Cleric's Magic Domain and Arcane Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cleric's Magic Domain and Arcane Magic Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheSkinnySkeleton
07-04-06, 01:07 PM I'm starting a new campaign at level 10, and was thinking of playing a cleric with the Magic and Travel domains (custom deity). I was aiming for Magic domain for the domain's granted powers, as the party has no arcane spellcaster. The DM was cool with this idea, but he is unsure about letting me use wands with arcane spells. He wants me to take a level or two as Wizard, and only use wands with spells that are in my spellbook. However, I am pretty sure my cleric could cast any arcane spells of 5th caster level or lower, if cast through a magic item or scroll.

For clarification, below are the SRD definitions for Magic Domain, and spell trigger items:
Magic Domain
Granted Power
Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.
Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
My question is: can my cleric use any wand or scroll with arcane spells of up to 5th caster level? Or does he have to take levels as Wizard to qualify?
Millennium
07-04-06, 02:07 PM In order to use a spell trigger or spell completion item, the spell in question has to be of the same type you cast (arcane vs. divine) and it has to be on your class list.

To give a somewhat contrived example, if a bard scribes a scroll of cure light wounds, only bards will be able to use it. Wizards and sorcerers can't use it, because cure light wounds is not on the sorcerer/wizard class list. Clerics and druids can't use the scroll either, even though cure light wounds is on their class lists, because it's an arcane scroll and they don't use arcane spells.

Generally speaking, if you want to be able to use arcane wands and/or scrolls, take a level of sorcerer. If you have to take a level of an arcane class, then sorcerer is better for dipping than wizard is. The class represents innate ability rather than study so the flavor works out better, the limited spell knowledge and class skill lists are not problems since you don't intend to actually advance in the class, but you get a few more casts per day out of the deal than you would with a wizard.
TheSkinnySkeleton
07-04-06, 02:33 PM The problem is that the Magic domain granted power specifically states the cleric can "use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level)."

The rules for magic items use and the domain granted power description contradict each other. The domain says the cleric can use the items as a wizard, but the rules for magic items state that the spell must be on your class list. Therefore, if it was not allowable, wouldn't this make the domain's granted power completely useless for a cleric?

And if it is useless, why is it there? Very confusing....

On the other hand...if it is true that arcane magic items are not usable by my cleric, and I have to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, would I only be able to use items with level 1 spells? That is another problem--my DM said that since I only took one level of wizard, he only gets a wand of magic missiles. No fireballs. :(
Silverlight
07-04-06, 03:12 PM The Magic domain says, "When you pick up an arcane wand or scroll, pretend you're a wizard of half your class level". Okay, so you're a Cleric 8. What could a Wizard 4 do? Could he pick up a wand of Fireball and use it? Yes. Could he cast Fireball off a scroll? Yes, after he passes a Spellcraft check. Okay, so you can do those things too. You don't need to dip Wizard or Sorceror for this benefit, it's what you get for having the Magic domain.

And no, a Wizard 1 isn't restricted to wands with level 1 spells. Spell trigger items work even for characters that can't cast spells yet (the example given in the DMG is a 3rd-level Paladin using a wand). A Wizard 1 can conceivably use a Wand of Shapechange (if it existed) just as a Fighter 1 can use a +5 Vorpal Longsword. It's the sheer cost that is prohibitive.
TheSkinnySkeleton
07-04-06, 03:25 PM OK, that sounds exactly like what I hoped for, and indeed the character concept I had in mind.

Can I have a few more takes on this please? I need to be able to convince my DM beyond any doubt.
Morwen
07-04-06, 05:57 PM I agree. There is virtually no point in the ability if you need to be an arcane caster in the first place in order to get any use out of it.
Thiez
07-04-06, 06:20 PM He wants me to take a level or two as Wizard, and only use wands with spells that are in my spellbook.

Well, as far as I know, that's not how it works. You can trigger any wand that contains a spell that's on your class list. You don't have to know the spell! :)

If you really want to be evil, get a Wand of Mnemonic Enhancer ^^
Millennium
07-05-06, 09:43 AM I had forgotten about the Magic domain's granted power: it lets you break that rule. Sorry about that.

Ahem. In that case, you can use scrolls, wands, and such exactly as a wizard of half your cleric level would. You cannot actually learn arcane spells, but you can use arcane magic items.
Nom
07-05-06, 09:42 PM The Magic domain ability isn't overpowering. It really only works well for items that don't care about caster level, ie wands. While you can also use staves and scrolls, you do so at a CL half that of yours. So basically the domain ability allows you to use wands without either taking a level of wizard or passing a DC 20 UMD check. And suffers the usual limitations of device-cast magic - minimal DCs and (usually) minimal CLs.
Terraneaux
07-06-06, 03:12 AM You can make a caster level check to use scrolls of a level higher than a wizard of half your cleric level could cast. It's nice in a party without a wizard because you can use any of the arcane gear that is dropped. Wand of fireballs: Hell yes!
Senevri
07-06-06, 06:41 AM a cleric with the Magic and Travel domains (custom deity).
God of... Teleportation? Patron of Wayfarer Guides?

Amusingly, Cleric with magic domains X + Wizard Y uses items as
Wizard Y + (X/2)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheSkinnySkeleton 07-04-06, 01:07 PM	I'm starting a new campaign at level 10, and was thinking of playing a cleric with the Magic and Travel domains (custom deity). I was aiming for Magic domain for the domain's granted powers, as the party has no arcane spellcaster. The DM was cool with this idea, but he is unsure about letting me use wands with arcane spells. He wants me to take a level or two as Wizard, and only use wands with spells that are in my spellbook. However, I am pretty sure my cleric could cast any arcane spells of 5th caster level or lower, if cast through a magic item or scroll. For clarification, below are the SRD definitions for Magic Domain, and spell trigger items: Magic Domain Granted Power Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack. Spell Trigger Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. My question is: can my cleric use any wand or scroll with arcane spells of up to 5th caster level? Or does he have to take levels as Wizard to qualify?
Millennium 07-04-06, 02:07 PM	In order to use a spell trigger or spell completion item, the spell in question has to be of the same type you cast (arcane vs. divine) and it has to be on your class list. To give a somewhat contrived example, if a bard scribes a scroll of cure light wounds, only bards will be able to use it. Wizards and sorcerers can't use it, because cure light wounds is not on the sorcerer/wizard class list. Clerics and druids can't use the scroll either, even though cure light wounds is on their class lists, because it's an arcane scroll and they don't use arcane spells. Generally speaking, if you want to be able to use arcane wands and/or scrolls, take a level of sorcerer. If you have to take a level of an arcane class, then sorcerer is better for dipping than wizard is. The class represents innate ability rather than study so the flavor works out better, the limited spell knowledge and class skill lists are not problems since you don't intend to actually advance in the class, but you get a few more casts per day out of the deal than you would with a wizard.
TheSkinnySkeleton 07-04-06, 02:33 PM	The problem is that the Magic domain granted power specifically states the cleric can "use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level)." The rules for magic items use and the domain granted power description contradict each other. The domain says the cleric can use the items as a wizard, but the rules for magic items state that the spell must be on your class list. Therefore, if it was not allowable, wouldn't this make the domain's granted power completely useless for a cleric? And if it is useless, why is it there? Very confusing.... On the other hand...if it is true that arcane magic items are not usable by my cleric, and I have to take a level of wizard or sorcerer, would I only be able to use items with level 1 spells? That is another problem--my DM said that since I only took one level of wizard, he only gets a wand of magic missiles. No fireballs. :(
Silverlight 07-04-06, 03:12 PM	The Magic domain says, "When you pick up an arcane wand or scroll, pretend you're a wizard of half your class level". Okay, so you're a Cleric 8. What could a Wizard 4 do? Could he pick up a wand of Fireball and use it? Yes. Could he cast Fireball off a scroll? Yes, after he passes a Spellcraft check. Okay, so you can do those things too. You don't need to dip Wizard or Sorceror for this benefit, it's what you get for having the Magic domain. And no, a Wizard 1 isn't restricted to wands with level 1 spells. Spell trigger items work even for characters that can't cast spells yet (the example given in the DMG is a 3rd-level Paladin using a wand). A Wizard 1 can conceivably use a Wand of Shapechange (if it existed) just as a Fighter 1 can use a +5 Vorpal Longsword. It's the sheer cost that is prohibitive.
TheSkinnySkeleton 07-04-06, 03:25 PM	OK, that sounds exactly like what I hoped for, and indeed the character concept I had in mind. Can I have a few more takes on this please? I need to be able to convince my DM beyond any doubt.
Morwen 07-04-06, 05:57 PM	I agree. There is virtually no point in the ability if you need to be an arcane caster in the first place in order to get any use out of it.
Thiez 07-04-06, 06:20 PM	He wants me to take a level or two as Wizard, and only use wands with spells that are in my spellbook. Well, as far as I know, that's not how it works. You can trigger any wand that contains a spell that's on your class list. You don't have to know the spell! :) If you really want to be evil, get a Wand of Mnemonic Enhancer ^^
Millennium 07-05-06, 09:43 AM	I had forgotten about the Magic domain's granted power: it lets you break that rule. Sorry about that. Ahem. In that case, you can use scrolls, wands, and such exactly as a wizard of half your cleric level would. You cannot actually learn arcane spells, but you can use arcane magic items.
Nom 07-05-06, 09:42 PM	The Magic domain ability isn't overpowering. It really only works well for items that don't care about caster level, ie wands. While you can also use staves and scrolls, you do so at a CL half that of yours. So basically the domain ability allows you to use wands without either taking a level of wizard or passing a DC 20 UMD check. And suffers the usual limitations of device-cast magic - minimal DCs and (usually) minimal CLs.
Terraneaux 07-06-06, 03:12 AM	You can make a caster level check to use scrolls of a level higher than a wizard of half your cleric level could cast. It's nice in a party without a wizard because you can use any of the arcane gear that is dropped. Wand of fireballs: Hell yes!
Senevri 07-06-06, 06:41 AM	a cleric with the Magic and Travel domains (custom deity). God of... Teleportation? Patron of Wayfarer Guides? Amusingly, Cleric with magic domains X + Wizard Y uses items as Wizard Y + (X/2)