Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quintar 02-04-07, 10:52 AM	Hello, ok, there's a decent sized group of us. 5 + DM, plus people who kinda come and go. now, 2 of us played together before, we play the 3 core books, and don't know alot about the other books. one of the other guys is the same way. so we have a warlock in our party they can seem to be a mini god. we are lvl's 10-11 lvl 11 warlock, from what i could make out from the arcane he has these invocations. eldritch blast baleful utterance darkness devil's sight entropic warding see the unseen fell flight hungry darkness walk unseen lesser blast invocation eldritch chain and he can do all this stuff as many times as he wants per day and some of them at will. and he has some red scarf thing to make his eldritch blast even stronger???? this seems WWWAAAYYY too powerful. are we missing something or are warlocks this overpowered?? i'm a lvl 11 monk from the PHB. nothing weird or funny. even with some major magical items, i still wouldn't be on be a decent fight with this guy. and since i have your attention. im a grappling tripping monk. i'm about to get a feat at lvl 12. is there anything that would power my character up to help match some?? same for cleric? any weird items out there that would help? a belt of wrestling for my grapples or anything?? something to give pluses to trips?? thanks for any help everyone. Mike
mkill 02-04-07, 12:15 PM	This thread came up every month since CA came out, and I'm sorry I answer instead of just giving links. First of all, I write this very often, but here it is again: Don't judge power levels by what's written on the paper. Judge it by game experience. So there's a Warlock lvl 11. He does a "scary" 6d6 damage with one attack per round. Tell that to the rogue, who does 6d6 extra damage twice per round with a full attack routine while flanking. Your monk has a +8/+8/+8/+3 flurry for 1d10 + Str, unless you already took Improved Natural Attack, in which case you are at four times 2d8 + Str. Oh, and you can use the flurry at will. The generalist wizard, the full caster with the fewest spells per day, has 4 + 4 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 22 spells memorized, so in the average 4 encounters per day he can cast a spell in the first five rounds easily, before he has to resort to wands and scrolls. That's not counting stuff like Mage Armor with 11 hour duration. In any way, even the generalist wizard will seldom run out of spells at 11th level. Then, compare what the warlock can do with his invocations with what the wizard can do with his spells. You'll notice that it's like a cucumber peeler who wants to match a swiss army knife. A few clues: He has no real alternative to do damage except his invocations. The invocation list is very short, and there are many similar ones. He only gets 12 invocations, and he needs them both for improving the blast and for special effects. He hardly has anything that affects other characters than him. lvl 11 warlock, from what i could make out from the arcane he has these invocations. eldritch blast baleful utterance darkness devil's sight entropic warding see the unseen fell flight hungry darkness walk unseen lesser blast invocation eldritch chain An 11th level warlock has 7 invocations. So a) your friend already spent 2 feats here b) he cheated c) you can't count to 7 and he can do all this stuff as many times as he wants per day and some of them at will. :banghead: That's the point of the Warlock. What's next? Complaining that the Wizard can learn almost every spell? and he has some red scarf thing to make his eldritch blast even stronger???? So he has a magic item. At 11th level. Unbelievable. I guess the rest of the group is fighting with toothpicks and make their own armor from old newspapers. this seems WWWAAAYYY too powerful. are we missing something or are warlocks this overpowered?? Learning to count to 7 would be a start. i'm a lvl 11 monk from the PHB. nothing weird or funny. even with some major magical items, i still wouldn't be on be a decent fight with this guy. Well, did you run a trial fight? and since i have your attention. im a grappling tripping monk. i'm about to get a feat at lvl 12. is there anything that would power my character up to help match some?? same for cleric? any weird items out there that would help? a belt of wrestling for my grapples or anything?? something to give pluses to trips?? Ok, what you want to do is: Quit whining Realize the Warlock is on your side and an ally Realize that D&D is a cooperative game, and when the warlock kills something, you get the XP too Realize that if a monk and a warlock work together, they are both stronger than if they play "I get the orc before you do" Post your character on he character optimization board, where questions like this belong Ignore the laughter and sniding comments when you ask them to push the 11th level cleric to "keep up with the warlock" (sorry, but it's bound to happen)
ravenshrike 02-04-07, 01:32 PM	Any point about the Wiz being able to use magic items like scrolls and such is irrelevant, as a 'lock would have 14+4+10=28 on his UMD, with another +2 to +4 for scrolls depending on his skill point distribution. This means he can pretty much cast anything. The only thing he'd have to roll for is emulating an alignment for a special item. What a Wiz/Sorc/Cler/Dru can do with magic items, a Warlock can do better.
Witch 02-04-07, 01:36 PM	The Warlock is underpowered. Do away with the shortsightedness.
mkill 02-04-07, 01:45 PM	@ravenshrike: For pretty much any divine item the wizard might want to use, there is an equal or better arcane spell. The only exception are healing and remove spells. That's where the cleric comes in. He simply doesn't need UMD because his spell list is big enough. So yes, the Warlock can use magic items better than a wizard or a cleric individually, but if you have both wizard (or sorc) and cleric (or druid) in the party (one level is enough, except for scrolls) you don't need the warlock. And don't forget that Warlocks have a meager 2 skill points per level and often only average Int, so that maxed out UMD comes at a price, especially when he also wants to get the synergy bonus. The original point was the following: Warlocks have invocations at will, but high-level arcane and divine casters have enough slots they hardly run out of spells, and even if they do they can still use their wands. So yes, warlocks can use wands to, and they have to when they face a situation their 7 invocations can't solve. After all, I'd say it's a tie when it comes to magic item use.
danielinthewolvesden 02-04-07, 03:17 PM	The Warlock can be quite powerful in a game where the DM has far more than the standard 4 encounters before resting. Those are quite rare, and it really nerfs Wizards. However, the Psion is by far and away the most powerful in the much more common game where the DM has less than 4. The Wizard is more powerful than the Warlock in the standard 4 encounters per day game.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-04-07, 03:24 PM	The warlock can be very powerful at low levels. But at those levels, regular arcane casters are very limited. At higher levels the warlock falls behind the power curve (not quite a straight fighter). The key thing to know is that the warlock doesn't play like a caster. At high levels, a true caster leaves the warlock behind in both versatility and actual power of the spells (or invocations). The warlock is more of a supernatural archer than a mage.
Erato 02-04-07, 03:38 PM	... and he can do all this stuff as many times as he wants per day and some of them at will. and he has some red scarf thing to make his eldritch blast even stronger???? this seems WWWAAAYYY too powerful. are we missing something or are warlocks this overpowered?? Be sure to check if the build in question is even legal. 90% of the time, this sort of complaint is posted because the DM and players have misunderstood the rules. Try to start by doing the following: 1: Confirm that the player has spent 2 feats to purchase his extra powers. 2: Make sure to read up on the shatter spell. (There was a thread recently, where a DM complained, that letting the warlock’s baleful utterance affect magic objects AND denying non-magical items their saves made the warlock overpowered. The fact that this was his own ruling, and wasn’t supported by RAW, didn’t seem to matter). 3: Use the 3.5 version of darkness. (1 of the most frustrating tactics (according to the complaints on the boards) is the combination of darkness and devil’s sight. There’s dozens of ways to counter it, the easiest way is to remember that darkness doesn’t grant total concealment) 4: Take into consideration that his chausible of fell power (the thing that improves his EB) takes up his neck slot, which is normally used for CON and natural armor. 5: Stop thinking about him as a mage with unlimited spell slots, but rather as a specialized archer. 6: Look at what he gives up. (He has no way of dealing the same amount of damage as the traditional warriors and mages. He has few skill points. He’s inflexible unless he spends feats and xp to craft.) 7: Think long and hard about it… How often has your mages run out of spells past level 5? (If this happens often, I suggest the reserve feats from Complete Mage) 8: Read some of the hundreds of threads about the subject for more information. (If you can’t find them (doubtful), then notice that, while search function is down, google (site:boards1.wizards.com + your subject) will do nicely) That’s all for now :)
DreadArchon 02-04-07, 09:01 PM	The Warlock is fun, but (as mentioned) it's actually underpowered in most situations. The ability to do everything infinitely sounds nice in theory, but in reality it only comes up if the Sorceror or Wizard would normally have run out of spells at a given point. In my experience, a mage has triple the options of a Warlock and just as much freedom to use them, making him much better (mitigated only by the Warlock's higher BAB, d6 hit die, and light armor, all of which really do factor in).
quintar 02-05-07, 01:36 AM	maybe i'm wrong (by the sounds of it i am) but it seems with the group of us. the 2 that have and use the complete arcane and the complete warrior (ninja (dragonborn/elf thing)) seem to be able to do alot more things then the ones of us who only know the core books. his eldritch blast does like 8d6 (with the red scarf) with the chain ability that's 32d6 possibly. each round. (as long as their are within 30') to me, that seem alot more powerful then any other class i know (again, i don't know alot of none PHB ones) the 1/2 dragon/elf ninja thing, doesn't seem any where as powerful. he seems like a thief that can fly and go invisible for limited a limited time. thanks for a different point of view. i do see some other ways of looking at him now atleast.
Yokomohoyo 02-05-07, 02:24 AM	Ok so he deals 8d6 per round but he still has to target the character. Your fire ball deals how much again? 10d6 and with a reflex of 1/2 damage. But if an enemy dodges his ray attack (thats what edrich blast is really) it deals 0d6 and if they dodge your fire ball you still deal 5d6... Not to mention if you cast a fire ball into a group of enemies they all take damage... I still have yet to see why the warlock is overpowered.
Yadot 02-05-07, 02:40 AM	maybe i'm wrong (by the sounds of it i am) but it seems with the group of us. the 2 that have and use the complete arcane and the complete warrior (ninja (dragonborn/elf thing)) seem to be able to do alot more things then the ones of us who only know the core books. his eldritch blast does like 8d6 (with the red scarf) with the chain ability that's 32d6 possibly. each round. (as long as their are within 30') to me, that seem alot more powerful then any other class i know (again, i don't know alot of none PHB ones) the 1/2 dragon/elf ninja thing, doesn't seem any where as powerful. he seems like a thief that can fly and go invisible for limited a limited time. thanks for a different point of view. i do see some other ways of looking at him now atleast. Even with Eldricth Chain he can only do 24d6 damage and that is only 8d6 per person (he can't attack somebody more than once with this). Compare this to a fighter archer: 3 arrows that do 1d8+7(assume 20 strength and weapon specialization) and since your 11th level he can assuredly afford to make it at least a +1 flaming shocking collision bow for an average of 24 damage per peson, the same as the warlocks 24.
ShadowDragon8685 02-05-07, 10:45 AM	Warlocks are nice in a fight because they do dependable damage (Not many monsters have the Touch AC to evade), but that's it. In all honesty, the best reasons to have a Warlock are Invisibility + Flight at will, and you can do that with a +4 LA Pixie, too. Actually, you get Improved Invisibility, so that's actually better... And sure, the Warlock gets some nice Blast Shapes and Blast Essances, but to do that he has to give up Invocations - those nifty spell-likes at will. Warlocks are fun to play, but they're really underpowered. Their main ability is longevity and the ability to fire from out of the range of melee characters too specialized to carry a ranged attack.
Novabomb 02-05-07, 10:59 AM	I guess the OP has never heard of CoDzilla, or the wizard class.
Erato 02-05-07, 11:36 AM	his eldritch blast does like 8d6 (with the red scarf) with the chain ability that's 32d6 possibly. each round. (as long as their are within 30') to me, that seem alot more powerful then any other class i know (again, i don't know alot of none PHB ones) Read it again…. At level 11 he can hit 3 targets, and only the first deals full damage (the rest takes only half damage). That means he can’t deal more than 16d6 if he hits ALL 3 targets. Missing just 1 link breaks the chain. Put him up against something with a high touch ac, like a monk, or something with high DEX, or with insight or deflection bonuses to armor etc, etc, and he’s screwed. Compare this to a fireball. Provided there’s 3 enemies in the radius (there might be more) and 2 of them make their save, it’s still 15d6. Only 1d6 less than the MAXIMUM damage the warlock can deal. And that’s a 3rd level spell, the time the wizard has access to 6th level spells, AND it’s not even close to the damage the fireball could deal under better conditions. There’s a saying that goes: “Anything can be overpowered when you cheat”. And even if your friend doesn’t do this deliberately (he might have misread the books), the point still stands.
Erato 02-05-07, 11:48 AM	maybe i'm wrong (by the sounds of it i am) but it seems with the group of us. the 2 that have and use the complete arcane and the complete warrior (ninja (dragonborn/elf thing)) seem to be able to do alot more things then the ones of us who only know the core books. Well, that goes without saying. They’re using more materials, so they have more options. More options = bigger chance to make the most optimal choice for your character. The options (feats, classes etc) from the books don’t have to be more powerful than the ones in core, but having more of them is an advantage. I suggest either banning anything non-core, or start reading the books yourself. I recommend the latter, since I believe it’s nice to be able to play many different types of characters. Or you could just play a strait cleric or druid, since that easily outshines almost anything outside the core books. Ps. Ninja is in Complete Adventurer, not Warrior
WhiteRaven810 02-05-07, 07:04 PM	I didn't read every post, but invest in Improved Natural Attack on the twelvth level to up your Unarmed Damage. For magic items, I've always loved the Monk's Belt. Suddenly your eleventh th level Monk runs, attacks, and has an AC bonus like a sixteenth level Monk.
Grod_The_Giant 02-05-07, 07:30 PM	Read over the warlock class carefully, then ask to see his character sheet. Check all his feats. Is he cheating? (you can always say you're just curious). Anyway, he's doing what? 6d6 a round? Compare that to an 11th level wizard, who can petrify a foe, do 22d6 damage with one ray spell, an 11d6 cone, give up to 4 negative levels...need I go on? If the warlock is outshining EVERYONE, something's up. Maybe you need to optomize your characters a bit more.
mkill 02-06-07, 02:12 AM	maybe i'm wrong (by the sounds of it i am) but it seems with the group of us. the 2 that have and use the complete arcane and the complete warrior (ninja (dragonborn/elf thing)) seem to be able to do alot more things then the ones of us who only know the core books. It would be fair if everybody in the group can use the same books. Talk to this with your DM. Maybe you can borrow one of the books to optimize your character, or the DM can help you do it. his eldritch blast does like 8d6 (with the red scarf) with the chain ability that's 32d6 possibly. each round. (as long as their are within 30') to me, that seem alot more powerful then any other class i know (again, i don't know alot of none PHB ones) You're both wrong on the maximum damage and the range, but someone else already wrote that. Oh, and it's really no problem to deal that amount of damage with a core lvl 11 wizard. Heck, a vanilla wizard without any optimization can do a Chain Lightning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm) for 11d6 on the main target and 11 times 6d6 on secondary targets. That's 77d6 in my book. Contrary to the warlock, who deals no damage on a miss, a Reflex save still only means half damage. So yes, you can do A FRICKING LOT better than the 16d6 of the warlock at 11th level. Sorry, but next time before you make such a claim, spend 5 minutes looking at the PHB whether you're actually wrong, because it only took me 10 seconds internet lookup to prove you wrong
aotrscommander 02-06-07, 08:40 AM	Having now actually played a Warlock myself, albeit in Neverwinter 2, where the warlock is even worse off (no item creation, no fell flight), I can definately say their ability to deal damage is not hugely considerable, if it is steady. Even with Eldritch Doom (the top of the list for blast shapes, the best) 9D6 to any target in a 20' radius is still less than a Fireball (though it has a better save). 11D6 with a Greater Chasable of Fell Power isn't much better. By the time a Warlock gets that a wizard will have 8th level spells (e.g. Horrid Wilting 16D6 uptyped to every target within a 60' radius, Fort save for half), and unless you are fighting hundreds of foes, is unlikely to run out of spells. Warlocks are not casters. They are like having a guy with a big laser along (and not even a big laser until much later!) What Warlock do do is provide consistant, steady damage. By the time you get Vitrolic Blast, there is practically nothing a Warlock can't do some damage to. But, even a reasonably maxed fighter - to say nothing of caster class (which a Warlock isn't) - will out damage them.
Merestil Haye 02-06-07, 09:19 AM	If you assume that the Warlock character took Extra Invocation at 6th level and 9th level the invocation list is perfectly legal. Indeed, I'd argue that it's underpowered since the character has no Greater invocation; I'd expect five Least, three Lesser and one Greater. Are the rules on ranged attacks being enforced? (-4 to hit in melee, cover bonuses etc.) Or has the character taken Precise Shot? SR applies to the Eldritch Blast since its a Spell-Like Ability (with added somatic components, so it can't be used in a grapple). The only easy way around it is Vitriolic Blast - which the character didn't take. For your character, you need something to give you flight and the ability to see hidden things clearly. Your main task - taking out enemy spellcasters - cannot be accomplished if you can't reach them because they're 80' off the ground and invisible to boot. What to take as a feat is difficult to come up with ideas for because we don't know what you already have.
turalisj 02-06-07, 10:00 AM	maybe i'm wrong (by the sounds of it i am) but it seems with the group of us. the 2 that have and use the complete arcane and the complete warrior (ninja (dragonborn/elf thing)) seem to be able to do alot more things then the ones of us who only know the core books. There is the problem right there. Go out and buy some books other than core.