Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aod318 08-11-05, 09:44 PM	Hello All, Does anyone know how I could pick up Combat Expertise without that annoying INT 13+ requirement? Seriously, what does a fighter need with a 13 INT? Thanks.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-11-05, 10:05 PM	Its the nature of the feat, your character fights smart and avoids blows. Dont fight smart, you dont avoid the blows.... Thats why a fighter needs 13 int.... there are also PrC's and other feats you will need that Int for. But what you want is to fight like a brute AND gain the benefits of being a canny swashbuckler. If you dont qualify for it, just resign your self to the fact thats just not the kind of guy/gal your character is and play to your strengths.
Serielle 08-11-05, 10:12 PM	Seriously, what does a fighter need with a 13 INT? Low int fighter- "Dees sword here does the choppy choppies real goodz!" High int fighter- "I think I'll let this guy swing till he tires out, and then I'll start poking him as he's recovering between swings..." Hope that answers your question :D
DarknessEternal 08-11-05, 10:34 PM	Headband of Intellect.
Rathje 08-11-05, 10:53 PM	As a side note, there are other benefits to high intelligence. Apart from bonuses to skills, I think the extra skill points are well worth the investment. Stick it at a 14 instead of 13 and you get two more skill points per level than if you had an average INT (10). If you're Human, you get another. A Human Fighter with 14 INT has 5 skill points/level. Not bad for a base of 2.
aod318 08-11-05, 10:59 PM	I’m looking for a solution, not criticism. Monks can pick up feats they don’t qualify for. A prestige class that offers Combat Expertise?
StevenO 08-11-05, 11:03 PM	I think there may be a class or two (don't know what exactly) that grants Combat Expertise as a bonus feat similar to the ranger's fighting styles. Failing that you may try stat boosting items such as the afore mentioned headband of intellect. Stat boosters seem like a cheat to me but the are legal according to the rules although short term boosts won't let you learn the feat.
IceFractal 08-11-05, 11:04 PM	Well, maybe one of those variant Ranger combat styles, there's a bunch and they've got all kinds of things. But really, maybe you should just try to get high enough Int. What's your current Int?
aod318 08-11-05, 11:11 PM	Every point of INT is one less point of STR, CON or DEX. You’re telling me, I need a 130 IQ to figure out how to disarm an opponent? I know it’s D&D, but in keeping a perspective, WotC is saying you have to be in the top 3% intelligence bracket to figure to know how to trip someone? Hell, Einstein only had an INT of 16. Now that’s stupid.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-11-05, 11:13 PM	Stat boosters seem like a cheat to me but the are legal according to the rules although short term boosts won't let you learn the feat. How does that work out? Who is to say the headband will make its save when your next set on fire or fall in an acid pit? or that a grappling ogre wont pin you and strip you of it? You either cant take feats based on short term boosts or you can? There is no garuntee of how long or short lived an item will be. I woud NEVER allow this nor skill points from int items, its just such a total nightmare to manage your pracitaly forced into making the item a perminant part of the character just for conveinance.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-11-05, 11:14 PM	Every point of INT is one less point of STR, CON or DEX. You’re telling me, I need a 130 IQ to figure out how to disarm an opponent? I know it’s D&D, but in keeping a perspective, WotC is saying you have to be in the top 3% intelligence bracket to figure to know how to trip someone? Now that’s stupid. No they are not Tripping & Disarming are combat actions open to all :confused:
Kintara 08-11-05, 11:17 PM	Malhavok Press put out a new variant player's handbook, Iron Heroes, that has a completely new feat qualification system (and expanded feats that build upon the starting feats). Basically, the idea is that you gain "mastery levels" in various categories of feats as you gain class levels, and that opens up the feats instead. Combat Expertise is in the "Finesse" category, so classes that are good at that can pick it up sooner (along with its expanded options), but most classes eventually get enough mastery to pick up something basic like Combat Expertise after a few levels.
aod318 08-11-05, 11:18 PM	You don’t gain skill points from a headband. Relax. Back to the point, does anyone know a class or feat that grants Combat Expertise?
Kintara 08-11-05, 11:22 PM	You don’t gain skill points from a headband. Relax. Back to the point, does anyone know a class or feat that grants Combat Expertise? Hmm, do you want the feat itself, because I can't think of an example, off hand. Unearthed Arcana might have a Monk variant that offers it. Wolf Totem Barbarians (another variant in UA) get Improved Trip as a class feature, which is a good way to pick it up if you don't have the Intelligence.
Ut-Napishtim 08-11-05, 11:33 PM	Every point of INT is one less point of STR, CON or DEX. You’re telling me, I need a 130 IQ to figure out how to disarm an opponent? I know it’s D&D, but in keeping a perspective, WotC is saying you have to be in the top 3% intelligence bracket to figure to know how to trip someone? Hell, Einstein only had an INT of 16. Now that’s stupid. It's just the way the mechanics work, man. There are a couple Fighter feat chains that require a 13 in another attribute besides strength. I think it's probably intended more to guide players towards possible paths than to restrict you from becoming the master of everything. Let's face it, unless you're playing with some silly house rule where you get a feat every level or something you'll never get every feat you'd like to have. That's what makes it fun - the feats you do select out of the ones you want are what define your character's "style." If you're concerned about Dex and Con, focus on the feats and feat chains that require them. If you're willing to sacrifice them for Intelligence, then you're of the right mindset to play a Fighter with Combat Expertise. It's intentionally set up so you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to choose - do I want a corner piece with a flower, a nice center piece with ice cream on top, or maybe one of the ones with that nasty candy lettering on it. As far as classes go I can't think of any off the top of my head that start out with Combat Expertise though.
Lina_Inverse 08-11-05, 11:52 PM	How does that work out? Who is to say the headband will make its save when your next set on fire or fall in an acid pit? or that a grappling ogre wont pin you and strip you of it? You either cant take feats based on short term boosts or you can? There is no garuntee of how long or short lived an item will be. I woud NEVER allow this nor skill points from int items, its just such a total nightmare to manage your pracitaly forced into making the item a perminant part of the character just for conveinance. you can.a str 8 druid can get power attack,but loses it while not in a str 13+form. additonally items only EVER take damage in 2 circumstanses.you roll a 1 on a save for an area attack.they get sundered and headbands cant.
Kintaran 08-12-05, 01:49 AM	Any fighter can reasonably fight defensively (see said option) and gain a bonus doing so. However, it takes an exceptionally intelligent fighter to do it well. Believe me, doing so takes very quick thinking. Part of defensive combat is prediction, anticipation, and evaluation. Disarming and tripping without exposing yourself to counterattack requires similar measures. Anyways, few PrCs grant Combat Expertise, if any. After all, it is the base feat in the chain and most PrCs thus have it as a requirement instead. Since it is the building block of the Int-based fighting style, it seems implausible for a PrC to grant, since they focus a character along preexisting lines. Personally, I like how Combat Expertise has an Int requirement. It keeps the effective trickery to the more clever combatants. The Passive Way fighting style for Monks does give you Combat Expertise as the first level bonus. Now, my question is, why do you want Combat Expertise so badly? There might be a way to circumvent the feat entirely.
Laranis Callirr 08-12-05, 02:02 AM	ado318 probably isn't serious. I hope he isn't serious. Either way, his posts make my brain rot.
weasel fierce 08-12-05, 04:50 AM	Ask your DM.
anders 08-12-05, 06:29 AM	I’m looking for a solution, not criticism. Monks can pick up feats they don’t qualify for. A prestige class that offers Combat Expertise? It does not matter if you get combat expertise as long as you dont have int 13. You still can not use it. Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. There is no way you can use combat expertise without having 13 int. Possible ways of getting 13 is by spending the ability point you get each level, use wish, read a tome of understanding or headband of intellect.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-12-05, 07:54 AM	you can.a str 8 druid can get power attack,but loses it while not in a str 13+form. additonally items only EVER take damage in 2 circumstanses.you roll a 1 on a save for an area attack.they get sundered and headbands cant. Yes but druids forms are as good as permenantly available... in fact they are harder to strip frmo a druid than his natural strength. So yes i can totaly see how this works. But Stats from items could vanish at any time through: *Botched saves(only take damage on a 1... so you have 20 fireball spells before you headband is [on average] doomed) *Stolen. *Snatched: Snatch Items: You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well-secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see the Disarm action on page 155 in the Player's Handbook). Because your pinned foe can't attack, your attempt to disarm your foe doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from that foe. These are not uncommon events so i dont see why a player would want, never mind a DM allow you, to buy skills or feats based on non-permenatntly-available stats. If you cant just walk into a shop and buy the item boosting your stats to make a feat usable or get a party member to make it you are screwed if its lost, then there is all the hard feelings of "You screwed my character over", blah, blah, blah. I TOTALY understand a druid getting power attack if his alternate form supports it as it is much a part of his character as his Str score.... more so even! Allowing feats from item bonuses just doesn't seem to make for sound gaming IMO. Firstly as a GM it twists your arm to let the character perminanlty keep the item so he doesnt feel his character has been victimised or castrated when/if its removed from him. And as a character your spending a very valuable comoditity(feats) on somthing that could be ripped away at any time (if you GM doesnt feel forced into letting you keep it against all reasoning). OK official sorces may let it slide but neither me nor the DM's i play with have ever allowed it, and if thats any indication of how others feel then i wouldnt bank on another GM allowing it either.
StevenO 08-12-05, 06:41 PM	How does that work out? Who is to say the headband will make its save when your next set on fire or fall in an acid pit? or that a grappling ogre wont pin you and strip you of it? You either cant take feats based on short term boosts or you can? There is no garuntee of how long or short lived an item will be. I woud NEVER allow this nor skill points from int items, its just such a total nightmare to manage your pracitaly forced into making the item a perminant part of the character just for conveinance. I guess I should have said I wouldn't let you learn a feat if you only meet the prereq's due to a spell. The Headband of Intellect is a long term item (that doesn't add skill points) but a Fox Cunning (or what ever the Int. Boosting spell is) is a short term effect. In my book if you could learn bonus spells (assuming you have spells) because of the boost I'd let you learn the feat. By the rules all you need is access (a fly spell will allow someone to learn fly-by-attack) but I perfer having stat based prereqs be a little more permanent.
Ogmug 08-12-05, 06:58 PM	in reality, all things are "temporary" Granting a feat based on an item is allowed by the RAW. If you were to try to enforce that rule, then you would also have to gimp certain abilities that drain stats. For example, POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Str 13. A fighter with this feat could never ever have his strength go below 13, since that is the minimum. You would require that in order to have the power attack, his ability score must be 13. Your reasoning is that you don't want to put a DM in the predicament that if a player loses the item that grants the feat, he would feel set upon by the dm. You can't have it both ways. Either you allow the feat based of the ability score (and items affect ability scores, otherwise their descriptions would say "add +2 to strength bonus".) or you don't allow spells and abilities of creatures to bring a persons ability below a certain level if they have a feat. One caveat is that even if you do increase your intelligence, you do not get retroactive skill points. You only get additional skill points from that point onwards, and I do believe you can lose them if the item is destroyed (you forgot how to do something).
Milandros 08-12-05, 08:00 PM	There's a reason this feat has prerequisites, just as there are prerequisites for other feats. How would you react to a mage who asked "I want Improved Sunder, how do I get that without having Power Attack and all those strength and BAB requirements?" The minor reason is common sense - "Me Thrud, me hit stuff good, yeah?" INT 6 character probably isn't so good at noticing that his opponent always tenses his shoulders a quarter of a second before he swings, or working out the best position to be in to minimise the possible "attack reach space" available to enemy weapons. But he can probably smash armour and shields really well. The other is game balance. The prerequisites are there to try to prevent certain feats from unbalancing the game. I do agree that some Prestige Class pre-reqs are a bit arbitrary - I often allow my players to substitute other appropriate abilities in place; there's no reason to force Sunder on anything other that a "Bladebreaker" pretige class, I would normally allow any appropriate combat feat of similar power.
TheNatealator 08-12-05, 08:14 PM	My feeling is that if you can obtain the stat for a reasonable amount of time (a headband of intellect/gloves of dex/etc), you can get the feat, but only use it while you still meet the prerequisites. From the PH, in the abilities chapter (yea, who reads that after their first session, right?) For example, if Mialee's Intelligence score dropped to 9 because of a poison that reduces intellect, she would not be able to cast even her simplest spells until cured.
Yoho1.5 08-12-05, 09:08 PM	Combat Expertise For DUMMIES- Fight defensively with some ranks in tumble -4 to hit for +3 AC, not as good as CE but close. You can also trip or disarm as a simpleton you just provoke an AoO, which no biggy if your AC is good enough or use a reach weapon to do it vs a no reach opponent and skip the AoO altogether.
tharivol266 08-12-05, 10:19 PM	well im too lazy to read all the posts and im too lazy to go check but the swashbuckler class might have it as an ability
Duration_10_Rounds 08-12-05, 10:42 PM	in reality, all things are "temporary" Granting a feat based on an item is allowed by the RAW. If you were to try to enforce that rule, then you would also have to gimp certain abilities that drain stats. For example, A fighter with this feat could never ever have his strength go below 13, since that is the minimum. You would require that in order to have the power attack, his ability score must be 13. Your reasoning is that you don't want to put a DM in the predicament that if a player loses the item that grants the feat, he would feel set upon by the dm. You can't have it both ways. Either you allow the feat based of the ability score (and items affect ability scores, otherwise their descriptions would say "add +2 to strength bonus".) or you don't allow spells and abilities of creatures to bring a persons ability below a certain level if they have a feat. One caveat is that even if you do increase your intelligence, you do not get retroactive skill points. You only get additional skill points from that point onwards, and I do believe you can lose them if the item is destroyed (you forgot how to do something). No that is just taking it to the extream to try and make a point, yet has no real grounding in common sense. If you are drained by an undead or such then the nature of the attack is to weaken and disable... you are left wekened and disabled(well duh) and that also effects your feats.... that is common sense and totaly fits the nature of the attack. And repairing that ability damage is only 1 spell away. But unless your game allows players to buy any and all magical items off the shelf then the loss of said headband is devastating to the character. And any action that destroys it or removes it is "gimping" that character. Str drain is as easy to replace as a visit to the nearest skilled cleric... where as making magic items easily brought on any street corner so as the character can replace his needed item can destory a whole campaigns balance or look horribly! contrived. loss of feats through drain attacks is both logical, fair and easily rectified.... loss of feats through lost +stat items is painfull, time consuming, character gimping and hard to rectify if the nature of your game makes those items non-"off the shelf". Having played in a game where we were allowed to buy any magical item off the shelf i would not recormend any DM allowing it, it's a horrible powergamey mess.
BeyondFated 08-12-05, 11:28 PM	Having played in a game where we were allowed to buy any magical item off the shelf i would not recormend any DM allowing it, it's a horrible powergamey mess. You say 'powergamey mess', I say 'loads of fun'. But, then again, our preferences are our own. The whole tomato, tomatoe thing. However, inorder to contribute to this thread and not get yelled at for being off topic, I agree that if you have a [blank] of Inteliect +X then you should be able to use the feat. You'll just have to be extra careful with it, lest to lose it and end up with a wasted feat.
ksbsnowowl 08-12-05, 11:29 PM	It does not matter if you get combat expertise as long as you dont have int 13. You still can not use it. Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. There is no way you can use combat expertise without having 13 int.Actually, that's not true. The Kishi Charger PrC in Oriental Adventures grants the (Combat) Expertise feat at first level. It specifically says the character gains its use even if he doesn't have the requisite intelligence.
Ogmug 08-13-05, 12:03 AM	The point is, abilities gained through items is not the same as abilities gained through a spell. Would you deny a player the use of Gloves of arrow snatching? That grants the feat snatch arrows, yet it is an item. Would you deny the player the benefit of increased dexterity from gloves of dexterity? That just totally invalidates the use of them How about the bonus from gauntlets of ogre power? Belt of giant strength? Basically you are limiting your fighting classes to only having a max of 25 strength by level 20. Deny a paladin or a sorcerer the use of a cloak of wisdom? (by the way, i was wrong on the headband. The DMG specifically states that the bonus recieved by the headband does NOT convey additional skill points when levelling. So it is only used for determing spells, etc) Enhancement bonuses are there for a reason. To enhance a character. Even spells state that they add thier enhancement bonus "adding the usual benefit to <stat> related skills." (---page 259, PHB, under owl's wisdom)
Scion of Coldshard 08-13-05, 12:50 AM	Oddly enough I let people get feats that they even only qualify for short times for. Such as a character getting a feat that requires being large or larger while they are medium, but they have the spell enlarge person cast on them every day. They can only use the feat while enlarged sure, I feel it is a good tradeoff ;) As for the actual topic however see what it will take to get your dm to give you an item that will give it to you. Even if it has to be from an intelligent item. Failing that maybe he will let you get an item that treats all of your stats as being higher but only for very specific cases, such as feat prereqs, spells, and other things that dont come into play directly (as in, no real bonuses, just virtual things). Some dm's will make prcs for thier players to fit certain themes, ask him about that ;)
Gilean 08-13-05, 03:29 AM	Every point of INT is one less point of STR, CON or DEX. You’re telling me, I need a 130 IQ to figure out how to disarm an opponent? I know it’s D&D, but in keeping a perspective, WotC is saying you have to be in the top 3% intelligence bracket to figure to know how to trip someone? Hell, Einstein only had an INT of 16. Now that’s stupid.A lot more than 3% of humans have intelligence 13+. It is, in no way, equivalent to your measure of IQ/10. In fact, 7 people out of 52 have intelligence 13 or more. That is about 13% for you who are mathematically illiterate.
Mal20 08-18-05, 11:20 AM	The Watch Detective in Masters of the Wild gets Expertise as a free feat, and he doesn't have to have 13 Int. It's 3.0, but I don't believe its been updated foir 3.5 so should be legal.
Lord Schpungus 08-18-05, 01:54 PM	A lot more than 3% of humans have intelligence 13+. It is, in no way, equivalent to your measure of IQ/10. In fact, 7 people out of 52 have intelligence 13 or more. That is about 13% for you who are mathematically illiterate. AND you don't have to be that smart to trip, you just have to be that smart to be able to trip without getting the beatdown on yourself and Get a Free Attack in the bargain, as well.