Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizarddog 11-01-06, 09:57 PM	I Play in a very good group of gamers where roleplaying is the majority of the fun. However, I find we get stuck in situations (usually because of the setting) where we get ambushed by unseen archers wheer there is no cover. In the last encounter we were in a bog on a rocky mound when we had to take cover from arrows from a archer in the mist (that blocked visiblity by 30ft). I was the leader and I could not thI Play in a very good group of gamers where role-playing is the majority of the fun. However, I find we get stuck in situations (usually because of the setting) where we get ambushed by unseen archers where there is no cover. In the last encounter we were in a bog on a rocky mound when we had to take cover from arrows from a archer in the mist (that blocked visibility by 30ft). I was the leader and I could not think of an immediate strategy. Another time we ended up being routed by gnolls that could see in the dark and when we could not (we had only one dwarf-it's human dominated campaigns). Now my DM is very good and we respond in our characters with fight or flight responses as role-players. But I am interested in some sound tactical advice that is reasonable and won't be used by the DM to make matters worse. I should point out that magic is also rare in these campaignsink of an immediate stradegy. Another time we ended up being routed by gnolls that could see in the dark and when we could not (we had only one dwarf-it's human dominated campaigns). Now my DM is very good and we respond in our characters with fight or flight responses as roleplayers. But I am intrested in some sound tactical advice that is reasonable and won't be used by the DM to make matters worse. I should point out that magic is also rare in these campaigns. I await the advice Wizarddog
Bowmore 11-01-06, 11:10 PM	Might wanna do some editing in the first two paragraphs -- just a heads-up. Things are looking a little awkward there. Anyway, my recommendation for dealing with archers where there's no cover is to kneel or lay prone. Kneel gives a +2 bonus to AC against ranged attacks, and laying prone a +4. Alternatively, have the character with the highest AC and/or most HP stand directly in front of weaker characters, such as spellcasters. The cover he provides will give a +4 bonus to the AC of the character behind him against ranged attacks. As for the darkness, bring torches and sunrods wherever you go. Even if you drop a sunrod, it still glows (but can be stepped on or kicked away :( ). Seriously, all of my characters carry torches and/or sunrods on them, even if they can see in the dark. Sometimes you have friends who can't.
wizarddog 11-02-06, 11:08 PM	Might wanna do some editing in the first two paragraphs -- just a heads-up. Things are looking a little awkward there. Anyway, my recommendation for dealing with archers where there's no cover is to kneel or lay prone. Kneel gives a +2 bonus to AC against ranged attacks, and laying prone a +4. Alternatively, have the character with the highest AC and/or most HP stand directly in front of weaker characters, such as spellcasters. The cover he provides will give a +4 bonus to the AC of the character behind him against ranged attacks. As for the darkness, bring torches and sunrods wherever you go. Even if you drop a sunrod, it still glows (but can be stepped on or kicked away :( ). Seriously, all of my characters carry torches and/or sunrods on them, even if they can see in the dark. Sometimes you have friends who can't. While those tactics may be useful in the game mechanics they provide little in solid tactics in a roleplaying situation. First off, it would seem foolish for any one to stand up and rush a target they can't see and allow themselves to get shot with arrows. Even if I try that tactic I can't rely on the strongest member in the party to lead in such a crazy maneuver nor can I expect them to follow me if I lead it. The tactic has to be sound. It's just part of the roleplaying-even if I have 67 hitpoints that doesn't mean I rush in thinking I'm invulnerable. In the second scenerio, we easily had torches but they simply gave away our position from the bow wielding gnolls. I could ahve had the powerful character lead through a charge but again, while in character, he did not think the risk were worth it and fell back. What I need is a reasonable strategy. What would a group of marines do if pinned down in the marsh (besides call air support)? Wizarddog
Always-Late 11-03-06, 01:54 AM	While those tactics may be useful in the game mechanics they provide little in solid tactics in a roleplaying situation. Run away, throw flaming oil, or buy tower shields and advance under the wonderfully useful full cover they provide.
wizarddog 11-03-06, 02:06 AM	Run away, throw flaming oil, or buy tower shields and advance under the wonderfully useful full cover they provide. Run away is usually the tactic we end up using-causing us to lose track of each other and possibly picked off. Flaming oil is great but we usually end up starting with limited equiptment. I'll have to see about it in another campaign-it wasn't available in this campaign because we play Glacial Barbarians with limited technology. The tower shield is one of the options my character did start: He had one of the craftsmen of the tribe design one-it's very primative and I did not take it with me through the bog (It would have been a hinderance once we had to flee the other creatures that ate two party members). The future course of action I see is: 1) create your own concleament if cover is not available and move out of position. 2) Draw the fire of the archers to allow advancement. This I might have to do at great risk. wizarddog
Always-Late 11-03-06, 02:28 AM	(It would have been a hinderance once we had to flee the other creatures that ate two party members).By the RAW, tower shields don't hamper movement. Plus, full cover stops monsters (well, a monster) just as well, although you may debate the realism of that. Personally, I like having a personal wall.
Mystyc 11-03-06, 03:40 AM	If the mist stops you from seeing the archer...how is he seeing you? Anyway, rushing the archer's position isn't necessarily a suicide mission. You can run towards the source of the arrows, then drop prone at the end of your turn (free action). On your next turn, stand (move action), move 30 more feet, then drop prone again. Repeat as necessary, all the while benfitting from a +4 AC against ranged attacks.
wizarddog 11-03-06, 04:24 AM	That's a good one. I will just tell the DM I bolt off for 30 (40 because me big barbarian) and do the drop. Thnks Wizarddog
GenghisUber 11-03-06, 05:52 PM	Tactics for these kinds of situations will have to vary from situation to situation, but the general strategy is going to be to try to advance on the archer(s). If there's no cover, double moves and full runs with the party in a straight line are going to be your friends. Your DM should at least tell you the direction the arrows are coming from. If you have spellcasters, then laying down some cover will be a good idea. Put a fog cloud between the archers and you. This should let you advance for a round or two without having to worry about getting shot. Protection from Arrows sounds like a spell you want to have.
Always-Late 11-03-06, 07:24 PM	That's a good one. I will just tell the DM I bolt off for 30 (40 because me big barbarian) and do the drop. Thnks WizarddogWatch out for readied actions.
BW0222 11-04-06, 10:23 AM	wizarddog, Opportunities Archery ambushes are hard to pull off. You need to be a good distance (100') away in order to prevent folks from just moving up to you. You need cover/concealment and yet you it has to be for you only. Finally, your opponents need to be out in the open and not within easy distance of any cover or concealment. There are few cases for this. Forest, mountains, cities, etc. are all out as are most dungeons. Honestly, except for some open plains with a tower in the middle of it... cases are pretty limited. Smell the Ambush Because of the above, it isn't hard to tell when you are about to get into such cases. Anytime you are in the open and there is a location with cover or concealment (which you can see because it is out in the open), then you can see it and alter your path/route to avoid it or take precautions such as scouting the path ahead of time. Distance It is rare in D&D to have combat at extremely long distances. The battle maps are only so large. If you double move, you are typically half way across the map. There are few areas where there isn't some type of cover within 60 ft. Spells - Concealment There are lots of ways to get your own concealment. Obscuring mist, fog cloud, stinking cloud, darkness, etc. can all make the archers guess at your square (maybe a 1 in 6 chance) and even then they have a 50% miss change. If it happens a lot, get a few scrolls or a wand of obscuring mist. Non-Magical Concealment Smokesticks, fires, etc. Spells - Walls Most wall spells provide concealment and/or prevent attacks. Wind wall, wall of ice, etc. Magical Protections Everything from blur, displacement, invisibility, to entropic shield, protection from evil, protection from arrows, shield, etc., etc. At worst, they buy you time to move elsewhere. Flee In the open, a run would take you 120' (without mounts) per round. Within three rounds you can put some serious distance. Even if you can't find concealment/cover at -6 or so, hitting becomes an issue. Fight it out Just fight it out. One thing about archers is that their damage is typically limited and fixed. You don't get massive attacks in (baring rare critical hits). Toss big spells at them, use your own arrows (at worst you are at -4 which isn't that bad), and just start pouring on the healing, bless, and aid spells. You might go through a lot of resources, but you should win. Carry a few flaming arrows, thunderstones, etc. to even out the odds.
Cifer 11-05-06, 11:27 AM	Watch out for readied actions. That's one arrow (ok, two with the right feats) instead of all those from a full attack. While those tactics may be useful in the game mechanics they provide little in solid tactics in a roleplaying situation. First off, it would seem foolish for any one to stand up and rush a target they can't see and allow themselves to get shot with arrows. Even if I try that tactic I can't rely on the strongest member in the party to lead in such a crazy maneuver nor can I expect them to follow me if I lead it. The tactic has to be sound. It's just part of the roleplaying-even if I have 67 hitpoints that doesn't mean I rush in thinking I'm invulnerable. Actually, that's not completely true. HP and AC exist inside the game, too. Barbarians know they can either take a beating that most 'lesser' guys would die from or dodge the hardest attacks (the two most common interpretations of HP). The entire class of the barbarian is based on a huge "I don't care" attitude with regards to their own body, which is called Rage. A fighter with an enchanted full plate knows that most problems will bounce off his armor. During the crusades, muslims started to believe that european knights were invincible because most of their arrows stayed in the european padded jacks (basically a very strong padded armor or gambeson) without penetrating any further. Armor has meaning, just as high-level characters should realize they are more capable than low-level ones when it comes to taking a beating.