Cleric of balance. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric of balance. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
criticalstriker
05-13-07, 02:49 PM I wanted to know if this idea would be fair or not. I want to be a cleric of balance (I'm being a champion of a cause). I wanted to give up all of the spells clerics get automatically, in exchange for 5-7 domains. I wanted to take Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Creation, Destruction, and Balance. The way I saw it was, that I was losing a significant amount of spells to choose from, in return for having the domain abilities and such. My DM says that she doesn't know if it would be balanced or not, so, now I'm asking you guys :D
Kopana
05-13-07, 03:17 PM I'm the DM :) I just don't trust myself to make this work, I'm open to suggestions though. Cheers.
Arkidisey
05-13-07, 03:21 PM Its actually a good Idea. He's actually just limiting his spells for a character concept thats actually a pretty good idea. We'd talked about it earlier and I liked it. It seems fair, as long as what we were talking about is true. (Domain spells aren't stronger than normal ones)
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 03:29 PM Where are balance and creation from? Without looking at those I can't rightly determine.

However looking at it now and ignoring those two. It's way too weak and you can't heal.

Edit: Found Creation in complete divine.
criticalstriker
05-13-07, 03:31 PM Its from spell compendium. And I know I'll be weak, the point isn't really to make a healer or a CoDzilla, it's to make a character who believes he exists for the soul purpose of keeping "balance"
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 03:40 PM Its from spell compendium. And I know I'll be weak, the point isn't really to make a healer or a CoDzilla, it's to make a character who believes he exists for the soul purpose of keeping "balance"

If you want to create a character that's absolutely useless to your group, congratulations, you've discovered a good method.

If you were worried about it being overpowered, it's absolutely not.

Have you actually calculated what this'll give you? Because it's nothing. I'm not talking about a character class that's unpowered next to CoDzilla, I'm talking about a character that's underpowered next to the monk and fighter.

Until 17th level, then you can make people's heads explode.

I don't recommend this class, but if your heart is set on it, then by all means, have fun. Don't worried about it being overpowered, it's not.

Note: The class is underpowered with these particular domains, if you switch to other domains it could possibly become overpowered depending upon the domain.
Kopana
05-13-07, 03:45 PM Maybe I'll give him two more Domains, Strength and War, that way he can defend himself.
Evil DM Mk3
05-13-07, 03:47 PM Whilst I apriciate you don't want to be a bandaid, one of the reasons clerics are powerful is becasue they can heal. You need to heal. The party needs hp.
criticalstriker
05-13-07, 03:48 PM Well my DM has bumped up the number of domains from 7 to 11, (she is letting me choose two more and having me take strength and war) I would like to add the axis of Death and Life. Does any one know where a Life domain is?
JulesCARV
05-13-07, 03:48 PM I think there's a cleric variant called the "Evangelist" from Dragon 311 (NOT Complete Divine, and a base class cleric-variant, not prestige) that is based on spontaneously casting from a bunch of domains. Starts with 2 domains, gets an extra domain at every level divisable by 5. It's a bit like a domain-heavy favored soul, or something. Loses turn undead, I think.

Update: the Life domain is found in the Eberron Compaign Setting. I'm not sure about where else.
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 03:51 PM Maybe I'll give him two more Domains, Strength and War, that way he can defend himself.

Or he could just play a cleric and pick balance and creation domains. What's wrong with that? A cleric with the balance domain is about as balancy as you can get.

It's your game and I don't want to tell you how to enjoy it. But I seriously don't see the need for this new class and I don't think that mechanically it's a good idea. If you disagree that's fine and it's your right, but my opinion is to just go with a standard cleric.

You don't sound very confident about taking a class apart and putting it back together again, so maybe you should just stick with the basics.

Oh incidentally, it's not normally allowed for a cleric to take law and chaos or good and evil as domains together. You can't take an alignment domain unless you have that alignment yourself.
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 03:53 PM Well my DM has bumped up the number of domains from 7 to 11

And now we're unbalanced.

Seriously, and I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you guys really know what you're doing with class-building so I'd recommend sticking with the basic classes for now.
Kopana
05-13-07, 03:54 PM I'm not the one picking the damn thing apart... he came to me with this absurd concept of a Cleric with no spells and a jillion domains and it took a few minutes of me being all "wut teh eff?" before I let him post it here and get some critique on it.

So please PLEASE don't lump me in the same category as him.. I don't like it at all myself, I think it's downright retarded, but I do want my players to have fun.
Arkidisey
05-13-07, 03:56 PM If you want to create a character that's absolutely useless to your group, congratulations, you've discovered a good method.

If you were worried about it being overpowered, it's absolutely not.

Have you actually calculated what this'll give you? Because it's nothing. I'm not talking about a character class that's unpowered next to CoDzilla, I'm talking about a character that's underpowered next to the monk and fighter.

Until 17th level, then you can make people's heads explode.

I don't recommend this class, but if your heart is set on it, then by all means, have fun. Don't worried about it being overpowered, it's not.

Note: The class is underpowered with these particular domains, if you switch to other domains it could possibly become overpowered depending upon the domain.

You seem very ignorant to the fact that he JUST said he wasn't looking to be strong. At all. It's an RP character. Your pretty dim witted, because you used the reference of fighters and monks being underpowered. Thats just stupid. Man...
criticalstriker
05-13-07, 03:57 PM I don't think your being rude at all, but I would disagree with you. I'm not really trying to make an entire new class. But one that specializes in domains instead of spells. Btw, thats not to say I think that 11 domains is balanced. I haven't played, nor seen, this played. And I don't really like to make calls like that without having some one run it in my game, or at least a game I'm in.
Evil DM Mk3
05-13-07, 03:58 PM There is nothing wrong with the cleric as it is. So long as the player does not refuse to heal. I have come across quite a few players that did not want to be beandaid clerics and so refused to do any healing as the illogical conclusion. I am sure one of the reasons clerics are so powerful is that is they werent then, after you divert power into healing, they are no longer intersting to play.
Optimized_Commoner
05-13-07, 04:18 PM Sorry everyone. I'm tired and posting without thinking, reading over peoples replies it's clear I've offended people and that's not what I meant. Sorry I didn't want to start a fight or anything.

I'll try to be more constructive from now on with my criticism.

Arkidisey: I appreciate I've been a little rude, but calling me dim-witted isn't helping matters. On an unrelated topic, it's "You're" when you want to abbreviate you are, not your. It helps to use correct grammar when you want to insult someone else's intelligence.

Critical Striker: The problem is that domains are spells (or a collection of 9 of them anyway), by the time you're up to 11 domains you have 99 spells and a large collection of granted powers. The main reason I thought it was underpowered before is the fact that the good, lawful, evil and chaotic granted powers are quite weak (adding +1 caster level to spells of that descriptor). Once you have a large collection of powers and spells (as you do with 11 domains) it begins to get excessive and can quickly become overpowered.

While playing a class in a game certainly helps to understand its power level and the way it'll work, it isn't necessarily required. After you write a few and see how they work you begin to get a feel for how a class is going to work just from reading it. Naturally this isn't always right and you get a much better feel from playing a class over many hundreds of hours. My gut feeling looking at this situation is that you're on the wrong track. I can't guarantee I'm right, but I don't think the domain-cleric will work very well without seriously overhauling the character class.

Plus I've played an Ardent, the psionic variation which focuses on domains, so I've had some experience with the concept.

Kopana: Sorry, I didn't mean to "lump you" into a category.
Kopana
05-13-07, 04:35 PM Bleh, he's a great DM in the other game, the items he makes are downright fun and cause of much sadness for me when I don't get any or lose them or something. He's good with items, but not with classes that he makes up on the spot. :P
draco1119
05-14-07, 04:23 AM How's this for Domain possibilties:

Alignment: Good and Evil; or Law and Chaos

Creation, Destruction, Death, and Healing

Balance and Strength or War

Ends up giving him 8 Domains, Healing capacity, and the ability to defend himself.
RainerNader
05-14-07, 01:46 PM My suggestion is to look at the Sovereign Speaker in the Faiths of Eberron book, and base something off that.
Templetroll
05-14-07, 02:02 PM So does a Cleric of Balance act against his party if they succeed in defeating several Evil things or groups?

:confused:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
05-14-07, 02:20 PM I think there's a cleric variant called the "Evangelist" from Dragon 311 (NOT Complete Divine, and a base class cleric-variant, not prestige) that is based on spontaneously casting from a bunch of domains. Starts with 2 domains, gets an extra domain at every level divisable by 5. It's a bit like a domain-heavy favored soul, or something. Loses turn undead, I think.

Update: the Life domain is found in the Eberron Compaign Setting. I'm not sure about where else.

I'm going to second this opinion. You want a lot of domains. This variant gives a lot of domains. You could design your own option, and if you want to, do that. I won't stop you. But using this variant already balances it for you. You can check it out on crystalkeep as well. I like that it's a spontaneous caster.
Max Octavious Xavier
05-14-07, 04:25 PM So does a Cleric of Balance act against his party if they succeed in defeating several Evil things or groups?

:confused:
I knew a guy who played a 1st edition druid (had to be NN in 1st edition) who would kill other pc's if the group got unbalanced. I no longer play with him.

My suggestion is to stage the domains in over several levels.
level
1- 3 domains (balance + 2 more(must be balanced))
allow them to both turn/cure or rebuke/inflict
3- +1 domain
5- +1 domain (must be balance to 1 at 3rd)
7- turn/cure and rebuke/inflict
another domain at levels 9 and 11(must balance)
13- divine or metamagic feat
another domain at levels 15 and 17(must balance)
19- divine or metamagic feat
domains = law, chaos, good, evil, destruction, creation, death, healing, protection, war
Stormbrand
05-14-07, 07:11 PM Are there not prestige class which focus on gaining extra domains?

Start of as Cleric with the Balance domain (and one other), then earn the rest in-game.
criticalstriker
05-14-07, 09:16 PM Not a class, no, but I do think there is a feat that allows you to take one extra domain.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-14-07, 09:41 PM The Sovereign Speaker mentioned above is all about adding extra domains, albeit at the cost of some casting progression.
criticalstriker
05-14-07, 09:54 PM That class sounds good, I'll look into it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
criticalstriker 05-13-07, 02:49 PM	I wanted to know if this idea would be fair or not. I want to be a cleric of balance (I'm being a champion of a cause). I wanted to give up all of the spells clerics get automatically, in exchange for 5-7 domains. I wanted to take Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, Creation, Destruction, and Balance. The way I saw it was, that I was losing a significant amount of spells to choose from, in return for having the domain abilities and such. My DM says that she doesn't know if it would be balanced or not, so, now I'm asking you guys :D
Kopana 05-13-07, 03:17 PM	I'm the DM :) I just don't trust myself to make this work, I'm open to suggestions though. Cheers.
Arkidisey 05-13-07, 03:21 PM	Its actually a good Idea. He's actually just limiting his spells for a character concept thats actually a pretty good idea. We'd talked about it earlier and I liked it. It seems fair, as long as what we were talking about is true. (Domain spells aren't stronger than normal ones)
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 03:29 PM	Where are balance and creation from? Without looking at those I can't rightly determine. However looking at it now and ignoring those two. It's way too weak and you can't heal. Edit: Found Creation in complete divine.
criticalstriker 05-13-07, 03:31 PM	Its from spell compendium. And I know I'll be weak, the point isn't really to make a healer or a CoDzilla, it's to make a character who believes he exists for the soul purpose of keeping "balance"
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 03:40 PM	Its from spell compendium. And I know I'll be weak, the point isn't really to make a healer or a CoDzilla, it's to make a character who believes he exists for the soul purpose of keeping "balance" If you want to create a character that's absolutely useless to your group, congratulations, you've discovered a good method. If you were worried about it being overpowered, it's absolutely not. Have you actually calculated what this'll give you? Because it's nothing. I'm not talking about a character class that's unpowered next to CoDzilla, I'm talking about a character that's underpowered next to the monk and fighter. Until 17th level, then you can make people's heads explode. I don't recommend this class, but if your heart is set on it, then by all means, have fun. Don't worried about it being overpowered, it's not. Note: The class is underpowered with these particular domains, if you switch to other domains it could possibly become overpowered depending upon the domain.
Kopana 05-13-07, 03:45 PM	Maybe I'll give him two more Domains, Strength and War, that way he can defend himself.
Evil DM Mk3 05-13-07, 03:47 PM	Whilst I apriciate you don't want to be a bandaid, one of the reasons clerics are powerful is becasue they can heal. You need to heal. The party needs hp.
criticalstriker 05-13-07, 03:48 PM	Well my DM has bumped up the number of domains from 7 to 11, (she is letting me choose two more and having me take strength and war) I would like to add the axis of Death and Life. Does any one know where a Life domain is?
JulesCARV 05-13-07, 03:48 PM	I think there's a cleric variant called the "Evangelist" from Dragon 311 (NOT Complete Divine, and a base class cleric-variant, not prestige) that is based on spontaneously casting from a bunch of domains. Starts with 2 domains, gets an extra domain at every level divisable by 5. It's a bit like a domain-heavy favored soul, or something. Loses turn undead, I think. Update: the Life domain is found in the Eberron Compaign Setting. I'm not sure about where else.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 03:51 PM	Maybe I'll give him two more Domains, Strength and War, that way he can defend himself. Or he could just play a cleric and pick balance and creation domains. What's wrong with that? A cleric with the balance domain is about as balancy as you can get. It's your game and I don't want to tell you how to enjoy it. But I seriously don't see the need for this new class and I don't think that mechanically it's a good idea. If you disagree that's fine and it's your right, but my opinion is to just go with a standard cleric. You don't sound very confident about taking a class apart and putting it back together again, so maybe you should just stick with the basics. Oh incidentally, it's not normally allowed for a cleric to take law and chaos or good and evil as domains together. You can't take an alignment domain unless you have that alignment yourself.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 03:53 PM	Well my DM has bumped up the number of domains from 7 to 11 And now we're unbalanced. Seriously, and I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you guys really know what you're doing with class-building so I'd recommend sticking with the basic classes for now.
Kopana 05-13-07, 03:54 PM	I'm not the one picking the damn thing apart... he came to me with this absurd concept of a Cleric with no spells and a jillion domains and it took a few minutes of me being all "wut teh eff?" before I let him post it here and get some critique on it. So please PLEASE don't lump me in the same category as him.. I don't like it at all myself, I think it's downright retarded, but I do want my players to have fun.
Arkidisey 05-13-07, 03:56 PM	If you want to create a character that's absolutely useless to your group, congratulations, you've discovered a good method. If you were worried about it being overpowered, it's absolutely not. Have you actually calculated what this'll give you? Because it's nothing. I'm not talking about a character class that's unpowered next to CoDzilla, I'm talking about a character that's underpowered next to the monk and fighter. Until 17th level, then you can make people's heads explode. I don't recommend this class, but if your heart is set on it, then by all means, have fun. Don't worried about it being overpowered, it's not. Note: The class is underpowered with these particular domains, if you switch to other domains it could possibly become overpowered depending upon the domain. You seem very ignorant to the fact that he JUST said he wasn't looking to be strong. At all. It's an RP character. Your pretty dim witted, because you used the reference of fighters and monks being underpowered. Thats just stupid. Man...
criticalstriker 05-13-07, 03:57 PM	I don't think your being rude at all, but I would disagree with you. I'm not really trying to make an entire new class. But one that specializes in domains instead of spells. Btw, thats not to say I think that 11 domains is balanced. I haven't played, nor seen, this played. And I don't really like to make calls like that without having some one run it in my game, or at least a game I'm in.
Evil DM Mk3 05-13-07, 03:58 PM	There is nothing wrong with the cleric as it is. So long as the player does not refuse to heal. I have come across quite a few players that did not want to be beandaid clerics and so refused to do any healing as the illogical conclusion. I am sure one of the reasons clerics are so powerful is that is they werent then, after you divert power into healing, they are no longer intersting to play.
Optimized_Commoner 05-13-07, 04:18 PM	Sorry everyone. I'm tired and posting without thinking, reading over peoples replies it's clear I've offended people and that's not what I meant. Sorry I didn't want to start a fight or anything. I'll try to be more constructive from now on with my criticism. Arkidisey: I appreciate I've been a little rude, but calling me dim-witted isn't helping matters. On an unrelated topic, it's "You're" when you want to abbreviate you are, not your. It helps to use correct grammar when you want to insult someone else's intelligence. Critical Striker: The problem is that domains are spells (or a collection of 9 of them anyway), by the time you're up to 11 domains you have 99 spells and a large collection of granted powers. The main reason I thought it was underpowered before is the fact that the good, lawful, evil and chaotic granted powers are quite weak (adding +1 caster level to spells of that descriptor). Once you have a large collection of powers and spells (as you do with 11 domains) it begins to get excessive and can quickly become overpowered. While playing a class in a game certainly helps to understand its power level and the way it'll work, it isn't necessarily required. After you write a few and see how they work you begin to get a feel for how a class is going to work just from reading it. Naturally this isn't always right and you get a much better feel from playing a class over many hundreds of hours. My gut feeling looking at this situation is that you're on the wrong track. I can't guarantee I'm right, but I don't think the domain-cleric will work very well without seriously overhauling the character class. Plus I've played an Ardent, the psionic variation which focuses on domains, so I've had some experience with the concept. Kopana: Sorry, I didn't mean to "lump you" into a category.
Kopana 05-13-07, 04:35 PM	Bleh, he's a great DM in the other game, the items he makes are downright fun and cause of much sadness for me when I don't get any or lose them or something. He's good with items, but not with classes that he makes up on the spot. :P
draco1119 05-14-07, 04:23 AM	How's this for Domain possibilties: Alignment: Good and Evil; or Law and Chaos Creation, Destruction, Death, and Healing Balance and Strength or War Ends up giving him 8 Domains, Healing capacity, and the ability to defend himself.
RainerNader 05-14-07, 01:46 PM	My suggestion is to look at the Sovereign Speaker in the Faiths of Eberron book, and base something off that.
Templetroll 05-14-07, 02:02 PM	So does a Cleric of Balance act against his party if they succeed in defeating several Evil things or groups? :confused:
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 05-14-07, 02:20 PM	I think there's a cleric variant called the "Evangelist" from Dragon 311 (NOT Complete Divine, and a base class cleric-variant, not prestige) that is based on spontaneously casting from a bunch of domains. Starts with 2 domains, gets an extra domain at every level divisable by 5. It's a bit like a domain-heavy favored soul, or something. Loses turn undead, I think. Update: the Life domain is found in the Eberron Compaign Setting. I'm not sure about where else. I'm going to second this opinion. You want a lot of domains. This variant gives a lot of domains. You could design your own option, and if you want to, do that. I won't stop you. But using this variant already balances it for you. You can check it out on crystalkeep as well. I like that it's a spontaneous caster.
Max Octavious Xavier 05-14-07, 04:25 PM	So does a Cleric of Balance act against his party if they succeed in defeating several Evil things or groups? :confused: I knew a guy who played a 1st edition druid (had to be NN in 1st edition) who would kill other pc's if the group got unbalanced. I no longer play with him. My suggestion is to stage the domains in over several levels. level 1- 3 domains (balance + 2 more(must be balanced)) allow them to both turn/cure or rebuke/inflict 3- +1 domain 5- +1 domain (must be balance to 1 at 3rd) 7- turn/cure and rebuke/inflict another domain at levels 9 and 11(must balance) 13- divine or metamagic feat another domain at levels 15 and 17(must balance) 19- divine or metamagic feat domains = law, chaos, good, evil, destruction, creation, death, healing, protection, war
Stormbrand 05-14-07, 07:11 PM	Are there not prestige class which focus on gaining extra domains? Start of as Cleric with the Balance domain (and one other), then earn the rest in-game.
criticalstriker 05-14-07, 09:16 PM	Not a class, no, but I do think there is a feat that allows you to take one extra domain.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-14-07, 09:41 PM	The Sovereign Speaker mentioned above is all about adding extra domains, albeit at the cost of some casting progression.
criticalstriker 05-14-07, 09:54 PM	That class sounds good, I'll look into it.