Conflict with Dimension Dooring [Archive] - Wizards Community

Conflict with Dimension Dooring [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yagimoth
02-14-07, 02:13 AM Hey guys,
during a recent dungeon crawl my party fought, and killed an Ogre. At the time of death, the Ogre was Raging and carrying a Cleaver (Great Axe classification) which he subsuquently slammed into the granite floor, lodging it there. Now here is where the DM and I started arguing. After failing strength checks, I used dimensional door to try and teleport the Cleaver free. Now, in the description of Dimensional Door, it reads that I can take any objects with me, as long as it is less than, or equal to my carry max, (I figured it was a willing object...?). Anyway, Can anyone shine any light on the situation, I mean, is that how the spell is supposed to work? The DM was arguing that I had to be in possesion, or "own" the item I wished to teleport.

Thanks Guys,
Yagimoth
TheChilliGod
02-14-07, 02:38 AM Although your DM as free to rule as he wishes in any scenario, the Target bit of Dimension door specifically says "You and touched objects..." which would lend credit to your side of the argument. All you had to do was touch the object and so long as it's light enough, you teleport it.

Helpative?
Yagimoth
02-14-07, 03:10 AM how would that work for objects (such as swords) being held by enemies. Could I grapple the hilt then teleport, and what about armour they're wearing?

Yag,
and yes, it was very helpful.
Yokomohoyo
02-14-07, 03:22 AM Sorry but if its in an enemies hand then its not a willing object. It would be entitled to a will save using the opponents will save.
Yagimoth
02-14-07, 03:29 AM Thanks,
That clears things up, and makes it seem a lot less overpowerd.

Thanks again!
Yag
Yokomohoyo
02-14-07, 04:04 AM Your welcome. Now remember nothing states that you cant disarm the opponent and then teleport (or Dimensional Door in this case) away with the weapon. Especialy if you trip him. Since at the moment the weapon is out of his hands its now a willing object ^_^.
slashrat
02-14-07, 04:18 AM One aspect that is not covered in DD's description is whether or not any touched object has to be movable in addition to being light enough. The DM is quite free to rule this as a requirement, and personally I'd agree with that ruling.
Yokomohoyo
02-14-07, 04:26 AM Tecnicly it is a movable object. Just because its stuck and your too weak to get it unstuck dosent mean it cant be moved. And a great axe (the cleaver in question) should be about 12lbs if made of iron/steel... If its made of other metals it could be lighter so it shouldnt take the mage into his overload limit... if it dose all he has to do is remove his backpack and he should be able to take it with him.
Drag0nUL
02-14-07, 09:06 AM I don't see it in the spell's description anything that would prevent you from doing that. And I don't think the object has to be movable. After all you are not physically moving it, but teleporting it away.
However it is quite an abusable spell under the right circumstances. A funny story about what this little spell can do: We were playing a mostly CN-aligned party(only non CN char was the driud); good guys actually, just that we took what we wanted without answering to nobody. One adventure we were clearing a dungeon under the city sewers. After we killed all the monsters, the party's fighter/bard/dashing swordsman(custom OOTS-based PrC) says 'Hey, u know what? Let's sell it!'. The job fell to the party's kobold warkock(he had an invocatin similar to dimension door, at will). He would go in, touch a statue/carpet/furniture/stone and teleport out. It was the apex of this all-profit seeking party.
Narthon
02-14-07, 09:06 AM The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it.
_zx75
02-14-07, 11:29 AM The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it.

I agree with Narthon. Technically an axe's head is simply a piece of metal that is immovable for your character from the shaft. That doesn't mean that Dimension Door will only teleport you and the axe shaft and leave the head behind because you're not touching it. The only thing that indicates that the axe is a separate object from the floor is your perception that it is in fact a separate object.

I generally rule if an object is attached to another by any means other than gravity then both objects are considered to be a single object for the purposes of a teleport spell.* It would have to be freed, or unattached first before the spell would allow it to be taken.

*There are slight exceptions to this case, ie. if something is held by Mage Hand perhaps, so I suggest using it as a "rule of thumb".
zzakk2to2
02-14-07, 04:49 PM An abuse I can think of is where a castle made of stone blocks you can carry. have some scrolls of dimension door and just touch a block or 2 and port away taking them with you. using this you could also break into houses.
Pizzini3000
02-14-07, 04:59 PM Personally, If I were DMing, I'd allow it. That's just plain creative. (to use teleportation to free stuck object that is unattended)

As far as the boundries of to what point is matter considered to be one object.... that's subject to great debat, and I would think twice before argueing that once a DM has made a ruling. That's one of the main jobs as a DM; to answer those questions that arise while playing the game.

I like to support creative uses of abilities, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the axe isn't the same item as the granite floor. Reguarding the teleportation of stone blocks of a castle wall; It depends on how the thing was constructed. If they are glued together with mortar, than I'd say it wouldn't work.

IMO, I ask them DM questions before I do stuff like that. If I wanted to teleport a piece of the stone wall way from the wall itself, I'd ask the DM what the boundries of my spell are, because my character would certainly be familiar with the full capabilities of his own spell.
zzakk2to2
02-14-07, 05:21 PM this could be devastating if you took Knowledge Architecture and engineering because then you could find the key stone and take down whole buildings.

Dm: you see a road with a giant arch over it
Pc: I roll knowledge architecture to find its key stone :dice: 20
Dm: okay you notice the key stone at the top of the arch it appears to wiegh about 50 pounds
Pc: I give about 50 pounds of gear to the fighter to hold then port up to on top of that
Dm: okay you succed
Pc: I touch the keystone and port down to my original spot
Dm: okay there is a hole in the arch
Pc: and now because it was the keystone the arch will fall:D
Dm::OMG! damn your right the giant arch crumbles and falls kill many people underneath and causing general destruction
Thubby
02-14-07, 09:59 PM i can see where your dm is coming from. if you cant move it normaly, dimension door cant move it. or thats his thinking. and its reasonable (imo), this is pretty much the ONLY way this problem would come up.
i personaly agree with you, but the dm ruled in a not rediculous way, so id go with it. (though i might argue for my spell back, as you know your spells limits, and wouldnt use it knowing it cant dislodge stuff)
Dragonsblood
02-14-07, 10:12 PM I agree with your DM. The spirit of the spell rules is to let you carry your clothes and gear. You're stretching the power of the spell.

I also think your DM had a storyline reason for not allowing you to take that ax. You shouldn't of argued with him about a piece of loot. It's not like your character was put at any risk by him saying no to this.
Yagimoth
02-15-07, 02:28 AM Thanks for the replies guys, I sent the question to "Ask Wizards" so I can get an official ruling on it. That knowledge architecture stuff may be really helpful. Check out the other thread, were continuing the dicussion there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=791544). they came up with alot of good points.

Yag
modrukinstealer
02-15-07, 10:14 AM "At the time of death, the Ogre was Raging and carrying a Cleaver (Great Axe classification) which he subsuquently slammed into the granite floor, lodging it there."

So the ogre, dieing, uses his last act as a living being to lodge his cleaver into the floor? Sounds like the issue is really that your Dm doesn't want you to have the cleaver for some unknown reason rather than whether or not DD will allow you to take it with you.

Did you try taking 20? Also are you the only person in the group? You can have the entire group take it out using assists and the like as well.
Use a grease spell on it. Or maybe just some lantern oil. There are lots of creative ways to get it out of the floor. Is there some reason to believe it's a magic item or perhaps even MW? If it's not at least MW and so worth decent GP then why argue over a relatively inexpensive item?
perdera
02-19-07, 10:39 AM Very creative idea, but unfortunately leads to too many abuses in my opinion. It also opens the door for similar abuses of the Teleport spell while at the same time somewhat negating the point of the Teleport Object spell--which is 7th level, but a little different since it just Teleports the Object and not you as well.

For all these spells (well, except Teleport Object) I would require the objects to be 'in your possession', and just resting your hand on something wouldn't count for that.
ShadowDragon8685
02-19-07, 10:49 AM If it's mortared, bolted, welded, or otherwise fastened to something else, they count as one object for teleportation purposes.

If it's wedged in, hammered in, or stuck, it is not. And don't start about "what if it's nailed together?"

If it's meant to be one object (IE: a house), you can't teleport a plank out unless you physically remove the constraints holding the board to the house. If it's just stuck (IE: A door-wedge under a door, or an axe in the ground), it's not, and can be teleported out.
Vanulf
02-19-07, 10:57 AM On a quick side note, if I may, concerining the disorientation effect of DimDoor.
When a caster uses the spell to T-port himself and others, who is the "you" in the spell description? Is the caster the only one to suffer the disorientation or is everyone who went with him also affected?
Norad3
02-19-07, 11:17 AM I would say he should be able to teleport with it. It seems that the people who say he shouldn't be able to because he isn't strong enough to free it. The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it. So if he was strong enough to rip it out then he could teleport with it? The other argument seems to be that the axe is imbedded in the floor so it is part of the floor and you can't teleport the axe without teleporting the floor. I generally rule if an object is attached to another by any means other than gravity then both objects are considered to be a single object for the purposes of a teleport spell.Now i was thinking if an object became the same as whatever it was embedded in, i could steal my enemies weapon by waiting for them to strike me and teleporting with thier weapon in me. Because it is embeeded in me it is part of me. What if i got stuck, could i no longer teleport or be teleported? Oh no my foot is stuck in a hole, it's okay i can dimension door out, oh wait i forgot i have to take the whole floor with me cause my foot's stuck. Honestly i think you create more problems with that ruling than your solving. Yay now the web spell can stop all teleport effects.
Malraux
02-19-07, 11:31 AM As a DM, I'd allow creative use of the spell to do that. Clearly the party wants and will get the axe, even if they have to chip the floor away, so its just a matter of time. So the spell just speeds up and stealthifies the approach.

I'd also make it clear that the spell only works for non-abusive uses, so no collapsing the castle by removing the right stone.
kardock
02-19-07, 11:33 AM people please, a dimension door is a DOOR, meaning you have to PASS THROUGH it to be teleported.

since the cleaver is stuck, you can't make it pass the doorway with you!
Norad3
02-19-07, 11:41 AM people please, a dimension door is a DOOR, meaning you have to PASS THROUGH it to be teleported.

since the cleaver is stuck, you can't make it pass the doorway with you!

PHB says nothing about a doorway or walking through anything. It says you instantly transfer yourself to another location.
kardock
02-19-07, 12:46 PM are you saying i'm the one who is wrong? uh?

well...

i am!

lol

i just read the spell description and there is no door involved. and i don't even know where i get that door idea ;-)

must be some other spell or CRPG game.

sorry!
Narthon
02-19-07, 02:17 PM I think in past editions there was a doorway you had to walk through.
Kukamunga
02-19-07, 02:39 PM I think you got the door idea from the name :tiphat:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yagimoth 02-14-07, 02:13 AM	Hey guys, during a recent dungeon crawl my party fought, and killed an Ogre. At the time of death, the Ogre was Raging and carrying a Cleaver (Great Axe classification) which he subsuquently slammed into the granite floor, lodging it there. Now here is where the DM and I started arguing. After failing strength checks, I used dimensional door to try and teleport the Cleaver free. Now, in the description of Dimensional Door, it reads that I can take any objects with me, as long as it is less than, or equal to my carry max, (I figured it was a willing object...?). Anyway, Can anyone shine any light on the situation, I mean, is that how the spell is supposed to work? The DM was arguing that I had to be in possesion, or "own" the item I wished to teleport. Thanks Guys, Yagimoth
TheChilliGod 02-14-07, 02:38 AM	Although your DM as free to rule as he wishes in any scenario, the Target bit of Dimension door specifically says "You and touched objects..." which would lend credit to your side of the argument. All you had to do was touch the object and so long as it's light enough, you teleport it. Helpative?
Yagimoth 02-14-07, 03:10 AM	how would that work for objects (such as swords) being held by enemies. Could I grapple the hilt then teleport, and what about armour they're wearing? Yag, and yes, it was very helpful.
Yokomohoyo 02-14-07, 03:22 AM	Sorry but if its in an enemies hand then its not a willing object. It would be entitled to a will save using the opponents will save.
Yagimoth 02-14-07, 03:29 AM	Thanks, That clears things up, and makes it seem a lot less overpowerd. Thanks again! Yag
Yokomohoyo 02-14-07, 04:04 AM	Your welcome. Now remember nothing states that you cant disarm the opponent and then teleport (or Dimensional Door in this case) away with the weapon. Especialy if you trip him. Since at the moment the weapon is out of his hands its now a willing object ^_^.
slashrat 02-14-07, 04:18 AM	One aspect that is not covered in DD's description is whether or not any touched object has to be movable in addition to being light enough. The DM is quite free to rule this as a requirement, and personally I'd agree with that ruling.
Yokomohoyo 02-14-07, 04:26 AM	Tecnicly it is a movable object. Just because its stuck and your too weak to get it unstuck dosent mean it cant be moved. And a great axe (the cleaver in question) should be about 12lbs if made of iron/steel... If its made of other metals it could be lighter so it shouldnt take the mage into his overload limit... if it dose all he has to do is remove his backpack and he should be able to take it with him.
Drag0nUL 02-14-07, 09:06 AM	I don't see it in the spell's description anything that would prevent you from doing that. And I don't think the object has to be movable. After all you are not physically moving it, but teleporting it away. However it is quite an abusable spell under the right circumstances. A funny story about what this little spell can do: We were playing a mostly CN-aligned party(only non CN char was the driud); good guys actually, just that we took what we wanted without answering to nobody. One adventure we were clearing a dungeon under the city sewers. After we killed all the monsters, the party's fighter/bard/dashing swordsman(custom OOTS-based PrC) says 'Hey, u know what? Let's sell it!'. The job fell to the party's kobold warkock(he had an invocatin similar to dimension door, at will). He would go in, touch a statue/carpet/furniture/stone and teleport out. It was the apex of this all-profit seeking party.
Narthon 02-14-07, 09:06 AM	The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it.
_zx75 02-14-07, 11:29 AM	The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it. I agree with Narthon. Technically an axe's head is simply a piece of metal that is immovable for your character from the shaft. That doesn't mean that Dimension Door will only teleport you and the axe shaft and leave the head behind because you're not touching it. The only thing that indicates that the axe is a separate object from the floor is your perception that it is in fact a separate object. I generally rule if an object is attached to another by any means other than gravity then both objects are considered to be a single object for the purposes of a teleport spell.* It would have to be freed, or unattached first before the spell would allow it to be taken. *There are slight exceptions to this case, ie. if something is held by Mage Hand perhaps, so I suggest using it as a "rule of thumb".
zzakk2to2 02-14-07, 04:49 PM	An abuse I can think of is where a castle made of stone blocks you can carry. have some scrolls of dimension door and just touch a block or 2 and port away taking them with you. using this you could also break into houses.
Pizzini3000 02-14-07, 04:59 PM	Personally, If I were DMing, I'd allow it. That's just plain creative. (to use teleportation to free stuck object that is unattended) As far as the boundries of to what point is matter considered to be one object.... that's subject to great debat, and I would think twice before argueing that once a DM has made a ruling. That's one of the main jobs as a DM; to answer those questions that arise while playing the game. I like to support creative uses of abilities, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that the axe isn't the same item as the granite floor. Reguarding the teleportation of stone blocks of a castle wall; It depends on how the thing was constructed. If they are glued together with mortar, than I'd say it wouldn't work. IMO, I ask them DM questions before I do stuff like that. If I wanted to teleport a piece of the stone wall way from the wall itself, I'd ask the DM what the boundries of my spell are, because my character would certainly be familiar with the full capabilities of his own spell.
zzakk2to2 02-14-07, 05:21 PM	this could be devastating if you took Knowledge Architecture and engineering because then you could find the key stone and take down whole buildings. Dm: you see a road with a giant arch over it Pc: I roll knowledge architecture to find its key stone :dice: 20 Dm: okay you notice the key stone at the top of the arch it appears to wiegh about 50 pounds Pc: I give about 50 pounds of gear to the fighter to hold then port up to on top of that Dm: okay you succed Pc: I touch the keystone and port down to my original spot Dm: okay there is a hole in the arch Pc: and now because it was the keystone the arch will fall:D Dm::OMG! damn your right the giant arch crumbles and falls kill many people underneath and causing general destruction
Thubby 02-14-07, 09:59 PM	i can see where your dm is coming from. if you cant move it normaly, dimension door cant move it. or thats his thinking. and its reasonable (imo), this is pretty much the ONLY way this problem would come up. i personaly agree with you, but the dm ruled in a not rediculous way, so id go with it. (though i might argue for my spell back, as you know your spells limits, and wouldnt use it knowing it cant dislodge stuff)
Dragonsblood 02-14-07, 10:12 PM	I agree with your DM. The spirit of the spell rules is to let you carry your clothes and gear. You're stretching the power of the spell. I also think your DM had a storyline reason for not allowing you to take that ax. You shouldn't of argued with him about a piece of loot. It's not like your character was put at any risk by him saying no to this.
Yagimoth 02-15-07, 02:28 AM	Thanks for the replies guys, I sent the question to "Ask Wizards" so I can get an official ruling on it. That knowledge architecture stuff may be really helpful. Check out the other thread, were continuing the dicussion there (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=791544). they came up with alot of good points. Yag
modrukinstealer 02-15-07, 10:14 AM	"At the time of death, the Ogre was Raging and carrying a Cleaver (Great Axe classification) which he subsuquently slammed into the granite floor, lodging it there." So the ogre, dieing, uses his last act as a living being to lodge his cleaver into the floor? Sounds like the issue is really that your Dm doesn't want you to have the cleaver for some unknown reason rather than whether or not DD will allow you to take it with you. Did you try taking 20? Also are you the only person in the group? You can have the entire group take it out using assists and the like as well. Use a grease spell on it. Or maybe just some lantern oil. There are lots of creative ways to get it out of the floor. Is there some reason to believe it's a magic item or perhaps even MW? If it's not at least MW and so worth decent GP then why argue over a relatively inexpensive item?
perdera 02-19-07, 10:39 AM	Very creative idea, but unfortunately leads to too many abuses in my opinion. It also opens the door for similar abuses of the Teleport spell while at the same time somewhat negating the point of the Teleport Object spell--which is 7th level, but a little different since it just Teleports the Object and not you as well. For all these spells (well, except Teleport Object) I would require the objects to be 'in your possession', and just resting your hand on something wouldn't count for that.
ShadowDragon8685 02-19-07, 10:49 AM	If it's mortared, bolted, welded, or otherwise fastened to something else, they count as one object for teleportation purposes. If it's wedged in, hammered in, or stuck, it is not. And don't start about "what if it's nailed together?" If it's meant to be one object (IE: a house), you can't teleport a plank out unless you physically remove the constraints holding the board to the house. If it's just stuck (IE: A door-wedge under a door, or an axe in the ground), it's not, and can be teleported out.
Vanulf 02-19-07, 10:57 AM	On a quick side note, if I may, concerining the disorientation effect of DimDoor. When a caster uses the spell to T-port himself and others, who is the "you" in the spell description? Is the caster the only one to suffer the disorientation or is everyone who went with him also affected?
Norad3 02-19-07, 11:17 AM	I would say he should be able to teleport with it. It seems that the people who say he shouldn't be able to because he isn't strong enough to free it. The cleaver is wedged into the earth and is in fact immovable for this character. He would have to move everything it was attached to to move it. It might as well be bolted down. I feel the DM is in the right not allowing DD to move it. So if he was strong enough to rip it out then he could teleport with it? The other argument seems to be that the axe is imbedded in the floor so it is part of the floor and you can't teleport the axe without teleporting the floor. I generally rule if an object is attached to another by any means other than gravity then both objects are considered to be a single object for the purposes of a teleport spell.Now i was thinking if an object became the same as whatever it was embedded in, i could steal my enemies weapon by waiting for them to strike me and teleporting with thier weapon in me. Because it is embeeded in me it is part of me. What if i got stuck, could i no longer teleport or be teleported? Oh no my foot is stuck in a hole, it's okay i can dimension door out, oh wait i forgot i have to take the whole floor with me cause my foot's stuck. Honestly i think you create more problems with that ruling than your solving. Yay now the web spell can stop all teleport effects.
Malraux 02-19-07, 11:31 AM	As a DM, I'd allow creative use of the spell to do that. Clearly the party wants and will get the axe, even if they have to chip the floor away, so its just a matter of time. So the spell just speeds up and stealthifies the approach. I'd also make it clear that the spell only works for non-abusive uses, so no collapsing the castle by removing the right stone.
kardock 02-19-07, 11:33 AM	people please, a dimension door is a DOOR, meaning you have to PASS THROUGH it to be teleported. since the cleaver is stuck, you can't make it pass the doorway with you!
Norad3 02-19-07, 11:41 AM	people please, a dimension door is a DOOR, meaning you have to PASS THROUGH it to be teleported. since the cleaver is stuck, you can't make it pass the doorway with you! PHB says nothing about a doorway or walking through anything. It says you instantly transfer yourself to another location.
kardock 02-19-07, 12:46 PM	are you saying i'm the one who is wrong? uh? well... i am! lol i just read the spell description and there is no door involved. and i don't even know where i get that door idea ;-) must be some other spell or CRPG game. sorry!
Narthon 02-19-07, 02:17 PM	I think in past editions there was a doorway you had to walk through.
Kukamunga 02-19-07, 02:39 PM	I think you got the door idea from the name :tiphat: