Cleric or Druid classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric or Druid classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ElWongo2
09-07-06, 05:06 PM Now, I'm a fairly new player. When I first played a game, my DM said that I should be a cleric. But after an hour or so (about 4 or 5 people were all together making our characters) I realized that I really didn't like the sound of clerics. Celibacy, no bladed weapons, having to be religious, etc. I didn't like the sound of that but we still needed a healer, so I became a druid.

Being a druid was awesome. I got an animal friend and had loads of fun, but our D&D group has expanded from 4 people to around 10.
I won't be able ot play with the main group unless I contribute something. I was pretty mad at the DM, since she and I were great friends, and I don't think she should be choosing who gets to play and whatnot.

I guess that if I want to feel useful, I should be a Cleric. I like the sound of them a bit more since I read all of their rules. However, being a druid was a lot of fun too and worked out great with my character.

What should I do?
Feriin
09-07-06, 05:13 PM Why do Clerics have to be Celibat? I missed this entry everytime I read the class description.

As for what to play, go with what you like. Personally I like clerics over other classes.

If your friend is going to make you play something you don't want to just walk away.
Moon-Lancer
09-07-06, 06:20 PM Play what flavor fits you. Are you religious? Play a cleric. Are you spiritual? Play a druid. At level 7, a druid can summon unicorns for lots of healing, so at later levels, they become almost as good as a claric in healing, as long as its out of combat.
AZNsupermarket
09-07-06, 08:35 PM I won't be able to play with the main group unless I contribute something.
This line made me really crack up. Are you claiming that druids don't contribute to the group? It is widely agreed that cleric and druids are two of the strongest class in the game, and IMHO druids are the most powerful class in the game. What other class can turn into giants snakes and deal 300+ damage by level 16? Why should the dm care what you play? It's the dm job to make sure that everyone is having fun. You seemed to being having fun as a druid. There is no reason for her to stop you. If you need a power boost, buy a monk's belt from the dmg for 13,000 gp and ditch whatever armor you were wearing. Buy a wildling clasp that allows you wear items even while wildshaped for 4,000 gp. Buy lots of items that raise your strength and wisdom. Ask to see if contributing then.
CzarGarrett
09-08-06, 09:20 AM I think part of the problem is your DM has added some (absurd) house rules to the Cleric.

At no point does it say a Cleric has to be celibate. In older editions, Clerics could only use blunt/bludgeoning weapons, but that was done away with in 3E.

And being 'religious' is a very, very subjective issue. You could be a Cleric of a War deity, and your worship of him would be fighting whenever you could. There isn't necessarily a RL religiousness to it, in that you have to go to a certain building on a certain day and say certain things (although that does sometimes apply).

Those issues being said, there is basically no way for you to not contribute to a game so long as you are there. Everyone has a role to play, no one is useless (unless, perhaps, someone was playing a commoner- and even then, there's a possibility).

10 people is probably too many to have a group with, but talk with other people. If it seems like there's several fighters/barbarians and a handful of wizards/sorcerers, that leaves Divine Casters and Skill Monkeys as options for you.
Judging Eagle
09-08-06, 10:51 AM Play a religious bastard of a cleric.

Human Cleric of Pelor.

Make sure, above all else that you have the Sun domain, healing is handy, buy semi-lame.

Buy yourself the biggest, badest martial weapon (or save up if you are able to) because at lvl 6 you'll qualify for Radiant Servant of Pelor. Probably one of the most ass-kicking, undead destroying PrCs ever made.

Why? They can use ALL martial weapons, any armour and sheilds (I think they get tower, but tower sheilds suck when you can just get a masterwork/magical darkwood heavy sheild that has no armour check penalty). Plus, the Greater Turning ability gets more uses (instead of 1/day that the Sun domain grants, an RSoP can Greater Turn 3 + Cha Mod per day).

You may want to thrown in the following feats as well.

Human: Extra Turning
1st Extend Spell
3rd Persisant Spell
6th Divine Metamagic [Persistant Spell]
9th Craft Rod
12
15
18

Sure, you may be using Divine Metamagicked Persisant Spell Cheese, but who freaking cares? You're the bloody cleric, if you can't kick ass, take names and declare yourself Supreme Battle-Cleric of your faith, then you can always go back to being a walking red potion dispensing machine.

Oh, also, you'll be able to run around with 24 hour buffs thanks to divine metamagicked persisant spells (divine metamagic lets you trade in turning attempts equal to 1 + Added Spell levels to a spell so that really, you get 24hr spells that don't take up a higher spell slot; Persistant spell add +6 spell levels, so thats 7 turning attempts)

The Craft Rod feat could be replaced with Leadership (and get an Artificer cohort... not sure if the ariticier needs extra turning to craft nightsticks though.), or get leadership at 12th.

Oh, one more thing... get yourself gear that does the following:

1. Increase Turning "checks" (not damage)

Since it's 1d20 + Cha and you want to get at least 21 + 1d20 to max your turning check, here's a few things you can do:

-flame Touched holy sybmols out of eberron add +2
-5 ranks in Know (religion) adds + 2

-gear that buffs your cha (and cha checks) also works, so a circlet of persuasion and a claok of cha can add a lot (at least 1 from the cha cloak and +3 from the circlet)

Assuming 16 cha (+3 mod); plus a +2 cha cloak, plus a circlet of persuasion (+3); 5 ranks (reachable at lvl 2 anyway) and the hoyl symbol (cheaper than the other two items listed here) you'll get

+3 [cha] + 1 [cloak] + 3 [CoP] + 2 [ranks] + 2 [flame-touched symbol] = +11; so on an 11 or better you'll 'max' your tunring check.

Taking heighten turning or empower turning as feats could also work; getting the Purification domain at RSoP level 5 could also help (Purification adds 1d6 more to your turning damage so you get 3d6 + Cha mod + Cleric Lvl instead of jsut 2d6 + Cha + Clc lvl).

In any case, what you want to do is to be able to successfully turn undead through a combination of items that increase your effetive cleric level [phylatctery of undead turning (+4 effective cleric lvls for turning UD; DMG item), Scepter of the Netherworld + 3 Clerci lvls 9k Libris Mortis.

Plus you can reduce Undead Turning Resistance to make the gap between your cleric and an enemy Undead smaller with items like: Rod of defiance (-3 turn resistance to UD within 30' it's also a +2 heavy mace; 13k Libris Mortis 78) [with this you 'could' give undead negative hitdice with regards to turning, but it's better used to turn reall REALLY high hit dice undead).

Also a "Muscial Insturment" of the Restful Soul [also form the Libris Mortis] (the layer has to make a DC 15 Perform check to impose a -4 Turn Resistance penalty on UD within 60' (so that they can have ther effective HD with regard to turning reduced by up to 4 down to a minimum of 1 HD. Give the instrument to a 'skill-monkey'; the fact that most of their special attack skill sfail vs undead will make them more than glad to help you destroy undead lickedy-split.

So, you can add up to 7 cleric levels to yourself, and subtract up to 8 HD from all nearby UD; closing the gap by which you can turn undead. So at lvl say... 6 you can affect any undead up to 10 HD 'normally'; really you can affect any undead with up to Hit Dice + Turn Resistance of 18 (either an UD with 18 Hit Dice, one with 14 HD + 4 Turn Resistance or whatever combo that adds up to 18).

your turning damage will be around 2d6 + Cha mod (+7) + Cleric lvl (+6) = 2d6 + 13 = 15-25 (average: 19)

So, you could turn up to an 18 HD undead (the range for your max will be from 14 to 18 thanks to a high amount of modifers on the tunring check makging so that it will almost never be lower than 11 on the check) and an average of 19 HD of undead turned in total

Now, "that's all well and good" you're thinking. "But I don't destroy undead unless I have 2x their HD in Effective Cleric levels, so they'll just run away and come back later"; now that's true, until you read what Greater Turning does.

With a greater turning, you destroy any undead that would have been turned. None of that You must have twice their Hit Dice in cleric levels. You just freaking powder them.

If you throw in a few night sticks (with craft rod) you get +4 more turning attempts per day (to be used in Divine Metamagic, or saved up for Greater turnings).

Realistically you can't get all of the above listed items until lvl 9-10; but the insturment is a scant 3k; and the circlet of persuasion is 4.5k so you and the skil monkey could get those around lvl 5-7. By lvl 10 however, you cleric can turn up to a 28 HD undead and turn 21-31 HD total. You'll be capable of Powdering Undead that are CR'd from CR 15 (Angel of Decay 26 HD Libris Mortis), CR 19 (advanced Death shrieker 25 HD CR 19 MMIII) and down (however a Necronaut with 32 HD at CR 12 will still be 'challenging')

So, destroy normal fights with divne metamagic, and powder undead with greater turnings.
Reversefigure4
09-08-06, 08:08 PM Clerics don't have to be celibate, and your religious views depend entirely on your deity of choice.

Pick a nature deity (Obad-Hai is an excellent one, and commonly worshipped by druids), and play a druid-like cleric dedicated to nature, animals, etc.
Tarvok
09-09-06, 01:59 AM It sounds to me like your DM has pigeonholed all clerics as being clerics of St. Cuthbert, or maybe Pelor. There are many other possibilities:

Cleric of Boccob: Basically, imagine a wizard with divine spells. Often multi-class, these guys are basically just healer-support for wizards, sages, and other knowledge-oriented types.

Cleric of Elonna: A benevolent patron of anyone who loves the woods.

Cleric of Farlanghn: This guy isn't just a shiftless wanderer, shiftless wandering is his religeon! He loves to travel, and his order is constantly agitating to make traveling easier: road-building, etc.

Cleric of Heironeous: You might mistake him for a paladin, at first. He wears armor, wields a sword, but he's better with the magic, not quite as good with the sword. He'll bring fire and sword against any and all evil that rears its ugly head.

Cleric of Kord: You'll frequently find him attending athletes who have hurt themselves. He's not a half-bad athlete himself, though he ended up going the "sports medicine" route, himself. Gets along well with fighters, barbarians, and rogues, and hasn't much use for restrictive rules and laws.

Cleric of Obad-Hai: Basically a druid with cleric spells. Obad-Hai is not quite as restricted for alignment as Ehlonna is: you're as likely to find an evil cleric glorying in nature's brutality as a benevolent cleric helping lost children out of the woods.

Cleric of Olidammara: No temples, no vows, just wine, women, and song. Clerics of Olidammara are to rogues and bards what clerics of Heironius are to paladins.

Cleric of Wee Jas: I leave it as an excercise to the reader to imagine what a lawful-good death priest would be like. Wee Jas, being lawful-neutral, has both good and evil clerics.
EarthForce
09-09-06, 03:34 AM No bladed weapons? Sounds like your DM is using tweaks from an older version of D&D if not playing that altogether. Sounds like 2nd edition to me, not 3.5.
Salla
09-09-06, 03:39 AM No bladed weapons? Sounds like your DM is using tweaks from an older version of D&D if not playing that altogether. Sounds like 2nd edition to me, not 3.5.

No kidding. It didn't even make any sense; 'you can't use a weapon that sheds blood'? If you smash someone over the head or in the face with a mace, there's blood (I understand the movie Braveheart demonstrates this admirably). On the other hand, I still have to shake the occassional bout of revisionitis off my players, too. ("Of *course* you can be a Dwarven Wizard.")

And Celibate? PALADINS don't even have to be celibate.
Tarvok
09-09-06, 12:41 PM No kidding. It didn't even make any sense; 'you can't use a weapon that sheds blood'? If you smash someone over the head or in the face with a mace, there's blood (I understand the movie Braveheart demonstrates this admirably).

As little sense as it makes, it was the case back in second edition, and probably was the case in times and places in our own world. Probably the religeon forbid the shedding of blood, and ignorant bloodthirsty warriors who wanted to look holy said, "Ok, no blood, but we can still break bones!"
zvbxrpl
09-09-06, 02:03 PM If your DM doesn't think a druid contributes anything, he doesn't know what he's talking about. While a druid is not as versatile as a cleric, it is still an excellent support character, and is certainly no slouch in solo situations. Talk over keeping your druid with your DM, and if he says no, it is probably bias toward clerics and not interest in characters capable of contributing that's talking.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ElWongo2 09-07-06, 05:06 PM	Now, I'm a fairly new player. When I first played a game, my DM said that I should be a cleric. But after an hour or so (about 4 or 5 people were all together making our characters) I realized that I really didn't like the sound of clerics. Celibacy, no bladed weapons, having to be religious, etc. I didn't like the sound of that but we still needed a healer, so I became a druid. Being a druid was awesome. I got an animal friend and had loads of fun, but our D&D group has expanded from 4 people to around 10. I won't be able ot play with the main group unless I contribute something. I was pretty mad at the DM, since she and I were great friends, and I don't think she should be choosing who gets to play and whatnot. I guess that if I want to feel useful, I should be a Cleric. I like the sound of them a bit more since I read all of their rules. However, being a druid was a lot of fun too and worked out great with my character. What should I do?
Feriin 09-07-06, 05:13 PM	Why do Clerics have to be Celibat? I missed this entry everytime I read the class description. As for what to play, go with what you like. Personally I like clerics over other classes. If your friend is going to make you play something you don't want to just walk away.
Moon-Lancer 09-07-06, 06:20 PM	Play what flavor fits you. Are you religious? Play a cleric. Are you spiritual? Play a druid. At level 7, a druid can summon unicorns for lots of healing, so at later levels, they become almost as good as a claric in healing, as long as its out of combat.
AZNsupermarket 09-07-06, 08:35 PM	I won't be able to play with the main group unless I contribute something. This line made me really crack up. Are you claiming that druids don't contribute to the group? It is widely agreed that cleric and druids are two of the strongest class in the game, and IMHO druids are the most powerful class in the game. What other class can turn into giants snakes and deal 300+ damage by level 16? Why should the dm care what you play? It's the dm job to make sure that everyone is having fun. You seemed to being having fun as a druid. There is no reason for her to stop you. If you need a power boost, buy a monk's belt from the dmg for 13,000 gp and ditch whatever armor you were wearing. Buy a wildling clasp that allows you wear items even while wildshaped for 4,000 gp. Buy lots of items that raise your strength and wisdom. Ask to see if contributing then.
CzarGarrett 09-08-06, 09:20 AM	I think part of the problem is your DM has added some (absurd) house rules to the Cleric. At no point does it say a Cleric has to be celibate. In older editions, Clerics could only use blunt/bludgeoning weapons, but that was done away with in 3E. And being 'religious' is a very, very subjective issue. You could be a Cleric of a War deity, and your worship of him would be fighting whenever you could. There isn't necessarily a RL religiousness to it, in that you have to go to a certain building on a certain day and say certain things (although that does sometimes apply). Those issues being said, there is basically no way for you to not contribute to a game so long as you are there. Everyone has a role to play, no one is useless (unless, perhaps, someone was playing a commoner- and even then, there's a possibility). 10 people is probably too many to have a group with, but talk with other people. If it seems like there's several fighters/barbarians and a handful of wizards/sorcerers, that leaves Divine Casters and Skill Monkeys as options for you.
Judging Eagle 09-08-06, 10:51 AM	Play a religious bastard of a cleric. Human Cleric of Pelor. Make sure, above all else that you have the Sun domain, healing is handy, buy semi-lame. Buy yourself the biggest, badest martial weapon (or save up if you are able to) because at lvl 6 you'll qualify for Radiant Servant of Pelor. Probably one of the most ass-kicking, undead destroying PrCs ever made. Why? They can use ALL martial weapons, any armour and sheilds (I think they get tower, but tower sheilds suck when you can just get a masterwork/magical darkwood heavy sheild that has no armour check penalty). Plus, the Greater Turning ability gets more uses (instead of 1/day that the Sun domain grants, an RSoP can Greater Turn 3 + Cha Mod per day). You may want to thrown in the following feats as well. Human: Extra Turning 1st Extend Spell 3rd Persisant Spell 6th Divine Metamagic [Persistant Spell] 9th Craft Rod 12 15 18 Sure, you may be using Divine Metamagicked Persisant Spell Cheese, but who freaking cares? You're the bloody cleric, if you can't kick ass, take names and declare yourself Supreme Battle-Cleric of your faith, then you can always go back to being a walking red potion dispensing machine. Oh, also, you'll be able to run around with 24 hour buffs thanks to divine metamagicked persisant spells (divine metamagic lets you trade in turning attempts equal to 1 + Added Spell levels to a spell so that really, you get 24hr spells that don't take up a higher spell slot; Persistant spell add +6 spell levels, so thats 7 turning attempts) The Craft Rod feat could be replaced with Leadership (and get an Artificer cohort... not sure if the ariticier needs extra turning to craft nightsticks though.), or get leadership at 12th. Oh, one more thing... get yourself gear that does the following: 1. Increase Turning "checks" (not damage) Since it's 1d20 + Cha and you want to get at least 21 + 1d20 to max your turning check, here's a few things you can do: -flame Touched holy sybmols out of eberron add +2 -5 ranks in Know (religion) adds + 2 -gear that buffs your cha (and cha checks) also works, so a circlet of persuasion and a claok of cha can add a lot (at least 1 from the cha cloak and +3 from the circlet) Assuming 16 cha (+3 mod); plus a +2 cha cloak, plus a circlet of persuasion (+3); 5 ranks (reachable at lvl 2 anyway) and the hoyl symbol (cheaper than the other two items listed here) you'll get +3 [cha] + 1 [cloak] + 3 [CoP] + 2 [ranks] + 2 [flame-touched symbol] = +11; so on an 11 or better you'll 'max' your tunring check. Taking heighten turning or empower turning as feats could also work; getting the Purification domain at RSoP level 5 could also help (Purification adds 1d6 more to your turning damage so you get 3d6 + Cha mod + Cleric Lvl instead of jsut 2d6 + Cha + Clc lvl). In any case, what you want to do is to be able to successfully turn undead through a combination of items that increase your effetive cleric level [phylatctery of undead turning (+4 effective cleric lvls for turning UD; DMG item), Scepter of the Netherworld + 3 Clerci lvls 9k Libris Mortis. Plus you can reduce Undead Turning Resistance to make the gap between your cleric and an enemy Undead smaller with items like: Rod of defiance (-3 turn resistance to UD within 30' it's also a +2 heavy mace; 13k Libris Mortis 78) [with this you 'could' give undead negative hitdice with regards to turning, but it's better used to turn reall REALLY high hit dice undead). Also a "Muscial Insturment" of the Restful Soul [also form the Libris Mortis] (the layer has to make a DC 15 Perform check to impose a -4 Turn Resistance penalty on UD within 60' (so that they can have ther effective HD with regard to turning reduced by up to 4 down to a minimum of 1 HD. Give the instrument to a 'skill-monkey'; the fact that most of their special attack skill sfail vs undead will make them more than glad to help you destroy undead lickedy-split. So, you can add up to 7 cleric levels to yourself, and subtract up to 8 HD from all nearby UD; closing the gap by which you can turn undead. So at lvl say... 6 you can affect any undead up to 10 HD 'normally'; really you can affect any undead with up to Hit Dice + Turn Resistance of 18 (either an UD with 18 Hit Dice, one with 14 HD + 4 Turn Resistance or whatever combo that adds up to 18). your turning damage will be around 2d6 + Cha mod (+7) + Cleric lvl (+6) = 2d6 + 13 = 15-25 (average: 19) So, you could turn up to an 18 HD undead (the range for your max will be from 14 to 18 thanks to a high amount of modifers on the tunring check makging so that it will almost never be lower than 11 on the check) and an average of 19 HD of undead turned in total Now, "that's all well and good" you're thinking. "But I don't destroy undead unless I have 2x their HD in Effective Cleric levels, so they'll just run away and come back later"; now that's true, until you read what Greater Turning does. With a greater turning, you destroy any undead that would have been turned. None of that You must have twice their Hit Dice in cleric levels. You just freaking powder them. If you throw in a few night sticks (with craft rod) you get +4 more turning attempts per day (to be used in Divine Metamagic, or saved up for Greater turnings). Realistically you can't get all of the above listed items until lvl 9-10; but the insturment is a scant 3k; and the circlet of persuasion is 4.5k so you and the skil monkey could get those around lvl 5-7. By lvl 10 however, you cleric can turn up to a 28 HD undead and turn 21-31 HD total. You'll be capable of Powdering Undead that are CR'd from CR 15 (Angel of Decay 26 HD Libris Mortis), CR 19 (advanced Death shrieker 25 HD CR 19 MMIII) and down (however a Necronaut with 32 HD at CR 12 will still be 'challenging') So, destroy normal fights with divne metamagic, and powder undead with greater turnings.
Reversefigure4 09-08-06, 08:08 PM	Clerics don't have to be celibate, and your religious views depend entirely on your deity of choice. Pick a nature deity (Obad-Hai is an excellent one, and commonly worshipped by druids), and play a druid-like cleric dedicated to nature, animals, etc.
Tarvok 09-09-06, 01:59 AM	It sounds to me like your DM has pigeonholed all clerics as being clerics of St. Cuthbert, or maybe Pelor. There are many other possibilities: Cleric of Boccob: Basically, imagine a wizard with divine spells. Often multi-class, these guys are basically just healer-support for wizards, sages, and other knowledge-oriented types. Cleric of Elonna: A benevolent patron of anyone who loves the woods. Cleric of Farlanghn: This guy isn't just a shiftless wanderer, shiftless wandering is his religeon! He loves to travel, and his order is constantly agitating to make traveling easier: road-building, etc. Cleric of Heironeous: You might mistake him for a paladin, at first. He wears armor, wields a sword, but he's better with the magic, not quite as good with the sword. He'll bring fire and sword against any and all evil that rears its ugly head. Cleric of Kord: You'll frequently find him attending athletes who have hurt themselves. He's not a half-bad athlete himself, though he ended up going the "sports medicine" route, himself. Gets along well with fighters, barbarians, and rogues, and hasn't much use for restrictive rules and laws. Cleric of Obad-Hai: Basically a druid with cleric spells. Obad-Hai is not quite as restricted for alignment as Ehlonna is: you're as likely to find an evil cleric glorying in nature's brutality as a benevolent cleric helping lost children out of the woods. Cleric of Olidammara: No temples, no vows, just wine, women, and song. Clerics of Olidammara are to rogues and bards what clerics of Heironius are to paladins. Cleric of Wee Jas: I leave it as an excercise to the reader to imagine what a lawful-good death priest would be like. Wee Jas, being lawful-neutral, has both good and evil clerics.
EarthForce 09-09-06, 03:34 AM	No bladed weapons? Sounds like your DM is using tweaks from an older version of D&D if not playing that altogether. Sounds like 2nd edition to me, not 3.5.
Salla 09-09-06, 03:39 AM	No bladed weapons? Sounds like your DM is using tweaks from an older version of D&D if not playing that altogether. Sounds like 2nd edition to me, not 3.5. No kidding. It didn't even make any sense; 'you can't use a weapon that sheds blood'? If you smash someone over the head or in the face with a mace, there's blood (I understand the movie Braveheart demonstrates this admirably). On the other hand, I still have to shake the occassional bout of revisionitis off my players, too. ("Of course you can be a Dwarven Wizard.") And Celibate? PALADINS don't even have to be celibate.
Tarvok 09-09-06, 12:41 PM	No kidding. It didn't even make any sense; 'you can't use a weapon that sheds blood'? If you smash someone over the head or in the face with a mace, there's blood (I understand the movie Braveheart demonstrates this admirably). As little sense as it makes, it was the case back in second edition, and probably was the case in times and places in our own world. Probably the religeon forbid the shedding of blood, and ignorant bloodthirsty warriors who wanted to look holy said, "Ok, no blood, but we can still break bones!"
zvbxrpl 09-09-06, 02:03 PM	If your DM doesn't think a druid contributes anything, he doesn't know what he's talking about. While a druid is not as versatile as a cleric, it is still an excellent support character, and is certainly no slouch in solo situations. Talk over keeping your druid with your DM, and if he says no, it is probably bias toward clerics and not interest in characters capable of contributing that's talking.