to say the DM is wrong in this case.

Depending on how strict alignment is (or if the character is exalted/a paladin), I see nothing wrong with being able to cast [Evil] spells when good.

What you've got here is a Neutral character who, like nearly every other cleric in existance, can cast any spell available to them.
pres_man
03-07-06, 11:30 AM My DM has read the "Spontaneous casting" section in the Players Handbook and has ruled that my Cleric could not cast any sort of cure/heal spell if I was evil. I chose chaotic neutral as my alignment and chose heal spells as my spontaneous choice (he said if I chose harm spells I wouldn't be able to cast any heal spell) and now he says I cannot even use Doom because it's "eviiiil" and is opposed to my beliefs/alignment.
He can rule this way. The ruling is incorrect, but as long as you game with him, he can make that incorrect ruling.

This is due to me choosing heal spells for spontaneous casting and doom is of the necromancy school.
Since your character is CN, the only spells he is officially restricted from casting is spells with the [Lawful] descriptor. There is a difference between spontaneous casting and regular casting. You character, assuming the actual real rules, could prepare all inflict spells, but then convert them to cures later. What you can't do as a CN character is one day spontaneously cast cures and the next spontaneously cast inflicts (unless you change deities perhaps).

He even goes as far as to say my Cleric wouldn't be OK with our chaotic neutral barbarian choosing the god of slaughter as his god because I'm so "good".
You're not good you are CN, thus you wouldn't have any real issue except you might find the idea of slaughter a bit distasteful (this is indicated by the fact that you find it easier to cure then to inflict).

Is he wrong? Should I be able to cast harm spells if I was good and vice versa?
Well he is incorrect and in the end merely gimping his own NPCs (oops now evil cleric can't use wand of cure moderate wounds). As if he is wrong, well he's the DM, he's only wrong if the group rises up against him.
GenocideMachine
03-07-06, 03:00 PM I was only chaotic neutral because he specifically said I couldn't cast any sort of healing spell if I was evil. I wished to worship Bane but not being able to cast healing spells at all would gimp me. I don't mind not being about to spontaneously cast healing spells, I'd prefer the flavour of being an evil cleric and being able to control the undead. Thanks again, everyone.
Nom
03-07-06, 06:19 PM Following answer is "by the rules". Your DM may want to run things differently; this is a matter for negotiation with your group.

Healing spells do not have the "Good" descriptor. Inflict spells (or most other damaging spells) do not have the "Evil" descriptor. Therefore they are non-aligned and can be used freely by clerics of any alignment.

However, Good deities (and clerics) are biased towards positive energy. Presumably they find it easier to work with. Similarly, Evil deities (and clerics) are biased towards negative energy. Thus, Good clerics can spontaneously substitute "cure" spells in place of other spells and Evil clerics can spontaneously substitute "inflict" spells in place of other spells. Similarly, Good clerics turn/destroy undead while Evil clerics rebuke/dominate undead.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GenocideMachine 03-05-06, 10:31 PM	My DM has read the "Spontaneous casting" section in the Players Handbook and has ruled that my Cleric could not cast any sort of cure/heal spell if I was evil. I chose chaotic neutral as my alignment and chose heal spells as my spontaneous choice (he said if I chose harm spells I wouldn't be able to cast any heal spell) and now he says I cannot even use Doom because it's "eviiiil" and is opposed to my beliefs/alignment. This is due to me choosing heal spells for spontaneous casting and doom is of the necromancy school. He even goes as far as to say my Cleric wouldn't be OK with our chaotic neutral barbarian choosing the god of slaughter as his god because I'm so "good". Is he wrong? Should I be able to cast harm spells if I was good and vice versa?
Archmage_Vall 03-05-06, 10:44 PM	what the? I could see his point if you were actually a good-aligned cleric who worships a good deity, but a neutral cleric shouldn't have any good/evil alignment problems. If you selected cure spells to spontaneously cast, that doens't mean you can't cast inflict. It just means you have to prepare them, like any other non-cure spell.
Mitchell 03-05-06, 10:44 PM	Well, it could be said that the DM is never wrong. I won't say it, but it could be said. :) A cleric that is neither evil nor good may choose either cure or cause spells to spontaneously cast, and that's what they get. It doesn't, by itself, make a cleric good or evil. This is really only for spontaneous casting. The whole "Doom is evil" thing I would have to check, but Doom isn't listed as evil, is it? It may be necromantic, but if it doesn't have the evil descriptor, it isn't evil. That only really applies to good characters anyway, if I recall, but I could see the DM restricting you if you choose the heal path (makes neutral clerics a bit better if they are free to pick from both sides simply because they were neutral). I hope you aren't one of the "I'm chaotic neutral so I can be evil if I want to" crowd, but your DM seems way off base here. Unless they are keeping an alignment drift chart (which I doubt from your description... Sounds like they are playing alignment as a straight-jacket), then I see no reason why you would be limited or why they are trying to sew discontent within the party by trying to play you off against the barbarian. But then again, I'm not your DM, so my opinion doesn't amount to too much.
GenocideMachine 03-06-06, 07:29 AM	I doubt both of you are wrong, but if anyone else could say something that'd be awesome. I plan to print this out so my dm can see the error of his ways.
DracoPhoenix 03-06-06, 07:42 AM	slight logic issue: any necromancy = evil - fine, dms call raising dead, ressurection etc = necromancy (even if it's listed as conj. (healing) it's still dealing with death :)) therefore raising your friends = evil edit: Though, most likely he has a problem with spontaneous casting & thinks its over powered. So just ask him where it says "evil" in Doom's spell discriptor :) Or to read the PHB again, regarding neutral clerics & spont. casting.
Friss_Kervrask 03-06-06, 07:13 PM	Where the hell it is said that inflict is evil and healing is good. An evil cleric can use healing spells and good folks can use inflict spells. But for the case of spontaneous casting I don't know very much.
ressurrector 03-06-06, 07:36 PM	Somehow I find that even evil clerics tend to have healing available, usually because an evil cleric is more likely to get stabbed in the back or be the target of an assasination. As far as casting inflict spells as a good/neutral cleric....Why would you want to? Inflict spells suck. As far as casting [evil] spells as a good/neutral cleric...It depends on the spell. A good cleric should NOT go around creating undead, or similar things. There are, however, usefull necromancy spells that are not necessarily evil. Gentle Repose, for one.
CzarGarrett 03-07-06, 10:45 AM	I'll have to say the DM is wrong in this case. Depending on how strict alignment is (or if the character is exalted/a paladin), I see nothing wrong with being able to cast [Evil] spells when good. What you've got here is a Neutral character who, like nearly every other cleric in existance, can cast any spell available to them.
pres_man 03-07-06, 11:30 AM	My DM has read the "Spontaneous casting" section in the Players Handbook and has ruled that my Cleric could not cast any sort of cure/heal spell if I was evil. I chose chaotic neutral as my alignment and chose heal spells as my spontaneous choice (he said if I chose harm spells I wouldn't be able to cast any heal spell) and now he says I cannot even use Doom because it's "eviiiil" and is opposed to my beliefs/alignment. He can rule this way. The ruling is incorrect, but as long as you game with him, he can make that incorrect ruling. This is due to me choosing heal spells for spontaneous casting and doom is of the necromancy school. Since your character is CN, the only spells he is officially restricted from casting is spells with the [Lawful] descriptor. There is a difference between spontaneous casting and regular casting. You character, assuming the actual real rules, could prepare all inflict spells, but then convert them to cures later. What you can't do as a CN character is one day spontaneously cast cures and the next spontaneously cast inflicts (unless you change deities perhaps). He even goes as far as to say my Cleric wouldn't be OK with our chaotic neutral barbarian choosing the god of slaughter as his god because I'm so "good". You're not good you are CN, thus you wouldn't have any real issue except you might find the idea of slaughter a bit distasteful (this is indicated by the fact that you find it easier to cure then to inflict). Is he wrong? Should I be able to cast harm spells if I was good and vice versa? Well he is incorrect and in the end merely gimping his own NPCs (oops now evil cleric can't use wand of cure moderate wounds). As if he is wrong, well he's the DM, he's only wrong if the group rises up against him.
GenocideMachine 03-07-06, 03:00 PM	I was only chaotic neutral because he specifically said I couldn't cast any sort of healing spell if I was evil. I wished to worship Bane but not being able to cast healing spells at all would gimp me. I don't mind not being about to spontaneously cast healing spells, I'd prefer the flavour of being an evil cleric and being able to control the undead. Thanks again, everyone.
Nom 03-07-06, 06:19 PM	Following answer is "by the rules". Your DM may want to run things differently; this is a matter for negotiation with your group. Healing spells do not have the "Good" descriptor. Inflict spells (or most other damaging spells) do not have the "Evil" descriptor. Therefore they are non-aligned and can be used freely by clerics of any alignment. However, Good deities (and clerics) are biased towards positive energy. Presumably they find it easier to work with. Similarly, Evil deities (and clerics) are biased towards negative energy. Thus, Good clerics can spontaneously substitute "cure" spells in place of other spells and Evil clerics can spontaneously substitute "inflict" spells in place of other spells. Similarly, Good clerics turn/destroy undead while Evil clerics rebuke/dominate undead.