Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paradoxmage 01-24-05, 04:14 AM	What are some personal codes a LN monk would live up to?
penchant 01-24-05, 04:48 AM	Take it from Buddism. While it is a religion of peace, it really is neutral in nature. Basics without going in to deep philosophy: Desire is the source of all suffering. Karma is the result off all action. Action both defines and results from Karma. To kill anything is wrong. Everything has a karma to fulfil, and to interfere with that disturbs the balance of the world. Most other restrictions like pride, wealth, love, hate etc. stem from these core beliefs. Alternatively, you could have an order stem from a wartorn reigon that has taken upon itself to bring peace through war. The monastary trains warrior monks to incite disorder in all factions so the Order can kill the leaders of both groups and unite them as a whole. The monastaries head then writes out a law and having no greed and selfish desires would set out an entirely lawful society. These would be 'ends justify the means' kind of group and the PC monks would be overtly trying to stop the BBEG and secretly undermine or infiltrate the good government. There are alot of ways to look at LN.
Callista 01-24-05, 06:49 AM	The stereotypical monk has a LN "code" that encompasses personal discipline--mastery of himself foremost, body and mind.
paradoxmage 01-25-05, 02:47 AM	Desire is the source of all suffering This is good, But what in D&D is not based on desire? If my monk lived up to this then he would have never left the monistary. To adventure is a desire. Karma is the result off all action. Action both defines and results from Karma. This will def be one, thanks. Can you give a few examples? To kill anything is wrong. Everything has a karma to fulfill, and to interfere with that disturbs the balance of the world. This will work if I say it pertains to only civilized races. Otherwise my party will prob kick him out trying to keep the rampaging giant from being killed. When you say ANYTHING should it really pertain to everything? Even the BBEG, or is that to extreme? mastery of himself foremost Can you expand on this more? What does this prevent him from doing? What lines won’t he cross? Will he help no one, only caring about his advancement? That seems very NE to me.
Callista 01-25-05, 03:29 AM	Personal discipline? Well, here's some things that could show that: The monk gets up every day as soon as the sun rises (or perhaps before) to meditate/pray/practice. He's very orderly in the way he keeps his personal possessions. The way he dresses is simple and practical, not flamboyant. He doesn't overeat; doesn't drink too much; doesn't over-do anything. Moderation itself is a form of discipline (not to mention common sense). "Lawful" can also mean someone that thinks of life in terms of what he does for the community. Now, in the case of a LN person, that won't be in terms of altruism; rather, he'll be focused on keeping order. If someone hires him to round up a group of rebels attempting to change the laws by force, that's right up his alley. In addition to keeping order within himself, this monk also believes in an ordered society. He'll advocate his own principles to others; maybe he attempts to attract disciples to learn what he knows; perhaps he simply tries to lead by example. He probably respects--maybe to an extreme degree--those who are in authority over him. "Lawful" also might mean that the monk is a traditionalist. He doesn't believe in "new, quick, easy, cheap" things. Think of him as a political/religious/social conservative: He believes that the way things have been is the way they ought to stay, because that's what has been working all along. If he advocates change, it's probably because there is disorder in the system (for example, corrupt government officers) and he wishes to rectify it. Remember, though, that Lawful Neutral characters do not need to be perfectly Lawful Neutral. They can have Chaotic tendencies and work hard at stamping them out; they can have cruel streaks towards those who are disorganized, disrespectful, or rebellious. Or maybe they lean towards Lawful Good, with the idea that discipline is the best way for a society to be happy and prosperous. Whatever you decide, though, stay away from stereotypes. Make yours an individual, within the Lawful guideline. Be careful that he *is* Lawful, or you'll have alignment problems later--"My character would do this, but if he does, he'll act out of alignment... so I'll have to have him do something he wouldn't"... very uncomfortable choice either way. LN characters are not perfect; Monks are not perfect. Give him character quirks and flaws just like you would any other character (again, within the bounds of Lawful). He could be proud... he could look down his nose at those whom he considers undisciplined. Or he could be the opposite--perhaps he doesn't quite trust his abilities. If he has that evil streak, maybe he's aware of it and fighting hard against it--or unaware of it and slowly being drawn in. Maybe he's naturally disorganized; and so finds it difficult to uphold a monk's life, much as he wants to (beware alignment change if you try this one--just make sure your character keeps trying and you'll be fine). What purpose in life does your character have?--and don't just say, "To become more powerful". Perhaps he has ideals to spread. Perhaps he has a specific foe he fights. Perhaps he sees himself as a member of a bigger group, upholding their way of life. Or maybe he's dedicated to learning--seeing as much as he can, analyzing it, writing it down, perhaps to return to his superiors with the information. Whatever you do, good luck.
Draco Strang 01-25-05, 05:19 AM	Simply put, the LN monk would probably be the consummate "yes man". Living up to a personal code is hard enough, but when subjected to a community's laws and regulations, he would follow them to the letter and work hard to make sure that everyone else does. Maybe stationed with the local constabulatory or sheriff's office as a general troubleshooter and special agent, he would do a sort of milita duty for his monastary, serving the community that he lives in. Granted, he probably wouldn't enforce every little traffic law and jay walking offense, but on issues more serious than say, littering and public intoxication, would obey the law to the letter and make sure that everyone else did too.
alecthemad 01-25-05, 11:34 PM	Simply put, the LN monk would probably be the consummate "yes man". Living up to a personal code is hard enough, but when subjected to a community's laws and regulations, he would follow them to the letter and work hard to make sure that everyone else does. That is a false statement. A character can be truely lawful neutral but never follow the laws of his land. Lawfulness indicates a desire for order, that order can come from personal codes (ala the Paladin or Bushido) or it can come from tradition, or from laws. Neutralness only indicates that there is no preference given to the good or evil. Lawful Neutral indicates that a person who follows a code is not concerned with the rightness or wrongness of the code. For example, I once played a LG monk whose lawfulness came from the code of his monastery. The code rigidly dictated times for exercises, eating, performing work (farming, adventuring, writing), the types of persons who should be assisted (usually the poor and oppresed). It only took a few games before the whole group understood the monk's credo and joined in a chorus of "It is now time for..." whenever the monk's code dictated something. The laws of the land were not important unless his creed said so. A LN monk could easily have a similar code which state that he only assists persons who will pay him regardless of their means or desires. He can break the law if in following his code he is hired to do so (e.g. theft of a precious item or holding off the Baron's tax collectors). His code could even dictate his renumeration and how it is to be spent. I think that the "law" in Lawful tend to throw people off. It is meant to be an antithesis to Chaos, so perhaps Order would be a better word. You can be chaotic and follow the law but in everything else you are rather scattershot. "I spend my reward on ale and *****s." As far as making others follow those laws LN does not require that either. In fact a LN can have rules or a personal code that is only for certain persons (like monks of a certain order) or for certain situations (only virgins for dragons). A monk could be very rigid but really not care how chaotic everyone else acts. In fact it may be a point of pride.
Draco Strang 01-26-05, 12:39 AM	Ya see, this is where I disagree with you. Monks are lawful, as everyone knows. Law is the opposite of chaos. Sure, they follow their own personal code before everything else, but still, the law of the land is something to be obeyed and enforced. After all, if everyone followed their own personal codes to the exclusion of a common, binding set of laws, then how would society be anything but an anarchy?
penchant 01-26-05, 03:20 AM	This is good, But what in D&D is not based on desire? If my monk lived up to this then he would have never left the monistary. To adventure is a desire. Enlightenment through tests of the world is the goal of the monk. Not for material gain but through self improvement. This will def be one, thanks. Can you give a few examples? Karma is the idea that every action you take has a consequence and affects everything around you. This extends into the next life and comes from the prevous (assumes a belief in reincarnation) Essentially this means you are always considering your actions and explains the reason why you are so lawful. This will work if I say it pertains to only civilized races. Otherwise my party will prob kick him out trying to keep the rampaging giant from being killed. When you say ANYTHING should it really pertain to everything? Even the BBEG, or is that to extreme? While you would believe that killing a creature would interfere with its karma, interfering with other people's ability to kill would interfere with THEIR karma. So they can cause mass genocide around you and you would not necessarily try to stop them. You might counsel them that it would be a bad idea. Essentially just go with the flow and follow your karma (What the DM wants you to do) As far as monsters go, you could decide that they are unnatural creations and that they interfere with the natural karma of the world. Kililng them would not go against your code as you are restoring the natural order. That's up to you and your DM to work out. However intelligent humanoids would definitely be a bad thing to kill under this concept. Doing Subdual damage whenever possible and using imprisonment would be the safe alternative.
alecthemad 01-26-05, 02:15 PM	Ya see, this is where I disagree with you. Monks are lawful, as everyone knows. Law is the opposite of chaos. Sure, they follow their own personal code before everything else, but still, the law of the land is something to be obeyed and enforced. After all, if everyone followed their own personal codes to the exclusion of a common, binding set of laws, then how would society be anything but an anarchy? The fallacy of your argument is in confusing law abiding with lawful in alignment. They do not need to coincide, though they often do. But an important distinction exists between the person who follows the law and a person who lives an ordered (lawful) life. Let us look at a lawful evil monk. He may believe that as a member of his order he is superior to all other persons. That only the code of his monastery is important. So he could go breaking the law but not his code and still remain lawful in alignment. The converse may apply to a lawful good monk, he may believe that as a member of his order he is required to assist the downtrodden. So when entering an evil lords lands he sets about foiling that lord's tax collectors and soldiers. These are illegal acts, but his code demands them so in adhereing to it he is still lawful in alignment. So going back to my example of the LN monk it is not necessary to obey the law to be considered Lawful in alignment. He may not be a law abiding person, but he is lawful in alignment.
Draco Strang 01-26-05, 10:09 PM	So going back to my example of the LN monk it is not necessary to obey the law to be considered Lawful in alignment. He may not be a law abiding person, but he is lawful in alignment. Let's agree to disagree. You play them your way, I'll play them mine, and we'll just deal with this broken system we call alignment.
TigerWolfe 01-26-05, 10:50 PM	or you could be a monk who goes toward self enlightenment by pleasure eat alot wear flamboyent clothing laugh have fun etc... always thought that would be an interesting idea for a monk sect
penchant 01-27-05, 01:12 AM	Ah. Hedonism was an actual philosophical movement. I could definitely see a religion based on that, but it was a pretty chaotic movement that happened during the renaissance. Such a thing could not support a monastic dedication and therefore monks.
TigerWolfe 01-27-05, 06:58 PM	it could be lawful if there were rules behind it like you can only get so drunk at one time or so on
penchant 01-28-05, 02:56 AM	How lawful were you the last time you got drunk?
TigerWolfe 01-28-05, 05:59 PM	thats why you learn stuff to keep from being drunk beyone control it could work it'd just take alot of thought to work it out and you could have special monks in the order who abstain from all the fun stuff just to help the others keep within the boundrys
RunningWilder 01-29-05, 03:31 AM	What are some personal codes a LN monk would live up to? 1. Live by the code of the martial arts (introspect, hardwork, dedication) 2. Never fight unless someone else starts. 3. Always stick together, no mater what. 4. When all else fails, then its time to kick butt. Uh... chest infections, cough medicine and too much Teletoon are a bad combination.
psionichamster 01-29-05, 08:28 AM	T U R T L E POWER!!!! yay TMNT... as far as a LN monk: calm, ascetic, generally peaceful when something needs punching, it gets punched to the nines... no half-way measures here... think Li Mu Bai (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), Wong Fe Hung (once upon a time in china, chinese folk hero), or the nameless one from Hero. the 1st two are def. LG...going out of their way to help people, etc... nameless is pretty LN. relentless in his pursuit of the ultimate art merciless to the "evil-doers" cares deeply about the wrongs he's "forced" to commit honestly feels bad about doing bad things, but does them to promote good things that will override them. ie, spares the emperor when his death would plunge china into another bloody civil war, even though it meant his death and the ravishment of his "country"
paradoxmage 01-29-05, 08:47 PM	The monk gets up every day as soon as the sun rises (or perhaps before) to meditate/pray/practice. He's very orderly in the way he keeps his personal possessions. The way he dresses is simple and practical, not flamboyant. He doesn't overeat; doesn't drink too much; doesn't over-do anything. Unless there is a cleric in the party (there isn't) we dont really keep track of the time (unless important, and this is 4th session and it han't). When we do, I may. We have been makeing our way into a city (but had to enter a place called the Boggs, located below the city which is DM made, and in Faerun. Located on the Dragoncoast.), The city above is called called Outhaven (spaning 10 miles wide and vertical), It is a floating city w/3 seperate pieces (It is said to be the richest city in Faerun, Even more than Calimshan, Waterdeep etc...). Each piece is seperate from each other, Each above the other, floating (I Assume each layer is a hiarchey of power, But dont know yet). This grand city is also guarded in way's (and apparantly alive, rivers that heal to the chosen, and abilities to the chosen by the city). Directly guarding the city is a certain time frame to even aproach (Dawn only), And by pegasus riding (very high level) Moring loards of Lathander (like all 10 levels or more). Other than that all I know is you can only enter it at dawn (both boggs, and outhaven) at dawn, And need special jewls (which I aquired a bag of 6 for the party, Diplomacy is great, And a little gold left over from creation). This is only the first day, There is a whole lot more (this dosent even scratch the surface on the first session and we are on the 5th, started at 1st level). A character can be truely lawful neutral but never follow the laws of his land. Lawfulness indicates a desire for order, that order can come from personal codes (ala the Paladin or Bushido) or it can come from tradition, or from laws I believe this wholeheartedly, Lawful IMO has nothing to do with the laws of man/women/land ;) . Order is a good way to go, But is hard with such chaos that exist in Faerun (I may need to become either LE or a chaotic alighnment to take warlock, But I am taking warlock for flavor because of the devil/demon blood). I dont believe this character would believe in slavery, even if it was the law of the land. In addition to keeping order within himself, this monk also believes in an ordered society. He'll advocate his own principles to others; maybe he attempts to attract disciples to learn what he knows; perhaps he simply tries to lead by example. He probably respects--maybe to an extreme degree--those who are in authority over him. I am currently with a rogue (every party member got split up at the second session, Not because the DM wanted us to) who I met a couple sessions ago (NPC, Rescued me well after I gave him some (MW) thief tools I found earlier). I have little chance in the Boggs to find any disciples, And I know little as a 4th level character. I have no authority over me persay (maybe these lathander's). Enlightenment through tests of the world is the goal of the monk. Not for material gain but through self improvement. Good answer oh wise one ;) . While you would believe that killing a creature would interfere with its karma, interfering with other people's ability to kill would interfere with THEIR karma. Yes but I believe that we have established that a LN character would care little for other wellfare unless they are being oppressed (mass murder is evil and is a natural thing for creatures like giants (for example), And maybe lawful to some). or you could be a monk who goes toward self enlightenment by pleasure eat alot wear flamboyent clothing laugh have fun etc... Na this guy can look like he wants, But tries to be the unknown (never spotted as who he is cause is Fey'ri tries to survive and strikes hard if needs to) How lawful were you the last time you got drunk? Speeding, drunken stooper. Oh wait, maybe that was a dream, LOL. 1. Live by the code of the martial arts (introspect, hardwork, dedication) 2. Never fight unless someone else starts. 3. Always stick together, no mater what. 4. When all else fails, then its time to kick butt BAM! This is it. Couldnt have said it any better. Thanks :) :D :) :D