Confused on Appraise Skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused on Appraise Skill [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lumin
07-05-06, 11:40 AM I'm a little confused on how the Appraise skill works. After spending a half hour last night reading and re-reading the description in the PG, it still doesn't make sense to me.

The skill only describes what happens on a "failure". It says something like, "On failure the player can estimate between 50% and 150% of the actual price. Roll 2d6 + 3, multiply it by 10% and take that value and multiply it to the 'actual' price of the item".

So why is it that when you "fail" you still get a chance of getting a better price on the item? So when the PC passes the DC check, then what happens; - do they get to know the actual price of the item? So failing can end up being better than passing the DC check?

The other half of my question is, which items should be appraised? Only sellable items, or buyable items too? As a DM, should I not tell the PC what the "real" prices are in the store, so they can try to appraise and get a lower price?
RecycledDM
07-05-06, 12:03 PM I'm no expert, but IMO appraise generally need only be applied to things that can have variable or not-so-obvious value, like gems, jewelry, artworks, furnishings, etc.

Coins, weapons and armor, magic items, mundane items, etc. have pretty clear-cut values; although magic items--or anything else, for that matter--could be fakes / counterfeit, or that normal-seeming dagger could be some heirloom of high sentimental value to a certain noble family...but these are special cases.

Failure does not affect the actual value of the item, but the perceived value. The failure idea, as I see it, is that the player underestimates the value and winds up selling off a gem for less than it's really worth, or conversely overestimates the value and insults an art dealer by demanding too much at sale time.
Morwen
07-05-06, 12:14 PM so they can try to appraise and get a lower price?
They won't get a lower price, but they will think that the item is worth much less (or much more) than what the store offers it at.

It also works the other way.. Let's say your PCs find a gem, appraise it, and get the answer of "it's worth 50gp". Then they go to a store to sell it, and the owner offers to purchase the gem at a price of 200gp. Your PCs will think they're getting a great offer, while in reality the gem might be worth 1000gp.
lumin
07-05-06, 12:18 PM overestimates the value and insults an art dealer by demanding too much at sale time.

So what if the art dealer underestimated the item in the first place? If we say that the "art dealer" (or whatever dealer is in question) is always the final word when buying the PC's items, what is the point of appraising in the first place, if the PC will only end up getting = to or < than the actual value of the item.

I suppose we could say that the dealer has his own appraise skill and maybe underestimated an item, but still, he is the final word on whether or not to buy the PC's item, so the PC's own appraise skill seems useless.
Sinaz
07-05-06, 12:28 PM You are missing the point of the Appraise check.

How much something is worth and how much the player will manage to buy or sell an item for are completely different things.

If the player succeeds an appraise check, he ends up with a confident estimation of the value of an item (per the PHB or however you've adjusted the economy for your campaign.)

If the player fails an appraise check, then his estimation is not so spot on and can be off up to 50% either low or high.

So, here's where you separate the value from the cost...

Rortagg the Ranger has found a particular shiney suit of full-plate that has dollar signs throbbing in his eyes. He attempts to appraise it (the DM rolls in confidence). Unbeknownst to Rortagg, he has failed his appraise check, and the DM informs the player that the armor, which is merely a well oiled common suit of plate, is worth 1950gp. 120% of its actual value.

So Rortagg goes to the local armor trader/smith and expects to cash it in for half its value. Rortagg confidently tells the armorer he'll let him have this fine suit of armor for a measly 975gp (half the misappraised value.)

The Armorer scoffs (as he succeeds his appraise check!) 975gp for a second hand set of plate that he'll probably have to retool for whomever he sells it to next anyway. The armorer feels insulted. He counters Rortagg, "Sir, this armor may be well kept, but all the oiling and polishing in the world won't make me believe such a common suit to be worth more than 500 coin, give or take 50." low-balling the price out of a bruised ego.

Here Rortagg's appraise roll failed him. He believed to have found a suit of armor worth much more than it really was. In trying to get what he felt a fair price for the armor was, he insulted the armorer. The armorer was then determined to show this adventurer who the real armor expert was.

Think of all the ways this could work out. If the PC succeeded his appraise check, but the armorer failed it, and he happen to allow the armorer to make an offer, theres a chance the armorer could offer more than it was worth... up to 150%. Also, he may offer much less. There's also the possibility that the player fails and under-estimates the value and sells it off for a fraction of the cost.

The appraise checks can also serve as the starting point for a series of diplomacy and bluff checks for a round of haggling.

Now, this all assumes you play the economy RAW.

I tend to play it more fluidly and offer real buy-back rates from my merchants (usually only willing to buy loot at about 10% its cost unless its trade-goods or truly fine and rare antiquities.) My appraise checks reveal masterwork, and failed appraise checks imply grossly overestimated value. "Why, this sword could easily be worth two... maybe three hundred gold pieces! What a find!" says the over-hopeful ranger Rortagg about the long sword he just lifted out of the muck of the dungeon floor.
lumin
07-05-06, 12:51 PM Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me. I guess I wasn't understanding that the DM controlled dealer also needed to pass an appraise check as well. Thanks :)
Decius
07-05-06, 01:19 PM Note that anyone who has a +2 to appraise can take 10 and get the value of common items, and only +5 is needed to take 10 to appraise some exotic items.
Also note the equipment and synergy boni. A gemsmith with 8 int and no ranks in appraise valuing a large diamond (DC 15)would be able to take 10 (10+2(jewler's lens)+2(jewler's scale)+2(synergy from craft{jewels}-1(int)=15.

A rouge with int 14-15, and no tools, would need only 3 ranks in appraise to gage the value of the same item 'in the field'.

Anyone who doesn't have an int penalty, and who has a scale, can measure the value of precious metals accurately.

Makes sense to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lumin 07-05-06, 11:40 AM	I'm a little confused on how the Appraise skill works. After spending a half hour last night reading and re-reading the description in the PG, it still doesn't make sense to me. The skill only describes what happens on a "failure". It says something like, "On failure the player can estimate between 50% and 150% of the actual price. Roll 2d6 + 3, multiply it by 10% and take that value and multiply it to the 'actual' price of the item". So why is it that when you "fail" you still get a chance of getting a better price on the item? So when the PC passes the DC check, then what happens; - do they get to know the actual price of the item? So failing can end up being better than passing the DC check? The other half of my question is, which items should be appraised? Only sellable items, or buyable items too? As a DM, should I not tell the PC what the "real" prices are in the store, so they can try to appraise and get a lower price?
RecycledDM 07-05-06, 12:03 PM	I'm no expert, but IMO appraise generally need only be applied to things that can have variable or not-so-obvious value, like gems, jewelry, artworks, furnishings, etc. Coins, weapons and armor, magic items, mundane items, etc. have pretty clear-cut values; although magic items--or anything else, for that matter--could be fakes / counterfeit, or that normal-seeming dagger could be some heirloom of high sentimental value to a certain noble family...but these are special cases. Failure does not affect the actual value of the item, but the perceived value. The failure idea, as I see it, is that the player underestimates the value and winds up selling off a gem for less than it's really worth, or conversely overestimates the value and insults an art dealer by demanding too much at sale time.
Morwen 07-05-06, 12:14 PM	so they can try to appraise and get a lower price? They won't get a lower price, but they will think that the item is worth much less (or much more) than what the store offers it at. It also works the other way.. Let's say your PCs find a gem, appraise it, and get the answer of "it's worth 50gp". Then they go to a store to sell it, and the owner offers to purchase the gem at a price of 200gp. Your PCs will think they're getting a great offer, while in reality the gem might be worth 1000gp.
lumin 07-05-06, 12:18 PM	overestimates the value and insults an art dealer by demanding too much at sale time. So what if the art dealer underestimated the item in the first place? If we say that the "art dealer" (or whatever dealer is in question) is always the final word when buying the PC's items, what is the point of appraising in the first place, if the PC will only end up getting = to or < than the actual value of the item. I suppose we could say that the dealer has his own appraise skill and maybe underestimated an item, but still, he is the final word on whether or not to buy the PC's item, so the PC's own appraise skill seems useless.
Sinaz 07-05-06, 12:28 PM	You are missing the point of the Appraise check. How much something is worth and how much the player will manage to buy or sell an item for are completely different things. If the player succeeds an appraise check, he ends up with a confident estimation of the value of an item (per the PHB or however you've adjusted the economy for your campaign.) If the player fails an appraise check, then his estimation is not so spot on and can be off up to 50% either low or high. So, here's where you separate the value from the cost... Rortagg the Ranger has found a particular shiney suit of full-plate that has dollar signs throbbing in his eyes. He attempts to appraise it (the DM rolls in confidence). Unbeknownst to Rortagg, he has failed his appraise check, and the DM informs the player that the armor, which is merely a well oiled common suit of plate, is worth 1950gp. 120% of its actual value. So Rortagg goes to the local armor trader/smith and expects to cash it in for half its value. Rortagg confidently tells the armorer he'll let him have this fine suit of armor for a measly 975gp (half the misappraised value.) The Armorer scoffs (as he succeeds his appraise check!) 975gp for a second hand set of plate that he'll probably have to retool for whomever he sells it to next anyway. The armorer feels insulted. He counters Rortagg, "Sir, this armor may be well kept, but all the oiling and polishing in the world won't make me believe such a common suit to be worth more than 500 coin, give or take 50." low-balling the price out of a bruised ego. Here Rortagg's appraise roll failed him. He believed to have found a suit of armor worth much more than it really was. In trying to get what he felt a fair price for the armor was, he insulted the armorer. The armorer was then determined to show this adventurer who the real armor expert was. Think of all the ways this could work out. If the PC succeeded his appraise check, but the armorer failed it, and he happen to allow the armorer to make an offer, theres a chance the armorer could offer more than it was worth... up to 150%. Also, he may offer much less. There's also the possibility that the player fails and under-estimates the value and sells it off for a fraction of the cost. The appraise checks can also serve as the starting point for a series of diplomacy and bluff checks for a round of haggling. Now, this all assumes you play the economy RAW. I tend to play it more fluidly and offer real buy-back rates from my merchants (usually only willing to buy loot at about 10% its cost unless its trade-goods or truly fine and rare antiquities.) My appraise checks reveal masterwork, and failed appraise checks imply grossly overestimated value. "Why, this sword could easily be worth two... maybe three hundred gold pieces! What a find!" says the over-hopeful ranger Rortagg about the long sword he just lifted out of the muck of the dungeon floor.
lumin 07-05-06, 12:51 PM	Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me. I guess I wasn't understanding that the DM controlled dealer also needed to pass an appraise check as well. Thanks :)
Decius 07-05-06, 01:19 PM	Note that anyone who has a +2 to appraise can take 10 and get the value of common items, and only +5 is needed to take 10 to appraise some exotic items. Also note the equipment and synergy boni. A gemsmith with 8 int and no ranks in appraise valuing a large diamond (DC 15)would be able to take 10 (10+2(jewler's lens)+2(jewler's scale)+2(synergy from craft{jewels}-1(int)=15. A rouge with int 14-15, and no tools, would need only 3 ranks in appraise to gage the value of the same item 'in the field'. Anyone who doesn't have an int penalty, and who has a scale, can measure the value of precious metals accurately. Makes sense to me.