Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boombrakh 12-23-06, 04:03 PM	I've been having certain problems with my DM and that is that he can't be wrong. When I ask if everything is according to the rules he gets all defensive and lashes out at me for knowing stuff outside the game and that I am not at all right, I am wrong and I dont know anything about his adventures. I have no problem accepting the fact that I can be wrong and he is absolutely right that I dont know anything about his adventures. But the thing is, I know a thing or two about this game by now. I do know that for instance, a human vampire with 144hp (along with a werewolf at about 40-60hp and 4 guards) is not an appropriate encounter for a group where the average level is 9. During this session where we encountered the vampire and his minions, the vampire used his Dominate power on our Wizard and told him to kill my character. The Wizards player proceeded to roll a Will Save of 19 and failed. Fine I thought at first while the Wizard dispelled my Sorcerers protective spells. The next round, when the Wizard started to cast a bunch of lethal fire spells at my character I questioned if the Wizard shouldn't get another saving throw and the DM said no. Confused after that nights session, when I got home I looked up the Vampire template since I couldn't shake the feeling that something was wrong and that is when I saw that the Dominate power works just like the Dominate Person spell and I proceeded to look that up as well. Under the rules of the spell, it says that you cannot have a subject go against its nature and seeing as our characters were really close friends since years back it felt a bit odd that he would attack me without getting a new saving throw (with a +2 modifier at that). Now, when I spoke to the player of the Wizard about this he was as confused as I was and relieved because he didn't want to kill my character any more than I did and he had already paid 900xp in a penalty fine for telling me before I cast spell at him earlier during the session how much hp he had left. (The dm fines us when we do meta-talk in combat which is just fine, but never that much before. It usually stays at level*10xp) Anyhow, the next day, the dm contacted me and told me that when i check up on things it makes him feel he wants to throw the campaign to hell and he was wondering why i had to second-guess him all the time. Now, to my defense, I wasn't accusing him of doing anything wrong. Hell, I am fully aware of the fact that I know a heap more rules than he does and it's ok. I also can't unlearn everything i've picked up during the time i've spent playing this game. What is he expecting? That everyone he plays with can't ever have played the game before? I've been a dm before, i've read stuff in the DMG and the MM-books. My character can cast Polymorph and if I dont check up on the MM-books, how am I to know what I can poly into? It is so frustrating to get accused of being the bad guy when all I do is ask if that thing he's doing at the moment is correct or not. All he has to do is calmly say that it is a special variant of something or whatever but every time he lashes out, I know I caught him in the act of 1) not knowing what he's doing or 2) blantly cheating because me and the other players know for a fact that our dm hates to "lose" and that is what he feels he's doing every time we defeat one of his well crafted npc's. What bothers me more is that the thing we're playing right now is something official from WotC because i've seen the printouts he's reading from and there was one of those WE boarders on the papers. And as far as I know, npc's in official adventures go by the average-ish hp and they don't use unbalancing rules like unresistable Dominate. There, i've gotten it offa my chest. What should I do about this situation because confronting him would be like confronting someone who's cheating in the act. You wont get a confession and an understanding dialogue with the guy, you'll get a cornered animal whose only instinct is to bite. help?
Derren S. 12-23-06, 04:09 PM	Yeah I know such DMs. As soon as you even suggest that the rules say something differently even without actually protestinf they get mad accuse you of metagaming and maybe even threaten you. The only thing you can do with those DMs is either to stay silent and nod to whatever they say or to walk out. I had such a DM in an online game where I played a Half-Dragon and was bitten by a wererat. I botched the save (below 10), but as HDs are the dragon type my character should be immun to lycantropy (I assumed that it was lycantropy, but apparently it was only a normal disease despite coming from a werecreature). As such type things get overlooked often I asked if I would be immune against lycantrophy and he said no. I accepted that and continued gaming. When a CoDM was taking over the game I informed him of this decision as it was not by Raw and he responded much like your DM. He accused me of metagaming, said I should keep my nose out of this and asked me if I always argue with DMs (mind you I was just informing him, not damanding anything). He also asked me how I got the rediculus idea of beeing immun to it. When I told him about the dragon type he said me that was wrong and half dragons were only dragonblooded. He even lied to me that this was an official errata of Races of Dragon (which does not exist) and not a houserule.
Radijs 12-23-06, 04:25 PM	I'm going to play devils advocate here because I sometimes have a similar feeling as your DM has now. This might be surprising but DM's spend a lot of effort building their campaigns and preparing their sessions. Sometimes when I'm DM-ing and my players whine again for whatever reason I tend to get pretty ******(explitive for annoyed/angry) because I feel that my efforts aren't appreciated. Your DM is probably feeling the same way about your actions. You're technically not wrong for calling the errors of your DM. But do try to get a feel for his position and try to understand him. I keep a minimum of houserules in my campaign and I extend one of these houserules to apply to myself when I'm in a campaign where I am a player. That rule is: "Do not question the DM during game time." PS: If anyone thinks I'm a bad DM because of this post please tell me.
boombrakh 12-23-06, 04:39 PM	As much as I hate house rules and I have made that quite clear, I have abided by the majority rule on this in our group and we've let one or two slide. Normally, I don't make a fuzz about things, but when the first character I have ever gotten above level 5 (im level 10 now) is about to die and who I absolutely love to play, I want to know that everything is kosher. I wont like it when I die from a save-or-die roll or when I get smacked over the head for enough damage to kill an Tarrasque, but i'll accept it. When my fellow player is forced to kill me due to a faulty ability from a vampire who isn't even within our legal xp-range then I am going to ask if everything is alright. I appreciate you taking the role of the devils advocate and it's good to do so. It helps me see the other side of the situation. I am feeling guilty for something I can't help. It's not like I can "un-learn" everything i've read.
Radijs 12-23-06, 04:47 PM	Tell me about it. Still you feeling bad about this or you feeling that you've been treated unfairly won't take away the feelings of the DM. He feels you're treating him badly by "hounding" him with your corrections. I would try approaching him diffrently. Calling out his errors during sessions will only add to the stress and discomfort. If he doesn't like to 'lose' the game imagine how he feels losing face in front of his friends. Talk to him one on one sometimes and structure the conversation so it has a positive ring to it. Complement him on the things he does right and the things you enjoy about his game. Then try to support him, telling him you want to help him improve his game even further. I hope you do want to help him improve his game. If you just want to put him down then don't bother.
boombrakh 12-23-06, 04:56 PM	I hope you do want to help him improve his game. If you just want to put him down then don't bother. He is the second best DM i've ever had the privvy to play with and i've done a lot of playing in my days. And since it's about an hour and ten minutes til christmas eve here i'll share a bit of why that is. He once made the entire group so emotionally involved in the game that we all tossed our resentment towards elves aside and actually wept (I use the word "wept" because nothing else describes it better). But my problem here is just like when you confront a friend who fudges the dice one time too many and you cant just sit there without saying anything anymore. It won't end well because I know how he is when he is cornered (even if im not trying to corner him, he'll feel cornered). He is a great DM or rather ST (Story Teller) but in a game of DnD, the rules are actually quite important since they are there to balance out the game (or so I am led to believe anyways).
Lunar_Shadow 12-23-06, 04:57 PM	Read the quote in my sig. If that doesn't work just sit him down after the session and point out in the rulebook where he messed. And if that dosn't work hit him with something akin to a folding chair.
boombrakh 12-23-06, 04:59 PM	And if that dosn't work hit him with something akin to a folding chair. I honestly doubt that would lead to a better gaming enviroment. And to the other thing with pointing out rules, that's what got me into this mess to begin with.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-23-06, 05:09 PM	I've been having certain problems with my DM and that is that he can't be wrong. When I ask if everything is according to the rules he gets all defensive and lashes out at me for knowing stuff outside the game and that I am not at all right, I am wrong and I dont know anything about his adventures. ...he had already paid 900xp in a penalty fine for telling me before I cast spell at him earlier during the session how much hp he had left. (The dm fines us when we do meta-talk in combat...)... ...every time he lashes out, I know I caught him in the act of 1) not knowing what he's doing or 2) blantly cheating because me and the other players know for a fact that our dm hates to "lose" and that is what he feels he's doing every time we defeat one of his well crafted npc's.Wow. I would never hang out with that guy.
Radijs 12-23-06, 05:10 PM	I'll ignore the folding chair comment. It makes no sense. Wow, sounds like I want some of his talent in storytelling. Anyway, assuming you'd go and talk to your friend, what would you say? Perhaps there's a better way of putting it.
boombrakh 12-23-06, 05:23 PM	Anyway, assuming you'd go and talk to your friend, what would you say? Perhaps there's a better way of putting it. Problem with me is that I am normally as delicate as a bulldozer on crack. Assuming we do get to the point where we sit down face to face to talk, I'd probably ask him if he cheated. I'd follow up with taking the example of the combat I wrote about in the initial post where a level 7 Bard, level 8 Scout, level 9 Wizard and level 10 Sorcerer had an encounter with a level 20-22 vampire (due to the 144 hp), a werewolf and four mooks, and ask him if that was straight outta the adventure he had printed out from the website, was appropriate for that party. I doubt that this single incident is what sparked this conflict and I am sure that there is something deeper, underlying and infested puss brewing. I think that our biggest issue is that we're both the "Alpha Male", except that when i'm around, he gets pushed to the "Beta". I dunno.. I don't know what to say to him.. I want to just bury this and then, the next time it happens i'll probably explode.. Bleh!
High Octane 12-23-06, 05:41 PM	In game decisions should be taken very carefully. Its the Dms world and how it is run is really up to him. That said, outside the game, you dont have to put up with jack ****. Be sure to say "I respect your decision as a DM, but you are acting like a complete jackhole." "The game is fine. YOU are a dick." Ask yourself if you would put up with the same from a player. If not, he needs to go or you do.
Nightbluejh 12-23-06, 05:41 PM	Dms are allowed to cheat, while agree that it should be for the good of the campaign, you don't really know what he has in mind before he does it and you should watch yourself before second guessing him. Also, most DMs change or alter the standard NPCs in printed adventures, it is not uncommon. I don't think the encounter you explained is to difficult for your party assuming your party has the appropriate magical irems for the level and is AT LEAST 3 or more in number. I understand the frustration of him "lashing out" that is not aproperate for a DM to do, but maybe you shouldn't be so fast to call him on "cheating". After all the DM is GOD.
Radijs 12-23-06, 06:05 PM	DM's are allowed to cheat. Thats the thing about unlimited power. I can quote from the scrolls of uncle Ben but I won't waste time on that. Rather then putting the bulldozer in high gear and trying to grind him into the preverbial pavement you can try a more tactful approach. Try to organize your conversation aiming not to just projecting your anger on him but aiming to look for solutions to your problems. Like I said, begin with a complement, one thats true of course and then slowly steer the conversation to the point about which you are unhappy. Let him tell you why he is unhappy. Important here is that you don't make excuses for yourself. Afterwards try to work towards a solution to both your problems.
Darkmatter20 12-23-06, 06:13 PM	I'm going to play devils advocate here because I sometimes have a similar feeling as your DM has now. This might be surprising but DM's spend a lot of effort building their campaigns and preparing their sessions. Just going to jump in here and say only that some/most DMs do. But preparation (in whatever form it takes) is a hallmark of a good DM whether this is writing out stuff or practicing running games on the fly. Preparation is key. PS: If anyone thinks I'm a bad DM because of this post please tell me. Nope don't think you're a bad DM but maybe a little naive. Same as me about two years ago before I realised "Hey not all DMs put in as much work as me to know the rules and prepare the game." That rule is: "Do not question the DM during game time." DMs aren't infalliable and really how long does it take to glance at a rule book? Particularly if its going to cost a PC dear. Example in this case the rules for the vampires Domination gaze on the wizard. When you get into the habit of just using whatever rules you think of it gets harder for people to remember what the actual rules are. One game you played this way and then checked it up and now you play this way. Dms are allowed to cheat, while agree that it should be for the good of the campaign, you don't really know what he has in mind before he does it and you should watch yourself before second guessing him. Also, most DMs change or alter the standard NPCs in printed adventures, it is not uncommon. I don't think the encounter you explained is to difficult for your party assuming your party has the appropriate magical irems for the level and is AT LEAST 3 or more in number. I often alter stuff as well but this vampire had (from the OP) ~140hp. Since the vampire template does not add any hit dice, only alters all hit dice to d12, and undead cannot gain CON bonuses with the exception of a feat I think in Liber (sp) Mortis this guy has a few levels under his belt. The example vampire is a level 13 Monk/shadow dancer with 13d12 hit points (90hp) and is CR 15 on his own. Well into the "Overpowering" encounter level for this party (average level 9) normal party. Add in bonus guys and mis-reading of rules for domination..... I understand the frustration of him "lashing out" that is not aproperate for a DM to do, but maybe you shouldn't be so fast to call him on "cheating". After all the DM is GOD. Man I just hate it when I see the phrase "The DM is GOD." The DM is NOT god but merely the setting. Too many times I've heard/seen DMs justify themselves with that egotistical statement. (Not say you do this Nightbluejh your post was very reasonable/sensible but I really really hate that phrase when it gets thrown around. Chalk it up to bad experiences.)
Cifer 12-23-06, 06:18 PM	I too suggest talking. However, you might want to polish your arguing style before doing it. Simply google and read one or two texts about it. IMO, there are three major things to observe: 1) State whatever you say as an opinion or observation of yours, say why you have arrived at that opinion and ask for his opinion. Don't go "You've cheated", but "In the scene where we fought that vamp, I had a problem. The encounter seemed way harder than what was usual for a ninth-level group. Why did you put us against those guys? What were you trying to do? Further, my character was killed in that encounter because of that save the mage should have gotten. This bothered me, because while I see that you of course can change rules, this one directly killed a character I very much liked and could identify with. Why did you do it?" 2) If he gets defensive, stay calm and friendly - don't try to bore into his defenses with force. The statement "I don't have to explain that" is best answered by "You're right. However, I ask you to do it." If you're feeling extra-cheesy, add "as a friend". 3) Stay polite. As soon as both sides are shouting, nothing at all will be accomplished. Man I just hate it when I see the phrase "The DM is GOD." The phrase is basically an abbreviation of a very true thing: The only real power any participant in D&D has is voting with his feet. Everyone can leave the roleplaying at any moment (at least if you were not too enthusiastic with your bondage gear). The difference between the players and the DM in this regard is that there is no game when the DM walks.
Radijs 12-23-06, 06:27 PM	My rule specifically states "During the game" I'm pretty much the rules lawyer in my local roleplaying circle and I still sometimes get called on my mistakes. However I get called on these mistakes after the session has ended. Then I'll gladly admit my error (If I was in error) and send an email all round informing people of my mistake and the way it will be handled from now on. The important part for me is not to be bothered during the game. Because I've got enough on my mind trying to control the actions of 3 spellcasters, 2 melee machines and god knows how many spell effects in place.
Radijs 12-23-06, 06:29 PM	I too suggest talking. However, you might want to polish your arguing style before doing it. Simply google and read one or two texts about it. IMO, there are three major things to observe: 1) State whatever you say as an opinion or observation of yours, say why you have arrived at that opinion and ask for his opinion. Don't go "You've cheated", but "In the scene where we fought that vamp, I had a problem. The encounter seemed way harder than what was usual for a ninth-level group. Why did you put us against those guys? What were you trying to do? Further, my character was killed in that encounter because of that save the mage should have gotten. This bothered me, because while I see that you of course can change rules, this one directly killed a character I very much liked and could identify with. Why did you do it?" 2) If he gets defensive, stay calm and friendly - don't try to bore into his defenses with force. The statement "I don't have to explain that" is best answered by "You're right. However, I ask you to do it." If you're feeling extra-cheesy, add "as a friend". 3) Stay polite. As soon as both sides are shouting, nothing at all will be accomplished. Quoted for truth. Especially #2 and #3
Dragonsblood 12-23-06, 06:53 PM	Maybe this was an encounter you were supposed to run from. I think the DMG says that about 5% of encounters should be "overpowering." Remember that DnD isn't just a hack 'n' slash CRPG where you kill everything in your path. Was escape not an option? Your group also seemed poorly prepared. A simple scroll of protection from evil would have (temporarily) negated that dominate person. While I can sympathize with you because your DM's attitude sucks, from what I can tell he was not in the wrong for throwing this encounter at you.
Cifer 12-23-06, 08:13 PM	The important part for me is not to be bothered during the game. Because I've got enough on my mind trying to control the actions of 3 spellcasters, 2 melee machines and god knows how many spell effects in place. Actually, I find that a laptop and some knowledge in Excel works wonder in that regard. No more sorting through papers.
Undercover 12-23-06, 09:32 PM	Boombrakh, you are right the DM shouldn't lash out like that and correct about how he should state things calmly. Said that, I'd have ruled the same way and denied a second save. Reason is I interpret "your nature" as things you're born with, and a specific friendship isn't one. It'd go like the instinct of survival, the nature of "man" and "woman", the natural instinct of a mother to protect her children, and not much else.
Ioosef 12-23-06, 10:04 PM	Races of Dragon (which does not exist) It does exist, I just wanted to clear that up. Anyway, if talking doesn't work (sometimes it doesn't unfortunatelly), try showing him his mistakes and the consequences of his mistakes (might sound mean, but eventually it'll teach him to not mess with the rules too much). For example, let the wizard kill your character (as much as you'd hate that to happen), but after the combat if the wizard escapes or lives through the combat, get him to show his sadness through some extreme action, like getting extremely depressed or to make things worst, kill himself. That should show the DM that he should be a bit better prepared for the next time. May be you should have him check with someone else to see if such encounter is just out of the party's reach and that kinda stuff.
angryman 12-24-06, 02:45 AM	As DM, I don't mind being corrected if a) I am wrong, b) it doesn't interrupt a scene (unless it's really important) and c) you do it politely. But generally I am not wrong (I will admit to it if I am) and I'll revise it if it's killed a PC. If you're rude about it, I'll still change it, but hate your character and subconsciously kill you off for being an ass.
Croix Ragnan 12-24-06, 03:27 AM	It does exist, I just wanted to clear that up. Anyway, if talking doesn't work (sometimes it doesn't unfortunatelly), try showing him his mistakes and the consequences of his mistakes (might sound mean, but eventually it'll teach him to not mess with the rules too much). For example, let the wizard kill your character (as much as you'd hate that to happen), but after the combat if the wizard escapes or lives through the combat, get him to show his sadness through some extreme action, like getting extremely depressed or to make things worst, kill himself. That should show the DM that he should be a bit better prepared for the next time. May be you should have him check with someone else to see if such encounter is just out of the party's reach and that kinda stuff. I think (not sure) that he is referring to an errata, which, to my search efforts, does not exist. I also think your way is a great back up plan. Boombrakh, you are right the DM shouldn't lash out like that and correct about how he should state things calmly. Said that, I'd have ruled the same way and denied a second save. Reason is I interpret "your nature" as things you're born with, and a specific friendship isn't one. It'd go like the instinct of survival, the nature of "man" and "woman", the natural instinct of a mother to protect her children, and not much else. My opinion (and what I think the rules intended) was that it also factored in alignment. Unless the wizard was very evil (and he might have been), mercilessly slaughtering a long-time close friend would violate his alignment like tenta...ummm yeah. As an interesting related question (one that I don't want an answer to, only want people to think about), what happens if you order a dominated suicidal creature to commit suicide? I'm going to play devils advocate here because I sometimes have a similar feeling as your DM has now. This might be surprising but DM's spend a lot of effort building their campaigns and preparing their sessions. Sometimes when I'm DM-ing and my players whine again for whatever reason I tend to get pretty ******(explitive for annoyed/angry) because I feel that my efforts aren't appreciated. Your DM is probably feeling the same way about your actions. I'd agree in normal circumstances, but wasn't this guy playing a module? I'll side with the DM in most matters, but while I don't think he deserves a space in one of our numerous Rant-About-Your-DM threads, I do think he is well in the wrong. While I know it can be difficult, try to maintain the same level of decorum and tact speaking with him that you are usually speaking with in here. Typically in a group, I know the rules better than anyone else (GM included). If there's a serious question and I don't know the answer, either the GM rules in a judicial capacity or I look it up. I often disagree with the ruling, but I let it slide. If you do need to confront him on this issue (if your character is alive and well and there's rarely a problem with this, you're being too sensitive), you need to make it a point to remain calm and try to keep the GM calm. "Anyhow, the next day, the dm contacted me and told me that when i check up on things it makes him feel he wants to throw the campaign to hell and he was wondering why i had to second-guess him all the time." Honestly, this surprises me more than anything else. Why would a GM threaten to leave, just becuase a player disagrees with him. In plot contexts, that would be "whiny railroading" (but you said this guy's good at plot). If possible (and it might not be), some time sit down with him and try to work through some of the rules with him. A learning session for the DM. Good plot DMs are much rarer than good combat DMs, so make some kind of effort to reconcile your differences (rather than explode with them). Oh well, enoough of me sounding patronising.
boombrakh 12-24-06, 03:34 AM	DM's are allowed to cheat. Thats the thing about unlimited power. I can quote from the scrolls of uncle Ben but I won't waste time on that. I can't really agree with you on this.The DM isn't allowed to cheat, but he is allowed to bend the rules. The reason why is because those rules are the ones that make up our characters and if they don't apply then the reason we do certain things or make certain choices are based on something that doesn't really exist. Maybe this was an encounter you were supposed to run from. I think the DMG says that about 5% of encounters should be "overpowering." Remember that DnD isn't just a hack 'n' slash CRPG where you kill everything in your path. Was escape not an option? I seriously doubt it. We were ambushed after being invited by the vampire in question to a dinner in his mansion/house. I just feel that the DM might have "fudged" things a bit after me and the Wizard unleashed a helluva lot of damage from our spells the first round, killing the werewolf without breaking a sweat. The mooks were also not a match. Your group also seemed poorly prepared. A simple scroll of protection from evil would have (temporarily) negated that dominate person. Like you said above, DnD isn't just about hack 'n' slash and that is why we gracefully accepted the invitation from a noble in the city we've helped save from an invading Orc tribe or two. We left armor and weapons back in our temple because you don't really bring them to a dinner, now do you? Of course, you couldn't possibly have known the setting around the encounter with the vampire. One might say then that our group was extremely poorly prepared. While I can sympathize with you because your DM's attitude sucks, from what I can tell he was not in the wrong for throwing this encounter at you. Me neither, because we got the vampire on the run finally and killed off a bunch of his mooks. Problem is the discussion around the encounter. I have no problem being thrown in a situation im not prepared for or unable to handle. What I do have a problem with is cheating (sorry grossly bed) the rules so that I almost lose my character on account of one of the other players. Boombrakh, you are right the DM shouldn't lash out like that and correct about how he should state things calmly. Said that, I'd have ruled the same way and denied a second save. Reason is I interpret "your nature" as things you're born with, and a specific friendship isn't one. It'd go like the instinct of survival, the nature of "man" and "woman", the natural instinct of a mother to protect her children, and not much else. Well, the only rule-wise nature thing in DnD is the Alignment really and even that would have prevented the Wizard from killing since he is borderline LG. Also, nature does in no way have to be limited to what you are born with since as long as you live you make up the rules of your moral and ethics and this the rules of which you live. These are when set in stone after you live by them, your nature. Further though, and I didn't bring this up because I didn't think it was needed, under Dominate Person it says something in the lines of that the dominated subject wont stop for anything except for the most essential things for survival (like eating, sleeping, and so on) when carrying out his order. Now we apparantly have the Wizard on the run while he was/is preparing new spells which would take 8 hours and most certenly is not something absolutely needed for survival. If you're rude about it, I'll still change it, but hate your character and subconsciously kill you off for being an ass. It sure feels a lot like this right now. Important though is that I didn't interrupt the scene with this. I asked about it once, got a no and continued playing. Not until I was home later that night did I do something about it.
draco1119 12-24-06, 04:18 AM	I'll ignore the folding chair comment. It makes no sense. Where's CryoSilver when you need him? *sigh* Now I have to find his "Handy Guide of Steve." Here we go: Dealing With Steves: a Handy Guide (http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/steve.pdf) http://www.filefactory.com/file/e34270/ ^ Alternative Link
kelvinaw273 12-24-06, 04:25 AM	The way to put it to your DM is like this: "DM, the game is great, the adventure is great, the problem I have is that I don't know what to expect. The rules as I know them don't apply all the time in your game, and I don't when I can expect to apply them and when not to {cite example of Dominate Person and Vampire}. I am not saying you are wrong, but some changes you make while they may not be arbitrary appear so from my point of view. Can you help us all improve the game by improving consistency?"
runestar 12-24-06, 04:42 AM	I personally feel that if a dm wants to change a rule, he should at least announce such a change before the session starts. That way, the players at least have the time to accustom themselves to such a change and adjust their strategies accordingly, rather than have said houserule thrown in their face all of a sudden. I can tell you that it is very annoying to be doing something which you know is correct by the RAW and then have the dm suddenly change the rules on the fly and invalidate everything I just did. Of course, this assumes you are not exploiting some loophole in the game.:) I concede that the rules do state that a DM is free to run things as he deems fit. However, I still feel that he had better have a darn good reason for doing things the way he did. A dm who cites "Because I can" for every change he makes is going to quickly lose the respect and goodwill of his players. If his houserules are perfectly justified, such as to prevent game abuse due to cheese such as infinite PP loops or acting as arbiter of unclear rules interpretations, then it is okay. He is after all, merely in authority, he is not actually an authority in that sense. That rule is: "Do not question the DM during game time." Again, its the classic "It okay so long as it is not corrupted" analogy. If you are running a game very well/to perfection, the players would have no reason to question your actions. If you suck at it, they should have every right to tell you off and question you. It's their time as much as yours - why should they suffer at the hands of an inept dm and waste precious hours running a screwed-up game?:confused: Just my 2 cents. Comments are always welcome.:)
Croix Ragnan 12-24-06, 12:54 PM	Or just, you know, take Dominate Person when you get the chance :D .
McSlugger 12-24-06, 03:37 PM	He is the second best DM i've ever had the privvy to play with and i've done a lot of playing in my days. And since it's about an hour and ten minutes til christmas eve here i'll share a bit of why that is. He once made the entire group so emotionally involved in the game that we all tossed our resentment towards elves aside and actually wept (I use the word "wept" because nothing else describes it better). But my problem here is just like when you confront a friend who fudges the dice one time too many and you cant just sit there without saying anything anymore. It won't end well because I know how he is when he is cornered (even if im not trying to corner him, he'll feel cornered). He is a great DM or rather ST (Story Teller) but in a game of DnD, the rules are actually quite important since they are there to balance out the game (or so I am led to believe anyways). I find you really need to accept DMS and players for who they are. If he Dms a particular way, you have to accept the good with the bad. It is only a hobby, and no one wants to stress out over improving their style as a DM (well some do). I once had a group that was satisfied with my DM style. Everyone was complimentary. One of the players decided to give me some constructive criticism, which was fine. But then, he kept doing it. Each week he would critique what he did not like about the adventure or how I run things. I realize I am not a perfect DM, but the criticism began to put too much pressure on me. I had to stop running games, because I became too focused on how this one player was reacting. Of course every DM is different, but just be careful. Is this such a problem that it needs ot be made an issue of?
tuffn00gies 12-25-06, 12:39 PM	I'm going to play devils advocate here because I sometimes have a similar feeling as your DM has now. This might be surprising but DM's spend a lot of effort building their campaigns and preparing their sessions. Sometimes when I'm DM-ing and my players whine again for whatever reason I tend to get pretty ******(explitive for annoyed/angry) because I feel that my efforts aren't appreciated. Your DM is probably feeling the same way about your actions. You're technically not wrong for calling the errors of your DM. But do try to get a feel for his position and try to understand him. I keep a minimum of houserules in my campaign and I extend one of these houserules to apply to myself when I'm in a campaign where I am a player. That rule is: "Do not question the DM during game time." PS: If anyone thinks I'm a bad DM because of this post please tell me. I do. Change your rule to "Do not argue with the DM during game time." and it's ok. If the PC is getting hosed because you've made some kind of error, that's the time to bring it up. If the DM responds in a respectful way, that should be the end of it. According to the OP, that's not the case. Getting angry and defensive when the player has a question is a bad sign from someone who's supposed to be an impartial game referee.
tuffn00gies 12-25-06, 12:42 PM	If he doesn't like to 'lose' the game imagine how he feels losing face in front of his friends. I can't help but question the wisdom of having someone like this as a DM to begin with. DMs shouldn't be trying to 'win' in any way. They have total control over everything in the game except the PCs. Isn't that enough?
ladyeve 12-25-06, 02:57 PM	is this a young group of gamers? this sounds like immature behavior both on the part of the DM and the Players.
boombrakh 12-25-06, 03:56 PM	is this a young group of gamers? this sounds like immature behavior both on the part of the DM and the Players. The DM is 27, I am 27, the others are in order: 20, 21, 21, 25, 26 and 33
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 12-25-06, 04:50 PM	Power corrupts, and absolute power ... is actually kinda nice But seriously its a hard thing for allot fo DM's to work with, the feeling that they are competing againstt he PC's. most DM's know the campaign is all aboutt he PC's but they still play to win, and then kinda roll over at the end, or they play towin lose badly and then get annoyed with having lost. Thing is both are bad no one wants to win easily, and no one wants to feel the DM let them win. so yeah you cant have it all, but if your DM cant beat you playing by the rules you dont need someone like thatand just FYI an ancient red wyrm eating you in your sleep is still by the rules, kinda ******, but you get my point, if the DM has to cheat to win there are many layers of issues here.
strenoth 12-26-06, 01:50 PM	A player who notices a mistake in the rules, sespecially those having an impact on the characters, should always (but politely!) note that there seems to be a discrepancy, and what he beleives the correct ruling should be. And then DROP IT if the DM decides to rule otherwise, at least, until after the game. the DM shoudl be able to handle beign called on a rule during the game, otherwise his ego is way to fragile. The player shoudl be able to handle being put off that way, to deal with the possible error later.
Merestil Haye 12-26-06, 10:55 PM	There are a few assumptions in the OP which I think need challenging.I do know that for instance, a human vampire with 144hp (along with a werewolf at about 40-60hp and 4 guards) is not an appropriate encounter for a group where the average level is 9.This causes my scepticism bump to itch. For starters we know just how much threat the werewolf and the guards were - exactly zero. The Op's Sorcerer and the Wizard wiped them out in one round. What I seriously doubt was that the Vampire had only average hitpoints. This is a major so-far unchallenged assumption, and I don't believe it, because 144hp is not the average result of any number of d12s. The average of 22d12 is 143hp, and 23d12 average out at 149½. I think that the vampire was 12HD and the DM had given it maximum hp. That would make it CR13 or 14 (depending on whether it had any NPC class levels or not.) A serious challenge that may well result in one or more fatalities, but not overwhelmingly strong. Under the rules of the spell, it says that you cannot have a subject go against its nature and seeing as our characters were really close friends since years back it felt a bit odd that he would attack me without getting a new saving throw (with a +2 modifier at that).That first statement is nonsense. Dominate person can force a subject to do things against its nature. Without more specific knowledge on the character of the Wizard and the IC history between the OP and the Wizard I can't definitively say that I would not have allowed a second save - I very probably would. I wouldn't suggest you raise your hopes though - a DC of 22 is not unfeasible given the creature's Cha boost. Now, when I spoke to the player of the Wizard about this he was as confused as I was and relieved because he didn't want to kill my character any more than I did and he had already paid 900xp in a penalty fine for telling me before I cast spell at him earlier during the session how much hp he had left. (The dm fines us when we do meta-talk in combat which is just fine, but never that much before. It usually stays at level*10xp) Anyhow, the next day, the dm contacted me and told me that when i check up on things it makes him feel he wants to throw the campaign to hell and he was wondering why i had to second-guess him all the time.This does grate on me though. FIrstly fining characters xp strikes me as something that should almost never happen. And secondly, the DM should be secure enough to listen to questions at the table and reevaluate his position, especially if a character may die because of a blown ruling. I don't advocate a free-for-all, but the player should be able to appeal, state his case, adduce evidence from the rulebooks and get a quick-and-dirty ruling from the DM on the spot, with a post-session review to confirm or reverse that ruling. (Which is more disruprtive to gameplay - stopping to check the rules or finding a way to bring a slain character back without any cost to the character or his party members? Including no loss of level.) I've been a dm before, i've read stuff in the DMG and the MM-books. My character can cast Polymorph and if I dont check up on the MM-books, how am I to know what I can poly into?The DM shall tell you. That's how. He adjudicates it based on your IC knowledge (as shown by your Knowledge skills). It is so frustrating to get accused of being the bad guy when all I do is ask if that thing he's doing at the moment is correct or not. All he has to do is calmly say that it is a special variant of something or whatever but every time he lashes out, I know I caught him in the act of 1) not knowing what he's doing or 2) blantly cheating because me and the other players know for a fact that our dm hates to "lose" and that is what he feels he's doing every time we defeat one of his well crafted npc's.That is a problem. I don't get invested in having the NPCs "win" when I DM - I just set them going and then let the dice fall where they may. What bothers me more is that the thing we're playing right now is something official from WotC because i've seen the printouts he's reading from and there was one of those WE boarders on the papers. And as far as I know, npc's in official adventures go by the average-ish hp and they don't use unbalancing rules like unresistable Dominate.There is no evidence for an unresistible Dominate. I really think you are misinterpreting the way the spell works. You seemed surprised that the DC for the save was 20 or higher, when I'd expect it to be at least 22. You also don't seem to have grasped that the spell can easily force people to do something against their nature, unless it is obviously self-destructive. As for the hitpoints, when I DM a module, the monster's hp is the thing I just about always change on a significant NPC. I rarely make it max HP - usually about 75-80%. I really think that you need to let go of your assumption that the monster has average hp.
Lethanic 12-27-06, 05:57 AM	I think the original Poster also has one other failed assumption: Does the DM really have an obligation to play the module exactly as written? When I read ANY prewritten I want to run I have a pencil in hand to tweak and change things based on the party I intend to run through it. Hit points go up - or down, numbers of opponents go up - or down. . .
Bjorn9486 12-27-06, 11:40 AM	I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here are both a player and DM. Player While playing one time we came across a party of 5 humanoid things (the names escape me now) and a 1/2 orc barbarian. We here them comming a mile off so we set up a trap so that myself, a fighter, will come at them from the front; A wizzard, cleric and ranger will come at them from the side and a rouge and ninja will come from behind. (party level was a 3 all around) We spring the trap and attack, me the only one fluent in their languge throwing around "your moma" jokes to try to provoke them to attack me since I had the highest AC and 2nd highest HP. Well these things plus the 1/2 orc all rage and start kiling people left and right. The only thing the cleric does the entire battle is move and heal. My guy dies after about 2 hits. The ninja and rogue can't even hit the 1/2 orc because of his AC. So I start to get very frustrated because I think he sent us up against a CR 10-ish encounter. So I say to him mid battle "Are you sure this challenge is appropriate for us." His replay was that it was good for a party of 4 at the same level. Thats all I say to him about it and we end the session right after the battle is over." So I'm still ****** that he sent us up against this challenge so I start adding up some numbers. It turns out to be a CR 7, which extremely difficult isn't impossible. So I talk to him later about it and he agrees that it was difficult (plus all the cleric had done all night was heal and I was pretty sure he was getting mad about it) and from that point on we have had fairly decent encounters. I just wanted to point out that I did say something to him in game, but let it slide until it was both a better time and I had some time to gather more information and state my case. I'm pretty sure he appreciated that I didn't stop the game to cry, but also took the time to care enough to try to make his game better. DM On to the work of the DM. Yes the DM has an incredible job of preparing for the day(s) of play. Well you may play for 3 hours game time, it probably took him 10+ hours of prep time, and that was only for the things he can think of. I had an encounter once that went horribly wrong and was all due to my bad planning. The PC's came upon a orc camp surrounded by small (20 ft) high hills, in the center being the camp. When I set up this encounter I figured they would stand at the top of the hill and shoot at the orcs, slaying some and the only thing that would live would be the 4 tougher orcs I made. Well, they decide to split up and sneak around the camp, the 3 rouges trying to sneak attack and kill the badder orcs (they were black, so they knew) and then attack the rest of the camp. Well I had built these guys so horrible that not a single one was downed in a sneak attack because of there bad hit points. From there on out the battle just sucked. I was fudging dice so horribly that it wasn't even funny, and even Ad Hoc-ing a "tied up cleric" in a tent just to heal them. At the end of the fight I told them this too, so they wouldn't be mad. They had done everything right and it was my fault that had gone so wrong, so I appologized for it. They said that it was ok, but I think they appreciated that I told them I had messed up. Like I said, that is just my 2 cents and I hope it helps.
boombrakh 12-27-06, 12:10 PM	I just wanted to point out that I did say something to him in game, but let it slide until it was both a better time and I had some time to gather more information and state my case. I'm pretty sure he appreciated that I didn't stop the game to cry, but also took the time to care enough to try to make his game better. I am not quite sure why I have given the impression that I stopped the game session and worse yet, the battle, to nag about rules. I clearly wrote that I asked about it, the DM said no and I didn't bother until after I got home. You aren't the only one who has mentioned this and it gets me thinking that it is way more occuring than I would like to think or that I came off as unclear. If it was the latter of the two, then this post should clarify that right up. .boom
Bjorn9486 12-27-06, 01:29 PM	I am not quite sure why I have given the impression that I stopped the game session and worse yet, the battle, to nag about rules. I clearly wrote that I asked about it, the DM said no and I didn't bother until after I got home. I'm sorry you weren't giving me that impression, I was just agreeing that along with you, I waited to talk to the DM instead of blowing up in his face because I am also like a "bulldozer on crack":) . I personally feel that you did the right thing and think you handled it very well.
BW0222 12-28-06, 03:09 AM	boombrakh, >Contradicting the DM News flash... DMs are people too. They make rules mistakes and like any other person their reactions to mistakes can be varied and frustrating. People generally don't like admitting to mistakes. 3.x is complex enough that rules mistakes are common. That said, there are lots of times when DMs have legitimate reasons for not owning up to mistakes. First, there might be something you aren't aware of. Maybe the vampire has some ability you didn't know about? Maybe you weren't supposed to fight the vampires for several levels, you were supposed to bring the 15th-level cleric of Pelor NPC with you when you fought them, or you didn't follow the clues about the sun rod in the library? Sometimes you need to give the DM the benefit of the doubt. Second, it might not be worth argueing over. Sometimes it is faster to make a ruling (even if you know it is wrong) just to get the game going. Third, some players argue a lot. DMs get tired of wasting time with every little arguement and become defensive just out of habit. However, DMs should also recognize that they are human and make mistakes. Ideally, the players won't notice and the DM can correct it the next time. However, sometimes players do notice and you have to own up to it. Some advice to players. First, players also make mistakes and they often don't have the entire picture. Challenge rules with that in mind, "In case X was the situation, the dominate spell ..." Second, some rules are open to intepretations. Many (as these forums show) can be ruled different ways. Sometimes you don't get the answer which you like and you have to accept that. Third, there are polite ways of bringing issues up. Stopping the game, arguing at the table, etc. typically make DMs highly unlikely to help. Wait until after the game and try phrasing it in terms of ... "In the future..." rather than "You were wrong." Forth, some DMs are mighty loose with the rules. It is just their play style. If they fudged a rule for a dramatic effect, fine. Fifth, don't fret over obsure rulings, ones with limited impact on the game, one's which really are over, etc. Sixth, don't ask the DM to roll back time. DMs hate this. If you died because of a ruling, don't expect the DM to roll back time to the point in the encounter where something went wrong. Allow him to decide how to correct the effects of the mistake. This typically makes the DM must more sympethic about fessing up to a mistake. Finally, in the case of your DM... Many DMs don't see the need to follow the rules closely. Have an out of game talk with the DM. Let him know what you do like about the campaign, but be honest that you would rather that he try to follow the core rules more closely. Let him know that you (and presumably other ) understand he trying to appear arbitrary, but that it feels that way. If he doesn't change his style (and it may be hard for him to do so), stop fighting it. Let him see the results. Let him slaughter to party a few times with his CR 15 encounters and rules blunders. When he realizes that the party is dead, the campaign over, folks get tired making up new characters, etc. perhaps then he is able to learn that inapproriate encounters and bad rulings can end the campaign. Eventually, the players just enter a state of disbelief in the campaign -- stop taking it seriously, laugh when hordes of undead dragons appear, spend time roleplaying in the market rather than following plot, etc. If not, after the party is slaughtered once more, have someone else take up the next campaign. If a DM isn't willing to learn from mistakes, then the next campaign is likely to be the same way.
boombrakh 12-30-06, 09:26 AM	Update: I've now spoken(-ish) to my DM (we've been chatting) and as I suspected, he went completely defensive on me. It came to the point where he said that maybe he shouldn't throw the campaign to hell, but perhaps reconsider who gets to play. Then he proceeds to tell me that he doesn't threaten me, but rather that he informs me concerning this whole thing. I've decided that however much I love this campaign, my character and playing with my friends, this aint worth it. So I told him do decide if he wants me to play with him and in doing so, drop it all and just go on with everything or tell me not to be back. It's a damn ****** situation and a helluva way to end 2006.
Rivelstraz 12-30-06, 10:31 AM	I got a little problem with this. I've been DMing for several years and well, seeing as everybody wants to play with me, I'll say I'm actually good at it. DMing a lot gives you a lot of rules knowledge, be it spells, classes, special attacks from any book, be it basic, completer or so on. Now, there's another DM who has been DMing for 4-5 years and he never gets better to say so. It's like if he was stuck at the "newbie DM" status. He knows the rules because he's been playing, not because he has taken the time to understand how grapple (example) works. The problem arises when he's doing something wrong and well...I can't avoid correcting him. He house-rules thing on the flight instead of admiting he's wrong unless it works against the players. Last game it was like this, me somewhat explaining leap attack since it was the first time I was using it (Mind he once had a barbarian with leap attack) Me : "Ok, I'll charge using leap attack and I'll get a -2 attack penalty to get +6 damage with power attack & leap attack" Him : "How's that?" Me : "Well, leap attack works with power attack, so since I'm using a two-handed weapon, I get a 2to1 ratio with damage and power attack, but it's 3to1 with leap attack. So, -2 penalty, +6 damage. Without leap attack, +4 damage" Him : "Ah no, I house-rule it otherwise. Just multiply just strength bonus to damage" Me : "But that way I'm getting +15 flat damage each time I leap-attack, it's way too good" Him : "Ah, fine, then use it the weak version how you want" Me : "..." Or the classic warlock nerf, limiting the amount of times I could cast Eldritch Blast or the invocations. I can't avoid correcting my DM. I guess I'm a jerk.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 12-30-06, 12:21 PM	Ypu know i just want to point oput that everyone says dont bring it up at the table, btut here are plenty of DM's out there who will say well its done now sorry you got screwed with my sunder mistake and lost that epic sword, but i will make sure you do it right next time. then when the schoked look hits your face they add well you should have mentioned it at the time then i could ahve done somethign about it its too late now.
Anaxander 12-30-06, 12:49 PM	There is a difference between bringing something up at the table, i.e. formulating a polite request/question or arguing an issue, bringing the game to a stand-still. In my group, the first is possible. The second I try to avoid.