Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silveus 09-27-06, 10:22 PM	i am a lawful evil cleric of Hextor and there is a lawful good paladin of Heironeous in my party. also most of the other people in the party are also evil and a few also worship hextor, however i am probably the strongest and the group leader. my question is, would attacking the paladin violate my lawfulness? i don't realy want to kill him, maybe just force him to convert. and if he does convert can he keep being lawful good? (if any one wonders i can easily kill the paladin so thats not a problem)
PiedmonSama 09-27-06, 10:27 PM	1. The Paladin could only stay Lawful Good and worship Hextor in the most warped of campaigns. If he chose to convert, it would definitely lose him his Paladinhood in any normal campaign. 2. If the majority of the party is evil aligned/worships Hextor, the Paladin is out of place and both his player and the DM are irresponsible for letting it happen. 3. Attacking the Paladin for doing nothing other than being a Paladin would violate your alignment. In most campaigns, Hextor teaches to destroy those who stand in your path but spare those who submit to you. If the Paladin is not actively opposing you, you should leave him alone.
Silveus 09-27-06, 10:58 PM	the paladin is passivly competing with me for being the unoficial head of the group. so in a way his is opposing me. but i don't want to kill his character, hense the convert him. also the party being mostly evil was a complet accident. i am lawful evil because i wanted to worship hextor. the monk needed to be lawful and evil so he could be an assasin the dwarf wanted to be a dwarven defender and evil. and the sorcerer wants to role play a evil tyrant mage. i don't think the dm even knew that most of us were evil. also is the paladin capable of attacking me without violating his lawfulness?
Reversefigure4 09-27-06, 11:00 PM	A party full of evil Hextor worshippers... and a Paladin of Heironeous??? Unless you have some seriously different religions from the standard, these two concepts should be total opposites. The Paladin hunts down and destroys such parties! No, there is no way for a Lawful Good Paladin to worship an Evil god, unless you want to have him fall and become a Blackguard instead. But then he's no longer a Paladin.
Board_Rider 09-27-06, 11:05 PM	The Paladin PLAYER should create a new PC. Of course he doesn't have to if he wants to disregard the whole "a paladin never knowingly associates with evil" thing. As far as outright attacking your PC for no reason...I wouldn't allow it as your DM unless your PC was acting downright eviiiil. The guy should just become either a) A new PC b) A fallen Paladin, possibly using the UA variant for the tyrant paladin, looking towards Blackguard possibly.
KnaveofClubs 09-27-06, 11:06 PM	Yes, you both can kill eachother without violating your lawfulnesses. And as for dealing with the paladin, instead of killing him just try to corrupt him. Find a way to corrupt him and perhaps have him take blackguard afterwards. If not, well he can always reroll.
PhaedrusXY 09-27-06, 11:39 PM	What level are you all? If the palladin is 11+, he can immediately convert up to 10 of his palladin levels into blackguard. That should provide a pretty good temptation for the player. You should try to corrupt the character into your way of thinking. The way that the Emporer-to-be corrupted Anakin into becoming Darth Vader would be one approach. Convince him that most people are too stupid to be trusted to govern themselves, and that only through strong shows of force and discipline can they be "helped". :devil: As already pointed out, he has technically already violated his code of conduct as a palladin for even associating with the rest of your party, and should be a fallen palladin. Once he feels that his deity has forsaken him, it should be easier for you to turn him to the dark side. :P
Thunder Dragonbane 09-28-06, 12:53 AM	The GM should always know the alignment of every PC at the table. How else is he going to decide if what the PC's do violates their stated alignments. This situation is completly his fault. Never have a Paladin in a evil campain. The Paladin is obviously in the wrong game. He needs to roll up a new character. If you decided to attack him, or he you. Unless you far out rank his PC, the outcome might be far closer than your post indicates. Is the player just so oblivious that he did not notice the evil holy symbol on your neck?
Silveus 09-28-06, 06:53 AM	1 i don't have it infront of me but blackgaurd has requirments that i know he doesn't meet. 2 the group was forced together to be in a tournament. so before this he didn't know us and now there isn't realy anything he can do aobut it. if he tries to leave the torunamentnet we loose so if he tried we would all kill him 3 i do act pretty evil i already tricked one of the pc's into being my slave (this isn't ruining that character in anyway other than the fact she has to listen to me) 4 we are all level 2 but we started in a game that gives low exp so we have been around for a while 5 i looked at his sheet and i can easily kill him, even with out spells. and even if he rolled all 20's and i rolled all 1's i have back up if i need it 6 my holy symbol is hidden under my plate armor
Millennium 09-28-06, 07:13 AM	my question is, would attacking the paladin violate my lawfulness? For some clerics it might, but we're talking about Hextor, archenemy of Heironeous. It could easily be argued that attacking him is more in line with your alignment than just letting him hang around. ...and if he does convert can he keep being lawful good? It's debatable, but either way Hextor doesn't sponsor paladins, so he would have to renounce his class anyway if he wanted to keep advancing. However, if you can bring about a switch in the paladin's alignment, a quick planar ally spell would be all you'd need to let him satisfy the "peaceful contact with an Evil outsider" requirement for the Blackguard class.
terrainmonkey 09-28-06, 08:46 AM	okay, dock that DM a day's pay for nappin' on the job. first off, he shouldn't have let ANY OF YOU play evil. now i know i'm gonna get flamed for that, but it is a common argument among many DMs i know that don't allow it under any circumstances. second, your DM should have known everything about each player's alignment, stats, etc., before even starting the game. that's part of the job of being a DM. now i don't know how long he's been playing, but he's obviously fallen short of the bar so far. Third, even given the fact that most of you are evil, didn't you as players have a confab about what you wanted to play in the new campaign? it would be a simple as this: Player 1: "Hey, i want to play a paladin of heironious. i think it will be fun!" Player 2: "Well, i think i want to play a cleric of a war god. who should i pick?" P1: "How about heironious? then we could be brothers from the same convent." P2: "Nahh. i think i'll be a cleric of hextor. that might be fun." Player 3 pipes in: "Hey, that might be cool. how about if i play an evil assassin monk from the scarlet brotherhood?" P2: "Yeah, that'd be fun. then we can gang up on the paladin and kill him if he gets out of line." P1: "uhhh. guys? umm.... i am in the room, you know." Player 4: "Hey, i know, i'll be a dwarf, an evil dwarf fighter that wants to be a dwarven defender, because that's not a contradiction." P1: "Why all the evil. you guys did hear that i wanted to be a paladin right?" All other players: "yeah, but that's okay because if you start any crap we'll just kill you and take your stuff, or corrupt you and make you a blackguard. so shut the hell up already, roll up your character, and prepare to be enlsaved by our unmitigated evil. bwah ha ha haaaa." this seems really selfish to the paladin player. and if i were he, i would do 1 of 2 things: 1. wait until you are all sleeping, slit your throats, lose his paladin powers, and then take all your stuff. then go to the nearest chapel, confess what he did and get an atonement. problem solved. then, the DM tells you to make up new characters that are non evil. and this time, DM does his friggin' job and looks over the character sheets to make sure this time. 2. leave the party, suicide his character, and make up one that follows party harmony if you guys actually want to continue on the path of evil. this is the easy way out. whatever happens, attacking and killing another PC is always a bad thing. ALWAYS!!! as a DM i do not allow this kind of thing in my games as it always leads to bad blood between players. it is immature high school antics, and should not be done under any circumstances. as far as i'm concerned, this DM should lose his credentials, and has absolutely no right to sit behind the screen for allowing this abomination of a game to exist.
Silveus 09-28-06, 03:30 PM	the paladin made his character last. all of us had already made our evil characters. in the paladins defense i am not sure if he knows exactly what he did by picking that class and god. i for one (can't speak for the other members in the group) don't want to screw him over but his character is completly out of place.
Boris 09-28-06, 03:58 PM	first off, he shouldn't have let ANY OF YOU play evil. now i know i'm gonna get flamed for that, but it is a common argument among many DMs i know that don't allow it under any circumstances. While I do know that many players enjoy certain alignments more than others, saying that he shouldn't have let any of them play evil is narrowminded. Maybe the players you have played with where not good at evil. Many players out there can actually play evil well. I know I enjoy good and evil games. Saying a DM was in the wrong is kinda way out there. whatever happens, attacking and killing another PC is always a bad thing. ALWAYS!!! as a DM i do not allow this kind of thing in my games as it always leads to bad blood between players. it is immature high school antics, and should not be done under any circumstances. If your players have to be controled to that extent then I guess you have to break from the role playing and step in. Some people do not take it out of the game. It is not always a bad thing as well. I can certainly see how many people would think killing any PC is bad, but from a ROLE PLAYING perspective, it isn't. If you are role playing, like you should be in this game, you would do what your character would do. If you would kill some one for stealing from you, you should most certainly kill a PC if they steal from you. Not doing so could easily be considered metagaming. Like I said, I can understand you having to jump in if your players can not keep in game stuff out of real life stuff, but I guess I just have a good group. We do not have to worry about that. I have killed 4 PC's with my evil character. Why? Because he was always thought his characters (yes it was all the same guys) were better than mine, he would mock my EVIL duergar barbarian, cast spells on him, yell and such. We play in an open game where the DM has as little "control" as possible. So my character being evil and insulted did what he would do to ANY person who did that to him, PC or NPC. As far as the pallie in the group with evil chars, that pallie isnt doing his job too well, nor is the DM. I think he should save that char for another game and roll up another that will get along with the party. That or do what was said earlier, kill them, or attempt too and find some people he would get along with =D
Callista 09-28-06, 05:08 PM	Is the Paladin player a newbie, or a newbie to the Paladin class? He might've picked it unknowingly... because I really can't see any reason for him to play a Paladin once he knew you guys were going to be Evil. (Did he know?) I think the two of you shoud have an out-of-game discussion. Tell him your character's intentions: A cleric of Hextor will definitely want to convert or otherwise nullify a Paladin. Remind him that, technically, he's already violated his code of conduct (there could be an exception for not being able to do anything about it--effectively, he's the party's captive right now). He's got two choices: Convert to Evil, or stay Good and face the consequences. Eventually, your party is going to do something Evil, and the Paladin will be bound to oppose you. Result: Showdown, one dead Paladin, and possibly one or two others. If you two talk it out, you may be able to find a nice, dramatic way to solve the problem. With cooperation, you should be able to RP a very believable conversion: He's already hanging out with you; maybe, eventually, your philosophy starts to rub off on him... Or else, you can find a way to give the Paladin a heroic death, and bring in another character. A good way to do this would be, as I said, the confrontation after the Paladin's found you're doing something he can't stomach. Since you're level 2 and he's a Paladin, he'll probably be one of the stronger members of the party; so you're looking at a good chance of a character death when this happens. If you want to offset this, talk to your DM; ask whether your character, having just killed a Paladin, could get a boon from Hextor--the resurrection of any dead comrades, or yourself. (This shouldn't be too hard to accomplish; chances are an allied cleric, higher-level of course, could help you out. Since you're Evil there will likely be a price to pay for it; but that's just part of the plot, really.) The one thing you SHOULDN'T do is to let this situation go on until either you and the Paladin player, not just the characters, are at odds, or else until you're both working so hard at ignoring that the other is of a dramatically opposed morality that it's downright silly. Talk to the player, maybe talk to your DM. There IS a solution to this problem; but you'll have to work to gether to find it.
Dolomite 09-28-06, 07:32 PM	Long as the Dm has no problems and you guys are willing to work with the guy, let him be then. Treat it like a test from your god, see if you can convert him, but use tact. Also go easy since you guys was put together under tournament circumstances.
CradleofLife 09-28-06, 08:26 PM	Why is a paladin in a party of evil characters? Either you're a liar or that paladin has not read the PhB. THat paladin would attack you without hesitation if he were to retain his paladinhood.
Usiris 09-28-06, 09:09 PM	Hextor and Heironeous worshippers can only mix under very special circumstances. (Canonfire.com's Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom, for example.) And odds are your party won't meet those special circumstances. It's been my experience that evil characters must constantly remind everyone of how evil they are. Then, they wonder why some paladins are apt to smite first and ask questions later. I tried playing the "I have to get along these guys for the greater good" with a LG Cleric of Heironeous I had. It's a legitimate angle but not a very fun one. My character had little to no impact on the other party (LE Hextor worshiper, 2 greedy CNs, and 1 insane CN). They did whatever they wanted and left the goody goody to his designs. Also my DM openly said to me that he would railroad the plot to prevent any interparty bloodshed simply because he didn't want the headache. In the end I just went LE and joined Hextor because I was getting sick of being left out but didn't want to be railroaded either. I justified it by saying that he saw Heironeous as extremely impotent (which in this game was true) and he wanted to do things his way. Sorry if I got a bit ranty, but it's always best that everyone talk about this before character generation. If he wants, he could become a Paladin of Tyranny in Hextor's church if his character goes that way.
Silveus 09-28-06, 10:23 PM	1 he is a noob 2 the majority of the party being evil was just a fluke. there was no driving force behind it, it just happened. and no one realy new that the party was going to be like this. i designed my cleric to me pure offense and i already said why the others joined the evil path. 3 since the paladin is a noob and there are 3 other noobs in the party i have sorta become a coach for 2 of them, the paladin included. he made his character and then i looked at it and said "this is a horrible idea" but he was dead set on keeping it. and it will be sorta wierd coaching him on how to deal with a evil cleric when i am the evil cleric. 4 i don't think he knows he has a code of conduct. 5 alot of people have stated that since he is a paladin he could kill us. i want to make it clear that my character alone should be able to easily kill him solo. i outclass him in almost every way and have more experince. (i rolled realy well and spent alot of time designing my character, both stat wise and background/personality wise) 6 i role play my character very well and i don't comit overly evil acts in broad daylight, but the others do. and altho i don't kill random people its obvious to any one who watches for a while that i am the most evil in the group. 7 my original question was, can i attack him and possibly kill him without violating my lawfulness?
Usiris 09-28-06, 10:30 PM	Yes but it would have to be after the tournament. He's still on your side and you can bide your time. If your god says that's the right thing to do (and Hextor does) it's right in line with your law.
Silveus 09-28-06, 10:37 PM	just to be sure..... if i wait until we are, say going into a inn, and i bash him in the back of the head with my shield, grapple him into a wal and threaten to shove my heavy pick through his neck unless he converts. this is ok?
Reversefigure4 09-29-06, 02:42 AM	I'm sure the noob player will love having his character brutally killed off by the rest of the party for reasons he doesn't understand. That'll give him a great impression of your gaming group and DnD in general. Instead, and I know this is a wild idea, TALK TO THE PLAYER. Explain that a Paladin doesn't fit into the group in the slightest, and that he needs to make an evil character to fit in with the group dynamics. Introduce the new character with a bit of evil bonding over a friendly group Paladin slaughter.
Andorxor 09-29-06, 04:00 AM	You should be ashamed for making a powered up character in a noobparty.
Silveus 09-29-06, 06:55 AM	FYI the 2-3 noobs joined the game after the experianced players already made there characters. i don't see why i should dumb down my character now that people that are new joined. the super dwarf fight, the monk/ assassain, and the evil druid all made super characters also i have told him that his paladin can't coexist with my cleric in general and that the rest of the party wont realy work with it too. he didn't seem to care. i don't think he understands the full scope of the problem. also, good characters could fit into the game since my main purpose is to hunt down and kill other evil people. so we could exist together. its just that paladin can't. and i already said i don't want to kill him, i would perfer to convert him
terrainmonkey 09-29-06, 07:18 AM	FYI the 2-3 noobs joined the game after the experianced players already made there characters. i don't see why i should dumb down my character now that people that are new joined. the super dwarf fight, the monk/ assassain, and the evil druid all made super characters also i have told him that his paladin can't coexist with my cleric in general and that the rest of the party wont realy work with it too. he didn't seem to care. i don't think he understands the full scope of the problem. also, good characters could fit into the game since my main purpose is to hunt down and kill other evil people. so we could exist together. its just that paladin can't. and i already said i don't want to kill him, i would perfer to convert him see here's the thing. you complain that he is the problem, but from what i see, it is YOU that is completely unwilling to bend here. it seems you are dead set on playing this character no matter what, even at the cost of party dynamics. if you were in my group, you would be the one leaving the party, not him. basically you would have one chance to change YOUR character, or find the door. i believe you are being completely unreasonable, and cheapening this guy's fun.
Usiris 09-29-06, 12:16 PM	He's asking because he's trying to balance a logical story angle (Heironians and Hextorites DO in fact hate each other and fight quite often) with the fact that it means a PC will wind up getting killed. Mistakes were made so it's better to fix them early on. I would say to go for the whole conversion angle. It's a good RP opportunity, plus it doesn't force him to make a new character. He just has to change his template from Paladin of Honor to Paladin of Tyranny.
Silveus 09-29-06, 03:40 PM	see here's the thing. you complain that he is the problem, but from what i see, it is YOU that is completely unwilling to bend here. it seems you are dead set on playing this character no matter what, even at the cost of party dynamics. if you were in my group, you would be the one leaving the party, not him. basically you would have one chance to change YOUR character, or find the door. i believe you are being completely unreasonable, and cheapening this guy's fun. i AM dead set on playing my character. i spent lots of time desinging him and making a story about him while the paladin spent a whole 5 minutes on his character. my character isn't the only problem there are other evil people in the party, all of which were there before the paladin. also i am not saying he is ruining the game in anyway. its that our characters can't coexist. i don't realy mind the fact that he is there. his paladin can be my ace in the hole. i am concerned that he will attack me. plus in any descision his view is radicaly different from anyone elses. i don't want to spend 10 minutes arguing over breaking into a building to escape the thugs trying to kill us. also it wont realy be fun for him when we all bunk up in a temple to my god and he is forced to go sleep in the gutter out of sight. and you might want to consider reading every thing before you post. if you have low readying comprehension you might want to read it again because you completly misunderstood everything
Heahengel 09-30-06, 12:22 AM	Terrainmonkey: He is here asking for advice on how to resolve the problem, with an emphasis on not ruining the character in question (convert instead of kill). He was there first, and his character fit well with the rest of the group until the new player came in and insisted on playing a paladin. Its not just him, but four members of the party that would have to change characters to fit with the paladin (although he is the most opposite). The paladin is the one being disruptive to (this particular) party, not Silveus. I think he is handling it well. No evil is a perfectly reasonable rule of thumb, and I've been in plenty of campaigns that used it and were a lot of fun. I've also been in campagns screwed up by evil characters. I see where you are coming from on that. But I've also played evil characters in a group of mixed alignment, and it worked out fine. My general rule is that if I feel that my character would kill or harm another PC, I talk to both the player involved and the DM openly about it before I do anyhting about it (after a session or by email or something). I won't attack or kill said character unless they are ok with it (interparty conflict has to be handled carefully, or it can definitely explode). Instead I try to brainstorm a resolution with them. This has worked well for me. Of course if the DM doesn't want to get involved (the attitude I assume for this DM), and the other player doesn't do anything about what caused the issue in the first place, and won't work with me to create a way to coexist, I'm not sure what to do. Silveus: My first advice is to talk to the DM to tell him about your opinion on the situation (just incase he doesn't already know) and what you are thinking of doing. Also, learn what he will allow you to do. A lot of DMs won't allow you to fight in party. If that is the case, there is nothing you can do except to go on as you are. The group will be evil and the Paladin will somehow magically exist without his god becoming angry at him. As for whether your lawful alignment would stop you from forcibly converting or otherwise attacking the paladin, I really think thats up to your DM. There are a lot of different opinions about the alignment system. To me, no it wouldn't. Actually, I would think it would be inapropriate for you to do anything but convert or kill him eventually (using him as a pawn for the rest of the time). But to me, I would have to hear something really convincing from the paladin for him not to try to kill or convert you immediately and retain his paladinhood. (Edit: And if I had been DM, either I wouldn't have wanted the evil characters in the first place, or I wouldn't have allowed a Paladin) By the way, how many are in the party?
Silveus 09-30-06, 10:44 AM	Part of my problem is that i am more knowladgeable than my Dm. we went through the first sesion without the ranger knowing she can ad her dex score to her attack roll with her long bow. the reason why i am trying to find all this stuff out is because the dm doens't know. i am not sure how the DM would feel if i did attack the paladin but even if he did think it was a bad idea i could sorta over-rule him if i gave reasonable exscuses. my main question was the alighnment thing. my group has wildly different views on alighnment. chaotic evil must randomly attack every one they see vs chaotic evil can live in a town and not kill and eat people. in regards to lawfull evil, i believe that i can break laws only if it helps my main goal and i am positive that i will get away with it. i manipulate laws to get around them and screw others. some of the party thinks that lawful evil means that i can't break any laws ever, i would die before breaking laws. and the party is......(ht ones at the top are the stronger ones) LE Cleric OF Hextor Wood Elf (War and Destruction domains) STR 20, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 13 Master work Heavy Pick, SPiked HEavy shield, Spiked fullplate. LE Dwarf Fighter Str 18 Dex 15 Con 19 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 11 2 Master worked Waraxes (duel wield) Master work chain mail NE Gray Elf Druid Str 8 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 19 Wis 17 Cha 16 Master worked Hand Xbow Hide Armor LE Human Monk (worships Hextor) Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 14 Various monk weapons CG Elf Ranger Str 12 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 17 Cha 16 Master work Comp Long Bow Masterwork Studded Leather LG Paladin of Heironeous Str 14 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 15 Master worked Heavy Flail, Master worked breastplate NN Wild Elf Sorc Str 14 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 18 Master Work Comp Long Bow. Master worked Chain Shirt
Heahengel 09-30-06, 03:07 PM	Sure, a LE character could believe that it was never ok to break laws. You can certainly argue that that is the ideal of the alignment. But not every LE character would think that. Also, worst comes to worst, you alignment shifts to NE (which it shouldn't from one act, but whatever). That shouldn't affect your character much. Do what you think your character would do, not what you think is the ideal for his alignment, unless your character is meant to be that ideal. I would argue that an LE cleric of Hextor might well feel that it would be betraying his god to leave a paladin alone. To me a lawful character has some belief in the importance of order, or has a personal code that he won't break (except under extreme alignment changing duress). But that doesn't mean he has to follow the law. What about an LE assassin who follows his guild master fervently. He follows the guild law to the letter. But he assassinates people - that is certainly illegal in the outside world. Also, you should try not to run over ytour DM, even if you can. I think the best course of action is to talk to him and then support his decision, backing him up rather than tearing him down (as long as you feel ok with abiding that decision). It sounds like he needs some support.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 09-30-06, 03:45 PM	A paladin may never knowingly associate with evil characters. Maybe the paladin's just oblivious/naive. That's entirely possible in a character. I mean look to Ledgermain (http://ledgermaincomics.com/). The elf paladin hasn't violated his code of conduct because he doesn't realize his sword is evil, or that he's working with two thieves. Naive paladins work. They can be funny in a way.
Tarvok 09-30-06, 07:40 PM	Another option to the paladin re-rolling would be for a different player to re-roll as a Lawful-Neutral cleric of St. Cuthbert or Wee Jas or something, to serve as the peacemaker of the group.
Reversefigure4 10-01-06, 07:02 PM	A paladin may never knowingly associate with evil characters. Maybe the paladin's just oblivious/naive. That's entirely possible in a character. I mean look to Ledgermain (http://ledgermaincomics.com/). The elf paladin hasn't violated his code of conduct because he doesn't realize his sword is evil, or that he's working with two thieves. Naive paladins work. They can be funny in a way. Except that every time he detects evil, half his party are going to light up like a Christmas tree.
Silveus 10-04-06, 10:56 PM	ok so i talked to the dm. he descided to let me handle it howerver i want. i told him i would forcably convert the cleric or kill him. the dm talked to the player so he wouldn't be blindsided when i did attack him. he told him he would not be able to work with the party and to expect something. i then went and talked to the paladin. he was rude and told me that i could go and reroll my character. so we are in a arena and in between waves of monsters i attacked him. the monk and dwarf fighter helped me by grappling the ranger and sorc so they didn't interfere. long story short, in the middle of a giant arena i got a paladin of Heironeous to convert to hextor.
FeceMan 10-04-06, 11:23 PM	What level are you all? If the palladin is 11+, he can immediately convert up to 10 of his palladin levels into blackguard. That should provide a pretty good temptation for the player. Meh, the bonuses provided are better, methinks.
Heahengel 10-05-06, 03:12 AM	ok so i talked to the dm. he descided to let me handle it howerver i want. i told him i would forcably convert the cleric or kill him. the dm talked to the player so he wouldn't be blindsided when i did attack him. he told him he would not be able to work with the party and to expect something. i then went and talked to the paladin. he was rude and told me that i could go and reroll my character. so we are in a arena and in between waves of monsters i attacked him. the monk and dwarf fighter helped me by grappling the ranger and sorc so they didn't interfere. long story short, in the middle of a giant arena i got a paladin of Heironeous to convert to hextor. Sounds good. By the way, when you said you went and talked to the paladin - was the paladin rude to you in charactrer, or was the player rude? Hopefully it resolved well out of character as well as in.
Silveus 10-05-06, 06:57 AM	he was rude out of character. he was realy attached to that paladin. after i converted him he went to attack me but the dm said that had to wait since some of the other players had already started to leave.
mudbunny 10-05-06, 11:41 AM	So in other words: you forced a new D&D player to get his character to do something that he didn't want his character to do; forced his character to change classes, that he didn't want to do; and started some in-group, RL conflict. Well done.
Heahengel 10-05-06, 12:20 PM	To me the new player started it, the DM failed to deal with it, and Silveus ended it. (or maybe not ended it yet). Its not a great situation, but Silveus shouldn't be solely responsible for resolving it. As long as this is handled with some respect for him out of character, this should work out decently - he will learn a valuable lesson about working with the rest of the group, and he will find some character that interests him. If things went as reported here, and the new player ends up really angry, then he seems a bit immature to me. That said, I hope that he is given some opportunity to play the paladin relatively soon. Either on a throw off side campaign, or in the next campaign.
Silveus 10-05-06, 03:27 PM	So in other words: you forced a new D&D player to get his character to do something that he didn't want his character to do; forced his character to change classes, that he didn't want to do; and started some in-group, RL conflict. Well done. well thats taking stuff out of context. sure i forced him to change classes and so something he didn't want to. the alternative was to play my character in a way i shouldn't. not to mention he was playing his character completly wrong. and i did try to talk to him and the dm an neither of them helped or offered to meet me half way. and if the paladin wants to hate me in real life thats cool for him. personaly i could care less that he is angry because he acted like a 4 year old and refused to be part of the solution. if he acted in a mature way i could have tried to come to a solution that we boht liked, however thats the Dm's job so i don't see why i am at fault here. and on a side note i had chedder cheese fries with me and he asked if he could have one, and then he ate them all. so he can be a little angry about his paladin since i went hungry
mudbunny 10-05-06, 03:43 PM	Only partially out of context, but I apologize for making it sound worse than it was. From my point of view, you, as the experienced player, have the responsibility to explain to the newer people why something would (or would not) work well with the party. Yes, the DM has some responsibility in this case as well, but the fact that he didn't try/tried and failed does not remove from you the obligation to do so. It is pretty clear to me that, from the start, you knew that this would be a bad idea. Perhaps the DM thought that you (all the players in the group, not just you) could handle it. He was apparantly wrong. Meh, I hope that it works out. Serious question: Can you force someone to convert if they really don't want to?
Silveus 10-05-06, 03:57 PM	on many occasions i did try to explain to the new player why it wouldn't work and advised him to not play a paladin. the party has no rouge type character and at the time lacked a mage(other than my self). he refused to play anything other than a paladin. at the time i was busy helping the druid make her character and helping the monk understand his abbilities. i was not able to focus directly on the paladin. later on i forced the dm to talk to him with me and he still refused to change. since at this time the party was already set up as mostly evil it seemed dumb for all of us to make new characters escpecialy since most of us had long term plans for our characters, like the monk wanting to be an assassian. also every time i spoke to the paladin he acted like a jerk, eating my cheese fries for instance. personaly i don't see any other way this could have turned out and i tried to make the best of it. and to convert him i offered him a choice. he converts and takes one for the team. of i kill him and then kill tons of inocent people and leave his holy symbols on their bodies. during this he tried to out grapple me and my armor spikes sent him into negative hp so i had to heal him.
Thunder Dragonbane 10-06-06, 08:34 AM	I have said this on this thread allready. There is no reason the DM should have let the player have a Paladin in a evil game. I am dissapointed in you for forcing the issue, because of being a experianced player. That means squat, it never should have come up in the first place. Now you have a angry noobie with a bad 1st character ever experiance. BRAVO!! Way to go.:nonono:
terrainmonkey 10-06-06, 08:48 AM	ok give it up with the cheese fries already. let it go. i'll echo the sentiment of the last guy, and continue with my stance that it is you who is the problem. so what if you are the most experienced guy in the group. that means you have MORE of a Responsibility to see that the entire group has fun, not just you and your selfish evil character. the game is about Group dynamics, and teamwork, not forcing others to do what you want and for your own beneifit. i don't care if i had a great idea for a character, if one of the guys decided he wanted to play a paladin and he was new, i would change over my character to make sure the entire GROUP had fun. i'll just wait to play the one i worked on before the game. 5 hours spent on a character? a little much don't you think? oh, and any true paladin would have gone to the sword instead of convert, especially one that worshipped your diamaterically opposed god. good work on angering the noob. bravo indeed sir. bravo!:rolleyes:
Heahengel 10-06-06, 11:58 AM	How would you handle this (to me) equivalent situation: A new campaign begins and your players build their characters. One plays a paladin, another an LG monk, and a third is a NG sorceror. There is also a LN fighter. Later a new player shows up and insists on playing a CE barbarian who goes on slaughtering rampages frequently. I wouldn't allow the barbarian, and I would guess you wouldn't either (you said that you didn't allow evil characters IIRC). If the barbarian was allowed to exist, I would let him know that he has to accept the consequences. One of which would almost surely be the paladin smiting him as soon as he does something really evil, or possibly before when he threatens to do so. Are you really advocating that a new player should be able to insist on playing one character that he has his mind set on, forcing four other players to change their characters? What kind of message would that send to him - letting him walk ove the game and warp it to what he wants to do over the group consensus? In most situations like these, the player with the evil character is causing the problem, but here it is the opposite, IMO. I agree that the situation wasn't handled well, but I don't think Silveus handled it badly at all (again assuming things happened as presented to us). The DM should never have allowed the paladin in the first place, or should have mediated a compromise (or in an RP heavy game, or some such, sat back and watched the fun everyone has RPing this situation). If he really wanted everyone to be able to play their characters, he could have forbidden in-party conflict and said that no-one would 'fall' from their association. A weak solution, but one that would work.
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-06-06, 02:24 PM	Well, this is a problem brewing. Granted, the Paladin is a noob, and he is playing with a noobish DM. On both counts, inexperience is responsible for errors made here. Some people claim that Evil is not a good thing to play, particulary for new players. I would also add that I as a DM am probably unprepared for some of the consequences of DMing a highly evil party (who really wants to describe long, detailed accounts of rape, murdering children, torture and a world that slowly looses to these sorts of people?) Those things aside, the alignment conflict was inevitable, at least it did not result in PK--yet. As he's now a fallen Paladin, he's going to be easy meat for you alone, and definitely isn't going to down your allies. I'm going to postpone judgement based on whether this drastic course of action (Forced conversion) results in player death. And using OOC actions as a justification for action IC is below the conduct of any player, and you should know better. You are obviously part of the problem here as well. Whether this game reacts by ejecting a noob or by ejecting you, or somehow maturing so that tensions do not dominate the game is an open question. But yes, you've definitely endangered the entire campaign.
Silveus 10-06-06, 02:35 PM	just to shed some light. this is a school sponsered club. it meets once a week for 2 hours. not every one gets there on time. we spent the first sesion making characters and not every one finished. the paladin was the last one to make his character. while he was making it i was helping the druid make hers. also the NE druid and the CE Sorc (he changed his alignment after he read what they do) are Both New Characters. So it was forced One new character to change or force 2 news and 3 experienced ones also if the majority of the party is evil then he is the one messing wiht group dynamics. my actions probably prevented some disaster later on when the paladin descides to side with the gaurds in a conflict. the DM refused to help. the Paladin Refused to compramise. and the rest of the party had the same concerns as i did. even the CG ranger relized there was a problem. i know as a more experianced player i should help him but he refused my help. and the dm was also no help. right now the entire group is having fun except for the paladin. before every one was wating for something to happen and that was not fun. no one could RP because that would lead to in game arguments. and the paladin reacted imature to those. my solution was quick and painless and prevented an actual fight between the party.
Silveus 10-06-06, 02:45 PM	just saw the guy infront of me post. because its a school club we can't actualy walk around and commit super crimes. i also asked the dm if he would mind letting us play evil characters and he said it was ok no one will kill him. thats why i converted him, so he wouldn't be killed. when i threatened to kill him unless he converted he started calling my bluff but the dm advised him to convert at that point. i would say that i am probably not going to be ejected. and i am not entirly sure what you mean by this..... And using OOC actions as a justification for action IC is below the conduct of any player, and you should know better. You are obviously part of the problem here as well. can you clarify what specific part?
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-09-06, 02:47 PM	no one will kill him. thats why i converted him, so he wouldn't be killed. when i threatened to kill him unless he converted he started calling my bluff but the dm advised him to convert at that point. Exactly out of curiousity, how'd that work out? Ex-Paladin is probably among the weakest classes in the game. I know that his conversion probably strength unity IC, but his character is now 'da suck', and he's going to angry OOC. And using OOC actions as a justification for action IC is below the conduct of any player, and you should know better. You are obviously part of the problem here as well. Getting heated over the cheese fries doesn't help anything--I'm just pointing out that this should not be your primary motivation for acting. If its not, its not really pertient to your arguement. If it is, you've acted IC for conduct OOC--something that's really below par for this game.
Magus Gar Kan 10-10-06, 02:25 PM	Unearthed arcana has the paladin of tyranny class option, it is the LE version of the paladin. He could just use that.
Bryarr 10-11-06, 02:50 AM	Since you're obviously the most knowledgeable person in the club, why don't you DM? Jon
eileenh28 10-11-06, 01:10 PM	well thats taking stuff out of context. sure i forced him to change classes and so something he didn't want to. the alternative was to play my character in a way i shouldn't. not to mention he was playing his character completly wrong. and i did try to talk to him and the dm an neither of them helped or offered to meet me half way. And yet another potential player is turned off to Dungeons and Dragons.... How about this alternative: cater to the new players (you were a noob once too, you know) until everyone was comfortable with the game, *then* go hog wild with the evil, pillaging party. PS: I'm thinking the Pally-player was the only one in your group with the spine to stand up to you and your "Ha Ha noob idiots, watch and admire my uber-ness" attitude.
Tarvok 10-11-06, 10:10 PM	The real issue here is that, unless all involved parties are *extremelY* experienced players, mixed-alignment parties simply don't work, and should not have been allowed in the first place. Either Good or Evil should always be disallowed (one or the other), and *maybe* Law or Chaos. (Neutrals are always welcome, of course.)