Could someone explain how Level Adjustments work exactly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Could someone explain how Level Adjustments work exactly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Devin, The Rogue Princess
09-30-05, 01:57 PM Okay, I would like to make a Doppelganger Monk PC to be my party's arch-enemy. However, I'm not quite sure how I give him the class. Do I first give him 4 levels of M. Humanoid (as it says in the Book), and then add the Monk's starting stats onto that? And do those levels of M. Humanoid count towards his 20 levels before becoming Epic?
Radijs
09-30-05, 02:26 PM The Doppelganger has both a level adjustment of 4 and 4 hit dice of monstrous humanoid.

When determining a characters ECL (Effective Class Level) you add the level adjustment to the racial hit die and then add any class levels it might have.

So a Doppelgnanger with 2 levels in lets say...rogue has an ECL of 4 (level adjustment)+4(racial hit die)+2(class levels)=10
Arishem
09-30-05, 02:38 PM We'll a Doppleganger has 4 levels of monstrous humanoid AND a 4 level adjustment. its makes im a ECL 8

He would start out as a 4th level character, but to advance to 5th level, he would need to have the exp of a ECL 9th level and then he would have 4levels in monstrous humanoid, 1 level in monk, and the 4 level adjustment.

Its easier to understand without racial levels. imagine you are a ll 1 monk with a template that adds +4 lvl adjustment. what this means is you only have 1 class level..but you are considered equal to a lvl 5 creature. So to advance to lvl 2 in your class you take have to advance your ECL to lvl 6 (lvl 2 class and +4 LA) You would need 15,000exp (the level needed for lvl 6) to advance your base class to lvl 2.

I certain ive explained it pretty poorly. but im tired and dont have my books near me...maybe someone can clear it up better
Merestil Haye
09-30-05, 02:50 PM Okay, I would like to make a Doppelganger Monk PC to be my party's arch-enemy. However, I'm not quite sure how I give him the class. Do I first give him 4 levels of M. Humanoid (as it says in the Book), and then add the Monk's starting stats onto that? And do those levels of M. Humanoid count towards his 20 levels before becoming Epic?Start by rolling dice to generate a set of abilioties as if he were a normal PC. Apply racial adjustments.

Give him the benefits of his racial Hit Dice. These include base attack and base save bonuses, hit points, skill points, two feats and all the rest of the gubbins that go along with being a 4th level character (except that his ability increase is already worked into his abilities).

Then you "layer" the monk levels on top, just as if he were a multiclass character Doppelganger 4 / Monk (x).

His CR will be 3 + ½ per Monk level up to 4 + 1 per monk level above 4. Use this for determining the xp awarded when the PCs finally face and defeat him.

His character level will be Monk Level +4, for purposes of determinimg maximum ranks in skills, number of feats, number of ability score increases etc.

His Effective Character level will be Monk Level +8. This only matters for xp purposes should he join the PC group for a while.

Hope that helps :)
Ogmug
09-30-05, 03:02 PM best investment i have made:

Etools

Here is what etools comes up with using a doppleganger as base race, and adding 1 level of monk (mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race)

Unknown, Male Doppelganger Monstrous Humanoid4/Mnk1: CR 4; Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger); HD 4d8+4(Monstrous Humanoid) , 1d8+1(Monk) ; hp 31; Init +1; Spd 30; AC:17 (Flatfooted:16 Touch:13); Atk +5 base melee, +5 base ranged; +5 (1d6+1, Slam); SA: Detect Thoughts (Su) ; SQ: Immunity: Charm (Ex), Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Change Shape (Su), Subtype: Shapechanger; AL LG; SV Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +8; STR 12, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 13.
Skills: Bluff +5, Disguise +5.

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapon Proficiency.
Possessions:
Goods: Coin: gp (9000) (9,000 gp).

As you can see, it re-iterates what is being said. 4hd + 4la +1 class level = ecl of 9. he starts out with monster hd, and add 1 monk hd. I am not too happy with the CR it gives him (4? i would think it would be 5), but it is a quick and easy way to generate monsters with classes.
Ogmug
09-30-05, 03:23 PM dp
Merestil Haye
09-30-05, 03:30 PM best investment i have made:

Etools

Here is what etools comes up with using a doppleganger as base race, and adding 1 level of monk (mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race)

As you can see, it re-iterates what is being said. 4hd + 4la +1 class level = ecl of 9. he starts out with monster hd, and add 1 monk hd. I am not too happy with the CR it gives him (4? i would think it would be 5), but it is a quick and easy way to generate monsters with classes.Your copy looks like it runs off 3.0, and is incorrect for a 3.5 game.

The Doppelganger Monk should have four feats; being 5HD grants two and Monk 1 grants two bonus feats.

CR is only 3, as Monk is not an associated class with Doppelganger and therefore only increases the CR by 1 per 2 levels until exceeding 4th level Monk. (Associated classes are a concept introduced in 3.5)
Ogmug
09-30-05, 03:43 PM Your copy looks like it runs off 3.0, and is incorrect for a 3.5 game.

The Doppelganger Monk should have four feats; being 5HD grants two and Monk 1 grants two bonus feats.

CR is only 3, as Monk is not an associated class with Doppelganger and therefore only increases the CR by 1 per 2 levels until exceeding 4th level Monk. (Associated classes are a concept introduced in 3.5)

Did you miss this part? this is the reason you don't see the additional feats, skills, equipment, etc. I did not bother to pick them. It has 3 feats that the DM can pick (above its monster normal feats) and 21 additional skill points that are unassigned
(mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race)

And actually, dopplegangers advance per "character class" (All classes are associated to them per 3.5 MM, page 67. as a doppleganger can be taken as a character race. Most creatures that can be taken as a race by players include the section : Creature as a player character)
Merestil Haye
09-30-05, 04:18 PM Did you miss this part? this is the reason you don't see the additional feats, skills, equipment, etc. I did not bother to pick them. It has 3 feats that the DM can pick (above its monster normal feats) and 21 additional skill points that are unassignedSorry, yes I did miss that.And actually, dopplegangers advance per "character class" (All classes are associated to them per 3.5 MM, page 67. as a doppleganger can be taken as a character race. Most creatures that can be taken as a race by players include the section : Creature as a player character)No, the Associated and Nonassociated class concepts apply to all races with 2 or more Racial HD. Monsters ith 1 racial HD are advanced purely as a character and their CR calculated accordingly. Monsters with 2 or more racial Hit Dice are advanced as shown below, whether they advance by character class or by HD.Advanced Monster Challenge Rating
When adding class levels to a creature with 1 or less HD, you advance the creature like a character. Otherwise, use the following guidelines.

Adding Class Levels
If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities.

When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

Apologies to Devin, Rogue Princess :) I (and Ogmug too, I'm sure) want to make sure we're giving you the right advice.
Ogmug
09-30-05, 05:39 PM Tell me, what associated class you would give a doppleganger.

The associated classes are for monsters that do not have the player character block.

example: Frost giants - They are not given a block on "Frost Giants as a Player character" and as such, should have the associated class applied (fighter in this case is thier associated class)

Minotaurs however, do have a "mintaurs as characters" block, and as such, do not have an associated class. They do have a "favorite character" as barbarian.

The example given in the MM shows how to properly advance a frost giant, with both a fighter class, and a wizard class (1/2 cr for wizard). This is prevalent throughout the MM. If it has a "XXXX as characters" you can advance it normally for character classes as per precedents

The additional precedent is set by the code used in etools. This code is supposedly (note the supposedly, I am well aware of how bad code can be debugged and QA'd) reviewed with WOTC prior to release. Codemonkey publishing is the only character generator that I know of that is licensed and reveiwed by WotC.
eudas
09-30-05, 06:38 PM the best thing i can recommend is just like any schoolwork: read it, and read it again, until it sinks in. go away a while, let it sink in some more, come back and read it again. eventually you'll understand it.

eudas
Devin, The Rogue Princess
09-30-05, 06:43 PM Apologies to Devin, Rogue Princess :) I (and Ogmug too, I'm sure) want to make sure we're giving you the right advice.

No, I appreciate it! ^^ I can't say that I understand all of what you're saying, but I think I get the basics of it.
Ogmug
09-30-05, 06:55 PM Basically we agree on principle, just not on implementation

My POV:
In the back of the monster manual, it details how to deal with advancing the CR of a monster when you add character classes. My view is if a monster has the "xxx as characters" block, it advances the CR as the character class (and you will note that the words "by character class" are also in the stat blocks of those types of creatures)

Merestils POV (as I understand it) is that the MM says as i paraphrased above, but that it applies to EVERY creature over 2hd, period.

As for how they work in the above example:
Per DMG, you add the LA for the doppleganger (+4) to the hit dice for the doppleganger (also +4) and class levels (+1 in this case). This gives you a +9. This is the ECL (effective character level) of the creature. So, you would assume that the creature has 36,000 exp minimum. It needs 9000 exp to advance to 2nd level monk.
You treat it as a 9th level character for exp (for determining how much it gets from the DMG exp tables. example. If this 1st level monk/doppleganger fought a CR2 monster, it would only get 225 exp, but a 1st level monk (normal pc) would get 600).

Does this make it any better, or is it clear as mud?
Nom
09-30-05, 07:19 PM For opponents, you should worry about CR not ECL/LA (as mentioned).

The best way to think of LA are as "handicap" levels. They are not real levels and don't provide any benefit of real levels, but are assessed against the character as if they were levels when calculating XP gained or XP required to increase level.

So a Doppleganger Mnk3 PC has character level 7 (4 monstrous humanoid (doppleganger) HD + 3 monk HD), with all effects and benefits thereof. However, when calculating XP (only), treat it as if it also had 4 extra levels (from LA +4). Thus, it earns XP as an 11th level character (ECL 11 = effective character level 11), and requires enough XP to reach level 12 (66,000 XP) before it can gain another level.
Ogmug
09-30-05, 07:26 PM To further clarify:

a doppleganger / monk3 is a multi classed character. It has 4 levels of monster (doppleganger) and 3 levels of monk (for determining monk abilities). The HD of this is 4d8 for doppleganger, and 3d8 for monk.

the LA is for exp determination only as Nom stated.
Merestil Haye
09-30-05, 07:54 PM My POV:
In the back of the monster manual, it details how to deal with advancing the CR of a monster when you add character classes. My view is if a monster has the "xxx as characters" block, it advances the CR as the character class (and you will note that the words "by character class" are also in the stat blocks of those types of creatures)

Merestils POV (as I understand it) is that the MM says as I paraphrased above, but that it applies to EVERY creature over 2hd, period.That pretty much summarises our relative positions, yes.

You asked what classes are associated for a Doppelganger? Well considering the SRD has this to say about DoppelgangersDoppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived.I think I'd say that Doppelgangers are sneaky. So Ranger, Rogue. any class from Complete Adventurer are associated classes. Others are nonassociated - specifically including the Monk as an unassociated class.

Devin : The basic difference between Ogmug's position and mine is that, if you follow Ogmug's line, you will award more xp for some monsters than if you followed mine.

To take an example. Consider a Doppelganger Monk 6. What CR is he?Ogmug's position is that the Doppelganger is CR9. He takes the base CR of the Doppelganger and adds 1 for each monk level.

My position is that the Doppelganger is CR7. This is because the Monk is an unassociated class for the Doppelganger, and therefore each level of Monk adds one half to the CR until the doppelganger has the same number of Monk levels as he does racial Hit Dice. Since he has 4 HD as a Doppelganger, that means the first four Monk levels count as only +0.5 CR each, and the last two count as +1 CR each. The CR is therefore 3 (Doppelganger) +2 (first four Monk levels) +2 (last two Monk levels).If you want this guy to be the BBEG, spending a bit of time statting him up now might be worth it. Then se how hard you think he would be for a party of 4 of a gicven level to fight, and decide for yourself which one of us gives better advice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devin, The Rogue Princess 09-30-05, 01:57 PM	Okay, I would like to make a Doppelganger Monk PC to be my party's arch-enemy. However, I'm not quite sure how I give him the class. Do I first give him 4 levels of M. Humanoid (as it says in the Book), and then add the Monk's starting stats onto that? And do those levels of M. Humanoid count towards his 20 levels before becoming Epic?
Radijs 09-30-05, 02:26 PM	The Doppelganger has both a level adjustment of 4 and 4 hit dice of monstrous humanoid. When determining a characters ECL (Effective Class Level) you add the level adjustment to the racial hit die and then add any class levels it might have. So a Doppelgnanger with 2 levels in lets say...rogue has an ECL of 4 (level adjustment)+4(racial hit die)+2(class levels)=10
Arishem 09-30-05, 02:38 PM	We'll a Doppleganger has 4 levels of monstrous humanoid AND a 4 level adjustment. its makes im a ECL 8 He would start out as a 4th level character, but to advance to 5th level, he would need to have the exp of a ECL 9th level and then he would have 4levels in monstrous humanoid, 1 level in monk, and the 4 level adjustment. Its easier to understand without racial levels. imagine you are a ll 1 monk with a template that adds +4 lvl adjustment. what this means is you only have 1 class level..but you are considered equal to a lvl 5 creature. So to advance to lvl 2 in your class you take have to advance your ECL to lvl 6 (lvl 2 class and +4 LA) You would need 15,000exp (the level needed for lvl 6) to advance your base class to lvl 2. I certain ive explained it pretty poorly. but im tired and dont have my books near me...maybe someone can clear it up better
Merestil Haye 09-30-05, 02:50 PM	Okay, I would like to make a Doppelganger Monk PC to be my party's arch-enemy. However, I'm not quite sure how I give him the class. Do I first give him 4 levels of M. Humanoid (as it says in the Book), and then add the Monk's starting stats onto that? And do those levels of M. Humanoid count towards his 20 levels before becoming Epic?Start by rolling dice to generate a set of abilioties as if he were a normal PC. Apply racial adjustments. Give him the benefits of his racial Hit Dice. These include base attack and base save bonuses, hit points, skill points, two feats and all the rest of the gubbins that go along with being a 4th level character (except that his ability increase is already worked into his abilities). Then you "layer" the monk levels on top, just as if he were a multiclass character Doppelganger 4 / Monk (x). His CR will be 3 + ½ per Monk level up to 4 + 1 per monk level above 4. Use this for determining the xp awarded when the PCs finally face and defeat him. His character level will be Monk Level +4, for purposes of determinimg maximum ranks in skills, number of feats, number of ability score increases etc. His Effective Character level will be Monk Level +8. This only matters for xp purposes should he join the PC group for a while. Hope that helps :)
Ogmug 09-30-05, 03:02 PM	best investment i have made: Etools Here is what etools comes up with using a doppleganger as base race, and adding 1 level of monk (mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race) Unknown, Male Doppelganger Monstrous Humanoid4/Mnk1: CR 4; Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger); HD 4d8+4(Monstrous Humanoid) , 1d8+1(Monk) ; hp 31; Init +1; Spd 30; AC:17 (Flatfooted:16 Touch:13); Atk +5 base melee, +5 base ranged; +5 (1d6+1, Slam); SA: Detect Thoughts (Su) ; SQ: Immunity: Charm (Ex), Immunity: Sleep Effects (Ex), Change Shape (Su), Subtype: Shapechanger; AL LG; SV Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +8; STR 12, DEX 13, CON 12, INT 13, WIS 14, CHA 13. Skills: Bluff +5, Disguise +5. Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Simple Weapon Proficiency. Possessions: Goods: Coin: gp (9000) (9,000 gp). As you can see, it re-iterates what is being said. 4hd + 4la +1 class level = ecl of 9. he starts out with monster hd, and add 1 monk hd. I am not too happy with the CR it gives him (4? i would think it would be 5), but it is a quick and easy way to generate monsters with classes.
Ogmug 09-30-05, 03:23 PM	dp
Merestil Haye 09-30-05, 03:30 PM	best investment i have made: Etools Here is what etools comes up with using a doppleganger as base race, and adding 1 level of monk (mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race) As you can see, it re-iterates what is being said. 4hd + 4la +1 class level = ecl of 9. he starts out with monster hd, and add 1 monk hd. I am not too happy with the CR it gives him (4? i would think it would be 5), but it is a quick and easy way to generate monsters with classes.Your copy looks like it runs off 3.0, and is incorrect for a 3.5 game. The Doppelganger Monk should have four feats; being 5HD grants two and Monk 1 grants two bonus feats. CR is only 3, as Monk is not an associated class with Doppelganger and therefore only increases the CR by 1 per 2 levels until exceeding 4th level Monk. (Associated classes are a concept introduced in 3.5)
Ogmug 09-30-05, 03:43 PM	Your copy looks like it runs off 3.0, and is incorrect for a 3.5 game. The Doppelganger Monk should have four feats; being 5HD grants two and Monk 1 grants two bonus feats. CR is only 3, as Monk is not an associated class with Doppelganger and therefore only increases the CR by 1 per 2 levels until exceeding 4th level Monk. (Associated classes are a concept introduced in 3.5) Did you miss this part? this is the reason you don't see the additional feats, skills, equipment, etc. I did not bother to pick them. It has 3 feats that the DM can pick (above its monster normal feats) and 21 additional skill points that are unassigned (mind you i did not pick feats, or anything else, just generated the class+race) And actually, dopplegangers advance per "character class" (All classes are associated to them per 3.5 MM, page 67. as a doppleganger can be taken as a character race. Most creatures that can be taken as a race by players include the section : Creature as a player character)
Merestil Haye 09-30-05, 04:18 PM	Did you miss this part? this is the reason you don't see the additional feats, skills, equipment, etc. I did not bother to pick them. It has 3 feats that the DM can pick (above its monster normal feats) and 21 additional skill points that are unassignedSorry, yes I did miss that.And actually, dopplegangers advance per "character class" (All classes are associated to them per 3.5 MM, page 67. as a doppleganger can be taken as a character race. Most creatures that can be taken as a race by players include the section : Creature as a player character)No, the Associated and Nonassociated class concepts apply to all races with 2 or more Racial HD. Monsters ith 1 racial HD are advanced purely as a character and their CR calculated accordingly. Monsters with 2 or more racial Hit Dice are advanced as shown below, whether they advance by character class or by HD.Advanced Monster Challenge Rating When adding class levels to a creature with 1 or less HD, you advance the creature like a character. Otherwise, use the following guidelines. Adding Class Levels If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities. When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Associated Class Levels Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1. Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability. Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage. A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. Nonassociated Class Levels If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated. Apologies to Devin, Rogue Princess :) I (and Ogmug too, I'm sure) want to make sure we're giving you the right advice.
Ogmug 09-30-05, 05:39 PM	Tell me, what associated class you would give a doppleganger. The associated classes are for monsters that do not have the player character block. example: Frost giants - They are not given a block on "Frost Giants as a Player character" and as such, should have the associated class applied (fighter in this case is thier associated class) Minotaurs however, do have a "mintaurs as characters" block, and as such, do not have an associated class. They do have a "favorite character" as barbarian. The example given in the MM shows how to properly advance a frost giant, with both a fighter class, and a wizard class (1/2 cr for wizard). This is prevalent throughout the MM. If it has a "XXXX as characters" you can advance it normally for character classes as per precedents The additional precedent is set by the code used in etools. This code is supposedly (note the supposedly, I am well aware of how bad code can be debugged and QA'd) reviewed with WOTC prior to release. Codemonkey publishing is the only character generator that I know of that is licensed and reveiwed by WotC.
eudas 09-30-05, 06:38 PM	the best thing i can recommend is just like any schoolwork: read it, and read it again, until it sinks in. go away a while, let it sink in some more, come back and read it again. eventually you'll understand it. eudas
Devin, The Rogue Princess 09-30-05, 06:43 PM	Apologies to Devin, Rogue Princess :) I (and Ogmug too, I'm sure) want to make sure we're giving you the right advice. No, I appreciate it! ^^ I can't say that I understand all of what you're saying, but I think I get the basics of it.
Ogmug 09-30-05, 06:55 PM	Basically we agree on principle, just not on implementation My POV: In the back of the monster manual, it details how to deal with advancing the CR of a monster when you add character classes. My view is if a monster has the "xxx as characters" block, it advances the CR as the character class (and you will note that the words "by character class" are also in the stat blocks of those types of creatures) Merestils POV (as I understand it) is that the MM says as i paraphrased above, but that it applies to EVERY creature over 2hd, period. As for how they work in the above example: Per DMG, you add the LA for the doppleganger (+4) to the hit dice for the doppleganger (also +4) and class levels (+1 in this case). This gives you a +9. This is the ECL (effective character level) of the creature. So, you would assume that the creature has 36,000 exp minimum. It needs 9000 exp to advance to 2nd level monk. You treat it as a 9th level character for exp (for determining how much it gets from the DMG exp tables. example. If this 1st level monk/doppleganger fought a CR2 monster, it would only get 225 exp, but a 1st level monk (normal pc) would get 600). Does this make it any better, or is it clear as mud?
Nom 09-30-05, 07:19 PM	For opponents, you should worry about CR not ECL/LA (as mentioned). The best way to think of LA are as "handicap" levels. They are not real levels and don't provide any benefit of real levels, but are assessed against the character as if they were levels when calculating XP gained or XP required to increase level. So a Doppleganger Mnk3 PC has character level 7 (4 monstrous humanoid (doppleganger) HD + 3 monk HD), with all effects and benefits thereof. However, when calculating XP (only), treat it as if it also had 4 extra levels (from LA +4). Thus, it earns XP as an 11th level character (ECL 11 = effective character level 11), and requires enough XP to reach level 12 (66,000 XP) before it can gain another level.
Ogmug 09-30-05, 07:26 PM	To further clarify: a doppleganger / monk3 is a multi classed character. It has 4 levels of monster (doppleganger) and 3 levels of monk (for determining monk abilities). The HD of this is 4d8 for doppleganger, and 3d8 for monk. the LA is for exp determination only as Nom stated.
Merestil Haye 09-30-05, 07:54 PM	My POV: In the back of the monster manual, it details how to deal with advancing the CR of a monster when you add character classes. My view is if a monster has the "xxx as characters" block, it advances the CR as the character class (and you will note that the words "by character class" are also in the stat blocks of those types of creatures) Merestils POV (as I understand it) is that the MM says as I paraphrased above, but that it applies to EVERY creature over 2hd, period.That pretty much summarises our relative positions, yes. You asked what classes are associated for a Doppelganger? Well considering the SRD has this to say about DoppelgangersDoppelgangers make excellent use of their natural mimicry to stage ambushes, bait traps, and infiltrate humanoid society. Although not usually evil, they are interested only in themselves and regard all others as playthings to be manipulated and deceived.I think I'd say that Doppelgangers are sneaky. So Ranger, Rogue. any class from Complete Adventurer are associated classes. Others are nonassociated - specifically including the Monk as an unassociated class. Devin : The basic difference between Ogmug's position and mine is that, if you follow Ogmug's line, you will award more xp for some monsters than if you followed mine. To take an example. Consider a Doppelganger Monk 6. What CR is he?Ogmug's position is that the Doppelganger is CR9. He takes the base CR of the Doppelganger and adds 1 for each monk level. My position is that the Doppelganger is CR7. This is because the Monk is an unassociated class for the Doppelganger, and therefore each level of Monk adds one half to the CR until the doppelganger has the same number of Monk levels as he does racial Hit Dice. Since he has 4 HD as a Doppelganger, that means the first four Monk levels count as only +0.5 CR each, and the last two count as +1 CR each. The CR is therefore 3 (Doppelganger) +2 (first four Monk levels) +2 (last two Monk levels).If you want this guy to be the BBEG, spending a bit of time statting him up now might be worth it. Then se how hard you think he would be for a party of 4 of a gicven level to fight, and decide for yourself which one of us gives better advice.