Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bladesinger Boy 12-19-06, 08:27 PM	It came to my mind, from looking at the Bard or the Monk, that a better system could be devised to govern any finite per day uses of an ability. I mean, look at the Monk; gets a Stunning Fist charge per day for each level which (unless you're using some oriental adventures feats) can only be used to try to do a stunning unarmed attack, and one dimension door, and one quivering palm, and two times their level in points of self-only healing. That's a lot of various uses to keep track of. At the risk of sounding like a frustrated person in an infomercial, "isn't there a better way"? So, what if some classes, like the Bard or Monk, instead got one charge per level each day. Using a class ability that the character has unlocked by being such and such a level in the Monk class, they can activate these abilities by spending a set amount of charges, like 1 charge for a Stunning Fist or 2 charges for a Dimension Door or maybe (guesstimate) 6 charges for a Quivering Palm. They spend their charges as they want each day, not pre-divided into one of this and two of that etc, and each day recover all charges when they rest. There could be 3 types of charges as I see it: Spirit charges, Focus charges, and Mystic charges. Spirit charges would be used by classes like Clerics or Paladin, and represent some amount of opening up to allow other forces into your being (think channeling divine power). Focus charges would be used by classes like Sorcerers or Barbarians or Bards, ands represent maintaining a certain state of mind and being by highly focusing on a certain outer object or emotional or cognitive state. Mystic charges would be used by classes like Druids or Monks, and represent a transcendental shift of energy (hence the mysticism name). So, for example, a Bard. Every Bard level, the character gets one additional Focus charge per day (instead of Bardic Music). At first level, the Bard gets the "Inspire Courage +1" ability, which lets him spend one Focus charge to do the whole +1 inspire courage thing. Later, he'll unlock higher level abilities that let him spend more focus charges to cause Inspire Greatness or Inspire Courage +3 effects, etc. Even if this character is a high level Sorcerer and has a many Focus charges from that class, taking his first Bard level does stack together his Bard Focus charges with his existing Sorcerer Focus charges. However, this does not grant him high level Bard uses of these charges as he has not gained the ability to use these high level Bard abilities yet. Charge costs for various class abilities might look like this... - PALADIN . . Smite Evil: 2 spirit charges . . . . . . . . . Turn Undead: 2 spirit charges . . . . . . . . . Remove Disease: 2 spirit charges . . . . . . . . . Lay-On Hands (5 pts healing): 1 spirit charge - DRUID . . . . Animal Wildshape: 1 mystic charge . . . . . . . . . Plant Wildshape: 2 mystic charges . . . . . . . . . Large size Wildshaping: +1 mystic charge cost . . . . . . . . . Elemental Wildshape: 3 mystic charges . . . . . . . . . Huge Wildshaping: +2 mystic charge cost - MONK . . . Stunning Fist: 1 mystic charge . . . . . . . . . Abundant Step: 2 mystic charges . . . . . . . . . that Self Healing thingy (5 points): 1 mystic charge . . . . . . . . . Ethereal Jaunt thingy: 4 mystic charges . . . . . . . . . Quivering Palm: 6 mystic charges - BARBARIAN . Rage +4: 2 focus charges . . . . . . . . . . Rage +6: 3 focus charges . . . . . . . . . . Tireless rage: x2 focus charge cost . . . . . . . . . . Indomitable Will: +1 focus charge cost When I see that, if we maintain a similar amount of uses per day to the original class just said in terms of a charge system, some classes don't seem to have any 1 charge cost abilities. I think they should all have at least one 1 charge cost ability (those who do have charges at all), so maybe slightly weaker version of some staple abilties could be created. For example, since Smite Evil would cost 2 spirit charges, have a "Smite" ability (no "evil") that only affects plus to hit. Or, for the Barbarian's rage, have a weaker +2 rage that only requires one focus charge. When I mentioned this to my friend a while ago who's a bit conservative for D&D rules, he was utterly against it because he feared if abilities like these were standardized uses of a pseudo-spellslot thing like charges, it would be horrible if new effects then came out to stop someone's ability to use those charges. I mean, imagine a paladin about to smite evil that big evil mage when the mage suddenly casts some sort of "freeze charges" spells on the Paly so he can't use his smites, or instantly depletes them to zero, or in some way hampers them. If each ability that was activated by spending charges that well categorized into Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-Like (which I think a good chunk would be), i think that would mean the proper spellish ones that can be canceled or pre-empted could be. From my standpoint, it's pretty fearful and egotistical to stop a useful change to maintain power for your own PCs.
Reversefigure4 12-19-06, 11:56 PM	The fact that it took you a single paragraph to explain the current system, then 3 more to explain the new one, should tell you something about ease of use. Instead of keeping track of "I have two Stunning Fists per day", you want to go to "I have five mystic charges per day. Now I must look up how much Dimension Door takes to use and then mark it off my mystic charges." It's more complicated, not less.
CowMasterTrojan 12-20-06, 01:15 AM	I like the idea but I agree, it is more complicated.
KurenaiYami 12-20-06, 02:19 AM	I'll throw my vote in with the rest. The idea is good, but it didn't come out quite right.
Relic 12-20-06, 09:32 AM	I just change it to uses per encounter rather than uses per day. For example, a monk can use Stunning Fist once per encounter at 1st level and gains an additional use per encounter every additional four levels (i.e. a 7th-level monk could use Stunning Fist twice per encounter, an 8th-level monk could use Stunning Fist three times per encounter, etc). All you need to do is determine how often you want the class to use the ability and what you think is balanced for your game.
Sphyre 12-20-06, 11:22 AM	I like the idea but I agree, it is more complicated. Sometimes more complicated simply means it takes longer to learn, but is better balanced in the end. These aren't bad ideas.
SilentOne 12-20-06, 11:36 AM	It's kinda like the ninja's ki points, except that similar types stack. It doesn't sound all that complicated, especially once players and the DM learn it for the first time. All it takes now is tweaking of the numbers to make it all work. However, I find what your friend worries about to be awesome, and something that would be good in this system: freezing a person's personal power (particularly in monkish settings, though it could work by severing a connection to a diety or nature temporarily like the spell Divine Intercession, or to the primal side of their mind responsible for barbarianness) is a pseudo-staple in fantasy. Imagine sneaking into the evil necromancer's fortress o'doom, then, as you start fighting in his throne room and he's about to smite all good out of you, boom, break his magical tie to the undead around him. It's gold.
Knight9910 12-20-06, 12:49 PM	If DnD was about ease of use it wouldn't be DnD. Also, kind of off topic but there IS something that lets you use stunning fist on something besides an unarmed strike and it's not "some weird feat out of oriental adventures." You can get a weapon with the Ki Focus enchantment that lets you use Stunning Fist, Ki Strike, and Quivering Palm abilities with it.
MerlintheTuna 12-20-06, 02:59 PM	Er, I can kinda see your point that you have multiple things to track in a high level monk (gods forbid you try to play a high level Wizard). But why on earth does the Bard need a new system? "I have 10 uses of Bardic Music. These are my Bardic Music abilities." Done and done. I don't see anything you've done on that front as being necessary, or even beneficial.
High Octane 12-20-06, 03:06 PM	Too complex. Doesnt really add much to the game expcept complication. Also it will end up causing people to end up using their charges on one particular ability anyway.
Sphyre 12-20-06, 03:44 PM	Too complex. Doesnt really add much to the game expcept complication. Also it will end up causing people to end up using their charges on one particular ability anyway. I disagree on both accounts, well... one and a half accounts. It's not too complex, it's pretty easy to understand. It's much easier to understand than say something like Incarnum. Many ideas often go through complex descriptions before they get simplified down into their final form. For example. You have X doses of energy per day. To use any given ability it costs you Y energy. More powerful abilities cost more energy. That's pretty much what he's suggesting. WotC has already released several different classes that do this. Psionics with power points. Dragon Shaman with touch of vitality. Ninjas with Ki power... All of them have a single pool that can do different things for different costs. I'm sure there's more but that's just the tip of the iceberg. The other half is, yes it's possible that one might end up using it on one particular ability, but at the same time, if everything is priced correctly, it shouldn't change much at all. I personally don't have a problem with the per day system. It's fine as is, but that doesn't mean this system couldn't work in it's place.
Aratex 12-20-06, 06:26 PM	It came to my mind, from looking at the Bard or the Monk, that a better system could be devised to govern any finite per day uses of an ability. I mean, look at the Monk; gets a Stunning Fist charge per day for each level which (unless you're using some oriental adventures feats) can only be used to try to do a stunning unarmed attack, and one dimension door, and one quivering palm, and two times their level in points of self-only healing. That's a lot of various uses to keep track of. At the risk of sounding like a frustrated person in an infomercial, "isn't there a better way"? Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I use a sheet of notebook paper to keep track of my hp in combat... I keep my hp in a column to the right of the page, and on the left, I list my daily abilities and how many times I can use them and/or my prepared spells for the day. When I use an ability or a spell, I put an X next to the name.. When I sleep, I erase all the X's. It's so so easy to keep track just at a glance, and I usually use the same sheet for quite a long time before I need a new one.
Bladesinger Boy 12-21-06, 03:20 AM	Bookkeeping But, Aratex, you then have to make a new column for each of your abilities- your stunning fist, your dimension door, your self healing points, your ethereal jaunt... we all need a little HP column to known if we're alive or not, but someone like a Monk needs like 5 more columns with X (or whatever marking you choose) to keep track. This needs only 1 more. So for any class, spell disregarded as a spell column is different and not covered, only ever needs two columns: HP and charges. You say your old way is easier for you, but maybe it's just habit; from a bookkeeping perspective, I like 2 columns. Why Bard? Well, I think it could help all the classes develop a single method for activating temporary and per use class abilities. The Bards probably closest to this already; he gets a Bardic Music "charge" each level already. You're saying "aren't you just renaming the Bardic Music ability?". If we need this to call core classes, yes, the Bard just basically got a name change. But, part of this was also about modularizing new abilities. You don't have to give some arbitrary, like 1 or 2 or 3+cha, number of uses per day, which then has to more so rework the power progression of that class. With this, since in theory each charge spent towards any ability grants similar power level effect, all you'd have to do is give the new ability a charge cost (a balanced charge cost) and thats it. Feats might unlock new abilities to spend charges on (like spending divine charges to apply metamagics, eh?), or might reduce some costs (for the frequent activator), or might just automatically improve them in some way (that "extended music" feat: +5 rounds after Bardic music effects end). Why 3 types? Here's why: it occured to me that we have to describe what kind of charges these are because if we simply call them "charges" it is not clear enough what they are but all they now all stack together. I think, in some cases, they should be very different, because a Barbarian Raging isn't much like a Druid Wildshaping. But a Druid Wildshaping might be kind of like a Monk going ethereal. My question was then how many types. Originally I thought 4, and it was really two opposing pairs: Spirit & Focus seemed opposed, and then Mystic and... well,I was thinking Emotion or Fury or something like that. When a told a veyr clever friend about it, she helped me describe each category and made me see my "Focus" category was very much like my "Emotion or Fury or Whatever" category. So now there's 3: Focus, Spirit, and Mystic. Small scale concentration, large scale awareness and channeling, and a shift in energy. Verbatim Okay, my first descriptions weren't very good. Think you it understand ? How would you describe it, more effectively and simply? I was trying to draw on a lot of example to describe through allegory; that's probably too informal for a printed book to use.
Sphyre 12-21-06, 10:12 AM	I don't think bookkeeping should specifically be a reason to change a mechanic. I use a laptop for my prefered method of bookkeeping (no eraser marks! no smudges!) but that doesn't mean that a method should be built around it. For example: The crusader from Tome of Battle has the most unique of all bookkeeping methods. The most ideal way to deal with it is to use cards and deal them out. Just because it's different doesn't mean you can't make a mechanic around it. Then again, just because you make a mechanic, doesn't mean you should implement it.
Bladesinger Boy 12-22-06, 07:50 PM	Sphyre, so first you said these aren't bad ideas. Then you defend it's similarity to other class abilities and therefore its modular replacability with classes. And thirdly you say streamlining, bookkeeping should not govern what abilities are chosen/created for mechanical power. So, are you a fan of this idea or not? And regardless of that previous answer, how would you DESCRIBE this ability if you had to write in it a WotC book? Perhaps related, how do classes like the Ninja describe it?
Sphyre 12-22-06, 09:25 PM	My opinion is that I probably wouldn't proactively adopt a charges system unless people complained about a per day system, being that I'm fine with how things are as is. I'm not opposed to a charges system though, it's a good idea, but that doesn't mean the per day system is a bad idea either. For example vancian spell casting with the spell slots is kinda clunky and was hard for me to grasp the concept at first. But now that I've played with it quite a bit I prefer it over many things because I don't feel like I'm wasting 1/5th of a 3rd level spell every time I cast a first level spell (Like how it works in psionics with power points). I have that first level spell slot anyway, I might as well use it. It makes lower level spells more able to stay useful when you can use them without losing any ability to cast your best abilities. The idea behind a lot of different things getting their own pool of "per day" abilites garuntees that all abilities will be used, while with your charge system, you have to price things very carefully. If you were to put it in D&Desque type writing it might look something like this (The paladin as an example: Spirit Charges Per Day: The paladin has many class features in which are powered by a pool of points called Spirit Charges. As a Paladin rises in level he gains more Spirit Charges per day. To activate a class feature that requires spirit charge he must spend a number of spirit charges equal to the cost of that class feature to activate that ability. He can do this as many times as he wishes until he depletes his pool of spirit charges. Spirit Charges are replenished after having 8 hours of rest, and praying for 15 minutes of uninterupted prayer. If a paladin gains a class in another class that has similar charges keep track of the pools separately. You cannot activate Paladin class features with spirit charges from any other source unless specifically specified. Smite Evil (Su): blah blah blah. This ability costs 2 spirit charges. (Also, it could be written: A paladin can spend 2 spirit charges to smite evil. blah blah blah) Turn Undead (Su): Blah! This ability costs 2 spirit charges. Remove Disease (Sp): Blah blah. This ability costs 2 spirit charges. Lay on Hands (Su): The paladin can heal wounds of himself or an ally, or alternatively damage undead... blah blah blah. He heals 5 points of damage for each spirit charge he expends. ...or something like that.
Bladesinger Boy 12-27-06, 02:55 PM	If this system was used, can anyone think of any new abilities that you'd like to see in some classes? Also, think about the type of action it requires; is Smiting Evil a free action or maybe swift action? If Inspire Courage is a standard action, can you spend extra charges to make it a swift action? Maybe a Barbarian ability other than rage? Or a Druid ability about your animal companion? Or some higher potency Cleric spell-like abilities from charges, a charge-cost neutralize poison or raise dead or restoration?