Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sildatorak 09-13-04, 02:39 AM	After playing D&D in secret for 7 or 8 years, I've decided to tell my mother. She forbade me in highschool, but I played anyway…not sure if I'll tell her that or just let her think that I started playing in college. She is an intelligent person, I love and respect her, but on this issue she bought in to the media hype of the early 80's (I think that was when it was, anyway) and was scared to let me play. The point of this post is that I'm looking for advice on handling this, especially from anyone who has been in this same boat. I'm thinking that visiting some anti-D&D websites with her and then visiting some of their other propoganda (things like Catholicism is satanic or whatnot) might help her understand that the slander that was put out about D&D was unfounded. Does anyone have any websites (either the extreme anti-D&D or ones that approach the issue from a neutral stance) or advice to offer? Please remember that only the first "your mother" joke will be funny and keep it constructive.
Glak 09-13-04, 03:48 AM	"either the extreme right-wing anti-D&D" No such thing. Slandering is against the CoC. Use the term "extreme anti-D&D".
Asta Kask 09-13-04, 04:08 AM	Invite her to the game. Nothing beats personal experience. Heck, she might even ask to join!
Sildatorak 09-13-04, 04:19 AM	"either the extreme right-wing anti-D&D" No such thing. Slandering is against the CoC. Use the term "extreme anti-D&D". Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that conservatives (even those who would be considered extreme) are anti-D&D. I meant "extremists (who happen to be right wing) that are anti-D&D." I have yet to see any left-wing extremist anti-D&D material, but if you want to point out, any I'd be willing to look at it to see if there are more arguments that I need to be prepared to punch holes in.
Thorak 09-13-04, 07:36 AM	D&D is adult Pretend. The only difference is that we use rules to keep the "Did not!" "Did too!" to a dull roar, and we're a bit more creative than we were as toddlers. Unless she thinks toddlers are going to burn for eternity for playing cops and robbers, she's being hypocritical and ridiculous. I submit that if she does think said toddlers are going to burn, she's dangerously insane. And that describes the two kinds of people who think D&D is evil; they're either hypocritical and ridiculous, or they're dangerously insane. Yes, this is a polarized view. But considering the polarized view I'm arguing against, I think it's actually fairly mellow.
monkeywrench 09-13-04, 12:33 PM	Do what I did. Use this explanation. DnD is like a video game. Except you're not frying your retinas staring at a TV, you're sitting around a table with actual people, chatting, eating food, and playing a game, and laughing at your own silly exploits. Then invite her to a game.
Glak 09-13-04, 01:39 PM	Ok no problem. However I have known liberal people who are against D&D. They were religious, so that does seem to be a common thread. I think that the way people normally become anti-D&D is that they lack the ability to distinguish reality and imagination. For example there are people who were against the Power Rangers because they fight their foes! Who could be against heroes fighting villians? Heck I would be proud if my kids killed a bunch of giant robots threatening the city.
KHORG 09-13-04, 02:09 PM	Just hire out a big red devil costume, pick the cat up under one arm, D&D books under the other and walk into the living room "I'm off to play D&D, catcha later mum."
Leagle 09-13-04, 02:29 PM	I would advise against bring your mother to a game of DnD. You'll just have to correct her, and hope she mellows with gradual exposure. My father used to be quite the old fashioned homophobic. (You know, "..force it down our throats.. ..ain't natural.." Thankfully he was not one of those "rot in hell abomnation types", he may be religeous, but he isn't a total prat) Then he bought a house next to some gays. Problem solved The fact is that some people will always be either stupid, foolish and willfully ignorant, uncomfortable (with it) and annoying, or downright worthy of a good thrashing. The latter are often religeous (though certainly not exclusively), when they get even more annoying when they feel that they are given leave to be a pain by their institution. This applys to nearly all prejudice and religeons, so don't get on my case about it. (People always enjoy it when they have some "higher power" to excuse them.) Start slow. Robin hood? Such a lovable rogue, a good samaritan -who beheads witnesses. Start with that one, point out that people like to talk and listen to rubbish, but they are not irredemable, :smirk: and can be sensible about perfectly ordinary (and harmless) things. I seem to have lost my tack here, so I'll just say that taking her to a game of DnD is a bad idea, and that some people resist strongly any urge to stop them being willfully ignorant. (Hence the "willfully") And for the fools... This is not an attack on religeon, which for some reson doesn't look right -my spelling is all over the place these last few months, simply on those who use higher powers to excuse themselves. It is not an attack on specific people who do such, even though I would much like to make one, and I'll tell you it has nowt to do with DnD, or I'm sure it would be a hideous breach of the CoC (or am I thinking of the wrong agreement, ah well) and I'd rather not get too worked up.
Sildatorak 09-13-04, 02:33 PM	Just hire out a big red devil costume, pick the cat up under one arm, D&D books under the other and walk into the living room "I'm off to play D&D, catcha later mum." The problem with that is that picking up the cat is a two arm job. She's a fatty. For example there are people who were against the Power Rangers because they fight their foes! Who could be against heroes fighting villians? That's mainly an age-appropriate content issue. I don't think people in that particular case were unable to tell reality from fantasy, they were just concerned that their kids would be unable to. I too would be proud if my (eventual) children defeated giant robots attacking the city, but would not be proud if they defeated a friend and broke his nose in the process. Now for one that is on-topic: hypocritical and ridiculous, or they're dangerously insane She would be hypocritical and ridiculous, IMO. I just don't want to say, "Mom, you're hypocritical and ridiculous," because that would probably just tick her off and harm my relationship with her.
Thorak 09-13-04, 03:38 PM	She would be hypocritical and ridiculous, IMO. I just don't want to say, "Mom, you're hypocritical and ridiculous," because that would probably just tick her off and harm my relationship with her. Well, yeah. But as long as you know she's being hypocritical and ridiculous, you can figure out some comparisons to show her how she's being hypocritical and ridiculous. Like my 'pretend' analogy, or monkeywrench's videogame one. Pick one which isn't a subject she'll also have issues with; I use 'pretend' because I have yet to hear anyone claim that toddlers are satan-worshippers for playing pretend, when I have heard people say it about video games. When you find a nice, comfortable analogy to defuse her misbeliefs, which probably center around something silly like "but you pretend to use witchcraft and stuff", you can then point out that you saying "I cast magic missile" is hardly anything remotely similar to an actual spell. I highly suggest the Dead Alewives D&D skit if she's got a sense of humour about it at this point; it shows D&D at it's most ludicrous. At this point, she'll either start admitting the silliness of her beliefs and actively changing them, because she now sees that they're based on ridiculous assumptions (we hope it's this), or she'll steadfastly refuse to listen to reason and start claiming it's evil "because it is" or "because Father XXX said it is" or something equally logically senseless. At which point, roll your eyes and walk away, and never mention it again. Because she won't listen to reason, and will hold on to her ridiculous beliefs despite any proof that she's wrong. None of this should be taken as an attack on religion. Religion's great. I'm religious myself. However, a large portion of Christianity, more than other faiths, seems to uphold ignorant faith as an ideal. Blind faith is great; belief in something you cannot see. Ignorant faith, on the other hands, is absolutely ludicrous, because it involves not just blind faith, but the deliberate ignoring of facts and evidence that could counter one's beliefs. Ignorant faith is the religious equivalent of a scientist turning his back on a coworkers experiment and saying "I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen", despite the 50 other observers who clearly saw that it did. And it's just as detrimental to religion as that kind of attitude would be to science.
Leagle 09-13-04, 08:30 PM	She would be hypocritical and ridiculous, IMO. I just don't want to say, "Mom, you're hypocritical and ridiculous," because that would probably just tick her off and harm my relationship with her. This is precisely why you should start off small, by publically denouncing Robin Hood as a murderous blackguard.:b:
meabolex 09-13-04, 08:55 PM	D&D is adult Pretend. The only difference is that we use rules to keep the "Did not!" "Did too!" to a dull roar, and we're a bit more creative than we were as toddlers. In my experience, the following is true: The only difference is that we use rules to keep the "Did not!" "Did too!" as toddlers, and we're a bit more creative than most adults.
Thorak 09-13-04, 09:44 PM	When I said "more creative", I meant "more complicated", really. A toddler will imagine he's a knight, and that's about as far as it goes. It takes an adult's complexity of mind to imagine himself to be a brooding knight, whose faith in his innate nobility has been shattered by the horrors he has failed to prevent. But yes, toddlers are often much more prone to utter flights of fancy unconstrained by anything like "logic" or "good sense". They just lack the capacity to run with the idea quite as far as an adult could, if they can tap into the same wellspring and let it loose.
elcid1390 09-14-04, 04:36 AM	I'd like to respectfully argue that most of the advice so far has only dealt with one half of the problem. Most people who find D&D to be "evil" do so for two reasons; one of which you can deal with and the other, unfortunately, you can not. However, depending on the person, dealing with the first issue alone may or may not solve your problem. The first notion, which you can disabuse her of quite readily because it is patently false, is that there is no distinction between the player and his or her character. For example, although I play a fighter, I don't actually swing a sword. Although I play a rogue, I don't pick any actual locks. And most importantly (to our discussion anyway) although I play a spellcaster, I don't cast any actual spells. You are no more your character than an actor who plays a role in a play To wit: If I play Shylocke in my college production of The Merchant of Venice does that make me Jewish? This problem is complicated by the fact that, when playing D&D, most people refer to their characters actions in the first person, i.e. I cast a spell. However, if she's even semi-reasonable she'll see that a character's actions are not those of player. The second notion is that magic is inherently evil and that even the mention of other deities is sinful. Disabusing someone of this notion is, in my opinion, not worth the effort frequently required to do so, and probably won't matter unless your mother believes that magic is real. If she bought in to the mainstream 80s line, then she'll just think that it's psychologically damaging. To this you can reply that you've been playing it for seven or eight years (?) and are presumably fine. You could also show her the people you play it wih, if you think that would help. If she bought into the 700 Club line, though, it might be a little harder to demonstrate that you're not worshipping the devil. If you were able to take care of notion 1, you can argue that you're not worshipping false gods or manipulating inherently unholy forces, you're character is. However, most people who believe that D&D is harmful for supernatural reasons also believe a number of other things (which we won't get into here) that make that arguement moot. There objection is to subject matter of the game and there's really not a lot you can do about that. Lastly, on a side note (and I mean no offense), I calculated from your post that you're are probably, at your youngest, 22. If you don't live at home and aren't dependant on her for college tuition/rent/etc., it's really none of her business. You're an adult, legally and practically. What you do in your own home is your business. Since this is sort of a combative position to take, I would reccomend not "coming out" to her. It doesn't really help you or her in anyway, so why bother? Unless, of course, the game is a huge part of your life. But for almost all players, it's not that big a deal and so the debate is academic. Sorry if I bugged anybody (that was not intention) or if this was unfocused or difficult to read and I hope things work out with you, your mom and your hobby. PS A sneaky solution to the problem, which my friends and I used when gaming at his house (his parents were strict Catholics who thought D&D was evil for supernatural reasons) is to buy a game book with subject matter that is not objectionable and then say you need the D&D manuals for mechanical reasons. Star Wars is good for this sort of thing. Or you could just print out the SRD and put it in a binder and use that instead.
Sildatorak 09-14-04, 12:37 PM	It doesn't really help you or her in anyway, so why bother? Unless, of course, the game is a huge part of your life. Though I do spend a lot of time playing D&D I wouldn't consider it a huge part of my life. I guess the reason I think it is worth bothering is because I have a very honest relationship with my parents. My mom is generally fairly open-minded, and I think that if she places value on open-mindedness and honesty then she deserves to know. Plus it would be pretty tough to explain to her (eventual) grandchildren that they can't tell their grandma about playing D&D.
ck2001wendt 09-14-04, 05:17 PM	Oh man, it's threads like these that make me glad I group in an environment of utter indifference. Sildatorak, my main question for you is: How old are you? If you're under 18 (or 22, if you're an American), I'd recommend living with your shame until you're financially independent. Once you are no longer beholden to your parents, I would just let them know that "hey, can't talk...off to play D&D." My father was always incredibly against my playing D&D, and would give me incredible amounts of **** about it while I was growing up. By the time I got to graduate school, he came to realize that it hadn't had a tremendously negative effect on my life (I was, after all, getting good grades, actively involved and whatnot), and he quizzed me about it a couple of times before dropping his objections. If your mother is a reasonable person, just bring up at some point that this is what you do, and it's had no negative effects. If she's not, I'd just ignore her. Now, a much harder situation is telling your SIGNIFICANT OTHER that you play D&D.
zorro74 09-15-04, 01:05 AM	Repect is mutual. You respect your mother, don't be afraid to expect her to respect you back. I had a similar issue with my Mom. I listened to her case, then I stated mine. We don't agree in everything but we don't have to. D&D is like the Force (forgive the Starwars analogy) it is not inherently good or evil, it is what you do with it that counts. Do you sneak into a Cemetery at night and draw satanic symbols while you play? (which is probably your mom's perspective of the game) Or do you use it as a creative outlet in order to stimulate your mind and help you become a problem solver in the future (Ex. NASA, Writer etc.) D&D does not define what or who you are, you define what D&D means to you, don't let other people impose their definitions on you. Specially if they don't know what they are talking about. Ignorance leads to intolerance. Z
philopharynx 09-15-04, 01:28 AM	http://www.theescapist.com/ This site has a lot of resources to debunk those old 80's myths and help someone understand what the hobby is about. Good Luck!
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 09:22 AM	Hi there everyone, This is my first ever post so i beg your forgiveness if i miss out on some of the standard protocol. Also my spelling really bites. In regards to this topic i have to say.......wow. I have been playing for a number of years in the UK, since about 1993 i suppose. During this time i have never encountered what you are describing. It's almost unbelievable to hear that this level of ignorance exists (i mean that with all respect, ignorance is just a lack of knowledge not a condition of stupidity). I guess i have bumped into people who don't understand DnD and have an uneasiness for that reason alone. But i just can't imagine the position you are describing. To be able to fail to grasp this as a game and nothing more......is just amazing. I love this game, and i know very well, as you all do too, that most people really don't understand the appeal of it in the slightest. But to have.....to even be able to hypothosis a mindset that is 'against' DnD on the grounds that it is somehow inherantly evil.....well that would take a much greater imagination than mine. There is a part of me that really thinks that it would be best if you did explain this to your mum just to enlighten her. She is your mum after all and you have a responsibility to look after her. You may find that her position is not so opposed to DnD as you remember. Does DnD hold more of a stigma these days that Religious Exclusionism? If it does for anyone here, then i recomend lifting your head up high, putting your b****x on the table and stop worrying about what a strange minority think. Unless that minority was actually numbered among your friends and family, i wouldn't even bother to try and enlighten them. Every society has minorities like this and most of the time you are best just staying clear of it. Bottom line. You're grown men for gods sake and this is the 21st century, stop worrying about it.
Big__Chops 09-15-04, 10:20 AM	I dont mean to start my day by causeing any arguements but im sure to draw some attitude on this if i dont word it correctly. I am an amreican. I love american and its people but I have noticed that this sort of problem is predominant in our culture. It has gotten to the point of near blatent STUPIDITY. People who can't/won't take resposability for/accept something automatically blame some obscure reson for something. As an example This game and others like it get blamed for suicide,murder,religious choices,bad grades,and stunted social growth. In america We have managed to become just down right silly and honestly expect other americans to take us seriously. I mean come on... I think a good example I once read was writen by a gamer who made a VERY VALID point.""if 2 people got together for a game of golf(or other game) and then after a poorly played round of golf one player kills the other they call it murder. As soon as D&D is involved then other motives are ignored in favor of claims that it was a game related killing. You however almost never hear of golf slayings." I know this sounds silly to most but my theory about the whole thing is an inherent behavior patern similar to the "salem witch trials" of the early years of our country. People just figure it seemed to work once so hey lets give it another go,or something obsurd like that.I dont know,Im 1/2 asllep and very annoyed that this is a problem in a country that has a good education system in place yet it continues to be a problem. It makes you wonder if things can get any dumber? <end rant> P.S. I forget who it was that said that it was hard telling a significant other that you are a gamer. I submit that it was easy for me and I infact got my wife to play the game. If a relationship is built on trust and understanding then it should not be a problem. <trudges back to bed>
Thorak 09-15-04, 10:50 AM	I disagree, Big_Chops. Not in the general gist of your argument, necessarily, but in some fine points. I'm a Canadian, and it's a national pastime up here to mock Americans. It's not exactly a proud quality, but it's there. Anyhoo, my point is that I've engaged in at least my fair share of America-bashing over the years, and recently I had a bit of an epiphany. I used to think Americans were stupid. They're not. What they somewhat often are is ignorant. For many, this isn't their fault; their society has simply failed to offer proper education and ensure everyone recieves and appreciates it. I'm sure even the Americans on the boards will agree with me when I say your education system tends to the sub-par. And ignorance is marginally more laudable than stupidity. Stupidity can't be corrrected; if you're stupid, you're stupid. Ignorance, however, can be corrected, if the person wishes to learn. It may not be easy, but if they're open-minded, they can correct their ignorant impressions. Now, the problem as I see it is not only has the American educational system failed the general population, but American society encourages ignorance. Who are the most prominent and wealthy people? Movie and TV stars, and athletes. Jobs that can be gotten without any education or real intellect. I'm not saying these jobs are worthless, but they're over-valued in American (and Canadian, for that matter) society. After all, you pay people who can kick a ball well more than you pay doctors trying to cure cancer. And because American society encourages and fosters ignorance, there's a tendency to admire ignorance. Especially in the form of what I referred to earlier as "ignorant faith". It's held up as laudable when someone can maintain their faith despite the best efforts of logical argument, because faith is somehow inherently 'good'. Now, faith is great, but there's no contradiction between faith, and logic and science. Those who claim there is are artificially creating it because they fear what they're ignorant of, because of their poor education and a surrounding society that encourages that belief. Logic is the foundation of rational thought. Logic has been applied to religion, especially Christianity, for thousands of years. It's called 'theology'. Science merely describes the natural rules of the world. In theory, if God exists, he created those rules in the first place. Which means Science is just an attempt to discover God, working from the ground up. The chief difference between science and religion is that religion starts from heaven down, assuming that God exists and then trying to imply the rest. They're not mutually exclusive. They're very, very similar. And they have similar goals. Science doesn't deny God, and religion doesn't deny science. Logic is used in the study of both. The individuals in those fields who do deny such things are ignorant, and are only denying things that they don't understand because of that ignorance. A good scientist refuses to say whether or not God exists; he hasn't found any proof yet one way or the other. A good priest refuses to say that scientific findings, like fossils and theories like evolution, are wrong. Because they obviously exist and make logical sense. And anyone who's studied even the tiniest bit of Christian history quickly realizes that the "Bible is the literal Word of God" is bunk, because it's been edited time and again by various people. Either it's impossible to say which one's "right" definitively, or you admit that the "Word of God" changes depending on the era. In which case, you've got no solid ground to claiming that it's literal unchanging truth to begin with.
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 11:05 AM	Big Chops old boy, i think you are on to something there (perhap with more agreement than is healthy on a board that is 90% stateside). As a casual observer from outside, i do notice that occassionally......some rather....odd things occur in your country. I am not talking about Aliens picking up Rednecks. Its just that occassionally your focus (as a country) is drawn to an object (like DnD) for a reason (such as it leading to Devil worshipping) that is not always entirely obvious. You try and reconcile faith with self-preservation and end up with 'Christians FOR stronger nuclear armament'. You have a problem with youths committing suicide, you blame a transvestite who sings songs. You want to help the world, but you invest enough money to wipe out third world debt into an occupation (based on a principle of liberation) but where the inhabitants hate you. My country is not a whole lot better, no mistakes there, but we (as subjects of the queen ;) ) are a little more comfortable saying when things are just plain wrong. In the case of this thread we have an otherwise bright and able mother and son, who cannot communicate on a subject without either recrimination of fear of recrimination. And the subject is not one of massive ideaological differences. Its a subject of dice rolling and 'lets pretend....'. The context is not one of ancient homelands and generations old grudges, its in the context of faith in the one lord and a bunch of guys who'd rather exercise their imagination round a table than waiting for the next Lord of the Rings Trilogy to come out. I guess, if one takes an Hegalian point of view, that maybe this balance of truth vs prejudice (or perhaps Reality vs Perception of Reality) is one that can only ever tend towards reaching truth. It will probably never get there and we (us enlightened few) must always be confident enough to state the truth, because if we don't.....who will?
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 11:20 AM	Thorak, I think you make a good point too. The varying laudable occupations of human endeavour should not contradict. I think you perhaps underestimate the ineffable nature of faith. I think that the story of Abraham and Isaac pretty well proves that the notion that true faith is paradoxical. But thats not to say that there is not a happy medium between having faith and accepting science (or philosophy for that matter). Its just a matter of education and a paradigm shift away from believing in something just because it was said by a charasmatic leader.
Big__Chops 09-15-04, 11:48 AM	[QUOTE=Thorak] I'm sure even the Americans on the boards will agree with me when I say your education system tends to the sub-par. I agree that our test scores and cultural value we place on Education is sub-par and I think thats sad. We are also a sort of pardox as it were in many ways. For example We say "go to school, get good grades" but the majoraty of the ones who do suffer riddicule on a very basic level. They are all frowned apon as "dorks" "book worms" and "nerds". However the system is infact a good system that is doomed to fail based on cultural double standards. ie the point that uncle made about the movie star,athalete,musician. [QUOTE=Thorak]And ignorance is marginally more laudable than stupidity. Stupidity can't be corrrected; if you're stupid, you're stupid. Ignorance, however, can be corrected, if the person wishes to learn. It may not be easy, but if they're open-minded, they can correct their ignorant impressions. I agree with this fine point but I chose my word based on what was the easyiest and fastest to type as I have been sleeping poorly of late and so I was trying to rush my return to bed. I think that America is a great country and all but we are slowly degenerateing into (globaly speaking) the brain damaged teenagers of the world. We are young and eager to hop on any band wagon (as evidenced by our many diet programs and other fads) with out much fore thought. So much so that people will join misinformed gorups and such just for the sense of belonging. Its like a bizzare mob mentality that ony requires 2 people to form the mob. Another problem as I see it is that americans by and large have become self important. So much so that we(the general public) feel that we don't need to educate ourself on a subject before we speak. Then we express our uninformed opinion and expect exery one to agree. The scary part is that other self important people think that because they are too buisy to find out if what we are hearing is true then the other uninformed person MUST BE RIGHT. Its almost like a propaganda style. <author reserves the right to be totaly wrong and/or rediculous>
Big__Chops 09-15-04, 11:50 AM	that last post the quote thingy didnt work and im too lazy to fix it sorry all
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 12:15 PM	Americans are stupid.....got it. Totally kidding by the way.
Wil Harvey 09-15-04, 12:37 PM	However I have known liberal people who are against D&D. They were religious, so that does seem to be a common thread. I think that the way people normally become anti-D&D is that they lack the ability to distinguish reality and imagination. Yup, that sums up religious people in a nutshell. :) I only kid, of course. I understand the positive effects religion has on many people's lives, and I respect that. I still poke fun at times, though.
Thorak 09-15-04, 12:58 PM	Like I said; religion and science aren't enemies. They're attacking the same problem (why are we here and how do things work?) from two different, but valid, angles, science from the bottom up by only allowing as 'true' those things that are proven, and religion from the top down, by however you want to see it, whether it's "enlightenment", "God's will", "faith", or what have you. The problem comes when ignorance enters the picture, that's where you see scientists claiming God doesn't exist (when there's still unanswered questions, and no proof of any kind that he doesn't), and religious people claiming science is "wrong" because it disagrees with a piece of dogma (typically, because they're incapable of understanding the concept of 'metaphor'.) God created the world in 7 days. Scientifically, you can break the birth of the universe and eventual life into the same 7 'days', if you use the term metaphorically for 'ages'. It may have gotten the order slightly off, but it's a surprisingly accurate metaphor when you consider that it's over 6000 years old (the earliest form of Genesis being in the Sumerian creation myths, almost word-for-word). And science still doesn't know why the universe began. The theory is that there was a big bang, but the theories surrounding what might have sparked it are entirely conjecture, and saying "God did it" has as much validity. They're not mutually exclusive. I consider myself to have a deep faith; I've even considered entering the clergy. I also consider myself to be a scientist, because it makes too much logical sense to be wrong. I think it's absolutely ludicrous that God would create the world in 4004 B.C.E, and create it deliberately old, just to irk future scientists and somehow 'test the faith' of followers. That doesn't test faith in God, it tests faith in dead people's dogma and paradigms. Which should be changed when they're found to be incorrect.
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 01:17 PM	Thorak. I have often though that Religion answers the 'Why' of the problem and science offers the 'How'. Its very open minded of you to hold both so highly. A bit of time doing some Kant is probably just the ticket for you.
jnrhayz 09-15-04, 01:20 PM	Well, I am going to discuss a couple of things. 1) You should tell your mom. I see no reason why not to. She will understand or she won't, but you seem to have a good relationship and I am sure she will except it whether she likes it or not. If she tries to get you to quit or wants to know why then explain why you like it and what is enjoyable about it. 2) I am an American. I love my country. In my experience, our school system sucks. I have learned that they know how to fix it, but don't because they are afraid of offending parents. That is the real problem with our country right now, but I don't really see it any different from any other time in our past. In my view 10% of the people control everything, 30% make all the progress, and 60% are along for the ride. If you look at the 2000 presidential election, only 51% of registered voters actually voted. Sad really, but when you actually look at all the people who have no idea what is really going on then I don't know if it is sad or lucky they don't vote. Probably 20% of that 51% were just told some piece of info they never looked up to see if it was true or not and based their decision on that. Finally to sum up my feelings about world events that involve the United States, 3) “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
The Man from Uncle 09-15-04, 02:01 PM	I agree with Mills on the point he was making. But what point are you trying to express using that sentiment? :P How about.... 'Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should be a universal' Kant 1785 What maxim was this war based on? Anyhow, back on the point. You should tell your Mum if the following two things are true. 1) You respect her 2) DnD is an important part of your life. To be honest, discreation is probably best if you don't see that much of her. There is no point picking a fight if it won't solve anything. But if you are still having to cover it up just tell her straight, both barrells. She's probably not that interested and, as was mentioned above, she'll probably respect you enough to let you make that choice about your life.
UltimateReality 09-17-04, 12:13 AM	Ok no problem. However I have known liberal people who are against D&D. They were religious, so that does seem to be a common thread. Ummm, my mother is against D&D and not for religious reasons (disabused her of that Satanic notion real quick). Mainly it's the Protestant work ethic her father drilled into his kids: "why don't you do something USEFUL or CONSTRUCTIVE with your time?" To which I smile and point out it gets socializing, basic math skills, writing and other creative linguistic pursuits done, and she just kinda sits there cuz she's not quite ready to accept that yet. People progress along their own paths at their own rate, and we can't force them. She used to be completely anti-D&D, even after seeing her nieces and nephews play a game with their pastor as DM. My sister and I quietly made our own variant on D&D (mostly combat/maze-dungeon crawling and basic quest stuff -- we were quite young) and played with each other for a few years, but didn't tell her where it came from. She eventually asked how we came up with such a great system, it being good for our creative systems and so educational and all, and I just flashed her a big smile and said "oh that? We based it on D&D." Out came the PHBs. I still don't see why she's having the problem making the leap to real D&D though. *sigh* But that is her choice, and I don't bombard her with stories of our adventures. In return, she doesn't rag on me when I say "can't do dinner Sunday, got D&D". -UltimateReality
SphericalTime 09-17-04, 12:25 AM	I have to say that my parents were great with D&D. They bought my HEROQUEST, which was a very old rip off board game and eventually it led to this veritable addication. But there's another side to the D&D closet: You do know that some of us are gay, right? I still have trouble coming out to people I'm playing with because I'm afraid that they'll refuse to sit down at the table. Most of my friends are conservative Christians or Jocks. The military and geeks/nerds are the last homophobic bastions.
MonkeyKing 09-17-04, 02:14 AM	This is a joke post right?! Johnny: Mum, you know all those times late at night when I told you I was going out to rob a house to make money to fuel my crack addiction... Mum: Yes honey? Johnny: Well I was really sneaking out to play Dungeons and Dragons. Mum: Oh my, I'm so embarrased, what will the neighbours think?!!
The Man from Uncle 09-17-04, 05:05 AM	You tell'em tree swinger! Truely, DnD is not the shameful pastime that it appears to have been in the US 15 years ago. And those that think of it as in anyway evil are now in the fruitcake minority, not you. But with due sensitivity (something i have ,on the whole ,been granted in my own akward thread), i say only tell your mum if it will solve more problems than it creates. Obvious i know. But while honesty is the best policy, a simple lack of lying can somtimes be even better. Just don't mention it. If she asks or it becomes hard for her not to find out, tell her then.
Cyricist 09-17-04, 07:02 AM	I agree with Uncle on this one. Just let it be. A lot of mums have no idea what their kids do these days, and DnD is about the safest passtime you can keep from her :). It's part of growing up too, it's your life, you own passtime :). Leave mum out untill unavoidable.
The Man from Uncle 09-21-04, 07:48 AM	I take it all back. I just saw these web pages and after serious consideration i realised.......dam your country is messed up. Good luck to you dealing with people that have anything like these following pages on their mind. [color=red}WizO_Catoblepas: Please refrain from posting Jack Chick links on the Wizard Community boards. Such activity is considered a violation of the Code of Conduct.[/color] The metaphysical inconsistancies in that second arguement are boarderline special needs. I've changed my mind, Christians in your country are freaking dangerous.
Thorak 09-21-04, 09:15 AM	I take it all back. I just saw these web pages and after serious consideration i realised.......dam your country is messed up. Good luck to you dealing with people that have anything like these following pages on their mind. The metaphysical inconsistancies in that second arguement are boarderline special needs. I've changed my mind, Christians in your country are freaking dangerous. Hence, as one of their Canuck neighbours, my vehemence on the subject of science and religion not being antitheses. I figure, if they've got zealots who refuse to listen to anything approaching reason, the best way to fight them is to expose their arguments as the lunacy they are. And that Chick stuff is disturbing, I've read it before. Especially since he's got absolutely no support for anything he says. It's less disturbing that he says it than that he doesn't get treated as one of the ridiculous foil-hat-wearing idiots out there who think alien zombie furries from Mars are secretly controlling elections to maintain the Zionist Illuminati control. I can handly lunacy. I can't handle it when people accept it as some kind of 'truth'. And the Chick stuff is as close to insane as I've ever seen.
The Man from Uncle 09-21-04, 11:42 AM	Thorak- 'the best way to fight them is to expose their arguments as the lunacy they are.' My previous blissful ignorance would have lead me to conclude with the same sentiment, but the arguements as explained by Mr Chick are virtually contradictory even in their basic construction. If someone thinks in paradox where do you even start? His comments on 'World views', one being of magic and the other of religion are frankly........there really is no word. How does someone who holds the second world view even countenance the first? Christianity has enough problems without necessitating the logical existance of magic just so that God can be against it. I read it again and he seems genuinly to believe in magic......but still be a christian. Thorak - 'It's less disturbing that he says it than that he doesn't get treated as one of the ridiculous foil-hat-wearing idiots out there who think alien zombie furries from Mars are secretly controlling elections to maintain the Zionist Illuminati control.' Agreed. But just so i am clear.......you do have a problem (in the US) with people who really buy into this. They read the words as Chick says them.....and they......(stunned consideration) agree? At least alien conspiricies are metaphysically possible. What he says is 'A-Logical'. The sentances don't even all make sense let alone the idea as a whole. Right i am making it my quest to utterly devastate these people and get them discredited and locked up as they bloody should be. Thorak, please temper my outrage with some words of Christian wisdom or i am very likely going to offend people on the Christian web pages
Arrowhen 09-21-04, 12:23 PM	or i am very likely going to offend people on the Christian web pages Nah, I doubt anything you do is going to offend them. More likely it's going to just encourage them more. Rembember, these are people who have been taught that being persecuted is a good thing because it means that the end of the world is getting closer. Which they believe is also a good thing. Be aware, however, that invoking the name of J@ck Ch!ck is usually a very effective method of getting a thread locked. ;)
The Man from Uncle 09-21-04, 12:33 PM	I've been thrown out a Hare Krinshna temple and taken a Jehovah witness (after they knocked on my door) to the pub. Offending Christians is is like breaking glass with a machine gun.
Arrowhen 09-21-04, 01:40 PM	If you're referring to Christians in general then yes, there's an almost infinite variety of ways to offend them, from wearing t-shirts with naughty words on them to simply living a decent life guided by hope instead of fear. However, when you spoke of offending people on the christian web pages I took that to mean the hard-core fanatic types. They tend to be pretty un-offendable. Sure, you can goad them into ranting at you or praying for you (which is one of the few things that genuinely offends me), but nothing you do seems to really affect them personally. When you worship a god who is offended by everything I guess there's not a lot of room to be personally offended by anything.
Thorak 09-21-04, 02:12 PM	My previous blissful ignorance would have lead me to conclude with the same sentiment, but the arguements as explained by Mr Chick are virtually contradictory even in their basic construction. If someone thinks in paradox where do you even start? His comments on 'World views', one being of magic and the other of religion are frankly........there really is no word. How does someone who holds the second world view even countenance the first? Christianity has enough problems without necessitating the logical existance of magic just so that God can be against it. I read it again and he seems genuinly to believe in magic......but still be a christian. I start by not trying to change their minds, because they've decided lunacy is "right". I just point out to anyone with an ounce of reason in their heads how insane they are, so there's as little chance as possible for anyone new to be deluded into following along. It's not a short-term fix, but if we can get people to be smart enough these zealots will die off. Now that we have the Internet, they can either become hermits from society, or we can get ahold of their kid's minds before they get too clouded. Now we just need to get religion taught in school. Not a specific religion, mind, but the basics about the various world faiths so you know things like that Bhudda isn't, strictly speaking, a 'god', and some basic theological principles. Because it really, really disturbs me when modern Christians have difficulty with concepts theologians settled hundreds of years ago. Not because the concepts are necessarily easy, but the theologians, accepted by their church, already printed up answers for them, they just refuse to read them. Agreed. But just so i am clear.......you do have a problem (in the US) with people who really buy into this. They read the words as Chick says them.....and they......(stunned consideration) agree? At least alien conspiricies are metaphysically possible. What he says is 'A-Logical'. The sentances don't even all make sense let alone the idea as a whole. Right i am making it my quest to utterly devastate these people and get them discredited and locked up as they bloody should be. Thorak, please temper my outrage with some words of Christian wisdom or i am very likely going to offend people on the Christian web pages I'm not sure I qualify as "Christian", because I know far too much about the history to buy into a lot of the dogma. To pick a topic, Genesis is almost word-for-word the Sumerian creation myth. And the Sumerians were pantheistic. This explains why God is speaking to 'himself' in Eden and referring to 'himself' in the plural sense; "We have created man in our image..."; originally, the text was a discussion between two gods. When it was adjusted for Judaic and then Christian purposes, they neglected to change the pronouns. But to the point; this comes back to what I was saying about 'ignorant faith', as distinct from blind faith. There's a number of, primarily American, Christians who uphold ignorance as an ideal. They don't want to hear what Science has to say; they might have to think about it, and they don't want to go through that kind of effort, especially if it might make them ask questions of their church. Questions are good, and if their pastor/minister/whatever can't answer them, then he has no business being in that position. Heck, I'm not a minister, and I can answer most of them in such a way as to uphold both religious tenets and scientific findings. I don't consider myself 'special', I just consider myself open-minded and willing to see things as metaphor rather than literal truth, especially since the idea of the Bible as the "word of God" is such utter bunk, since the Bible has changed many times. Either God's word is changing, and thus we can't take what it currently says as the all-out Truth, or our understanding of it changes, and therefore we have to be open to new, better, interpretations. Like those that mesh with, rather than conflict with, scientific discovery. That said, it can be fun to torment ignorant Christians (by which I mean those who uphold it as an ideal, not those who are just uneducated but willing to learn/think). I had one girl confront me about my ideas and try and argue theology with me. She claimed to be a devout Catholic. By the end of it, she couldn't speak, because I'd been quoting bits of the Bible at her which she wasn't aware of and couldn't respond to. I've heard that since she's lost her faith. I wasn't trying to get her to lose her faith. But opening someone's eyes can have that effect, not because they can't maintain faith but because they connect the concept to the lies and misinformation they've held. That said, they need their eyes opened if they can. It'll hurt like hell, but they'll be the better for it. I'd rather have them be atheistic thinkers than mindless god-sheep. Cause then I can step into my logical and scientific proofs of the existence of God. Which usually confuses them more, which is fun.
The Man from Uncle 09-21-04, 04:55 PM	I got a lot of time for you Thorak. I guess you've probably done your degree now (and not doen too shabby a job at it). I'd be very interested to know what your scientific proofs are for the existance of God (go with bones of it, i'll probably get the gist). Most Christians I know arn't too receptive to having faith reduced to logic. I myself am rather convinced that the Abraham Isaac story pretty much covers faith as necessarily paradoxical. (A transendental suspension of the ethical if you will). Now this might sound daft or like trolling (I assure you i am more interested in getting a good answer than a good reaction) but why are you not Musilm instead of Christian? If you knock off the cultural trappings you're basically on the same page but with a more plausable genealogy.
Kelyme 09-21-04, 06:13 PM	I am Christian and I believe pretty much all of the basic ideas the bible teaches, that dosen't mean that all people who are Christian should be viewed to have the same beliefs as radicals such as Chick, there are way too many hypocritical Christians out there and I am afraid he is probobly one of them. I play D&D as frequently as possible, wish to have a career in video games, write all the time about violence and such, but as long as you have faith in what you believe in this real makes no difference at all, I know the difference between fiction and reality, I am just trying to quench my creativity with all my activities. It is a real pain in the ass that my mom thinks d&d is evil, especially when she freely lets me play video games and magic the gathering. I think she understood it a bit more when I said it is like playing a video game that is only limited by your imagination. I will try to explain it better to her in the future but she usually attacks me the day after I play, and since I have just gotten about 3 hours of sleep and would really like some rest I ususually don't have much to say in those situations.
eudas 09-21-04, 06:40 PM	if you are in college, then you are no longer a child and do not have to seek approval for your legal pastimes. stop putting yourself in a submissive position of seeking approval. put yourself in a position of equality -- this is what i do, this is why i do it, this is what i get out of it, this is some information about it -- but do not allow yourself to be chastised for doing anything that you enjoy that is not harmful to yourself or others, simply because they disapprove. they don't have to like it, they don't even have to accept it, but they do have to accept that it is your right to do it. eudas
Arrowhen 09-21-04, 06:57 PM	I just can't believe that a thread mentioning J@ck Ch!ck has stayed open this long.
Thorak 09-21-04, 09:47 PM	I got a lot of time for you Thorak. I guess you've probably done your degree now (and not doen too shabby a job at it). I'd be very interested to know what your scientific proofs are for the existance of God (go with bones of it, i'll probably get the gist). Most Christians I know arn't too receptive to having faith reduced to logic. I myself am rather convinced that the Abraham Isaac story pretty much covers faith as necessarily paradoxical. (A transendental suspension of the ethical if you will). I'm not finished my degree; I'm in the final year of my Honours, but I could have graduated last year with a BA if I'd chosen to do so, I had all the credits required for it. So in one way I have a degree, but I have yet to recieve the paper. And my area of focus is History, primarily anything Medieval or earlier, with focuses on Church history and Western European. One amusing scientific 'proof' of God is one that examines the basic physics of the Universe. I shant get into the fine details, but a good science fiction novel that covers the relevant bits is Calculating God, by Robert Sawyer. Basically, it involves looking at the astronomically small chances that life could exist, centering around atomic qualities and such. If the mass of the universe were slightly greater, it could never have exploded in a Big Bang due to gravity/atomic binding forces, and if it were slightly smaller, it wouldn't have had the energy to do so. Water, which so far as we know is required for life to exist, has unique properties like expanding when frozen, which result in lakes that freeze and then lock in heat so they don't freeze straight through; if they froze bottom-up like any other liquid, they'd stay frozen much longer and life would be much more difficult to get started. Et cetera, et cetera. It's not a 'proof' because it's all circumstantial, but nobody's really 'proven' gravity either. Science is almost exclusively all best-guesses. And no, this isn't conclusive, but it is interesting. As for a logical one; here's a dandy short one as to why you should believe in God. If you believe, and he doesn't exist, you're wrong but it doesn't hurt you. If you don't believe and he doesn't exist, you get the small satisfaction of being right before you puff out. So if God doesn't exist, there's a small loss to believing, and a small benefit to being atheist. If God does exist, and you believe, then you get to spend eternity in Heaven. If you don't, you go to Hell. So if he does exist, there's a big benefit to believing, and a big penalty to not. So which would you prefer, big potential gain with small potential loss, or big potential loss with small potential gain? Believing is statistically better. There's others, but they're more complicated, and a quick Google just turns up so many ridiculous pseudo-science garbage that I'm not mucking through it. Now this might sound daft or like trolling (I assure you i am more interested in getting a good answer than a good reaction) but why are you not Musilm instead of Christian? If you knock off the cultural trappings you're basically on the same page but with a more plausable genealogy. I don't consider myself Muslim because I haven't read the Qu'ran. I also don't consider myself Christian, because I disagree with a lot of the dogma. If I had to name myself something, it would be "follower of Christ", as distinct from "Christian". The distinction being that I'm well aware of the historical context, and the implications inherent in the Bible and other texts found in places like the Dead Sea Scrolls, and thus am not willing to accept certain points of dogma. But Christ was by every account we have a great thinker and probably prophet, and his words resonate pretty firmly with my own thoughts. That said, I find Bhuddism fascinating. But don't know enough to claim anything there either. But one of the fundamental concepts of my personal faith is that, whether you call it God, Jehovah, YHWH, Allah, or even Zeus and friends, you're talking about the same thing. God's a big guy. He can handle more than one name. Claiming that other people are evil because they use a different name is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. Especially since, even within Christian cultures, you get John, Johann, Jean, etc, all for the same human.
The Man from Uncle 09-22-04, 06:50 AM	They are some pretty decent and well established thoughts. And though they are pretty traditional, the reason they have endured is becuase they are good. I used to characterise myself as an apathetic agnostic on the grounds that if God had created me that was his own business. With no comparisson or conception on non-existance how could i really aprecaite what God had given me? And would a good god really burden his creation with debt? If i am made in gods image thats as being a creater and master of my own fate. I just figured whether there was a god or not didn't matter, his existance was his own business. I just wanted to get on with what i did and could know, living.
oldmandm 09-22-04, 02:07 PM	Religion is a powderkeg topic people and only leads to hurt feelings fustration and WWII .. He should tell his mom (though it's in the past) to clear the air. If he's asked the question here on this forum, then he's obviously thinking alot about it. Regarding Uncles post with the links.. Gives you an idea of the extremist views some people/ organizations have. There's a quote in the bible "Love not the world nor the things in the world, if you love the world the love of the lord is not in you" Don't ask me how i know that :rolleyes: If a christian must "abstain from appearances of evil" etc.. Then what is the purpose of a christian website.. on the internet with the porn..? Just my two cents.. :D
Arrowhen 09-22-04, 02:23 PM	There's a quote in the bible "Love not the world nor the things in the world, if you love the world the love of the lord is not in you" Hello, I'm an all-knowing all-powerful loving God. I created you. I also created this world, this universe, this infinte and beautiful panoply of things to experience and explore. The day I created it I myself said it was good. (And I should know, being all-knowing.) But if you like it, then you must hate Me. Oh, and by the way... if you're a little kid and you make fun of one of My prophets for being bald, I'll have you EATEN BY BEARS!
The Man from Uncle 09-22-04, 02:25 PM	I think that in terms of bible quotes (taking as read that virtually every copy of the bible is at odds with every other copy) you can't much beat genesis 1:12. '....and from the earth came the herb with the bubs and the seeds.....and god saw that is was good.' Yeah dam right he did! (i didn't get much further through the book than that). Oldmanm - 'Religion is a powderkeg topic people and only leads to hurt feelings fustration and WWII .. ' Heck it lead to genecide, the Spanish inquisition, telly-vangelists, Godspeed and Republicans. Dear God, please let us keep evolving so that we may at last be rid of the curse that requires us to explain our own existance in terms of something we don't understand and don't agree about.
The Man from Uncle 09-22-04, 02:27 PM	Arrowhen - 'Hello, I'm an all-knowing all-powerful loving God. I created you. I also created this world, this universe, this infinte and beautiful panoply of things to experience and explore. The day I created it I myself said it was good. (And I should know, being all-knowing.) But if you like it, then you must hate Me. Oh, and by the way... if you're a little kid and you make fun of one of My prophets for being bald, I'll have you EATEN BY BEARS!' Hmmmm........i don't think thats in the bible at all.
Arrowhen 09-22-04, 02:48 PM	"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." 2 Kings 2:23-24 For more wacky Biblical fun, check out: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
oldmandm 09-22-04, 02:53 PM	AAaah LOL Republicans :D Just ask catholic alter boys :D
oldmandm 09-22-04, 02:56 PM	Sorry. I don't mean to make fun of or light of the horrors the alterboys went through. Or pick on a given religion. They all have their faults. Republicans... :D too cool Uncle ;)
Arrowhen 09-22-04, 03:06 PM	Holy :censored:! Jack Chick, real world religion, real world politics, drug references... this thread has it all! And it's still alive! It's like when you have one of those encounters where there's that ONE kobold that no one can seem to hit. You know he's going down eventually, but you can't help admire his pluck as he keeps dodging those arrows and making those saves.
Thorak 09-22-04, 07:24 PM	Religion is a powderkeg topic people and only leads to hurt feelings fustration and WWII .. Religion is only a powderkeg topic that people get hurt discussing because people are ignorant of the faith they claim to hold. Again, anyone who's intelligent and reasonable isn't going to get mad discussing religion. That's called "theology", and every church worth a darn engages in it. And I refuse to not discuss something because people are too ignorant to understand me. Not that I'm claiming that of anyone here; I'm making a general point. I could quote a few doozies from the Bible, myself, but I'll refrain because I'm really not looking to get into Christian-bashing. And all those odd quotes have reasonable explanations theologically, usually involving words like "metaphor". It's those too ignorant to understand the concept who A> don't know about the quotes and B> can't handle having them pointed out, because they can't understand them and aren't willing to learn.
WizO_Catoblepas 09-22-04, 08:23 PM	Ok, that's enough about taking about religions. It's against the Code of Conduct since discussion of religion usually lead to attacks of the religion, something people hold true to them. Thus, discussion of religion becomes baiting since it always results in negative responses. Furthermore, it is off topic for this board. I'm closing this thread. Please do not restart this discussion again.