Cohort INSANITY: Serious help needed with ECL and LEADERSHIP feat. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cohort INSANITY: Serious help needed with ECL and LEADERSHIP feat. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hvitar-Hrafnar
02-12-06, 06:48 PM I posted a thread on here recently about chaos using and figuring out the Stormwrack rules. After a quick response, I decided that it was worth posting some problems with the rules in the DMG and MM dealing with what my Player Character can have as a Cohort using the Undead Leadership feat presented in Libris Mortis.

My 10th-level character [With a 12 ECL] has a 14 leadership score, meaning the maximum level cohort he could gain is a 10th-level Cohort. Because I have the Undead Leadership feat instead, I would have to attract a 10th-level Undead Cohort, along with the dozens of zombie or skeleton thralls.

I found an sample undead character sheet on page 166 of Libris Mortis, talking about Rafira, the Doppelganger Vampire with levels in Rogue/Assassin. I see that she is a 9th Challenge Rating and believe all I need to do is add 1 more level of Assassin to make her the most powerful cohort I can achieve. As ironic as it is, Rafira in the book is also the cohort/minion of a Vampire who sired her.

So I worked on the character sheet in the program called PCGEN for quite awhile, getting the maximum amount of power I could out of a 5th level character [2 levels in Rogue, 3 levels in Assassin, not including 9 Monstrous Humanoid levels from the Doppelganger race]. Then when I look at her ECL, I see a 21st level. It's so outrageous I can't believe it.

After doing some calculations, she is subject:
+4 Levels of Monstrous Humanoid
+3 Levels of Rogue
+2 Levels of Assassin
+4 Level Adjustment [Doppelganger]
+8 Level Adjustment [Vampire Template]
Total: 21st Effective Character Level

I look back to the leadership feat and see that it mentions a 10th level character as the most powerful Cohort I can currently get. When I read the Undead Leadership feat in Libris Mortis, it says the ECL has to be within that range instead.

My issue now is deciding if Rafira can be my Cohort or not, using the Undead Leadership feat as a 10th-level character with a +4 charisma bonus, for a 14 Leadership Score.

My other issue is figuring out what the hell Wizard's was thinking when they put together the ECL rules. A calculated that Rafira is a 21st ECL, yet in that case, a player with the Leadership feat would need to be a minimum of 22nd level with something like a +8 charisma bonus to have a puny 9 CR creature as their cohort when they could have a 20 CR Epic Cohort instead! Yet the Leadership chart on page 106 of the DM guide shows that a 25+ Leadership Score cannot have a Cohort over 17th level, although they would have at minimum 135 1st level followers, 13 2nd level followers, 7 3rd level followers, 4 4th level followers, 2 5th level followers, and 2 6th level followers.

What on earth is wrong with these rules? Can Rafira actually be my Cohort? I know my character could easily defeat her in combat, yet she is "Effectively" 11 levels higher than me, but a lower challenge rating. None of this makes any sense, so please give all the help that you can.
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-12-06, 06:57 PM Short answer: No, you can't have her as your cohort.
Longer answer: No, you still can't have her as your cohort; yes, template ECLs and CRs are screwy; no, CR and ECL are not related to one another. If you want to work out the most powerful corhort you can actually have, take it to the Character Optimization board (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339). They're a lot more interested in and practiced with the number-crunching and power combinations than the average user.
GaffeR
02-12-06, 06:59 PM Rafira is ECL 21. You are ECL 12. With undead leadership, your max ECL cohort is 10. Rafira more than DOUBLES allowable ECL for a cohort. So no, you can't have her.

Though Leadership, by RAW, would let you have a cohort with 10 class levels and as much LA and HD as you wanted, any sane DM would likely smack you with the PHB for trying it. I think this is one of those "intention of the rules" things.

As far as CR vs ECL goes, they are calculated VERY differently.

Vampire:
Challenge Rating
Same as the base creature +2.

Level Adjustment
Same as the base creature +8.

See what i mean? It discourages players from making horribly overpowered characters, like vampire doppleganger assassins, because the value of the template to a monster is not nearly as high as to a player.
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-12-06, 07:04 PM Though Leadership, by RAW, would let you have a cohort with 10 class levels and as much LA and HD as you wanted, any sane DM would likely smack you with the PHB for trying it. I think this is one of those "intention of the rules" things.
I don't know whether this loophole is actually in the RAW, but he's using Undead Leadership and that version narrows it at least as far as ignoring template LA for undead cohorts go. The table given puts vampire cohorts at ECL 8 + HD.
Hvitar-Hrafnar
02-12-06, 07:12 PM Well, the idea for the Vampire Doppelganger was in Libris Mortis. It just seems ridiculous that because of ECL, I can't have a Cohort who is, in effect, [NOT ECL], quite a bit weaker than I am. I know that my character alone without any of his "friends" or "pets" is easily stronger. It just doesn't make sense.

Now it is starting to seem like Undead Leadership was a bad idea. No idea what I'm able to have that is strong enough for my character but doesn't add on a huge level adjustment or give my cohort an outrageous ECL. Maybe I'll just make a Necropolitan.
GaffeR
02-12-06, 07:19 PM I don't know whether this loophole is actually in the RAW, but he's using Undead Leadership and that version narrows it at least as far as ignoring template LA for undead cohorts go. The table given puts vampire cohorts at ECL 8 + HD.
From the SRD, under Leadership

"Cohort Level

The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself."

Emphasis mine (no mention of ECL, templates, HD, or LA).

I realize the OP is using undead leadership. I dont see where it states that UL ignores template LA. The vampire cohort listed on table 2-2 in the LM does state the vampire cohort as ECL 8+HD. Thus, if the OP's ECL is 12, he can have a vampire cohort with 2 class levels for ECL 10.
Surgo
02-12-06, 07:28 PM Yes, ECL and CR are very, very screwy. Just look at the vampire, which you already have. And leadership just expounds on this screwiness as a paragon, pseudonatural, vampire, half-fiend kobold is still a kobold even though its CR is through the roof.
Hvitar-Hrafnar
02-13-06, 02:41 PM The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself."

Emphasis mine (no mention of ECL, templates, HD, or LA).

I noticed that, too. It seemed to me the same way, but once you got calculating in it and didn't restrict templates, you could easily make a character stronger than yourself by just applying a dozen or so templates.

I've decided on a new cohort idea, but templates are confusing me. I've used them plenty in the past, but the requirements are brief, to say the least. Does a template that requires a Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, such as Huecuva also allow an Outsider to take it? Why only those two races, as you may have a magical beast that is also a strong Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Monk?

My idea for the cohort is to add a template or two to the cohort, which would be the same race as my character, and as the race is extremely rare, give the DM more reason for me to meet this cohort. The problem is that my race [Shadar-Zaantu, homebrew based off of the Shadar-Kai in Fiend Folio] is an Outsider, and therefore cannot take any of the templates in any book I have, because none of them allow outsiders to take a template. I can't find any templates for a Fey either. None exist to make a Magical Beast cohort undead, either, as they all require some sort of humanoid it seems, except for the Umbral template, which isn't worth it. What is wrong with this?

I'm starting to feel like making the strongest Cohort possible is more work than it's worth. Maybe I should just post on the Character Optimization forum for some help?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hvitar-Hrafnar 02-12-06, 06:48 PM	I posted a thread on here recently about chaos using and figuring out the Stormwrack rules. After a quick response, I decided that it was worth posting some problems with the rules in the DMG and MM dealing with what my Player Character can have as a Cohort using the Undead Leadership feat presented in Libris Mortis. My 10th-level character [With a 12 ECL] has a 14 leadership score, meaning the maximum level cohort he could gain is a 10th-level Cohort. Because I have the Undead Leadership feat instead, I would have to attract a 10th-level Undead Cohort, along with the dozens of zombie or skeleton thralls. I found an sample undead character sheet on page 166 of Libris Mortis, talking about Rafira, the Doppelganger Vampire with levels in Rogue/Assassin. I see that she is a 9th Challenge Rating and believe all I need to do is add 1 more level of Assassin to make her the most powerful cohort I can achieve. As ironic as it is, Rafira in the book is also the cohort/minion of a Vampire who sired her. So I worked on the character sheet in the program called PCGEN for quite awhile, getting the maximum amount of power I could out of a 5th level character [2 levels in Rogue, 3 levels in Assassin, not including 9 Monstrous Humanoid levels from the Doppelganger race]. Then when I look at her ECL, I see a 21st level. It's so outrageous I can't believe it. After doing some calculations, she is subject: +4 Levels of Monstrous Humanoid +3 Levels of Rogue +2 Levels of Assassin +4 Level Adjustment [Doppelganger] +8 Level Adjustment [Vampire Template] Total: 21st Effective Character Level I look back to the leadership feat and see that it mentions a 10th level character as the most powerful Cohort I can currently get. When I read the Undead Leadership feat in Libris Mortis, it says the ECL has to be within that range instead. My issue now is deciding if Rafira can be my Cohort or not, using the Undead Leadership feat as a 10th-level character with a +4 charisma bonus, for a 14 Leadership Score. My other issue is figuring out what the hell Wizard's was thinking when they put together the ECL rules. A calculated that Rafira is a 21st ECL, yet in that case, a player with the Leadership feat would need to be a minimum of 22nd level with something like a +8 charisma bonus to have a puny 9 CR creature as their cohort when they could have a 20 CR Epic Cohort instead! Yet the Leadership chart on page 106 of the DM guide shows that a 25+ Leadership Score cannot have a Cohort over 17th level, although they would have at minimum 135 1st level followers, 13 2nd level followers, 7 3rd level followers, 4 4th level followers, 2 5th level followers, and 2 6th level followers. What on earth is wrong with these rules? Can Rafira actually be my Cohort? I know my character could easily defeat her in combat, yet she is "Effectively" 11 levels higher than me, but a lower challenge rating. None of this makes any sense, so please give all the help that you can.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-12-06, 06:57 PM	Short answer: No, you can't have her as your cohort. Longer answer: No, you still can't have her as your cohort; yes, template ECLs and CRs are screwy; no, CR and ECL are not related to one another. If you want to work out the most powerful corhort you can actually have, take it to the Character Optimization board (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339). They're a lot more interested in and practiced with the number-crunching and power combinations than the average user.
GaffeR 02-12-06, 06:59 PM	Rafira is ECL 21. You are ECL 12. With undead leadership, your max ECL cohort is 10. Rafira more than DOUBLES allowable ECL for a cohort. So no, you can't have her. Though Leadership, by RAW, would let you have a cohort with 10 class levels and as much LA and HD as you wanted, any sane DM would likely smack you with the PHB for trying it. I think this is one of those "intention of the rules" things. As far as CR vs ECL goes, they are calculated VERY differently. Vampire: Challenge Rating Same as the base creature +2. Level Adjustment Same as the base creature +8. See what i mean? It discourages players from making horribly overpowered characters, like vampire doppleganger assassins, because the value of the template to a monster is not nearly as high as to a player.
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-12-06, 07:04 PM	Though Leadership, by RAW, would let you have a cohort with 10 class levels and as much LA and HD as you wanted, any sane DM would likely smack you with the PHB for trying it. I think this is one of those "intention of the rules" things. I don't know whether this loophole is actually in the RAW, but he's using Undead Leadership and that version narrows it at least as far as ignoring template LA for undead cohorts go. The table given puts vampire cohorts at ECL 8 + HD.
Hvitar-Hrafnar 02-12-06, 07:12 PM	Well, the idea for the Vampire Doppelganger was in Libris Mortis. It just seems ridiculous that because of ECL, I can't have a Cohort who is, in effect, [NOT ECL], quite a bit weaker than I am. I know that my character alone without any of his "friends" or "pets" is easily stronger. It just doesn't make sense. Now it is starting to seem like Undead Leadership was a bad idea. No idea what I'm able to have that is strong enough for my character but doesn't add on a huge level adjustment or give my cohort an outrageous ECL. Maybe I'll just make a Necropolitan.
GaffeR 02-12-06, 07:19 PM	I don't know whether this loophole is actually in the RAW, but he's using Undead Leadership and that version narrows it at least as far as ignoring template LA for undead cohorts go. The table given puts vampire cohorts at ECL 8 + HD. From the SRD, under Leadership "Cohort Level The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself." Emphasis mine (no mention of ECL, templates, HD, or LA). I realize the OP is using undead leadership. I dont see where it states that UL ignores template LA. The vampire cohort listed on table 2-2 in the LM does state the vampire cohort as ECL 8+HD. Thus, if the OP's ECL is 12, he can have a vampire cohort with 2 class levels for ECL 10.
Surgo 02-12-06, 07:28 PM	Yes, ECL and CR are very, very screwy. Just look at the vampire, which you already have. And leadership just expounds on this screwiness as a paragon, pseudonatural, vampire, half-fiend kobold is still a kobold even though its CR is through the roof.
Hvitar-Hrafnar 02-13-06, 02:41 PM	The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself." Emphasis mine (no mention of ECL, templates, HD, or LA). I noticed that, too. It seemed to me the same way, but once you got calculating in it and didn't restrict templates, you could easily make a character stronger than yourself by just applying a dozen or so templates. I've decided on a new cohort idea, but templates are confusing me. I've used them plenty in the past, but the requirements are brief, to say the least. Does a template that requires a Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, such as Huecuva also allow an Outsider to take it? Why only those two races, as you may have a magical beast that is also a strong Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Monk? My idea for the cohort is to add a template or two to the cohort, which would be the same race as my character, and as the race is extremely rare, give the DM more reason for me to meet this cohort. The problem is that my race [Shadar-Zaantu, homebrew based off of the Shadar-Kai in Fiend Folio] is an Outsider, and therefore cannot take any of the templates in any book I have, because none of them allow outsiders to take a template. I can't find any templates for a Fey either. None exist to make a Magical Beast cohort undead, either, as they all require some sort of humanoid it seems, except for the Umbral template, which isn't worth it. What is wrong with this? I'm starting to feel like making the strongest Cohort possible is more work than it's worth. Maybe I should just post on the Character Optimization forum for some help?