Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Priest_of_Shaundakul 10-13-06, 01:33 PM	The situation is me (Lawful Good Cleric of Bahamut) and a fellow player (Neutral Good Cleric of Pelor) are in a bit of a bind on how to handle a situation that deals with a Blue Dragon exploiting people on the edge of a desert settlement. Jason(my Cleric) rightfully want to slay Ahulimaxstraio prior to freeing the people, while Josef(the other Cleric) wants to negotiate peacefully with it. One would argue my ranks in Knowledge Arcana give me a reasoning edge, but he's come through for the party before (albeit on a non-draconic issue). So it's not looking well thus far. And to further tension, one player sides with my decision, another sides with him. How do we resolve this?
LCD2YOU 10-13-06, 01:48 PM	If the Blue Dragon has been pillaging, killing, generally being a Blue or any other color Chromatic Dragon, then kill him. Treating them as a "misunderstood" and pathetic being is Polly-annish in the extreme. As I play my DnD world a bit more "black and white", where Evil mean Evil and not a shade of nasty, offing a Chromatic Dragon is an honorable and heroic thing indeed. For an evil creature to be "reformed", I say they need to make the first move. To "reform" evil at the other end of superior fire power is nothing more than forcing and putting your will on to them. So, kill it in the "heroic tradition" of "Good vs Evil" and such.
AesirRaven 10-13-06, 03:40 PM	Why not give Josef his chance to negotiate with Ahulimaxstraio? Meanwhile, Jason can use that time to gather force for his rightful crusade. If Josef succeeds, then all is good, and the crusade isn't necessary. If Josef fails, Jason is ready to reply to the dragon with force. And if the dragon makes it look like Josef was successful, but then turns on everyone, Jason will again be ready. Letting Josef attempt his diplomacy is the good thing to do (give peace a chance, and so forth). Using that time to build a force to fight the dragon is the lawful thing to do (it's a chromatic dragon, and chromatic dragons are usually evil, therefore this one likely will continue to be evil and should be opposed).
Derren S. 10-13-06, 04:15 PM	Unless you DM changed the alignment system in your game you are right (and it fits your character). Blue dragons are a spawn of Tiamat and totally evil and for the good of all have to be destroyed.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-14-06, 10:43 AM	Rent/buy a dragon-slaying weapon/spell of your choice. Use the diplomacy (really, we all know it is going to fail) as a distraction.
LCD2YOU 10-14-06, 01:16 PM	Why not give Josef his chance to negotiate with Ahulimaxstraio? Meanwhile, Jason can use that time to gather force for his rightful crusade. If Josef succeeds, then all is good, and the crusade isn't necessary. If Josef fails, Jason is ready to reply to the dragon with force. And if the dragon makes it look like Josef was successful, but then turns on everyone, Jason will again be ready. Letting Josef attempt his diplomacy is the good thing to do (give peace a chance, and so forth). Using that time to build a force to fight the dragon is the lawful thing to do (it's a chromatic dragon, and chromatic dragons are usually evil, therefore this one likely will continue to be evil and should be opposed).I really like this idea. Let the pacifist go off and try to make peace. If they make peace with enemies that don't require capitulation and being enslaved, down trodden, etc., on your part, that's great. On the other hand, if they are eaten, enslaved, forced to do hideous things or even worse for their new master, who cares?
AesirRaven 10-14-06, 01:47 PM	I really like this idea. Let the pacifist go off and try to make peace. If they make peace with enemies that don't require capitulation and being enslaved, down trodden, etc., on your part, that's great. I detect sarcasm here. :rolleyes: Think of it this way. The cleric of Pelor obviously needs, from the POV of the cleric of Bahamut, an education in how iredeemably evil a blue dragon is. What better firsthand education than trying to debate with the creature? Obviously no amount of preaching, moralizing or warning is going to sway Josef's beliefs -- so let him go and deal with the beast one on one. Meantime, while the dragon is distracted with the "foolish" mortal, Jacob can round up the troops and prepare for a fight. If Josef fails, as Jacob "knows" he will, then so be it; Josef can rest in the hands of Pelor, or return to the party convinced that Jacob was right. If Josef succeeds, the alliance between the clerics is strengthened because Jacob allowed Josef to follow is heart and his beliefs and good came of it. (My personal opinion: Using wanton slaughter, even of evil, as a regular tool to handle every problem isn't "good". It's evil. So far every other suggestion in this thread has been, at best, neutral on the good-evil moral axis, and both of these characters are supposed to be good. That doesn't mean stupid, but it also doesn't mean death is the only answer. They aren't obliged to let the dragon live if it's a ravening, murdering beast, but two things are evident: one, the dragon is "exploiting", not slaughtering, people, and two, what if the DM has decided to throw in a plot boobytrap and this Ahulimaxstraio can be redeemed, or diverted without a fight? Nobody in the party dies, everybody gets XP for "defeating" the threat and the PCs get a reputation for being badasses who can drive off a blue dragon without even having to unsheath swords.) On the other hand, if they are eaten, enslaved, forced to do hideous things or even worse for their new master, who cares? And you have yourself a shiny new plot twist and a night full of excitement. This is a good thing.
albinomonkeyking 10-14-06, 04:11 PM	Killing isn't evil AesirRaven, even if it is done en masse. That said and done, as a DM unless I specifically set up the dragon to be negotiated with, (and he is evil, I wouldn't) he is meant to fight. Attempting to speak with him is going to go very poorly. The key with dragons is not to just hit, hit, breath weapon, bite, dragons are incredibly intelligent. If one of them approached to attempt to speak with him he would probably use all his best guile to get the person on his side, (seeming like he isn't the villian) or, use this situation to prepare for the oncoming battle from the LG cleric of Bahamut, spells, traps, ambush, whatnot. Regardless of what method he chose, the end result would be using NG cleric as a)ally, b)bait, c)simply removing him for the upcoming fight. Also, you are a cleric of bahamut, I would rule you know about dragons quite a lot more than Pelor's boy, seeing as how dragons are kind of your thing. The group should follow your decision, (I would also rule you probably know of the tricks it would attempt to use, trying to speak with him would be devastating) That is just my insight, hope it helped, good luck.
Cifer 10-14-06, 04:23 PM	That said and done, as a DM unless I specifically set up the dragon to be negotiated with, (and he is evil, I wouldn't) he is meant to fight. Attempting to speak with him is going to go very poorly. The key with dragons is not to just hit, hit, breath weapon, bite, dragons are incredibly intelligent. If one of them approached to attempt to speak with him he would probably use all his best guile to get the person on his side, (seeming like he isn't the villian) or, use this situation to prepare for the oncoming battle from the LG cleric of Bahamut, spells, traps, ambush, whatnot. Regardless of what method he chose, the end result would be using NG cleric as a)ally, b)bait, c)simply removing him for the upcoming fight. Er... sorry? A group's alternative solutions are automatically going to fail because you did not "set up a dragon to be negotiated with"? Also, you are a cleric of bahamut, I would rule you know about dragons quite a lot more than Pelor's boy, seeing as how dragons are kind of your thing. The group should follow your decision, (I would also rule you probably know of the tricks it would attempt to use, trying to speak with him would be devastating) Why should the group do anything someone "rules"? (My personal opinion: Using wanton slaughter, even of evil, as a regular tool to handle every problem isn't "good". It's evil. So far every other suggestion in this thread has been, at best, neutral on the good-evil moral axis, and both of these characters are supposed to be good. That doesn't mean stupid, but it also doesn't mean death is the only answer. They aren't obliged to let the dragon live if it's a ravening, murdering beast, but two things are evident: one, the dragon is "exploiting", not slaughtering, people, and two, what if the DM has decided to throw in a plot boobytrap and this Ahulimaxstraio can be redeemed, or diverted without a fight? Nobody in the party dies, everybody gets XP for "defeating" the threat and the PCs get a reputation for being badasses who can drive off a blue dragon without even having to unsheath swords.) Here we have the difference between the paladin and the cleric. A paladin has to act in a non-evil way every single time. A cleric merely has to act in his god's interest and when all is said and done retain an alignment within one step of his deity, which is not changed by single actions. Bahamut's portfolio practically includes "engaging chromatic dragons with extreme prejudice". Talking to the dragon is an option, but most certainly not the only one.
LCD2YOU 10-14-06, 04:38 PM	I detect sarcasm here. :rolleyes: Actually not as much as you may think. See, I am totally in favor of trying peace first. I'm just in favor of sending pacifists out, little if any military or offensive backup, first to establish first contact. That way if the others are peaceful, fantastic. If the others are warlike and hostilities due ensue, then there is no way of saying that we didn't try to find a peaceful way to meet them first.
albinomonkeyking 10-14-06, 04:43 PM	I was afriad there might be a misunderstanding with my wording, so let me clarify. Er... sorry? A group's alternative solutions are automatically going to fail because you did not "set up a dragon to be negotiated with"? It isn't going to fail because I am the sort of DM to say 'my way or the highway', however, players have to accept that there are sometimes not the solutions they would desire. I have attempted to diplomacy myself out of many situations (With a result of diplomacy in the 80's) however, sometimes the titan who is in the air fending off two monks isn't that concerned with you, who simply shout 'Parley!'. Talking works.......sometimes. By all means try if you like, it may work, but if it were my encounter he wouldn't let a human tell him what to do, or change his mind, he would use him for his own twisted methods. If that isn't how you would run it, sorry. Why should the group do anything someone "rules"? I think this was another misunderstanding. What I was saying is a cleric of bahamut would, (most likely) have more understanding of dragons, he would even know the tactics an evil one would most likely use. Hell, he could even have a specific historical event he read about where a paladin attempted to speak to the great wyrm Marignol and the consequences of the actions.
Cifer 10-14-06, 09:13 PM	Talking works.......sometimes. By all means try if you like, it may work, but if it were my encounter he wouldn't let a human tell him what to do, or change his mind, he would use him for his own twisted methods. If that isn't how you would run it, sorry. Since we are already quoting films, I'd say it's all a matter of leverage. Dragons become old and mighty the same way lichs and other longliving beings do: They know when it's best to run, especially since most evil dragons only have few chances at getting resurrected since they are not exactly popular. When the cleric of Bahamut is willing to attack, this probably means he has the means to do so and be successful. IIRC, blues are relatively intelligent, meaning they usually are capable of banishing their reptile pride onto the backseat and let survival instinct drive. I think this was another misunderstanding. What I was saying is a cleric of bahamut would, (most likely) have more understanding of dragons, he would even know the tactics an evil one would most likely use. Hell, he could even have a specific historical event he read about where a paladin attempted to speak to the great wyrm Marignol and the consequences of the actions. In this, I agree with you (as long as the character has the relevant knowledge skills).
Kradlo 10-15-06, 09:51 AM	Characters of good alignment can and will often disagree about how to deal with evil. What we have here is a pacifist approach, that of the cleric of Pelor, which is perfectly in keeping with the tenets of his faith. It is quite in character for a cleric of Pelor to seek to negotiate a peaceful solution, even when faced with a creature of surpassing power and malign nature. After all, one of the most noble acts is to bring redemption to the wicked. On the other hand, it is also perfectly within the tenets of a cleric of Bahamut to argue that the blue dragon, being evil and an enemy of his faith, should be treated as a vile threat that should be destroyed. The cleric of Bahamut may point out that attempting to negotiate with evil is doomed to failure (a viewpoint that he might have). Evil is often dishonorable, and rarely abides by a pact unless it is convenient to do so. The cleric of Pelor may still hold hope that he can find a peaceful solution to the problem. In the end, the cleric of Pelor may choose to approach the dragon alone to attempt to negotiate with it. In the meanwhile, the cleric of Bahamut will be readying an attack when the negotations fail. Sounds like excellent material for roleplaying.
allenchan 10-15-06, 05:06 PM	I agree that a cleric of bahamut would let the other try to negoiate first. Simply because it might prevent more unnecessary deaths. A cleric of bahamut shouldn't be willing to get his whole group killed just because its evil. That's stupid, not good.
Cifer 10-15-06, 05:40 PM	I agree that a cleric of bahamut would let the other try to negoiate first. Simply because it might prevent more unnecessary deaths. A cleric of bahamut shouldn't be willing to get his whole group killed just because its evil. That's stupid, not good. This again is something I disagree upon. Killing evil dragons who don't show very big signs of reformation is always considered a good thing by Bahamut. It is purely a decision of the specific cleric whether he thinks peaceful contact with the beast is tolerable - the hardliners in the church will probably not do it, however appropriate it may be in the situation at hand.
Meshakhad 10-21-06, 11:48 PM	AesirRaven's plan sounded good to me. Try negotiation first, then if that fails, dispatch the troops. The only catch is that Josef must not mention the army being prepared to slay the dragon. Sword-point conversion is evil and ineffective. If the dragon does change his ways, he must do it in his heart. I would also try and find ways to increase Josef's chances of success. Get him the best cloak of charisma money can buy. If you have a fast-talking rogue or bard, send them as well to provide a circumstance bonus. Have Josef cast Vision of Heaven on the dragon.
OneSidedDice 10-22-06, 02:23 AM	Alignment debates aside, I think the best thing to do is back Josef up. Even though you're LG and your god vehemently opposes chromatic dragons, it would be a great triumph to turn such a monolithically evil creature to your cause. Such an occurrence is extremely unlikely, however, so you should talk things over with the rest of the party. Tell Josef you're willing to support him in his negotiations and accept the result as long as the dragon is legitimately willing to reform, with one caveat: Josef needs to be willing to back you up if the negotiations turn sour. Take the whole party and go in with the intent to deal with the dragon, one way or another. If you can negotiate with it, great, but don't be stupid. Expecting a powerful evil creature to recant isn't realistic, and your group needs to take the appropriate precautions (long-lasting buffs and energy resistance spells, for example) before approaching the dragon. "A kind word and a gun will get you farther than a kind word alone." (I think that was Al Capone).
Derren S. 10-22-06, 03:09 AM	As I understand it the goal is not to make the dragon good (which is rather impossible) but to negotiate a truce with it and that is definatly the wrong way.
Far_Traveler 10-22-06, 02:08 PM	"A kind word and a gun will get you farther than a kind word alone." (I think that was Al Capone). It was Al Capone, but it was "You can get farther with a kind word and a gun, then with just a kind word"
Salla 10-23-06, 02:05 AM	As I understand it the goal is not to make the dragon good (which is rather impossible) but to negotiate a truce with it and that is definatly the wrong way. "Not impossible, merely improbable." -- Captain Jack Sparrow, while we're bandying about movie quotes. ;) The MM entry specifies that even 'always X' alignments have their exceptions, though they are exceptionally rare. This may well be one of those exceptions ... you don't know. Any free-willed creature is capable of changing its ways, if properly motivated. Finding out the dragon's motivation is key to enticing it to reformation. It's not likely to work, at all, so you have to be prepared for that outcome as well. Electrical Resistance all around. "You were right, Master. The negotiations were short." -- Obi-Wan Kenobi.
bashman 10-23-06, 03:44 AM	As a cleric of Bahumut, you are OBLIGATED to try reasoning with it. Yes, Bahumut is the god of all good dragons. Yes, he does not like evil dragons, and his followers must sometimes kill them. HOWEVER, to Bahumut, Redemption is a very important thing. Evil dragons, who have strayed from the path of righteousness must be given a CHANCE to turn the right way. As a cleric of Bahumut, you don't want to KILL ALL EVIL DRAGONS-- you want to save their souls! Yes, this might mean more role-playing and less xp, but that is what Bahumut is about. If you wanted to go around killing things in the name of your diety, and asking questions later, St. Cuthbert might have been a better way to go...
Matthew77 10-23-06, 07:28 AM	. The only catch is that Josef must not mention the army being prepared to slay the dragon. Sword-point conversion is evil and ineffective. If the dragon does change his ways, he must do it in his heart. I agree with the majority that negotiation first, with attacking as a backup plan is the way to go. However, my thinking ran along exactly the opposite tack as Meshakhad's. I would use the fact that the army is being assembled as the key point in my proposals to the Dragon. Josef: Dragon, we must reach an agreement that frees the people of this land from your attacks. Dragon: Why should I do anything you say, weakling? Josef: Because this is your last chance to flee before the army storms your lair. Sort of a "Walk softly and carry a big stick" idea. I don't think reaching a "Truce" or "Redeeming" the Dragon is possible. I think the best you can hope for with negotiation is to get the Dragon to go elsewhere, or at least pause in his attacks long enough to buy time to prepare.
Cifer 10-23-06, 08:53 AM	, to Bahumut, Redemption is a very important thing. Is there a source for this? My CD didn't say a word about it. If there isn't, I think it's fair to assume there are hardliners (only a dead chromatic is a good chromatic) as well as liberals (give them a chance) in the church - after all, Bahamut has lawful neutral as well as neutral good clerics.
Jon of the North 10-23-06, 08:24 PM	What terms is the Pelor priest offering? I mean, what does he want the dragon to do (leave, be peaceful, convert) and what is he offering (gold, the dragon's life, 72 virgins) I agree that you should try to negotiate. However, here are some possible problems to keep in mind. 1. Chamberlin/ Hitler (Sic on both) Peace agreement is reached; everyone signs nice pieces of paper. 2 weeks later: :shocked: the dragon is attacking! Josef :uh-huh: But, but I have a piece of paper. 2. Relocation: is (probably) not a real solution unless he agrees to go far away from occupied lands. Otherwise it's just passing the buck. Dragon leaves. 2 weeks later the heroes arrive at a new town: Citizen: yeah, about a week and a half ago this blue Dragon arrived and started raiding the area. You: OK, Josef, now we do it my way. 3. Bluff. :dragon: Oh, I swear to renounce my evil ways and be a good boy (DM rolls bluff check) If PCs buy it, wait for them to leave and then punish town for trying to get help. But I still say try to negotiate. It probably won't work, but it's a Good thing to try.