Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bizzle7 02-19-07, 04:07 PM	A couple of my friends and I sat down and were ready to start a new session of DnD. As usual we went through the book and began picking out what chars we were going to play. Then it came to the stat rolling. I used the same dice as my other friends, the luck just fell my way. 18/17/16/15/14/14 (my stats) I was then infromed by my DM that I would have to do the point buy system because my rolls """were too good""". I then began to argue with him saying lots of things that are not apropreiate to post but I imagine you got the idea. Left the place we were sessioning and went home. In the next session same thing happened with my stats. and I was told the same thing. Is the DM aloud to do this??? I think it is carp that someone should be pentalised because they are lucky. Somone please explain to me if what the DM did is correct or if he is wrong for changeing my stats or asking me to do a point buy system. Also the second time I re-rolled and got better and then the point buy system was mentioned again.
NerdNumber1 02-19-07, 04:11 PM	The DM can do whatever he wants, especially if he feels that it will improve the gaming experience for his players. If you have a problem with his management style, then you can talk to him about it or find a new DM.
Orchomenos 02-19-07, 04:25 PM	You must admit your stats will be way higher than the average of the other PCs, and it might sound unfair for the rest of the players. If you're not so bad at characters building, you might easily outshine the other players, and give the DM an headache to find something that could challenge you without killing all the other PCs. So I say go for the point-buy, and if you're as lucky with all your attack rolls than your stats-generating rolls, then it'll make few difference... ;) PS: Left the place we were sessioning and went home. I wasn't there, but it begins sounding a bit immature... :shifty:
Bizzle7 02-19-07, 04:38 PM	You must admit your stats will be way higher than the average of the other PCs, and it might sound unfair for the rest of the players. If you're not so bad at characters building, you might easily outshine the other players, and give the DM an headache to find something that could challenge you without killing all the other PCs. So I say go for the point-buy, and if you're as lucky with all your attack rolls than your stats-generating rolls, then it'll make few difference... ;) PS: Left the place we were sessioning and went home. I wasn't there, but it begins sounding a bit immature... :shifty: I dunno mabey it is just me but I think it is complete ********. If I have a plus 8 on attack rolls and another char has a plus 6 I have a +2 better chance then hitting then he does. I am not thinking of making pun-pun nor do I plan on useing the rolls I was dealt and taking/useing them to throw off the DM plans or kill off the other players. I just want to use what I was dealt period. I do not see how the rolls that I got will in any way make it harder for the DM to challenge me. Becasue regardless if you have a 18/16 in STR you are still deadley in combat on a little key words alittle more then the other but not by much and in a small campaign I would think that you would need all the muscle/brains you can get. Please someone why it is ok for him to change my rolls when I rolled three different times and still got to high for him. Again I rolled infront of him and with even the same dice that others used?? Guess I am just mad at the situation PS I left because the only way he was going to let me play was if I did point buy and he and I got into a pretty heated arguement about it and so instead of letting it continue I just left.
hunterc311 02-19-07, 04:57 PM	Please someone why it is ok for him to change my rolls when I rolled three different times and still got to high for him. Again I rolled infront of him and with even the same dice that others used?? Guess I am just mad at the situation It is ok because he is the boss. It may not seem fair to you, but the DM has a responsibility to every player in the group to present a fair and balanced gaming experience. If he thinks your character will be a burden on his attempts to present this experience, he is entitled to adjust things in any way he sees fit. It's not an unfair expectation at all, especially considering your rolls are very high. And are you saying you rolled 3 different sets of rolls, and all of them somehow managed to defy the odds and roll that well each time? Forgive me if I'm skeptical. What you're missing is that your ability scores do not just determine bonuses. They determine things like feat requirements, skill checks, bonus spells and so forth. Plus, you've got high numbers in ALL categories. Everyone else probably only has high numbers in two or three categories, so they have weak areas as well. You have no weak area. You have good AC, good attack bonus, good damage bonus, good saving throws, good spell save DCs, good skill checks, a good number of bonus spells, a good number of skill points, you get the picture. The stats are not just numbers. They represent character balance. Your character is unbalanced in this area, so the DM is adjusting it to be balanced with the rest of the group. PS I left because the only way he was going to let me play was if I did point buy and he and I got into a pretty heated arguement about it and so instead of letting it continue I just left. And you... went back the next day? Why? If the argument was so heated, and this was only character creation, why would they want you back anyways? I realize you're friends, but something feels like it's being exaggerated here.
Ryusage 02-19-07, 04:57 PM	and this is why point-buy should the be the standard ability score selection method...
Templetroll 02-19-07, 04:57 PM	Was everyone using the point buy system? The DM chooses the character generation system to be used for his game, not the players. If everyone is using point buy then that is fair; if he only told you to use point buy because you rolled well then ask him to just write down the best stats you can have in his game based from what you did roll. If he thinks you cheated to get those rolls then he needs to say that.
Bizzle7 02-19-07, 05:06 PM	Was everyone using the point buy system? The DM chooses the character generation system to be used for his game, not the players. If everyone is using point buy then that is fair; if he only told you to use point buy because you rolled well then ask him to just write down the best stats you can have in his game based from what you did roll. If he thinks you cheated to get those rolls then he needs to say that. No I was the only one who was asked to do the point buy system. I rolled the dice infront of him and the other players as we normally do. I after the third rolling he told me do built my char useing the point buy system. Cant remeber some of the other players rolls but do remember my friend averaged between 10-16 with his rolls and two were 16. Useing the point buy system I cant even get that. I like rolling stats I think it is fun that way to leave your chas fate in the dice and can understadnd why someppl say that you should always do the pointbuy system but only if the entire party is doing. As for those who are saying to them selvs "he cheated or this never happened" I am telling you it did happen with no cheating or weighted dice. But thats another arguemnt for another day please advise if you think I cheated as if it didnt happen and that I started this post of a fictional idea. I didnt come back the next day rather it was next week. We session once a week on fridays. If I said next day then I apologize for the typo. We is not the DM to change players stats otherwise we feels we would have to change everyone stats. I just dont understand how he can say that and have only on player do point buy.
Mufflon 02-19-07, 05:07 PM	I dunno mabey it is just me but I think it is complete ********. If I have a plus 8 on attack rolls and another char has a plus 6 I have a +2 better chance then hitting then he does. I am not thinking of making pun-pun nor do I plan on useing the rolls I was dealt and taking/useing them to throw off the DM plans or kill off the other players. I just want to use what I was dealt period. I do not see how the rolls that I got will in any way make it harder for the DM to challenge me. Becasue regardless if you have a 18/16 in STR you are still deadley in combat on a little key words alittle more then the other but not by much and in a small campaign I would think that you would need all the muscle/brains you can get. If it isn't such a big deal why do you refuse to use the point-buy system? Please someone why it is ok for him to change my rolls when I rolled three different times and still got to high for him. Again I rolled infront of him and with even the same dice that others used?? Guess I am just mad at the situation The short answer: Because he is the DM. The long answer: Because he is the DM. It is therefore his part to provide a fun and challenging campaign. And he, like many other DMs, might have found that large differences in the PCs level of power often leads to less fun. At least for the players on the low end.
Rillek_Denar 02-19-07, 05:09 PM	First: for God's sake, learn to spell. [directed at Bizz] Second: as the DM in question, I can confirm that his rolls were legitimate. After seeing him roll three sets, I decided to just take the whole campaign into point buy.
Elsydeon 02-19-07, 05:09 PM	Well, speaking as a player and DM, if I set rules and within that ruleset someone gets to be awesome, it's dishonest and really makes the player feel like they can't win. If you roll for stats and get good ones, that's a reward given by the system. You will also roll bad ones at times. If it is unbalancing to roll, he should be using point buy. That's why it's there, so everybody has equal resources. I can understand that balance is a concern, however. And if some unforseen circumstance came up that threw the game to hell (I remember a newbie GM that said you could AoO the same opponent as much as you wanted if they did one thing. Combat reflexes got sickening. Guy stands up, 7 attacks in the face.) I'd talk to the player, admit I didn't realize the effect it might have, and find a compromise. At the very least he should offer you equal stats to the next best set of rolls. If it were me and I felt I needed to nerf your stats, I'd add a +1 or 2 on top of Roller #2's numbers that you could put anywhere you wanted since you should actually be stronger than him.
Bizzle7 02-19-07, 05:27 PM	Well, speaking as a player and DM, if I set rules and within that ruleset someone gets to be awesome, it's dishonest and really makes the player feel like they can't win. If you roll for stats and get good ones, that's a reward given by the system. You will also roll bad ones at times. If it is unbalancing to roll, he should be using point buy. That's why it's there, so everybody has equal resources. I can understand that balance is a concern, however. And if some unforseen circumstance came up that threw the game to hell (I remember a newbie GM that said you could AoO the same opponent as much as you wanted if they did one thing. Combat reflexes got sickening. Guy stands up, 7 attacks in the face.) I'd talk to the player, admit I didn't realize the effect it might have, and find a compromise. At the very least he should offer you equal stats to the next best set of rolls. If it were me and I felt I needed to nerf your stats, I'd add a +1 or 2 on top of Roller #2's numbers that you could put anywhere you wanted since you should actually be stronger than him. Me and the DM dont have a good track record as every session he has run I have had pretty good stats and now he is deciding to do point buy after the char was built.
Elsydeon 02-19-07, 05:37 PM	*shrugs* It's a little unfair to change the rules because someone had a good set of stats come up. But if he's converting everyone to point buy that's not the worst solution. Having run games before, balance can be weird to maintain. What's the point buy you're offering, Rillek? 25 point buy hurts, but 32 is pretty cozy no matter what you play. And nobody gets outdone until character building really kicks in. Alternatively, you could offer everyone 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 to place wherever they want. Nobody would ever complain with that, and if you just roll up your baddies in a similar way it won't unbalance much of anything. Might suck if someone dumps the 8 and 10 into saving throw stats, but not many people are going to do that even if they don't know about saving throws. You could rule that Charisma can't be the 8... :D Just to keep something people won't gloss over so easily as a weakness.
Rillek_Denar 02-19-07, 05:40 PM	I actually offered a 35-point buy, but that wasn't enough to mollify Bizz, unfortunately. I may stick with 32 (if I can ever get him to play under point buy). <last post for now; off to work>
Bizzle7 02-19-07, 05:43 PM	I actually offered a 35-point buy, but that wasn't enough to mollify Bizz, unfortunately. I may stick with 32 (if I can ever get him to play under point buy). If you were a player Rilek and you rolled what I did and the DM said ok you are going to do point-buy bc you are to damn lucky think you would be piSsSed about it to. Will you have a porb doing the 18,16,14,12,10,8 with the Charisma rule for DAN????
Rillek_Denar 02-19-07, 05:44 PM	I would be ******. But I would also respect my DM. end trans
hunterc311 02-19-07, 05:53 PM	I actually offered a 35-point buy, but that wasn't enough to mollify Bizz, unfortunately. I may stick with 32 (if I can ever get him to play under point buy). Why not just ask him to stop showing up? If he's going to throw a tantrum about this, can you imagine how he's going to be in-game? Heck, don't you already know how he is in-game? Talk about DM patience.
locksmyth 02-19-07, 05:59 PM	That fact that he changed the stat system AFTER you got your stats say he's being an ass. The DM gets to decide but only BEFORE he lets you set your stats. I don't see those stats as being too powerful in any regard.
Appollyon 02-19-07, 06:02 PM	The only part of this that could be construed as unfair is that the OP was the only person who was made to use point buy. I think if that problem was a significant difference in stats, he should have had everyone use point buy. I have no problem with rolling stats, but you have to accept that sometimes there will be differences between people's die rolls. I would ask the DM to either let everyone use point buy, or if it seems reasonable, ask him if you can use one of the other players rolls that he deems acceptable.
Elsydeon 02-19-07, 06:38 PM	Ok... I'm starting to side with Rillek now. Yeah, it's kind of lame to have a good roll pulled away. But 32 point buy is cozy. 35 is seriously solid. Aside from feeling like you got swindled, are there any other reasons 32-35 point buy isn't good? Were you wanting to play a character with heavy multiple ability dependency that's lost effectiveness? I mean, I understand the feeling, but he's being pretty generous overall. And he seems to be a pretty reasonable DM. It wasn't the best idea to initially put the point buy on just you, but obviously that got fixed quickly and he's just changed the creation system for everyone because he saw the inherent flaw in rolling. When one character swings up and the other swings down the game suffers. It's why we have all these "Am I overpowered?" threads. Gaps in the level of power between players. *shrugs* I'd join the game. He was able to realize that his first idea (rolling for stats) wasn't the best and changed it without screwing people (he could've offered a 25 point buy). He hasn't gotten mad yet (or at least hasn't taken it out on you). Sounds like a good one to me. Edited to point out that there's a thread on the same page as this one about how a DM won't let a player take lower stats after rolling above the party. It made me giggle.
darkneolink 02-19-07, 06:48 PM	your stats 18/17/16/15/14/14 turn that 18 into a 16 and the 2 14 into 16 too, propose this to your DM but not in a game night/day
StoneStokes 02-19-07, 07:41 PM	Here is a proposed solution that will hopefully please the OP, the DM, and all of the other players as well: Have each player choose two stats from the six they rolled in their original rolls, and write thiem down on a piece of paper. (Bizzle will choose his 18 and 17, certainly). Each player then rolls for two new rolls. Write these down too. The last two stats are generated by Point-Buy so that the total of all six stats are worth 32 Points. If they already have more than 32 Points, then the last two scores are 8s. Place as desired. It is still likely that Bizzle will have higher stats than the other players, but unlikely that he will have astronomically higher stats. He is still being rewarded for rolling high in the first place, but there will still be balance as well. StoneStokes
StoneStokes 02-19-07, 07:54 PM	Another possible solution: Each player chooses two stats from their original six. The remaining four are generated with 12-Point Buy. (The first solution I suggested favors the group as a whole, this one favors the OP). StoneStokes
Bizzle7 02-20-07, 01:20 PM	Here is the thing. Before I rolled the dice he told us that he didnt want any Supermen. So iunderstand 100% where he is coming from trying to make the game fair but I feel this could be done two ways. He(DM) can make me lower and drop me to the other players lvl. Or bring them up to mine and throw more things at us and we will jsut have a harder time with more guys. By bringing them up he(DM) doesnt risk the other players dieing in the cross fire. But then he has to bite his tong about having Superman. He setting that we were told was in the middle of a long lived War. I think we are going to try the all even stats 18/16/14/12/10/8 but I will still feel cheated. My fellow players and I do not know any other DM's and the local shop that possibley has DM's for hire(lol), we dont go there nor do we purchase from there becasue, when we were younger he used to raise the prices for other things and once we found out we decied to stop playing there. Then the DM(rilek) went off to college and we got webcams to play still. So it could be a abuse of power, I dunno but he knows that we dont really have any one else to DM us nor do we have a store to go to and find one. So the simple solution isnt to find another DM as one of the other members posted. If anyone has a webcam and would be interested in running a small party send me a private message. Bizz
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 02:44 PM	Here is the thing. Before I rolled the dice he told us that he didnt want any Supermen. So iunderstand 100% where he is coming from trying to make the game fair but I feel this could be done two ways. He(DM) can make me lower and drop me to the other players lvl. Or bring them up to mine and throw more things at us and we will jsut have a harder time with more guys. By bringing them up he(DM) doesnt risk the other players dieing in the cross fire. But then he has to bite his tong about having Superman. He setting that we were told was in the middle of a long lived War. I think we are going to try the all even stats 18/16/14/12/10/8 but I will still feel cheated. My fellow players and I do not know any other DM's and the local shop that possibley has DM's for hire(lol), we dont go there nor do we purchase from there becasue, when we were younger he used to raise the prices for other things and once we found out we decied to stop playing there. Then the DM(rilek) went off to college and we got webcams to play still. So it could be a abuse of power, I dunno but he knows that we dont really have any one else to DM us nor do we have a store to go to and find one. So the simple solution isnt to find another DM as one of the other members posted. If anyone has a webcam and would be interested in running a small party send me a private message. Bizz Rillek, Bizz will obviously not be satisfied unless he gets to keep his stats as they were. Therefore, I have another suggestion that I was saving for just this contingency: Let Bizz keep his stats. Let the other players raise their stats to a total of 50-Point Buy equivalent (this is 9 points lower than Bizz). Begin the campaign: "A large comet hits the planet, destroying all life. Create new characters, using Point Buy." StoneStokes
Bizzle7 02-20-07, 05:38 PM	Rillek, Bizz will obviously not be satisfied unless he gets to keep his stats as they were. Therefore, I have another suggestion that I was saving for just this contingency: Let Bizz keep his stats. Let the other players raise their stats to a total of 50-Point Buy equivalent (this is 9 points lower than Bizz). Begin the campaign: "A large comet hits the planet, destroying all life. Create new characters, using Point Buy." StoneStokes LOL The whole point is I rolled them and I cant keep them nor can I even re-roll for the forth time. I enjoy playing DnD and other RPG's dont know enough ppl to play or jsut up and leave. I do not like the point buy period. I like the idea of rolling the stats because to me the character seems more real. I dont mind throwing the stats out the window aslong as I can re-roll and keep what ever I roll. Point buy to me is a DM easy fix for balenceing the game. Some may love it because it is the only even way to balence all the players but it can be done in game just as easy. The weaker stated players need to play smarter rather then hoping that the DM will keep them alive.
3DJutsu 02-20-07, 05:58 PM	Forgive me Bizz, but stfu. Your DM is being very genrous with the 35pt buy system, and imo, point-buy represents 'custom training' that your character went through. Here are some stats i pull with 32pts 16 16 14 12 10 8 and with a 34pt buy you hae two 10s' or two 12s' those are some handy stats for most characters, however I will agree that the DM changing to a point-buy because of your stat WAS a bit lame, but whatever...
3DJutsu 02-20-07, 05:59 PM	Rillek, Bizz will obviously not be satisfied unless he gets to keep his stats as they were. Therefore, I have another suggestion that I was saving for just this contingency: Let Bizz keep his stats. Let the other players raise their stats to a total of 50-Point Buy equivalent (this is 9 points lower than Bizz). Begin the campaign: "A large comet hits the planet, destroying all life. Create new characters, using Point Buy." StoneStokes I smell a plot hook...
Matthew77 02-20-07, 06:26 PM	I like the idea of rolling the stats because to me the character seems more real (snip) The weaker stated players need to play smarter rather then hoping that the DM will keep them alive. I've got the perfect solution for you then: Roll 3d6, in order. Invent a realistic background story to explain whatever odd results you get. Play smarter, because now you'll be the "weaker stated player."
StoneStokes 02-20-07, 08:51 PM	LOL The whole point is I rolled them and I cant keep them nor can I even re-roll for the forth time. I enjoy playing DnD and other RPG's dont know enough ppl to play or jsut up and leave. I do not like the point buy period. I like the idea of rolling the stats because to me the character seems more real. I dont mind throwing the stats out the window aslong as I can re-roll and keep what ever I roll. Point buy to me is a DM easy fix for balenceing the game. Some may love it because it is the only even way to balence all the players but it can be done in game just as easy. The weaker stated players need to play smarter rather then hoping that the DM will keep them alive. Have you read the two solutions I proposed? Have you considered them? Have you discussed these, or other solutions with your DM other than "let me keep my stats, wah! wah! wah!"? By continuing to whine that it isn't fair, you are not embolening your case. I was originally sympathetic to you (thus solution 2), but I am not now. Please change my mind. Good Luck, StoneStokes