Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 03-01-07, 01:11 PM	I recently joined a group. The group before I joined was Neutral (evilish) wizard, Fighter (TWF!), and a ninja. So, no healing, no face, no tracking, etc. I built my favored soul/human paragon with tracking, face, and healing skills. My character at 5th level has +15 to diplomacy (not the best I could do, but still not bad) and I speak 11 languages. Up to this point in the campaign the wizard has been the primary face with his 13 charisma (and somehow he has 10 languages). In the first game I tried several times to use my character's diplomacy skill, at all times it was shot down, but the wizard spoke for the party 90% of the time we interacted with NPCs, and was never required to roll diplomacy (even though we were speaking directly with the Simbul, at 5th level). I've DM'd for the guy before and he does talk quite a bit more than I feel his characters should, but I thought it was only because "the face" of the party wasn't talking much (she's crazy shy) but she was doing good with diplomacy rolls and I could hear what she was saying. So, should I 1> just rework my skills to have 0 ranks in diplomacy or bluff, because they are worthless skills if you "roleplay" right (IE play your character as if his charisma is 18 and he's maxed out his diplomacy skill, even if he has 0 ranks in the skill and is barely above average charisma). 2> whine to get more time in the spotlight?
kelvinaw273 03-01-07, 01:23 PM	There's a time to RP those skills, and a time to roll them. If you are interacting with an NPC you have met before, then if there is no hostility it can just ease down into RP. When you meet a creature that you have never met before, is possibly hostile, and you may have offended it THEN you need to roll Diplomacy!
Azezel 03-01-07, 02:55 PM	recently there's been a bit of a punch-up on the mesage boards of another popular RPG (naming no names). I have valiently stood under the banner of 'Let the dice decide'. But it is not a popular position and I don't know why. There are a lot of people who seem to think that the player's ability should count for far more than the character's. To me this is insane, but it is nearly hopeles to try and convince somebody of this, if they do not already beleive it to be so. Long story short, OP: You are in the right, but it is not worth the aggro to fight for it. Sorry.
danielinthewolvesden 03-01-07, 03:09 PM	Why not sit down with your DM and discuss this like adults? If he prefers Role to Roll, and has little use for the Diplomacy skill, then he should not have a problem with your dropping it.
EvilVegan 03-01-07, 04:57 PM	Why not sit down with your DM and discuss this like adults? If he prefers Role to Roll, and has little use for the Diplomacy skill, then he should not have a problem with your dropping it. That's the amusing thing. Its like a crazy monty-haul hack and slash most of the time. But when it comes to RP your character's abilities, skills, level, etc have no importance. Like we were fighting a dragon. After the large size dragon fell down dead (after fighting like a moron) a cave opened at it's feet with all of its treasure. Its a funny game. Might as well be playing munchkin now that I think about it.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-02-07, 11:03 AM	There too schools of thought on this. One is let the Dice decide. Basically what you were expecting. +15 to diplomancy means you can talk your way though things. Regards of what you actually say. This is criticised becuase it down plays the actual role play of an encounter. This lends mechanical numbers in place of actual role play. Also becuase the chaarcters are speaking less, and rolling more there is less chance for actual developement of character personality. The other methood is the role play version. What you say in character is waht you say in charcter. Doesn't matter what the ranks/abilites are. Your talking with the NPC and dice checks are not needed. The major critisisms for this school is that: If the player is a naturall charismatic then in effect recieved free bonuses in the social skills. However a players is socially inept then they recieve penalties to the skills. All of this is based on the meta-game abiltiy of the player, and not his character. I personally perfer to use a hybrid of the two. i still expect my players to role play these encounters. However I also cann for the appropriate roll. That way if they say something offense, but roll really high on the diplomancy role. I have the NPC react as if it were exactly what they wanted to hear, or what have you. I also see my players use this methood too as they will roll the check, the role play the result. A resent example was when the player of an Elan rolled an even 0 on a diplomancy check. he roled played it as if he were singing a song off key that indacated the bandits they were talking to were inbred.
TarlSS 03-02-07, 12:03 PM	I prefer a combination of the two. Roleplaying is certainly part of the game, and I don't really think it should fall to the side to a pair of rolls. I do let people slide if it's a rather simple 'Yes or No" kind of deal, IE a clear cut negotiation. However, in more complex deals, I might be more lenient in interpreting someone's words and meaning and go on their intentions when rolling. For a reality check, I do make people roll. Like if someone makes a brilliant speech that would bedazzle the guard- but he's playing Bark the Barbarian with CHA 6- then I ask for a diplomacy check. As to your specific complaint, I think that's unfoundered. 13 Charisma, or above average Charisma, is about what an actual person that can speak well has, or more. 10 languages is pretty easy to get for a wizard. If you feel you're getting overridden by this wizard fellow, I'm sorry. Either talk to him about it or take it. He's playing a legitmately eloquent, intelligent character. People like that are often persuasive. Unless he has some kind of professional training, I don't think he's drawing on real life experience inequivelent to his character's status. After all, 10 is the average. If you speak poorly, or are constantly getting ridden over by others, you are probably in the 10 charisma range. Your average Joe on the street doesn't speak out and won't be heard over a crowd. People with higher Charismas are probably not playing D&D, but rather running for political office or other popular pursuits.
Lazzmaniandevil 03-02-07, 06:08 PM	I like a "roll and role" technique. The player rolls the dice first, but hide the result so only he can see it. He adds his modifiers, then roleplay according to the result. He then show either the dice or his final result to the DM, who compares it to the roll of the NPC, and responds accordingly. With this method, the dice is used like the coach of the improv team, who whispers into the player's ear the general direction the improv should be going, but let the player built around that. I think that way a lot of freedom is left for the player to built his character's personality, even if they have the same dice result. For example, if two PC are asking the countess for favor and both of them get a final result of 30 on their diplomacy check, one might roleplay it as taking the time to compliment the countess, while the other might politely remind the countess of the services his family did for her in the past. And the DM can apply circumstance modifiers, +5 to the first one because the countess really cares about her look and -5 to the second one because the countess likes to think she did everything by herself and hates being reminded that some people have help her in the past. It also give an extra motivation for the players to listen when the DM described the countess as "looking highly pretentious and full of herself, continuously combing her hair or playing with her pearl necklace"...