Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChaosMiles 07-16-07, 12:29 AM	Hey all, first to explain myself... I'm pretty much a newb with D&D but I have done roleplaying before. A few weeks ago I joined a campaign in which we were allowed to choose our class but not our race... our characters had been the subjects of magic testing and apparently were transformed from what they originally were, and either as a part of the process or the result, lost all of their memories, and their hair. Since I have a slightly paranoid nature in roleplaying, I chose to be the group's rogue. At the time, I thought I was free to do what I wanted with my alignment, so my character took on a true neutral outlook. But according to the DM, it turns out that "your hair grows back a golden color, and you have the relentless urge to do good." then later while attempting to jump onto a ramp, my character sprouts white wings. Turns out I'm a Half-Celestial. Maybe it's only a complication since I'm a newb, but I'm having a hard time justifying a half-celestial rogue. or maybe I'm just a little frustrated since I couldn't play the alignment I chose from the beginning. I can hear the snickering now... (pfft, newb.) Complication number two then came into play. Since finding out that the DM had pre-made races for every character, I assumed there was a reason behind why I was that specific race, and perhaps a plotline to discover since the character had lost all their memories. But then the DM asked where our characters were from, and after all the other players had announced their homelands, I was... confused. I apparently needed to make my own history, which I wasn't prepared to do. (pfft, newb.) Bear with me, please. So I'm perfectly willing to accept that these complications arose from bad communication and assumptions on both ends. (between me the newb, and the DM and the regular players.) Question time! Based on these circumstances, is it fair of the DM to "erase" my character if I don't play the alignment I -should- be based on the race I didn't choose? So say it's fair just because DM says. Okay, I still want to play, so I'll play by his rules. I'm having a hard time coming up with the basis of philosophy of a half-celestial rogue. I know being a rogue doesn't necessarily imply greedy cheating or senseless murder or selfish dishonesty... but say I still want to make use of my sleight of hand checks or sneak attacks or bluff checks... Maybe my 'good' conscience is just playing games with me, telling me that doing such things is wrong to begin with... I'd have no problems with it if it came from a neutral perspective though. the DM says no evil characters allowed. all right... so why is our warmage/duskblade allowed to keep an evil sword despite our cleric's advice to the character to destroy it? And last time we played... a new player introduced a female drow who'd also lost her memories, but OOC knowledge (at table roleplay between DM and her, away from other characters) says she's the one responsible for the magic experiments, and rest of the party ending up that way... so essentially she was evil to begin with... okay so maybe she'll renounce her evil ways... but if she doesn't, our characters are practically screwed, since we're currently in the underdark and she was supposed to be our escort, with us posing as her slaves. I'll end my whining now, I've taken far too much space... Final questions: Where would a half celestial be from, in the Forgotten Realms setting? No idea? suggest a random place far away from Icewind Dale... I'm gonna need some time to come up with a proper backstory. Any other thoughts/comments/advice/snickering at the newb to offer?
nightside_samurai 07-16-07, 12:44 AM	I think you've got a great chance to do some fun roleplaying with this idea. Remember being a rogue can be anything from a thief, to a skilled technician who knows how to disable traps and open door, to a smooth face man who knows how to handle diplomatic situations. Keep playing true neutral and attribute your "non-good" ways to not having your memory. If the DM wants you to play your character his way, he shouldn't be playing DnD. That said, have fun and play the character as you want and don't let the DM railroad you into something you don't want. If it gets too bad, shoot him in the face with a hammer-gun and find a new group :)
Rerecros 07-16-07, 01:00 AM	Just to confirm your fears, your DM is being a dick. No evil characters, and your being railroaded into a drow campain :eek: Thats just sadism. Half-celestials aren't always good, ever hear of Aadam the coked-up Aasimar? (D&D PHB PSA part 12 on you tube) And if you do wanna play a good guy, a rogue can still play a holy warrior, your just more like watchers from buffy the vampire slayer. A bookish type that needs a ranged weapon and minimal armor to be effective in combat.
Jenny With The Lantern 07-16-07, 01:17 AM	No snickering here, your complaint is more than valid. Did the DM give any information on the campaign ahead of time? I'm guessing no, since you didn't know you had to make up a background. Did he look at the things you made up? Of course there may be rogue celestials but I think there are far better fits imaginable. You may want to talk to the DM about this if you didn't already and tell them you're not comfortable playing a celestial. What races (beside drow) did the other players 'get'? Did their concepts fit better?
ChaosMiles 07-16-07, 12:03 PM	I think you've got a great chance to do some fun roleplaying with this idea. ... If it gets too bad, shoot him in the face with a hammer-gun and find a new group :) Heh, you know, you do have a point there... it was just a comment on the DM's side that kinda bugged me. Something to the effect of, If I didn't do good, my celestial part would die and take me with it. I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't mind at all the bonuses that the race offers me, and retractable wings are useful, and can be hidden at my character's will, but even if I can come to a compromise with the DM, I don't want them falling off... o_0 but such may turn out to be the case. and as far as finding a new group... I probably could if I set my mind to it, but I think I'm just starting to fit in... I'll give it a few more sessions to see if we can work it out. Thanks for the advice! Just to confirm your fears, your DM is being a dick... ...Half-celestials aren't always good, ever hear of Aadam the coked-up Aasimar? (D&D PHB PSA part 12 on you tube) ...a rogue can still play a holy warrior, your just more like watchers from buffy the vampire slayer. A bookish type that needs a ranged weapon and minimal armor to be effective in combat. I am the type that is always willing to give others a second chance. As such, I'm going along with the DM's plans and seeing where it goes for now. He doesn't seem to be the type to just let the characters die without an escape route, but if it turns out he is, then finding another group may become a priority. I've never heard of this Aadam... (research... LOL) okay, now I know if I play the character like -that- then yes the DM will make me explode with the lightning. and as far as being a holy warrior... eh, I've never really been the bookish type, and my long range combat... well let's just say my d20 isn't nice to me when it comes to using a longbow... or a light crossbow... or any long-range combat. I had to melee a dragon to be of any help at all to my group, for crying out loud. Well thanks for the advice anyways :D ...What races (beside drow) did the other players 'get'? Did their concepts fit better? Well like I mentioned there's the warmage/duskblade and he's a half-shadow. The new drow lady is apparently a vampire... but the characters don't know that yet, We also have a ranger werewolf and another female drow druid who is half silver dragon(which if I had my choice I would've jumped to have a half silver dragon... but the player is the DM's girlfriend, go figure). Oh, and not to forget the leader of the party, he's a paragon... I forget which race he is but flames from torches and such react to his feelings... and he's a cleric. So yeah pretty nonstandard races... and to answer your question, everyone else does seem to fit their role pretty well. I just feel like the odd man out I guess. not uncommon for the new guy in the group, right? but like I said, I think I'm beginning to fit in.
DrMorganes 07-16-07, 12:03 PM	Wow. I'm going to say your DM is either a rank newbie who has no idea how to run a game without railroading his players OR he's a raging control freak who has no idea how to run a game without railroading his players. The first is fixable with time and proper mentorship. The second is a lost cause. I recommend giving the game a few sessions to see how things shape up, then take your DM out for coffee to discuss the game. Bring a list of your concerns. Be sure to use "I feel" statements and ask for clarification because you "don't quite understand". It sounds wishy-washy, but believe me you'll get a lot further if the DM doesn't feel you're attacking his ability or his decisions. If he won't budge, tell him you're concerned that you're not a good fit for the group. Give it a fixed number of sessions (3 is a good number) to see if you mesh any better, and then leave. If he gets angry at any time, pay for his coffee, thank him for his time, and walk. You do NOT want to be gaming with anyone who gets angry over a discussion of the game. Assuming you stay: There are more to rogues than thievery. Sure, the class has its roots in a class specifically name "thief", but those days have been gone for decades. Rogues in D&D run the gamut from the stereotypical footpad/backdoor man to the military specialist responsible for recon and extraction. In short, a half-celestial rogue is not only possible, but believable and entirely playable. While I'm wary of your DM's statement that you have a "relentless urge to do good", "good" has many forms and interpretations even in D&D's system of absolute morality. Breaking laws is not evil, but merely chaotic. The Half-Celestial template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm)'s alignment requirement is "nonevil", so sticking with your Neutral alignment isn't an issue at all! If you haven't already done so, be sure you get familiar with the template's abilities. (I've hyperlinked to the SRD above.) If you're adventuring in the Underdark, DO NOT underestimate the usefulness of Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm). You get 3 per day. +2 bonus to AC, ALL saves vs spells cast by evil creatures (e.g., Drow) AND completely wards you from mind-controlling spells to the point of suppressing existing mental control! The 60' Darkvision is a massive boon as well, allowing you perfect ability to function in total non-magical darkness. Eveything else in the Underdark has it as well, so it's not a huge advantage for you - but you won't be at a disadvantage due to reliance on light (which is the Underdark's equivalent of a flashing neon sign that says, "Surface-dwellers here waiting to be attacked!"). Incidentally, using the template as published doesn't grant your character wings... Another indication your DM may not necessarily know what he's doing.
Kamin_Majere 07-16-07, 12:31 PM	It could be fun... or it could not be. You can play your character how ever you want. All the celestial template did was give you the "good" subtype. Theres nothing about what a rogue does that is inheriantly evil. Sneak attack and stealing arent evil at all, stealing is more chaotic than anything else. Sneak attack isnt back stab. Sneak attack is your character going for weak spots on an opponets body to maximize damage instead of relying on pure combat skill to deal with opponets. As to your DM wanting a character history, i can understand that. At some point i'm assuming the part will get their memories back and the back ground info will be needed then. Now the DM was a git for not telling you this to begin with, but its a pretty comman thing for new DM's to do trying to make an intresting story. Its not necessaryily a good thing, but i've seen it done before. I dont understand the point about Erase your character? Do you mean to tell me that because your of a peticular race (or half template in this case) your DM is making you be good? Even Red Dragons can be good, its rare and is about as comman as a Fallen Solar, but it can happen. Worse case senerio i would say that 1 parent was a NG celestial and the other was a neutral human thenthe neurtal aspects made you more neutral, you might still have good tendency, but thats not going to stop you from doing what your overall alignment would do (i know this doesnt actually work, but it might be an explination your DM would accept) as to the no evil and allowing evil things... cant help you there, it sounds like your DM needs to try harder to make things cohesive in his story. As to where you can be from? Pick a spot. THe forgotten realms is a pretty open area as far as that goes. You could come from Calisham or silverymoon, or the spine of the world, or the dalelands, or anaroch or or or... Its pretty open with a half breed race because the gods and what not are so active in Faerun that anything can happen
Apocolypse_77 07-16-07, 12:52 PM	I would recomend a chaotic good alignment, because with it you can very easily bluff, steal, sneak attack and even kill/murder so long as you have reason to do any of the above. Some examples... Stealing, a chaotic good character may justify stealing money and items from evil, neutral and sometimes even good characters if they feel that by having those items they will be able to do more good in the world, then if the owner keeps them. Bluffing has a similar idealism, you can lie your butt off so long as your itentions are for the greater good. Killing/murder is a slightly trickier subject. While killing evil creatures is ok, neutral kill will have to be very well justified. Killling inocents or good alliegned character i would say would not be in your alignment no matter what justifications you have. You can easily play a chaotic good character for which "the ends justify the means" While many of your tactics may be underhanded if you are doing them for the greater good and not for personal gain then you are still of good alignment. hope this helps.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-16-07, 01:12 PM	A few things I have to ask. Are your party all the same level? I'm hearing werewolf, vampire, drow, half-dragon, half celestial. I hope you're all the right ECL, or you're getting ripped. Oh, and I would suggest playing your character in the way that you would have, regardless of his heritage. You don't like the character's heritage? Neither does he! Have him act to his alignment, and blame his occasional good acts on his parentage. If anyone argues in game as to your not-acting-good, show them A) your alignment on the sheet, and B) reply IC with how you didn't ask your dad to get it on with someone out of his species, and then you can recite the following. 'Judge me not, by race or creed, but judge me through sight, and thought, and deed. I am not a generic Half-celestial, I am not a paladin, nor a cleric. I am a rogue, I do not follow good, no do I worship evil. I am *insert name* of *Insert place* and THAT IS FINAL!' :D Play how you want to play. It's one of the few decisions you can make, as a player.(just don't be a dick!)
ChaosMiles 07-16-07, 02:18 PM	Wow. I'm going to say your DM is either a rank newbie who has no idea how to run a game... I recommend giving the game a few sessions to see how things shape up, then take your DM out for coffee to discuss the game... There are more to rogues than thievery... The Half-Celestial template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm)'s alignment requirement is "nonevil", so sticking with your Neutral alignment isn't an issue at all! If you haven't already done so, be sure you get familiar with the template's abilities... Incidentally, using the template as published doesn't grant your character wings... Another indication your DM may not necessarily know what he's doing. My DM has been playing D&D for 5 years, so he says. I'm willing to believe he's been at it for a while, but you may be right as far as railroading goes. I am willing to see where it leads for now, so I'm gonna stick around for a few more sessions, 3 or so should give me an idea of how well me and him will work together. The template you referenced isn't the one he was using. He made up his own template for me to use, and I'm following it. It doesn't give me as many abilities or even darkvision, but he's the one that made it so I'll ask him if he's willing to let me use the template you referenced. I am beginning to get used to the idea of roguery for the greater good, it's just that normally if I'm playing a good character they always lean to the side of lawful good. Being a rogue, I just have to get used to the nonlawful part. Or maybe I can negotiate something with the DM that doesn't end up with the wings he has given me, clipped. Thanks for your input, I'll definitely try the idea of taking him out and talking about it. It could be fun... or it could not be. You can play your character how ever you want. ... Theres nothing about what a rogue does that is inheriantly evil. Sneak attack and stealing arent evil at all... As to your DM wanting a character history, i can understand that. ...Now the DM was a git for not telling you this to begin with, but its a pretty [common] thing for new DM's to do... I dont understand the point about Erase your character? ...your DM is making you be good? Even Red Dragons can be good... Worse case senerio i would say that 1 parent was a NG celestial and the other was a neutral human... As to where you can be from? Pick a spot. ...Calisham or silverymoon, or the spine of the world, or the dalelands, or anaroch... Its pretty open with a half breed race because the gods and what not are so active in Faerun that anything can happen Thanks for your input, I'm more and more getting used to the greater good idea. Only thing is that it's -because- of the magical experiments that my character is a half-celestial, not genetics. I may be able to use that as a basis for not being good all the time. Additional thanks for clearing up where my char should come from, or maybe I should say -not- clearing it up, that I could be from anywhere... now I just have to make a choice. I would recomend a chaotic good alignment... ...You can easily play a chaotic good character for which "the ends justify the means" While many of your tactics may be underhanded if you are doing them for the greater good and not for personal gain then you are still of good alignment. hope this helps. it has, thanks for your input! A few things I have to ask. Are your party all the same level? ... ...I hope you're all the right ECL, or you're getting ripped. Oh, and I would suggest playing your character in the way that you would have, regardless of his heritage... 'Judge me not, by race or creed, but judge me through sight, and thought, and deed... :D Play how you want to play. It's one of the few decisions you can make, as a player.(just don't be a dick!) Our party is all the same level. And to play how I want to is all I want to do, so I will find a way, thanks!