Post/Author/DateTime	Post
piromaniacson 02-08-07, 11:13 PM	My party basically was in a race against time to get to a cave to reach an artifact and the BBEG shows up just when all of our spells are gone and most of us are unconscious. Does anyone ever think that the DM never has a timeline of when his characters actually reach their destination, they just happen to when the DM feels like.
Serrin 02-08-07, 11:24 PM	Depends on your DM, but I certainly believe it happens.
CowMasterTrojan 02-08-07, 11:48 PM	I can tell you that as a Dm I have run situations where there is no timeline. You just wait for conditions a, b, and c to happen and then X happens. But thats just part of story telling. Imagine if you were hunting down a BBEG, found a loop hole, and got there 1 day early to find that the BBEG was on the toliet. Would that be good for anything other than a few laughs? No. Clearly the BBEG would get screwed over because of the bad situation, and then a carefully crafted villian would be ruined. No DM wants to throw their work away. So sometimes as a DM you dont work with a timeline. Other times you do. It's just part of story telling. A good DM does alittle of both, but if the DM never works with a timeline it doesnt make them a bad DM.
Keiichi_m 02-09-07, 12:39 AM	For me I never have a time line per say. I have "okay, so the players did poor here, took twice as long as needed in (x) battle and spent too much time deliberating, also they spent five minutes argueing about which way to turn... the BBEG gets there first" or they work the enemies and run on ahead my a snap desicion as to the direction, get there get the artifact, and as they're walking out the door the BBEG is getting there. they only bought a couple extra precious seconds/minutes.
KingSpoom 02-09-07, 12:56 AM	I can tell you that as a Dm I have run situations where there is no timeline. You just wait for conditions a, b, and c to happen and then X happens. But thats just part of story telling. Imagine if you were hunting down a BBEG, found a loop hole, and got there 1 day early to find that the BBEG was on the toliet. Would that be good for anything other than a few laughs? No. Clearly the BBEG would get screwed over because of the bad situation, and then a carefully crafted villian would be ruined. No DM wants to throw their work away. So sometimes as a DM you dont work with a timeline. Other times you do. It's just part of story telling. A good DM does alittle of both, but if the DM never works with a timeline it doesnt make them a bad DM. However, as a player, that is exactly what I aim to do sometimes. Yes, the DM spent a bunch of time preparing and this would throw his work away. If he never threw his work away, then why does he have players? I don't like DMs who work without a timeline. Sure, they can have great games, but they're walking on the line already... it doesn't take much to cross it.
xandros2000 02-09-07, 01:22 AM	As a DM, I have done both. Working with a timeline and also working something in when the conditions are right. Sometimes even when I have a timeline, I will change it for a more dramatic timing. I have done this to the players benefit at times too. A memorable situation was when my players released an orc from where the gnolls they were attacking were imprisoning him. The Dwarf hated orcs (obviously) but released the orc anyway. Later they fell into a gnoll ambush. They were severly injured and ran like hell with a battalion of gnolls pursueing them. They ran around a corner and straight into an army of orcs.............. Who it turned out were being led by the one they had released. They were of course let to pass as the orcs attacked the gnolls. I had planned for them to meet the orc and his fellows, but if I would have put it on a strict timeline it would not have been nearly as dramatic as running into them at that exact moment. First thinking they are trapped between an army of orcs and gnolls, and then being actually rescued at the right moment.
CowMasterTrojan 02-09-07, 02:00 AM	However, as a player, that is exactly what I aim to do sometimes. Yes, the DM spent a bunch of time preparing and this would throw his work away. If he never threw his work away, then why does he have players? I don't like DMs who work without a timeline. Sure, they can have great games, but they're walking on the line already... it doesn't take much to cross it. Listen, I can see where you're coming from as a player. You're saying that the party pushes themselves as hard as they can to get somewhere before the BBEG, and the BBEG still shows up right on time. I can see where that would annoy you. Clearly the DM should have some slightly more obvious benifits to getting there faster. However, to say that the story should always run on a timeline is unrealistic in a game of D&D. Often things take longer than expected, and for the PC's to participate in important events the story may have to not run on a timeline. However this can go the otherway too. It's unfortunatly how things have to be. If you disagree, try DMing a long term story. You may change your mind.
Yokomohoyo 02-09-07, 02:12 AM	Dont worry about it... Maybe you hit the condition that if your party was healthy and ready for combat you had to fight the BBEG but since your party was weak and almost dead the DM decided to spare you by leaving your party alone and just taking the artifact... Its called a plot twist.
Matthew77 02-09-07, 08:41 AM	Don't convince your DM to run on a strict timeline. I guarentee you that 95% of the time, strict temporal consistency will be bad for the PCs and make the game less fun. The good guys are supposed to break into the BBEG's sanctum with just enough time left to disrupt his ritual, not show up 2 hours after he has packed up and left with his new spell of ultimate evil because the party member in plate mail slowed their speed to 20 while they rushed to find him.
Sereno 02-09-07, 09:58 AM	The good guys are supposed to break into the BBEG's sanctum with just enough time left to disrupt his ritual, not show up 2 hours after he has packed up and left with his new spell of ultimate evil because the party member in plate mail slowed their speed to 20 while they rushed to find him. Exactly! Most elements of a DMs story move at the speed of plot ... that is things happen when they happen so the story will be lively and interesting and dramatic. The cavern starts to collapse after you enter, so you must find the secret way out; not before you get there, so there's no adventure. The princess gets kidnapped just as you walk past the castle, so you can see what direction the gargoyle is carrying her; not the day before so there's no way to track her. How exciting would the scene in the nightclub in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom be if the ice-bucket had been knocked over AFTER Indy found the diamond and the antidote?
bob_the_great 02-09-07, 10:16 AM	also remember that any BBEG worth anything will be watching you and will not overlook you as a threat. My last DM made us well aware of this, and I always had spells in reserve in case he popped in. His explanation was always something like, "powerful creatures become powerful for a reason. if they're losing they get out alive and they try to fight on their own terms. If they have a good opportunity to get rid of you they will"
Bruunwald 02-09-07, 07:12 PM	You've obviously never read any old adventure modules, or you'd know that just as often as not, the adventure itself tells the DM "the evil wizard will show up just as the party arrives." Hate to break it to you, junior, but that's part and parcel of the game. It's called storytelling. Now, it's true that sometimes we DMs go for a more realistic and highly detailed timeline, wherein certain actions on the part of the PCs lead to situations behind-the-scenes, where the capability of a BBEG to accomplish something is increased or diminished. But if we did that every time, all of our time would be spent looking at watches and counting calendars, and you'd never experience a dramatic moment in the game. Hopefully, you understand how boring that would be. To win by forfeit all the time, because somebody somewhere tripped on their shoelaces and couldn't make it to the battle? Come on...
piromaniacson 02-10-07, 03:01 AM	I'm just saying sometimes there should be exceptions to the rule. Like if the players take too long to get to a certain place, then the BBEG should be there before them setting up an ambush. Or if the players come up with a remarkable way of getting there super fast (like teleporting) so that they can set up an ambush for the BBEG. I'm just saying there should be a few guidelines like at least withing what day would the BBEG arrive.
KingSpoom 02-10-07, 04:56 AM	You've obviously never read any old adventure modules, or you'd know that just as often as not, the adventure itself tells the DM "the evil wizard will show up just as the party arrives." I forgot... modules, the pinnacle of all adventures. Modules have to do things like that because they have no idea who's using them. Modules, largely, have no ability to customize themselves to any party that runs through it. By saying "the evil wizard shows up just as the party opens the chest" completely disregards all the actions the PCs have taken up to that point, good or bad. Might as well just write "round 1:evil wizard kills npc with spell, round 2: evil wizard steals artifact, round 3: evil wizard teleports away". I mean, if the PCs start grappling the wizard in round 2, it'd ruin the story because he couldn't teleport away with the artifact. *fix* Hate to break it to you, junior, but that's part and parcel of the game. It's called storytelling. I hate to break it to you, bud, but the game isn't about storytelling. Great stories are made in the process, but you aren't sitting down to make a story. Have fun putting your square block into the circular hole.
xandros2000 02-10-07, 05:37 PM	Have you ever noticed that Jack Bauer never disables the bomb 5 hours before it is set to go off?
kelvinaw273 02-10-07, 06:16 PM	I hate to break it to you, bud, but the game isn't about storytelling. Great stories are made in the process, but you aren't sitting down to make a story. Have fun putting your square block into the circular hole. Damn! I've been doing it completely wrong for the last 25 years! Seriously, that is EXACTLY what the game is about. OK, you CAN play it rigid and have a good stroy come out at the end ... or (and this is more likely) not. Why, when with a little tweaking you can have a good story come out every time? Anyhow, usually the BBEG is tracking the party and using them to get past the defences to the artefact. It may look like coincidence (or a really bad plot device) that he turns up at the same time as them, but it may not be. Ultimately we play the game to have fun, just like we read or watch adventure stories for good fun. Does a good story have the hero fail half of the time? Do they have him make the clues fit so that he has plenty of time to save the day with ease? Nope. Maybe you like the 'gritty real world feel' a lot, but even then, drama demands supsense. A desperate duel to the death just doesn't work if there isn't any desperation. That said, cleverness among players should not be penalised. If the players figure a way to the end that's a significant shortcut, they should be cut an advantage for doing so. Similarly, if they spend half their available time bickering about the route and refusing to cooperate with each other, they deserve finding the BBEG with the artefact in had, ready to fry them. For example, Holmes sometimes figures out his foe in advance and traps him cunningly - even comically - with ease. He sometimes gets beaten, and has to concede to his foe. But the best stories have cliffhangers and nick-of-time rescues in them. So yes, it is all about storytelling. But players and DMs do not, it is true, always want the same kinds of stories.
BloodSpill 02-11-07, 12:40 PM	There's nothing to strive for, as a player, if your DM doesn't accept that extra effort can be rewarded. And not everyone likes 24. (Ugh) The game is about having fun while you are playing. "Winning" is not the aim. Players are perfectly capable of having fun, while simultaneously completely failing to avert the destruction of the campaign setting. I don't play D&D to "win" the storyline.
Sereno 02-11-07, 05:17 PM	I don't play D&D to "win" the storyline. Wait ... if you don't play to "win" ... what do you do? Play to fail at the tasks expected of your PCs? :confused:
CowMasterTrojan 02-12-07, 01:03 PM	Wait ... if you don't play to "win" ... what do you do? Play to fail at the tasks expected of your PCs? :confused: The point of D&D isn't winning at large or small tasks. It's about playing the game, developing your character, roleplaying, and just enjoying yourself in the fantasy scenario. You can't ever actually win in D&D much in the same sense that you can't win in real life. Instead you try to succeed and enjoy the journey.
Sereno 02-12-07, 02:11 PM	The point of D&D isn't winning at large or small tasks. It's about playing the game, developing your character, roleplaying, and just enjoying yourself in the fantasy scenario. You can't ever actually win in D&D much in the same sense that you can't win in real life. Instead you try to succeed and enjoy the journey. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with you. I think that nearly every encounter, every scenario, carries with it inherent "win conditions" and "loss conditions" and, personally, I find that the "win conditions" are more satisfying. I *want* to rescue the kidnapped princess, stop the rampaging dragon, stave off the orc raids, defend the caravan I'm protecting, etc.... A game in which you cannot find the princess, get eaten by the dragon, raided by the orcs and watch the bandits ride off with all the caravan goods is NOT enjoyable. Or, at least, much less enjoyable. While I agree that you can't "win" DnD like you can Monopoly or chess -- and, while adventuring, failure is always possible, and absolutely should be -- I think that "winning" kind of *is* the point.
Boraxe 02-12-07, 05:04 PM	My party basically was in a race against time to get to a cave to reach an artifact and the BBEG shows up just when all of our spells are gone and most of us are unconscious. Does anyone ever think that the DM never has a timeline of when his characters actually reach their destination, they just happen to when the DM feels like. It shouldn't be whenever the DM feels like it, it should be whenever it is most dramatically potent. Having the BBEG show up precisely when you are out of spells and resources are spent to hit you when you are most vulnerable is not potent, it's just cheap.
piromaniacson 02-12-07, 05:24 PM	It shouldn't be whenever the DM feels like it, it should be whenever it is most dramatically potent. Having the BBEG show up precisely when you are out of spells and resources are spent to hit you when you are most vulnerable is not potent, it's just cheap. Well I can't blame the DM all the time for my party's stupid actions. I always thought the number 1 rule of DnD is never to split up the party, but that never stops anyone that plays with me. Last week I was leader of the group and I fell unconscious and I'm the only healer in the group. So some of the characters there have been playing 3.5 for a while now and how long do you think it takes 5 people to roll for a heal check? 30 freaking minutes, and thats only because I told them to. I swear my party members are noobs sometimes...
kelvinaw273 02-12-07, 07:16 PM	It shouldn't be whenever the DM feels like it, it should be whenever it is most dramatically potent. Having the BBEG show up precisely when you are out of spells and resources are spent to hit you when you are most vulnerable is not potent, it's just cheap. Unless of course he has been trailing them, or the module description says that he gets there at the same time as them, or ... there are a hundred reasons that a DM might choose that moment to introduce the BBEG for the final confrontation. If the players didn't think to keep some spells back just in case, that is not the DM's fault.