Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ezze88 12-27-06, 05:14 PM	So here's the situation. I am about to play in a Gestalt game starting at level 1, and I had just bought the Book of Nine swords and decided that I MUST have Swordsage as one of the two classes I will use. However I cant think of the second class to put it together with. I was thinking of Crusader but I guess I might be a little underpowered (a friend told me so). I want a character that would be relatively good in combat, but his main would be him being a leader (I talked to the rest of the party and they ok-ed it. So If anyone would recommend a second class, or maybe a good progression on how to make this character good and not underpowered I would really appreciate it.
memberZ 12-27-06, 05:48 PM	Psy Warrior or Cleric and wield a two handed weapon. Maybe even druid. All of which are wisdom driven to cut down on MAD.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-27-06, 06:40 PM	You might also consider going with fighter. Normally, the fighter is an unimpressive choice, but the fighter stops up a key weakness with the swordsage (base attack bonus), and the feats allow him to access the focus/specialization line (with melee weapon mastery being the objective). More than that, though, all those bonus feats make it *much* easier to qualify for the Master of Nine prestige class. Alternately, Warblade also solves the BAB issue, the maneuvers from both classes synergize fairly well, and this also gives access to the focus/spec line. It'll take longer to reach Master of Nine if that's your goal, but it's almost guaranteed that you'll have maneuvers from six different disciplines. The warblade's other abilities also work very well with the swordsage, and they both lean towards non-heavy armor, so you don't lose out on much by going medium/shield or light/no shield, either way.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-27-06, 08:39 PM	Swordsage/fighter. Just remember that if you gestalt another adept class, your initiator levels won't stack for the same reason that a sorcerer/wizard doesn't get double caster levels.
Crimson_Concerto 12-27-06, 09:14 PM	I think Warblade and Fighter are the best choices. They give you good Fort saves, good BAB, and much better HP. The Warblade is a bit mad, with the INT thing, but it's not impossible to get past. I also have to agree with whoever suggested the Druid. Swordsage/Druid sounds great conceptually and makes for a fanastic divine Gish... as a matter of fact, Cleric might work well too. Was is Divine Power that gave you full BAB? Or what was Rightous Might? Either way, it's a great way into Ruby Knight Vindicator. which is awesome, by the way.
Gonf 12-27-06, 09:21 PM	I would say Warblade. Despite the addition of a new key score (int) the additional class skills, incredible hit die, and base attack bonus alone are great, when you add in his new abilities, technique schools, and faster refresh rate of techniques... Yum. If you do have a good int, wis and str, you are pretty much set, cha and dex would be next, and con would bring up the rear in importance.
ressurrector 12-27-06, 11:21 PM	Warblade vs fighter: d12 vs d10 4+ skills vs 2+ (this dosen't matter in gestalt I know) Fighters get more feats Warblades get special abilities (Most of the Int related abilities aren't actually that good, just forget them) Warblade gets maneuvers (BTW Initiator Levels are tracked seporately for each adept class, much like Caster Levels are tracked seporately) If you need more feats play a fighter, however Warblade is a much stronger class Personally I'd suggest Swordsage/Monk and then take levels of Shadow Sun Ninja on the Monk side (Your DM may not allow this, as SSN is sort of a combined PrC) Swordsage/Cleric (or Druid) is another good choice, you can wear light armor and get your casting stat to your AC.
claypigeons 12-28-06, 12:17 AM	Warblade vs fighter: d12 vs d10 4+ skills vs 2+ (this dosen't matter in gestalt I know) Fighters get more feats Warblades get special abilities (Most of the Int related abilities aren't actually that good, just forget them) Warblade gets maneuvers (BTW Initiator Levels are tracked seporately for each adept class, much like Caster Levels are tracked seporately) If you need more feats play a fighter, however Warblade is a much stronger class Warblade gets d12 HD. Improved/Uncanny Dodge, Int to damage, and, as stated, manuevers. I dont see any reason to ever play a fighter again, considering the warblade can take fighter only feats, albeit at a slower rate.
ezze88 12-28-06, 01:29 AM	Well after much deliberation I decided to take something similar to the Warblade but not exactly it. Crusader goes much better with the role for the character and like the warblade it is only a change in the stats. Maybe statistically it won't be the best character, but it goes best with the character itself. Thanks a lot for your advice, I appreciate it a lot. PS: I couldn't have chosen Druid or Cleric because in this particular campaign The gods itself do not exist, they are only 'sources of power' which no one really reveres. But thanks anyways.
claypigeons 12-28-06, 03:44 AM	Well after much deliberation I decided to take something similar to the Warblade but not exactly it. Crusader goes much better with the role for the character and like the warblade it is only a change in the stats. Maybe statistically it won't be the best character, but it goes best with the character itself. In my opinion, the crusaders suck really bad. It's "Divine Grace-Like" ability only works for Will saves. The manuever mechanics are horrible. Furious Counterstrike is neat, but you are required to get the crap kicked out of you to get a lot out of it. I'm not sure about other people, but I'd rather NOT get hit by an axe in the face just for a few extra damage. :P If you're going the "holy warrior" route, I would actually go paladin, as I think it brings about as much as the crusader. Divine grace is better than Indomitible Soul, you get a free mount, and you get more smiting. PS: I couldn't have chosen Druid or Cleric because in this particular campaign The gods itself do not exist, they are only 'sources of power' which no one really reveres. But thanks anyways. Unless your DM has ruled differently (and it sounds like s/he has), a cleric or druid doesnt need to worship a god. They can worship an ideal. The crusader fluff says, basically word for word, that they gain power through utter devotion to and faith in their chosen ideal.
ressurrector 12-28-06, 04:10 AM	Actually, Crusader is a good deal stronger than Paladin. Furious Counterstrike, for instance, works off the delayed damage pool, which can be used with Stone Power to grant yourself effective fast healing. Take 5 damage, goes to delayed damage pool, attack at -3 from Stone power (granting 6 temp HP) and +1 from Furious Counterstrike. You've just taken 0 damage (instead of 5) while attacking at -2 to-hit and +1 to damage. When comparing the Crusader to the Paladin, it is important to remember that Crusaders still get full initiator level, while paladins get fairly pathetic spellcasting. (yes the maneuver recovery is somewhat of a pain, but it's better than that of a swordsage if you select the correct maneuvers) Crusaders also get more skill points than paladins, and their special abilities are arguably on-par with those of the paladin (more so with the nerfing of paladin mounts in 3.5, if your DM actually buys into the "summoned" mount bull****)
claypigeons 12-28-06, 10:43 AM	Actually, Crusader is a good deal stronger than Paladin. Furious Counterstrike, for instance, works off the delayed damage pool, which can be used with Stone Power to grant yourself effective fast healing. Take 5 damage, goes to delayed damage pool, attack at -3 from Stone power (granting 6 temp HP) and +1 from Furious Counterstrike. You've just taken 0 damage (instead of 5) while attacking at -2 to-hit and +1 to damage. When comparing the Crusader to the Paladin, it is important to remember that Crusaders still get full initiator level, while paladins get fairly pathetic spellcasting. (yes the maneuver recovery is somewhat of a pain, but it's better than that of a swordsage if you select the correct maneuvers) Crusaders also get more skill points than paladins, and their special abilities are arguably on-par with those of the paladin (more so with the nerfing of paladin mounts in 3.5, if your DM actually buys into the "summoned" mount bull****) Power attack... -1 for +2 damage... or stone power+furious counterstrike... -2 for +1? Hmm... let me think... The crusader is the weakest of the ToB base classes. And the skill points dont matter, as swordsage gets 6 per level. The only reason to play a crusader is if you really cant live without devoted spirit manuevers. Devoted spirit has healing, but only because it's require to stop you from dying from the main class ability of the crusader.
Toxic_Shaman 12-28-06, 12:17 PM	Swordsage mixed with Psionics could be fun and fits well thematically . Swordsage//Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Warmind could be really nice. Start using the Warmind Sweeping Strike ability with your Swordsage Maneuvers.
claypigeons 12-28-06, 01:51 PM	Swordsage mixed with Psionics could be fun and fits well thematically . Swordsage//Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Warmind could be really nice. Start using the Warmind Sweeping Strike ability with your Swordsage Maneuvers. Warmind has too much overlap with Psychic warrior. If you take warmind levels, they should be standalone psionics in a build. It's a waste otherwise, as the warmind doesnt increase existing psionic ability.
Crimson_Concerto 12-28-06, 02:17 PM	I'm really going to have to go against recommendations for psionics and most spellcasting classes, because maneuvers usually take something like a standard action, full round action, etc. You can't hope to do everything you're capable of in a single sound. I'd rather have something on the other side of swordsage that just synnergizes well without the use of my precious actions per round... There are some that are swift action maneuvers, of course, and there are quickened spells, but we don't need these competing for use too, now do we? Now, don't get me wrong. Swordsage // Caster is really good, but it's just overly complex for my tastes. It gives me the impression that there's lots of clutter...
MagicMouth 12-28-06, 02:24 PM	Perhaps the Fighter variant in Unearthed Arcana that gets Sneak Attack instead of Bonus Feats? (Linky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm), near the bottom) That way you get full BAB and d10 HD, and Sneak Attack is always nice for a stealthy character.
Radijs 12-28-06, 02:34 PM	Paladin could work out well too. d10 hit die. full BAB good fort and quite a few other niceties. Amongst which, Detect Evil.
tallric_kruush 12-28-06, 02:42 PM	Well after much deliberation I decided to take something similar to the Warblade but not exactly it. Crusader goes much better with the role for the character and like the warblade it is only a change in the stats. Maybe statistically it won't be the best character, but it goes best with the character itself. Thanks a lot for your advice, I appreciate it a lot. PS: I couldn't have chosen Druid or Cleric because in this particular campaign The gods itself do not exist, they are only 'sources of power' which no one really reveres. But thanks anyways. I guess it's too late to change your mind.:confused: If the gods don't exist, why go with a divinity-based class like Crusader? If you want to be a leader, Warblade has Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Knowledge(local) as class skills--three skills handy for the spokesman of the group. Plus, it's just a much stronger combination. Crusader will let you hang tough in a fight, but I think paladin is much stronger (at the very least through the first few levels) and need not be a caster or even religious. Use the CW alternative Paladin and make him champion of a cause rather than a deity. Warblade wouldn't just let you hang in there, it would let you kick some serious ***! Plus, as mentioned by some of the others, it synergizes well with the light armor dependence, etc... Improved uncanny dodge (at 6th level!) is huge in the thick of things... I hope you'll reconsider...;)
claypigeons 12-28-06, 03:45 PM	I'm really going to have to go against recommendations for psionics and most spellcasting classes, because maneuvers usually take something like a standard action, full round action, etc. You can't hope to do everything you're capable of in a single sound. I'd rather have something on the other side of swordsage that just synnergizes well without the use of my precious actions per round... There are some that are swift action maneuvers, of course, and there are quickened spells, but we don't need these competing for use too, now do we? Now, don't get me wrong. Swordsage // Caster is really good, but it's just overly complex for my tastes. It gives me the impression that there's lots of clutter... Reply With Quote Swordsage//Caster is no different than Wizard//Archivist. No matter what classes you pick, you cant do everything at once. That's why gestalt isnt as powerful as people make it out to be. But really, Swordsage//Cleric(of an ideal) would be amazing. Take all the cleric-y goodness, like divine power and righteous might...and then add manuevers, wis to AC and damage and Improved/Evasion... That's just sick.
Pangeon 12-28-06, 04:02 PM	I'm playing a gestalt Swordsage/Barbarian right now, and it's working out rather nicely.
ezze88 12-28-06, 04:06 PM	Well, After reading and devoting a while to think about it, you guys are right. Crusader isn't the best for this particular character, like claypigeons said I dont want to get kicked the **** out of me just to gain a little attack bonus. Instead I am going to try out the Warblade/Swordsage combination, because It seems much better for the character combat wise and Rp wise. Thank you a lot for your help! (If you guys wanna keep talking go ahead, but Im certain this is my final choice)
claypigeons 12-28-06, 05:05 PM	Well, After reading and devoting a while to think about it, you guys are right. Crusader isn't the best for this particular character, like claypigeons said I dont want to get kicked the **** out of me just to gain a little attack bonus. Instead I am going to try out the Warblade/Swordsage combination, because It seems much better for the character combat wise and Rp wise. Warblade is nice because it opens up Iron Heart manuevers to you. Iron Heart kicks so much ass, you'll probably go blind. I see two problems though. First, MAD, warblades like a lot of Int, swordsage likes Wis an awful lot. Secondly, you will have too many manuvers. You wont be able to use them all. :D
Crimson_Concerto 12-28-06, 11:27 PM	Swordsage//Caster is no different than Wizard//Archivist. No matter what classes you pick, you cant do everything at once. That's why gestalt isnt as powerful as people make it out to be. But really, Swordsage//Cleric(of an ideal) would be amazing. Take all the cleric-y goodness, like divine power and righteous might...and then add manuevers, wis to AC and damage and Improved/Evasion... That's just sick. Which is why when I play gestalt I generally try to pick classes where one has activated abilities (such as a caster) and the other has passive abilities so that I don't have to worry too much about it but still get the benifit. For example, Rogues and Barbarians have no active abilities I can think of. All of them happen without any action needed (Rage is a free action, so no worries there, and Sneak Attack is triggered by a condition, not an action). I might then pair it with Swordsage, where the class's abilities need an action to activate. Another example is somethign like Druid//Monk. Most monk benifits are passive, the extra speed, the WIS to AC, etc., while Druids need actions to make use of their spells, etc. Understand what I'm trying to say?
claypigeons 12-29-06, 01:45 AM	Understand what I'm trying to say? Got it. But if/when you combine a casting class with a melee based class in gestalt, one is there to support to the other. Blasty fighters suck. Badly. But fighters that use magic to augment their existing abilities are kinda nice. Combining 2 classes with "activated" abilities isnt that hard when they work well with other... erm... branch of the gestalt. Like Cleric//Swordsage (I keep repeating it because it's that good)... the cleric either has divine metamagic to power it's sweetness, or takes a round or 2 to buff up. After he's buffed, he lay waste to his foes with his swordsage goodies.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-29-06, 04:29 AM	> Power attack... -1 for +2 damage... or stone power+furious counterstrike... -2 > for +1? Hmm... let me think... Think again. Stone Power is a defensive variation of Power Attack. It's -3 for +6 (HP rather than damage) and +1/+1 from FC, totalling -2 attack, +1 damage, +6 HP (effectively healing the damage you took). Mr. Power Attack would have -1/+2 for attack/damage, which is better in terms of attack power, but he'd also be down 5-6 HP, while the crusader is uninjured.
AmericanYeti 12-29-06, 03:43 PM	I played a Swordsage-Monk and he was pretty cool. Mastered Setting Sun and was nigh-unhittable. But, if you want to be a leader, why not be a Bard?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 12-29-06, 04:25 PM	I'll emphasize this: Swordsage is a melee character with secondary BAB. Be absolutely sure to take something with full BAB. Otherwise, I agree with AmericanYeti that bard works well thematically. So maybe try the marshal. You can kick some serious :censored: in battle and you can make everyone else better in battle. That'd pair nicely if you could get access to White Raven maneuvers. Or try Duskblade. I know you don't really like activated powers, but try the feat Arcane Channeling. How would you like to get +5 to hit and +5d6 damage to an attack? Combine it with one of your maneuvers for a KO. And duskblade gets you many spells/day. From what I've heard at least, arcane channeling is a must for duskblades - not many good spells. So you wouldn't be doing much casting anyway. Just my two coppers.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-29-06, 04:36 PM	I dont see any reason to ever play a fighter again...More feats. That really is reason enough to take fighter, especially in gestalt. So many character themes like archery and two-weapon fighting and shield fighting are just so feat intensive, you need a bonus feat every other level to keep up.
tallric_kruush 12-30-06, 12:32 AM	Well, After reading and devoting a while to think about it, you guys are right. Crusader isn't the best for this particular character, like claypigeons said I dont want to get kicked the **** out of me just to gain a little attack bonus. Instead I am going to try out the Warblade/Swordsage combination, because It seems much better for the character combat wise and Rp wise. Thank you a lot for your help! (If you guys wanna keep talking go ahead, but Im certain this is my final choice) :clap: Glad to hear it!!
AZNsupermarket 12-30-06, 02:28 PM	Build I came up with: Swordsage 20//paladin 2/monk 2/cleric 1/sacred fists 10/x 5 or Swordsage 20//paladin 2/monk 2/paladin +2(levels 3-4)/sacred fists 10/x 4 Take serenity, intuitive strike, and ascetic mage - and if you go hafling (strongheart is best), take yondalla's sense Why you ask? Wisdom bonus to: attack damage (twice!) all saving throws ac (twice, but sage advice say that wis to AC wouldn't stack :( ) lay on hands smite evil turn undead initiative (if you go halfling) for more ideas or to see how I did this, check out this thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889