Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZappoHisbane 01-08-04, 10:31 AM	I'm currently playing an almost-9th level Rogue, and I'm eagerly looking forward to 10th level when I'll pick up Skill Mastery. Beyond that I don't really have any plan for him, and I've been considering multiclassing into Wizard. I'd most likely specialize in Transmutation for Cat's Grace, Reduce Person, Knock, all that sneaky stuff. I've looked at the pros and cons, but I'm curious to see what others think of a 15/5 Rogue/Wizard vs a 20th level Rogue. Assuming I live that long of course. Anyone have better ideas for specialization (or if I should do it at all), and what schools would be best to drop?
CaoSlayer 01-08-04, 11:13 AM	you should try to take a look to the arcane tricker prc. You will need 3 or 5 wizard levels (I dont remember) for joining.
Tae Kwon Dan 01-08-04, 11:24 AM	If you were going to MC, then personally I think you should have done it earlier. If you have a 10th level Wizard or Cleric in your party already then they should have buff spells to spare on you. Let's say you think about giving up your 11th Rogue level to take 1 level in Wizard. Lose: +1 BAB 8 + INT skill points +1d6 Sneack Attack Gain: +2 Will Save All 0 level spells 4+ Int Modifier 1st level spells (in your book) The ability to cast 3 0 level spells and, most likely, 1 - 2 1st level spells. It seems like a lot, but think on how useful any of those spells will be to you now. If you're going to snag levels in a caster class it's better to do it earlier so that you can make use of the spells in a truly productive way. If you took 5 straight levels of wizard, you've missed out on some big Rogue abilities to be able to do something your friends have been doing for 10 levels at that point. I think you should stick with straight rogue at this point or you might be disappointed in what you've given up.
eudas 01-08-04, 11:48 AM	I vote for either staying pure rogue or looking at finding a contact who can train you in a rogue PRC. eudas
ZappoHisbane 01-08-04, 01:21 PM	Unfortunatly I don't have the qualifications, nor would it be in-character for any of the core PrC's from any of the core or splat-books. Other reasons I was considering a few levels of wizard: * Familiar, preferably a cat. With me being 11th level or so, it'll start out being pretty powerful off the bat. The bonus to Move Silent, combined with my ranks, ability bonus and Skill Mastery would let me have an automatic 31 on a take-10 (which I could do anytime). Best of luck hearing me (or the cat, once it can do touch spells for me) coming. :D * Sneak attacks with touch and ranged-touch attacks. Shocking Grasp alone would hurt lots, and it's damage will go up faster than my sneak attack dice. * Easier use of magic items. This one I'd need to clarify with the DM, especially since I already know that UMD in our campaign works slightly different than in the book. I currently have few ranks in UMD, and have no plans to change that. * No real buffers in the party. We have various spellcasters of varying levels of power, but in 8 levels I've seen just a single buff. This was the bard's inspire courage, and that bard also happens to be dead now. I'm getting the feeling that if I want Cat's Grace, I'm gonna have to do it myself. :) Overall, if I somehow manage to get my character to 20th level, I'll only lose +2 BAB with 15/5 vs pure Rogue. I lose +3 to my Reflex save, +2d6 to sneak attack, +1 to trapsense, and 5HP assuming average rolls. Maybe the biggest loss though is two more Rogue Special Abilities, and all the skill points. I gain the abilty to cast up to 3rd-level spells (though 1, maybe 2 of them per day at most plus specialization), have a familiar and scribe scrolls. I'll also pick up a bonus metamagic feat. My will save will be tons better than it used to be too. Hmmmmmmmmm......
bahamut_0 01-08-04, 01:31 PM	Your familiar will only be that of a lvl 1 character, because familiars power only raises with your wizard levels. At least that how it works in 3.5.
devinmdp 01-08-04, 01:35 PM	I don't think it's a bad idea at all. You just have to pick your spells carefully since at your level the lower level attack spells are almost worthless due to low DC for saves. However, even if the party wizard can buff you up, if you can do it yourself it frees the dedicated party wizard to take his spells in other things likely to be more effective for the party as a whole. There are many great 1st and 2nd level spells that lend themselves to rogues and are not truly hampered by the disparity between high and low levels. Some that come to mind: Disguise Self Alter Self Cat's Grace Bull's Strength Bear's Endurance Mirror Image Blur Invisibility See Invisible Any of the Detect Spells Jump Spider Climb Feather Fall Levitate Rope Trick None of the above are at all dependent upon saves from opponents, so they are not wrecked by having a low DC. All are quite useful to a rogue, though a couple do have short durations at low level. Most, however, have duration enough even at 1st - 3rd level to last a whole combat. Your familiar is also fine, as he gets half of your hit points and gets the Improved Evasion feat right away. IMO, almost every high level rogue should take a level or four in either wizard or sorcerer, though I'd probably recommend interspersing it from the start. Ideally: 1 level of mage per 3 levels of rogue through 16th and then pure rogue thereafter. Devin
Capt. Pixel 01-08-04, 01:42 PM	Don't MC. You dilute your PC so that he's not fully competent at anything near his total level. He just ends up being half-a$$ed at more things. :nonono:
ZappoHisbane 01-08-04, 01:44 PM	Originally posted by bahamut_0 Your familiar will only be that of a lvl 1 character, because familiars power only raises with your wizard levels. At least that how it works in 3.5. True, for the abilities on the table. However hit dice, saving throws and even applicable skills are determined by those of the character as a whole, not just from what he gained as a wizard.
bahamut_0 01-08-04, 01:46 PM	Ah, okay I see. :D
Leagle 01-08-04, 07:42 PM	Originally posted by Capt. Pixel Don't MC. You dilute your PC so that he's not fully competent at anything near his total level. He just ends up being half-a$$ed at more things. :nonono: Well, a high level rogue is not "half-a$$ed" at anything.
Lanoitakude 01-08-04, 08:04 PM	Don't get too cought up in the numbers. If MC'ing into a wizard would make you have a good time, then do it. If it fits with your character's story/etc, then do it if you want. Invisibility is probably one of the more useful spells you can pick up, though. It also makes you deadly with sneak attacks. If you go straight rogue and use melee combat, definately focus on using improved fient, because your sneak attack damage gets massive (+10d6 at level 20, thats average +30 damage each attack!)
NorthSaber 01-08-04, 08:44 PM	Definitely take a look at the spells you'd use. A simple combination of Invisibility + True Strike can make a big difference against a tough foe, and Alter Self may be the ultimate disguise trick. However, as a rogue you have access to Use Magic Device (if it still exists in 3.5 - I play exclusively 3.0), you can get all these benefits through scrolls and wands without wasting any of your rogue levels. That 10d6 sneak attack is mighty sweet... Usually it is not advisable for any rogue to multiclass, and prestige classes are good usually only if they provide the same (or better!) sneak attack bonuses. But in the end it all comes down to roleplaying (people on these boards, myself included, get way too involved in the rules and roll-playing aspects). If it fits your character concept, go for it. This is why in my campaigns I often ignore XP penalties because of multiclassing, unless there's a big munchkin-factor involved.
Nick Soapdish 01-08-04, 09:07 PM	If you're multiclassing into wizard, try to prep so that you can take Arcane Trickster after 5 levels of wizard. You'll keep getting more spells, but you'll also get more skills and increased sneak attacks. All it'll hurt is your familiar progression which is going to be way behind in most respects anyway.
devinmdp 01-08-04, 09:10 PM	"However, as a rogue you have access to Use Magic Device (if it still exists in 3.5 - I play exclusively 3.0), you can get all these benefits through scrolls and wands without wasting any of your rogue levels. That 10d6 sneak attack is mighty sweet..." On the other hand, taking even a single level of wizard or sorcerer frees up all of those ranks in Use Magic Item for other skills. Devin
MaverickWolf 01-09-04, 11:44 AM	Note that you're now assuming ranks have been spent on UMD in the first place. That's not guaranteed. If you want those buffer spells, talk to the others in your party. Party members are supposed to help one another out. Your best bet is going to be sticking with rogue. Or to take the thief-acrobat PrC from Song and Silence. It has some pretty cool abilities, and you'll only lose a die or two of sneak attack and two skill points (too lazy to figure out exact die loss right now). Well, that and UMD, but you might be able to talk a DM into letting you keep UMD as a class skill for it, as you'll still be a thief. I'm out. -Maverick-
Capt. Pixel 01-09-04, 02:37 PM	Originally posted by Leagle Well, a high level rogue is not "half-a$$ed" at anything. That's actually more to my point. I recently had a player who decided to play a Fighter5/Rogue2/Sorceror3 by the name of 'Duncan'. As a tenth level PC, Duncan found it very frustrating to tackle CR10 challenges. Duncan couldn't come close to finding traps and devices geared for a tenth level party thief. Duncan had quite limited spell casting ability. Only having 1st level spells in a CR10 encounter made him pretty usless in that role. As a fighter, Duncan was constantly getting his butt handed to him, because he was, in reality, only a 5th level fighter (maybe he coudl be considered '7th level' because of his BA, but it still wasn't enough) All-in-all, Duncan tried to be a little bit of everything with that character and ended up being a little bit of nothing at a lot of things. Lanoitakude is right, though. Don't get caught up in the numbers. Multi-classing a PC can lead to a more flavorful character. If you can recognize the shortcomings that MCing creates (as the example above), then you can role-play around them and have a successful career. I stand by my original advice, though - don't Multi-class. It hurts the PC more than it helps in the long run. :cool:
Twisted Puppy 01-09-04, 03:01 PM	I'd make a couple of recommendations: 1) Take Improved Evasion instead of Skill Mastery, but the latter may be a better choice for your character concept - that's a matter of personal opinion. 2) Keep going with the Rogue, maybe eventually taking some Duelist PrC levels. High level Rogues are awesome when flanking - you basically are using a Fireball spell when you get the sneak attack bonus. 3) If you take Wizard levels, that can be fun - I'm assuming the character is an elf so you won't take a multiclass penalty. I won't repeat what the others said about the advantages to that, I do agree with them. 4) If your character is evil, Assassin levels are viable. 5) Depending on how you view your character, the Slayer of Domiel (BoED) is a fun-looking PrC, which you can easily qualify for. Have fun with it...
Leagle 01-10-04, 09:26 AM	Originally posted by Capt. Pixel That's actually more to my point. I recently had a player who decided to play a Fighter5/Rogue2/Sorceror3 by the name of 'Duncan'. True. But this is a different kettle of fish (urg) as he is already a substantial rogue. My last group had a player who made a char with about one level in each core class.:rolleyes:
The Livewire 01-10-04, 11:21 AM	Well, Picking up about 5 levels of caster is useful. If you have a scroll/wand of lower resistance, that ray of frost can be nasty for a red dragon if you flank. (sneak attack damage will be frost oriented) More effective on fire giants though. :) Also the BYOBuffs is good. If your DM is moe psionic friendly you might look at the psion, then prestige into soul knife. BYOB, and bring your own weapon. :angel:
BlaineTog 01-10-04, 11:43 AM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy 1) Take Improved Evasion instead of Skill Mastery, but the latter may be a better choice for your character concept - that's a matter of personal opinion. I agree. Skill Mastery is useful, but if your Modifier is as high as you say, then taking 10 generally won't be necessary. For the bonus a familiar give you: buy an Ioun Stone that given an unnamed bonus to Move Silently. If it gets destroyed, you don't lose 20% of your XP. 2) Keep going with the Rogue, maybe eventually taking some Duelist PrC levels. High level Rogues are awesome when flanking - you basically are using a Fireball spell when you get the sneak attack bonus. Better than a fireball: A) Precision. You don't have to worry about accidentlly "Snake-attacking" your friends. Also, you just have to beat their AC, not reflex save. 3) If you take Wizard levels, that can be fun - I'm assuming the character is an elf so you won't take a multiclass penalty. I won't repeat what the others said about the advantages to that, I do agree with them. Levels in wizard offer a distinct advantage, but I would suggets getting a lot of utility spells. Seriously: a Rogue15/Wizard5 is *probably* a weaker character (certainly a weaker Rogue), but a small supply of utility spells can be a lifesaver. IMC, the DM worked with the Sor/Rogue to "mix" the classes (and came out with something blatantly overpowered, but that's another story). We had a PC duel and he would have been toast to my Bard (who was both invisible, and flying on a broom) in 5 rounds had he not had his utility spells (Such as No Light, Darkness, and Faerie Fire (which is a DRuid spell, but remeber: he's overpowered)). In short: levels in wizard allow you to do more with your character (ie you gain versatility) but what you do can't really be done as well (ie loss of power). RP reasons are probably the best ones to MC. 4) If your character is evil, Assassin levels are viable. :devil: Assassin's kick some serious :censored:. 5) Depending on how you view your character, the Slayer of Domiel (BoED) is a fun-looking PrC, which you can easily qualify for. Slayer of Domiel SUCKS! I like the idea (and would desperatelly love to play one), but my dice bad screams in agony every time I look it over. They AT LEAST need the assassin's Death Attack (Death Touch is so weak). If you decide to go this rout, I seriously suggest talking to your DM about tweaking it so that it's at least equal to the assassin.