cleric/bard prestige? [Archive] - Wizards Community

cleric/bard prestige? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NiT
08-26-06, 08:11 AM Ok, so I am working on deciding on how to make my first character (or at least one of my first. For my first game which starts here as soon as my to be group finishes their last quest, I have been considering a few different ones to try, but I am really liking this one right now). I want to make a gnome bard/cleric. He is usually a happy go lucky character, but is very protective of his friends. A healer/buffer guy with kinda a trickster undercut. Anyway, so the abilities I had wanted to focus on were his bardic music and his clerical spell casting. I was kinda planning on making him a Virtuoso and using the +1 level of existing spell casting class for clerical magic, but when I finally got the book in the mail (I had just been looking the class up online), I noticed it was for specifically an arcane spell class. So I started looking for other options in the book (I just got the Complete Adventurer), for one that would let me do the same type of thing were I keep going in bardic music as well as clerical spell casting, and I came across the Fochlucan Lyrist, but it requires Speak Language (Druidic). So I guess my question is three fold. 1) Is either of these prestige classes capable of doing what I want? 2) If I wanted to go for the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class is there any way to get Druidic language without actually taking levels in druid class (and thus incurring an XP penalty on top of using up levels)? 3) Is there a better option for a prestige class for what I want?

Like I said, this is my first character, so I am a little hesitant to bend the rules even if I asked the DM for permission. The only books I have are the core and the Complete Adventurers Guild, though I could probably use the rest of my group's books (though I am not sure what all they have...).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Nit
(Newbie in Training)
serow_#R
08-26-06, 09:12 AM 3) Divine Prankster
from Races of Stone, a prestige class for Gnome Bard/Clerics
Reversefigure4
08-26-06, 08:39 PM - I'd recommend a straight bard instead. Bards can heal, although not as well as a Cleric... but Bards can use any healing wands or scrolls too (and Use Magic Device lets you pick up another nifty spells). A Bard Cleric will likely be quite weak.

- By the Rules as Written, the only way to learn Druidic is to take a level in Druid. Your DM may let you get around this with a bit of an adventure. There's a story posted around the boards I read about a Rogue who disguised himself as a Druid and infiltrated a Druid settlement, then stayed there a month using the spell Tongues to fit in and learn the language.

- If you want to go Foc. Lyricist, take the Druid level last (just before you enter the Prc), and you should only incur penalities for that single level (I think... I may be wrong on this).
X-Codes
08-26-06, 11:44 PM The Speak Language skill does not say you can't learn Druidic with it if you aren't a druid. Of course, considering the fact that it's a secret language the DM is well within his rights to make you work for it. You are usually better off taking levels in Druid; because Druids have an awesome spell list.
Reversefigure4
08-27-06, 08:23 PM The Speak Language skill does not say you can't learn Druidic with it if you aren't a druid.

Er, yes it does. Quite clearly. On the table of languages, it states "Druidic - Druids (only)" as speakers. Only Druids can speak Druidic, and are forbidden to teach it to non-Druids.

There's plenty of underhanded ways to go about it - find an ex-Druid selling his services, impersonate a Druid until you learn the language, find enough written Druidic and decipher script until you can eventually learn it, use Wish to be allowed to speak it, etc, etc... but you'll need DM co-operation for all of them.
NiT
08-28-06, 12:48 AM 3) Divine Prankster
from Races of Stone, a prestige class for Gnome Bard/Clerics
Since I don't have that book here could you give me a quick overview of this class? I mean what would it do? The name itself sounds cool, but I have nothing else to go on...
Solik
08-28-06, 12:56 AM Does home-brew stuff fly in your campaign? I've got a PrC in my sig that you might be able to adjust for your particular deity.
Polaris
08-28-06, 02:31 AM Guys,

1 or 2 levels of Loremaster will also give you Druidic and there isn't any DM cooperation required on that one.

-Polaris
MadMoly
08-28-06, 05:00 AM It could be an alignment issue, but get your hands on BoVD and i think there is a section on torture. You then just have to capture a druid and 'convince' him to teach you. As either a bard or cleric, you know you have access to healing spells to keep him from dieing on you. Hey, and since you have no use for a newly fallen ex-druid, and we're in the BoVD, take an item creation feat and bottle some pain ;)

MadMoly
Rotipher
08-28-06, 12:08 PM Always an option: tell your DM what you want to do with your PC. If you've got a good reason, the gamemaster ought to be willing to modify an existing PrC to suit your needs -- altering the Lyrist to make it a cleric/bard hybrid rather than a druid/bard one, for example, or simply broadening the Virtuoso's options so that new casting-levels can be devoted to divine magic as well -- or to work with you to design an entirely new one.

Heck, that's one of the things PrCs are for! Just don't try to make it a super-butt-kicker class, and a reasonable DM shouldn't object to your request. Your PC will probably take a while to gain the levels necessary for any PrC, in any case, so you and the DM will have some time to decide on the changes.
2nd Ed Paladin
08-28-06, 12:51 PM -
- If you want to go Foc. Lyricist, take the Druid level last (just before you enter the Prc), and you should only incur penalities for that single level (I think... I may be wrong on this).

I believe the penalty would apply after that level. The XP penalty applies until the situation has been corrected.

I would speak to your DM about changinf the Virtuoso do be a divine class. I can't see how iot would affect the balance of the class in any way.

If you really don't want to alter the rules I would go straight bard (as they get divine spells.
Polaris
08-28-06, 02:31 PM :nonono:

Bards do not get divine spells. They get arcane healing spells which is another animal entirely.

-Polaris
2nd Ed Paladin
08-28-06, 02:45 PM Bards do not get divine spells. They get arcane healing spells which is another animal entirely.

-Polaris

You say tomato (tuh-mey-toh) I say tomato (tuh-mah-toh). Not really relevant to the discussion.
Polaris
08-28-06, 02:53 PM You say tomato (tuh-mey-toh) I say tomato (tuh-mah-toh). Not really relevant to the discussion.

I couldn't disagree more. If there were no difference, then the OP would not have a problem finding a good PrC for this purpose. Divine Spells are very different from Arcane ones and healing is the least of it.

OP, if I were you I'd take a look at the Mystic Theurge and Foc. Lyrist and then talk to your DM about a custom PrC made from those examples.

-Polaris
2nd Ed Paladin
08-28-06, 03:09 PM I guess I'll give you that one (grumble, grumble). I did mean to say that a straight bard will fulfil the objectives the OP indicated as it can buff, heal and provide the tricksy aspect.
NiT
08-29-06, 02:12 AM Thanks everyone. I think I will try and do the Lormaster in order to learn Druidic. I appricate the input.
Beckett
08-29-06, 02:22 AM In an evil came, we convinced a player Druid, to teach a Bardish character Druidic, in game. The DM rulled he should have known that he was violating his oath by doing so, as he was not dominated, or charmed, and had played a Druid before. He qualified for the FoLy at a really really low level, withought any Druid Levels.
serow_#R
08-29-06, 04:44 AM Since I don't have that book here could you give me a quick overview of this class? I mean what would it do? The name itself sounds cool, but I have nothing else to go on...

IIRC, it adds bardic music, +1 divine spellcasting every level, 6+ (or 4+) Int SP, and has several class features that involves "playing pranks" on others. I'll write more when I get home.
Beckett
08-29-06, 05:28 AM there is one in the War of the Lance setting book. It basically uses some Bard skills and abilities to biuld a more social Cleric, but adds Bards spells to their Divine list. For the most part, it is a sort of slow build, but increases Divine spellcasting and grants some more bardlike options.
serow_#R
08-29-06, 10:45 AM alright, the brief of the divine prankster

for Gnome Bard/Cleric multiclass, d6, 6+Int SP, advances either bard or cleric spellcasting, gets bardic music (called Comedic Performance), uses CP to inspire courage, enrage enemies and tell lame jokes that kill.
they also learn to boost their illusions thru Turn Undead, disguise their spells, and bluff people into using their AoO
Fatalis_902
08-29-06, 11:30 AM Loremasters still can't learn druidic, people. It says any new language, but then, the human bonus language list says Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). In other words, THERE IS NO WAY TO LEARN DRUIDIC OTHER THAN TO BE A DRUID! Give up on that point, and find something else. Or, you could go druid/bard, learn Druidic, qualify, and have awesome spells as well as the Fochlucan Lyrist and Bard stuff.
flipoflak92
08-29-06, 11:46 AM I'm not so sure fatalis. Under the bonus languages special ability section under the Loremaster, It reads and I quote " the lore master can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level"

declan
Polaris
08-29-06, 12:07 PM fatalis,

Not only can a Loremaster learn Druidic at 4th and 8th level (there is NOTHING in the rules that say they can not), they can also learn it at first by blowing a "secret" one of which is "4 ranks in ANY skill" and speak languages is a skill.

-Polaris
Beckett
08-29-06, 01:12 PM Level two Druid.
Get yourself level drained.
Get a Level in Bard.
So your are a Druid 1, Bard 1.
Get yourself level drained again.
Lose another Druid Level.
Go to know Druidic as a fallen 0 level Druid. . .
Reversefigure4
08-30-06, 01:15 AM fatalis,

Not only can a Loremaster learn Druidic at 4th and 8th level (there is NOTHING in the rules that say they can not), they can also learn it at first by blowing a "secret" one of which is "4 ranks in ANY skill" and speak languages is a skill.

-Polaris

There's nothing in the rules that say you can't take Druidic by just spending the points, for that matter. Speak Language doesn't specify that you can't...

... but every mention of the Druidic language mentions that it's "secret", "Druid only", or something to that effect. Bonus languages mention that you can't take Druidic. It's only for Druids. You need a Druid to help you learn it.
Polaris
08-30-06, 01:20 AM There's nothing in the rules that say you can't take Druidic by just spending the points, for that matter. Speak Language doesn't specify that you can't...

... but every mention of the Druidic language mentions that it's "secret", "Druid only", or something to that effect. Bonus languages mention that you can't take Druidic. It's only for Druids. You need a Druid to help you learn it.

Incorrect. Read the Loremaster class again. The 4th and 8th level abilities specifically says ANY language, and if a PrC could learn a secret language this way, it would be the loremaster. Think about it.

Bonus languages only apply at character creation. I think you forgot that. As long as it's possible to learn the language, you can spend "Speak Language" ranks to learn it. Normally that requires DM cooperation, but the Loremaster is a specific exception to the rule.

-Polaris
Ashok_Lal
08-30-06, 02:18 AM Make up a PrC & call it the Avangalist!
MadMoly
08-30-06, 02:35 AM Torture the teachings out of them. Then store the druid away on a demi plane where time flows MUCH slower then the Material until you are at least old. Get a scroll of Geas, and use it to make them reincarnate you when you die. Commit suicide. Return druid to said plane.

MadMoly
Legdiwena
08-30-06, 04:41 AM I wouldn't allow it, loophole that violates spirit of rules

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NiT 08-26-06, 08:11 AM	Ok, so I am working on deciding on how to make my first character (or at least one of my first. For my first game which starts here as soon as my to be group finishes their last quest, I have been considering a few different ones to try, but I am really liking this one right now). I want to make a gnome bard/cleric. He is usually a happy go lucky character, but is very protective of his friends. A healer/buffer guy with kinda a trickster undercut. Anyway, so the abilities I had wanted to focus on were his bardic music and his clerical spell casting. I was kinda planning on making him a Virtuoso and using the +1 level of existing spell casting class for clerical magic, but when I finally got the book in the mail (I had just been looking the class up online), I noticed it was for specifically an arcane spell class. So I started looking for other options in the book (I just got the Complete Adventurer), for one that would let me do the same type of thing were I keep going in bardic music as well as clerical spell casting, and I came across the Fochlucan Lyrist, but it requires Speak Language (Druidic). So I guess my question is three fold. 1) Is either of these prestige classes capable of doing what I want? 2) If I wanted to go for the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class is there any way to get Druidic language without actually taking levels in druid class (and thus incurring an XP penalty on top of using up levels)? 3) Is there a better option for a prestige class for what I want? Like I said, this is my first character, so I am a little hesitant to bend the rules even if I asked the DM for permission. The only books I have are the core and the Complete Adventurers Guild, though I could probably use the rest of my group's books (though I am not sure what all they have...). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Nit (Newbie in Training)
serow_#R 08-26-06, 09:12 AM	3) Divine Prankster from Races of Stone, a prestige class for Gnome Bard/Clerics
Reversefigure4 08-26-06, 08:39 PM	- I'd recommend a straight bard instead. Bards can heal, although not as well as a Cleric... but Bards can use any healing wands or scrolls too (and Use Magic Device lets you pick up another nifty spells). A Bard Cleric will likely be quite weak. - By the Rules as Written, the only way to learn Druidic is to take a level in Druid. Your DM may let you get around this with a bit of an adventure. There's a story posted around the boards I read about a Rogue who disguised himself as a Druid and infiltrated a Druid settlement, then stayed there a month using the spell Tongues to fit in and learn the language. - If you want to go Foc. Lyricist, take the Druid level last (just before you enter the Prc), and you should only incur penalities for that single level (I think... I may be wrong on this).
X-Codes 08-26-06, 11:44 PM	The Speak Language skill does not say you can't learn Druidic with it if you aren't a druid. Of course, considering the fact that it's a secret language the DM is well within his rights to make you work for it. You are usually better off taking levels in Druid; because Druids have an awesome spell list.
Reversefigure4 08-27-06, 08:23 PM	The Speak Language skill does not say you can't learn Druidic with it if you aren't a druid. Er, yes it does. Quite clearly. On the table of languages, it states "Druidic - Druids (only)" as speakers. Only Druids can speak Druidic, and are forbidden to teach it to non-Druids. There's plenty of underhanded ways to go about it - find an ex-Druid selling his services, impersonate a Druid until you learn the language, find enough written Druidic and decipher script until you can eventually learn it, use Wish to be allowed to speak it, etc, etc... but you'll need DM co-operation for all of them.
NiT 08-28-06, 12:48 AM	3) Divine Prankster from Races of Stone, a prestige class for Gnome Bard/Clerics Since I don't have that book here could you give me a quick overview of this class? I mean what would it do? The name itself sounds cool, but I have nothing else to go on...
Solik 08-28-06, 12:56 AM	Does home-brew stuff fly in your campaign? I've got a PrC in my sig that you might be able to adjust for your particular deity.
Polaris 08-28-06, 02:31 AM	Guys, 1 or 2 levels of Loremaster will also give you Druidic and there isn't any DM cooperation required on that one. -Polaris
MadMoly 08-28-06, 05:00 AM	It could be an alignment issue, but get your hands on BoVD and i think there is a section on torture. You then just have to capture a druid and 'convince' him to teach you. As either a bard or cleric, you know you have access to healing spells to keep him from dieing on you. Hey, and since you have no use for a newly fallen ex-druid, and we're in the BoVD, take an item creation feat and bottle some pain ;) MadMoly
Rotipher 08-28-06, 12:08 PM	Always an option: tell your DM what you want to do with your PC. If you've got a good reason, the gamemaster ought to be willing to modify an existing PrC to suit your needs -- altering the Lyrist to make it a cleric/bard hybrid rather than a druid/bard one, for example, or simply broadening the Virtuoso's options so that new casting-levels can be devoted to divine magic as well -- or to work with you to design an entirely new one. Heck, that's one of the things PrCs are for! Just don't try to make it a super-butt-kicker class, and a reasonable DM shouldn't object to your request. Your PC will probably take a while to gain the levels necessary for any PrC, in any case, so you and the DM will have some time to decide on the changes.
2nd Ed Paladin 08-28-06, 12:51 PM	- - If you want to go Foc. Lyricist, take the Druid level last (just before you enter the Prc), and you should only incur penalities for that single level (I think... I may be wrong on this). I believe the penalty would apply after that level. The XP penalty applies until the situation has been corrected. I would speak to your DM about changinf the Virtuoso do be a divine class. I can't see how iot would affect the balance of the class in any way. If you really don't want to alter the rules I would go straight bard (as they get divine spells.
Polaris 08-28-06, 02:31 PM	:nonono: Bards do not get divine spells. They get arcane healing spells which is another animal entirely. -Polaris
2nd Ed Paladin 08-28-06, 02:45 PM	Bards do not get divine spells. They get arcane healing spells which is another animal entirely. -Polaris You say tomato (tuh-mey-toh) I say tomato (tuh-mah-toh). Not really relevant to the discussion.
Polaris 08-28-06, 02:53 PM	You say tomato (tuh-mey-toh) I say tomato (tuh-mah-toh). Not really relevant to the discussion. I couldn't disagree more. If there were no difference, then the OP would not have a problem finding a good PrC for this purpose. Divine Spells are very different from Arcane ones and healing is the least of it. OP, if I were you I'd take a look at the Mystic Theurge and Foc. Lyrist and then talk to your DM about a custom PrC made from those examples. -Polaris
2nd Ed Paladin 08-28-06, 03:09 PM	I guess I'll give you that one (grumble, grumble). I did mean to say that a straight bard will fulfil the objectives the OP indicated as it can buff, heal and provide the tricksy aspect.
NiT 08-29-06, 02:12 AM	Thanks everyone. I think I will try and do the Lormaster in order to learn Druidic. I appricate the input.
Beckett 08-29-06, 02:22 AM	In an evil came, we convinced a player Druid, to teach a Bardish character Druidic, in game. The DM rulled he should have known that he was violating his oath by doing so, as he was not dominated, or charmed, and had played a Druid before. He qualified for the FoLy at a really really low level, withought any Druid Levels.
serow_#R 08-29-06, 04:44 AM	Since I don't have that book here could you give me a quick overview of this class? I mean what would it do? The name itself sounds cool, but I have nothing else to go on... IIRC, it adds bardic music, +1 divine spellcasting every level, 6+ (or 4+) Int SP, and has several class features that involves "playing pranks" on others. I'll write more when I get home.
Beckett 08-29-06, 05:28 AM	there is one in the War of the Lance setting book. It basically uses some Bard skills and abilities to biuld a more social Cleric, but adds Bards spells to their Divine list. For the most part, it is a sort of slow build, but increases Divine spellcasting and grants some more bardlike options.
serow_#R 08-29-06, 10:45 AM	alright, the brief of the divine prankster for Gnome Bard/Cleric multiclass, d6, 6+Int SP, advances either bard or cleric spellcasting, gets bardic music (called Comedic Performance), uses CP to inspire courage, enrage enemies and tell lame jokes that kill. they also learn to boost their illusions thru Turn Undead, disguise their spells, and bluff people into using their AoO
Fatalis_902 08-29-06, 11:30 AM	Loremasters still can't learn druidic, people. It says any new language, but then, the human bonus language list says Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). In other words, THERE IS NO WAY TO LEARN DRUIDIC OTHER THAN TO BE A DRUID! Give up on that point, and find something else. Or, you could go druid/bard, learn Druidic, qualify, and have awesome spells as well as the Fochlucan Lyrist and Bard stuff.
flipoflak92 08-29-06, 11:46 AM	I'm not so sure fatalis. Under the bonus languages special ability section under the Loremaster, It reads and I quote " the lore master can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level" declan
Polaris 08-29-06, 12:07 PM	fatalis, Not only can a Loremaster learn Druidic at 4th and 8th level (there is NOTHING in the rules that say they can not), they can also learn it at first by blowing a "secret" one of which is "4 ranks in ANY skill" and speak languages is a skill. -Polaris
Beckett 08-29-06, 01:12 PM	Level two Druid. Get yourself level drained. Get a Level in Bard. So your are a Druid 1, Bard 1. Get yourself level drained again. Lose another Druid Level. Go to know Druidic as a fallen 0 level Druid. . .
Reversefigure4 08-30-06, 01:15 AM	fatalis, Not only can a Loremaster learn Druidic at 4th and 8th level (there is NOTHING in the rules that say they can not), they can also learn it at first by blowing a "secret" one of which is "4 ranks in ANY skill" and speak languages is a skill. -Polaris There's nothing in the rules that say you can't take Druidic by just spending the points, for that matter. Speak Language doesn't specify that you can't... ... but every mention of the Druidic language mentions that it's "secret", "Druid only", or something to that effect. Bonus languages mention that you can't take Druidic. It's only for Druids. You need a Druid to help you learn it.
Polaris 08-30-06, 01:20 AM	There's nothing in the rules that say you can't take Druidic by just spending the points, for that matter. Speak Language doesn't specify that you can't... ... but every mention of the Druidic language mentions that it's "secret", "Druid only", or something to that effect. Bonus languages mention that you can't take Druidic. It's only for Druids. You need a Druid to help you learn it. Incorrect. Read the Loremaster class again. The 4th and 8th level abilities specifically says ANY language, and if a PrC could learn a secret language this way, it would be the loremaster. Think about it. Bonus languages only apply at character creation. I think you forgot that. As long as it's possible to learn the language, you can spend "Speak Language" ranks to learn it. Normally that requires DM cooperation, but the Loremaster is a specific exception to the rule. -Polaris
Ashok_Lal 08-30-06, 02:18 AM	Make up a PrC & call it the Avangalist!
MadMoly 08-30-06, 02:35 AM	Torture the teachings out of them. Then store the druid away on a demi plane where time flows MUCH slower then the Material until you are at least old. Get a scroll of Geas, and use it to make them reincarnate you when you die. Commit suicide. Return druid to said plane. MadMoly
Legdiwena 08-30-06, 04:41 AM	I wouldn't allow it, loophole that violates spirit of rules