Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FreeTheSlaves 03-19-06, 06:49 AM	My paladin just levelled up to level 6 tonight & here are his rolls to date: 1st) 10 2nd) 6 3rd) 4 4th) 4 5th) 3 6th) 3 What do you'll reckon, could you accept these hp rolls?
Rivelstraz 03-19-06, 06:51 AM	It's below average, but don't worry, being a paladin, you should be fine. Don't let bad rolls have a bad influence over the feeling you should have for your character.
R2-DS 03-19-06, 10:53 AM	I see your dilema.......... Well on one hand you could devise a roleplaying aspect of your character to explain why he is not as resilient as a paladin might be. Like bad genetics. All the males in his family just werent physically imposing. On the other hand if its really bothering you. See if your DM will allow you to recalculate HP using the "average" method knowing that from here on in you will always be held to it. To answer your initial question.....yes I could live with those rolls.
Raven Dark 03-19-06, 11:40 AM	You'll be fine. Paladins are one of the better "defensive" classes. If it really worries you that much though, try and grab up the next Constitution enhancing item as fast as you can.
The Half-Orc Wizard 03-19-06, 12:00 PM	My DM let's us take half HP, rounded down, if we roll less then that. For instance, if we rolled a d10 and got 1-4, we would get a 5. Of course, it makes characters more powerful (but, I suppose we face slightly tougher challenges). It keeps players from feeling the way you do, that no matter how good their concept, build or strategies are, you have a permenant disadvantage. Plenty of DMs wouldn't like this rule, but i love it.
ShadowDragon8685 03-19-06, 12:20 PM	Bad HP rolls can really keep a player down. Especially since you seem to have rolled straight crap. Consult with your DM before taking drastic action. Remember, the dice are only supposed to be rolled for HP because it's "probable" they will come out to more-or-less certain values. However, at this point, he's currently... 10+(5.5*5) = 37.5 10 + 6 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 30 seven point five HP behind his average. It may not seem like much, but that 7 HP difference might well be the difference between unconcious and 4d6, drop the lowest, and repeat five more times. And if the trend of sub-average HP rolls continues... It's only going to get more exxagerated.
Ameture Expert 03-19-06, 12:32 PM	I say go with it. Weakness is a challenge, but I find challenge makes the game more exciting. Besides, maybe you'll roll better on your next few levels. My policy, "better to lose as a lousy character then to just give up on him."
Rhomphaia 03-19-06, 12:33 PM	See if your DM will institute a rule like mine into his games. When a character rolls for hit points, if the number comes out to less than the average roll (round down), then the character gets the average based on the table on page 198 of the DMG. Alternatively, for high-powered games, I use the following rule. When rolling for hit points, roll two hit die and take the average of the two rolls, round down. For example, a fighter rolls 2d10 and gets a 6 and a 9, resulting in an average of 7.5. The fighter would gain 7 hp for that level.
Helian 03-19-06, 12:33 PM	Well, first off, what is your CON? Also, is your paladin the main fighter of the group? If not, how many other fighter types? Is there a Cleric? These are all circumstances that your DM should take into account. If I was your DM and there is a fighter or barbarian that will/can take most of the punishment, I probably would not let you change anything. (yet) Also, if you have like 18 con, your rolls may be low but wont be that bad. And if there is a single class cleric, well even more unlikely I would make a change. Now that I said that, I will tell you why I as a DM wouldn't let you. The single and most important reason is this; Who is to say your next 5 lvls wont be 10,9,8,9,9?? And then the next 5 lvl after that??? If by 10th level your still suffering and the party is suffering, I'd make some changes. Not "ok take 20 extra hp", but send you on a quest because you found out someone in your past has cursed your family or something like that. Then give you hp based on an agreement we had beforehand, and the other party members would gain a class specific magic item that you of course wouldn't somehow receive. On the other hand, if your are the main fighter, and/or have a horrible CON, I might bump you up to at least all 5's with the understanding that you can't keep a 10 hp roll, it will become a 9 for as many times as you bumped to 5 (4x in your case) That way I wouldn't have a bad taste in my mouth if your ubered your next 8 of 10 hd rolls. But, thats just me as a dm.. you gotta talk to yours.
FreeTheSlaves 03-19-06, 02:52 PM	We already have a safety net rule of being allowed to reroll a reducing hd, i.e. d12 > d10 > d8 > d6 > d4 > d3 > d2. So the average is somewhere between .5 to 1.0 higher (30-32.5). So I expect to roll about 6hp per level from now on. The paladin had a 13 con which I increased at 4th level to 14, & that takes his hp to 42. He is the highest AC tank with the Barbarian1/Rogue5 having 45hps & the strength Cleric5 having 44hps (about to level). I feel I sort of have to handle these rolls given the safety net.
wonlee76 03-19-06, 03:16 PM	The rolls are fine in my opinion. Sure, you may have to play a bit more cautiously but that's the breaks of rolling for HP. Me, I use a similar rule as the Half-Orc Wizard mentioned. Roll dice, if its lower then 50% of what you could roll, you get 50%. (Min. 5 hp for paladin/fighter, minimum 4 for monk/cleric/ranger, minimum 3 for rogue/bard, etc.). If you rolled all 10s, I'm pretty certain you wouldn't volunteer to re-roll your hp because of your good luck. By the same token, rolling low (and in this case, its not horribly low in my opinion) doesn't seem to warrant a need to re-roll hp. In a few levels, you might be rolling 10s, 9s, and 8s which might offset your bad rolls that you have now. It all should balance out in the end.
ShadowDragon8685 03-19-06, 03:26 PM	"Should" "Probabilistically will" and "actually does" are two seperate things. And remember that this game is about the players having fun, not the NPCs having fun. Weaker-than-average HP characters are good for NPCs, but inherantly very bad for PCs.
Solidcobra 03-19-06, 03:47 PM	I usually go with max. Sometimes roll, half max being minimum. Just so you don't have to live with your barbarian having less HP than the rogue.
wonlee76 03-19-06, 04:15 PM	"Should" "Probabilistically will" and "actually does" are two seperate things. And remember that this game is about the players having fun, not the NPCs having fun. Weaker-than-average HP characters are good for NPCs, but inherantly very bad for PCs. Well, I follow the at least 50% HD rule as a DM because I agree with you, players don't like playing PCs with really crummy HP (though the wizard/sorceror is forced to live with it on that measly 1d4 he has to use). I don't agree with you that its "bad" to force a player to keep his HP roll that he made. It might be less fun but I don't think its inherently very bad to have a PC with slightly below average HP.
DrMorganes 03-19-06, 04:17 PM	Let me get this straight: you have 3 fewer HP than a PC with a 12-sided hit die, and you're complaining? Looks to me like you're right in line with the rest of your party. I see nothing to be concerned about.
20goingon1232 03-19-06, 05:20 PM	This is why my players get to roll 2 dice and take the higher number. They still end up needing every hps they've got (and a few they don't) in most fights of their CR-1... :weep:
FreeTheSlaves 03-20-06, 12:42 AM	The Rogue5/Barbarian1 had one d12 roll, & he got a 7, the remainder were d6's & his 16 con bonus. There isn't really much I can actually do because I agreed to this method when we made our characters up at level 4. To change my character would mean to change the others & I'd need unanimity, which won't happen. I guess I'm just wallowing a bit... He is already a cautious party spokesman type. He has combat expertise, ranks in concentration to drink potions on the defensive, & just got the Leadership feat. So I guess he's going to be more of a directing commander figure with modest personal reserves of fighting stamina. I think I'm going to have to treat him as a strong 5th level melee combatant rather than lording it on the battlefield.
Sianger 03-20-06, 12:58 AM	It depends also on the kind of campaign your DM is running. If (and it's a big "if") he's reasonable, then he'll either make you accept those rolls, but not throw damage monsters at you too often (if you're the primary tank), or he'll settle with you on some system of ensuring not-too-low hp. For instance, one of my campaigns now is fairly high-powered (not high level, just high power for our level). And we often face enemies 2-3 CRs higher than normal, and they're often damage machines - high attack and damage type. So, to give us a chance to survive, our DM lets us roll hp twice for each level, and take the higher one. If necessary yours should let you do the same.
FreeTheSlaves 03-20-06, 01:07 AM	The campaign is RttToEE, & it is a killer. :) My friend that's running it is a bit of a rookie so he is running it as is & sticking as close to core as possible. Once we come across giant types with *3 crit. weapons it is going to get real rough real quick. Our characters were rolled up using the organic method but I lobbied hard to upgrade it to 2d6+6 instead of the more variable 4d6. The reducing hd is a bit of a tradition. Other than the hps, my character is pretty buff with str17 dex13 con14(improved at 4th lvl) int14 wis15 cha16.
jasper 03-20-06, 08:42 AM	i used to allow max hp per level, then reroll until at halfway point. I finally at you get what you roll. It becomes very interesting on how low hp affects role playing. Ex. tough fighter at < 5 favorite tactic Charge! 5< x < 10 Stand in front of mage and shoot with my bow. 10th mage 30 hp. lighting bolt, lighting bolt, run away. As long you dm is fair. No harm no foul just stock up on healing potions.
babysamurai 03-20-06, 08:49 AM	This is why, as a player, I always take average.
FreeTheSlaves 03-20-06, 02:36 PM	This is why, as a player, I always take average. I lobbies hard to get this but no, I wasn't able... :( Otherwise I agree.
doctorofjournalism 03-20-06, 09:34 PM	my DM runs with a nice system. if you roll low, you can take her set minimum: d4 - 1 d6 - 2 d8 - 3 d10 - 4 d12 - 5 i think it keeps itself from being overpowered and helps people who always seem to roll crappy on hp
Aminar 03-20-06, 10:35 PM	My general area involves two players. Each rolls, but one roll is hidden. you then choose which roll you want. It leads to some fun HP gambling in character creation. Even with it my level 21 bounty hunter character has really low HP for his level. I think he'll die the first time he hit's combat.(He hasn't yet, but he accidentally started a war with an army of 15th level characters. (The people I play with heavily favor evil characters so the DM makes evreything higher levels so they can't kill everything and anything they want.)
trolloc 03-20-06, 10:45 PM	take Improved Toughness feat.
OravennasBrother 03-21-06, 11:09 AM	Short answer - YES. You might ask you DM if, before you roll you HP for next level, take the average (in 3.5 for a d10, that means 5 at even levels, 6 at odd levels) Even though many people house ruled maximum hit points at frst level, earlier editions did not GIVE maximum hit points at first level and COnstitutin bonus HP were far from assured, resulting in the occasional (OK I only saw one actually make it into play) Fighter with one HP. You have a survivable number of HP, you just need to be cautious about your battles.
SwiftFox 03-21-06, 12:05 PM	When I DM, I like to offer my players a choice when generating stats and HP... they can either roll a statline using the 4D6 drop lowest no rerolls method, or take a 28 points buy... they can either take the average HP/level, or roll. Potentially, theres gain to be made by taking a risk, but there are consequences to risk that can occasionally outway the benfits. Either way, I dont allow players to change their minds once they've chosen to roll and become dissatisfied with the results... thats part of the risk you take when rolling dice. As a player, I prefer to take the average HP/level, if the DM lets me... its safer and in my mind the far better option, because ive played characters where ive gotten low rolls for HP, and it sucks. Its less of a risk if you are a character with a small hit dice, or a high constitution, but I would never want to risk rolling a 1 for HPs on a character with a D10 hitdice, and being a paladin in particular with their multi ability dependance, it seems likely that your con would not nessesarily be your 1st or even 2nd highest stat. So, you could try asking your DM to let you take average HPs/level, and even make it retroactive... I know I wouldnt let you though, but then as Ive stated I give my players a choice beforehand and let them know theres no going back so maybe your DM will be more lenient.
Rhomphaia 03-21-06, 04:09 PM	I lobbies hard to get this but no, I wasn't able... :( Otherwise I agree. With your rolls, your DM really needs to start considering letting a player either roll or take the average. By my calculations, you are 7 hp behind average...at level six, this is an additional hit to take from baddies. This is around what you will have available for Lay on Hands (if you have a crumby Charisma). Like the wealth per level table and the 25 point standard point buy, monster CRs were calculated using characters of average hit points. You do not have average, you have below average and for a mainline melee character, that sucks. If your DM won't bend, I hope you are playing a -really- good paladin with a high Dexterity and that your DM allows you to take the Ranged Smite feat...but seeing his previous ruling on something that is in no way game breaking, I doubt he will throw you even that bone.
Bruunwald 03-21-06, 04:29 PM	My paladin just levelled up to level 6 tonight & here are his rolls to date: 1st) 10 2nd) 6 3rd) 4 4th) 4 5th) 3 6th) 3 What do you'll reckon, could you accept these hp rolls? Do you have a choice? Hopefully, you have a good Constitution score. Lemme tell you, accepting bad rolls is preferable to cheating them at all. We have a gnome wizard whose player flubbed a HD roll right in front of me (read: cheated, calling a 2 a 3) during character creation. Because he is known to do this sort of thing, I mentioned it to my other players who are in on this knowledge. We let it slide, of course. I don't make it a policy to tolerate cheating, but we need this guy's girlfriend in the game (long story). At the last session, the guy had the cajones to brag about how many hp his character has, considering he's a gnome wizard. The silence was deafening. I came this close to saying something profoundly injuring. The moral: If your character's gotta die, try to have him die with fairness, dignity and grace.
^Graff_EpsilonIX 03-21-06, 04:41 PM	Sounds like a good set of rolls that can be explained in your backstory.
evilviper77 03-21-06, 04:49 PM	The campaign is RttToEE, & it is a killer. :) So, you're running RttToEE w/o giving max hp per level, a +16 mod total to stats, and you only have 4 people in the party! Good grief, i would petition until i got atleast 2 of those things agreed on! Seriously though, RttToEE is a real <insert prefered word of disgust> and was made by one of the worlds worst sadists... Monte Cooke (who's favorite catch phrase is "Now roll or die!" right after sending a legion of balors at your 1st level party with mwk saps and symbol of pain scrolls). Our group of 5 pretty much gave up on it about the time we lost our 8th-10th character within around 6 sessions. Answering to your topic, yea those rolls suck but chances are you're going to die quick enough that you will just be able to re-roll them all soon enough =D (and hopefully have better rolls).
Bruunwald 03-21-06, 04:58 PM	See if your DM will institute a rule like mine into his games. When a character rolls for hit points, if the number comes out to less than the average roll (round down), then the character gets the average based on the table on page 198 of the DMG. We used to do something that was essentially the same with a 1 hp-every-other-level difference, and that was, roll and if your result is less than half the hit die, you still take at least half. In other words, roll d10, but take no less than 5. Let me tell you how quickly that breaks a game: about three levels. You said you play high-powered games, and that's good, because that's the only positive result you're going to get by using this method - if you're lucky. If you're not, then after a few lucky rolls and a number of levels taken at half for one or two players, plus Con mods, and several unlucky rolls for others, you'll probably end up like us: with a wide disparity between same-level fighters, and too much power for the lucky ones overall. We talking two fighters with over 90 hp at 10th level versus a third fighter of the same level with barely more than 60. That's why the DMG gives those average hp per level as only one point away, every other level, fixed. Adding the random element of rolling for half of that outcome is going to severely and permanently hurt the character whose player just happens to be a little less lucky that day.
Aegeu 03-21-06, 04:58 PM	Probably your best bet is to save up (and possibly sell anything you can do without) to buy an amulet of health. +2 costs 4,000 GC, so it's going to be tricky. If you're really wealthy, consider an Ioun Stone. Maybe you could borrow money off of your fellow PCs?
Raven Dark 03-21-06, 05:19 PM	Our group of 5 pretty much gave up on it about the time we lost our 8th-10th character within around 6 sessions. You too!? We lost a Dwarven Fighter to an Ogre Skeleton's greatclub. We lost another Dwarven Fighter to an exploding flour mill. - He made it out, but had caught on fire. He slowly burned to death over the course of three minutes despite the fact FOUR characers were trying to put him out. We lost an Elven Ranger to a cokatrice's petrification. We also lost our Elven Sorcerer to that infernal cockatrice. We lost a Half-Elf Ranger to an evil cultist. - Hold person plus a coup de grace was all it took. We lost the little Halfling Rogue to starvation. - She was the last survivor of the group, but a magical trap drained her strength to 1 and she was unable to escape the dungeon depths with such a condition. We lost a Human Cleric to a 200 foot drop. - He landed in a 2-inch deep pool of life-draining water. All that happened to us in the first 10 pages of a 100+ page module. To say the RttToEE is merely lethal is to undermine the evil genius behind the work. :rolleyes: I think we made it to page 25 or so before giving up. By that time we had EACH gone through at least 3 characters.
Whitewolfe 03-21-06, 05:28 PM	Well man, I say deal with it. I usually play character classes with a d6 or less so I have no symapthy for you. Try becoming the uber diplomat in your campaign and see how many combats you can avoid, that way crappy hp totals won't matter.
evilviper77 03-21-06, 06:06 PM	You too!? We lost a Dwarven Fighter to an Ogre Skeleton's greatclub. We lost another Dwarven Fighter to an exploding flour mill. - He made it out, but had caught on fire. He slowly burned to death over the course of three minutes despite the fact FOUR characers were trying to put him out. We lost an Elven Ranger to a cokatrice's petrification. We also lost our Elven Sorcerer to that infernal cockatrice. We lost a Half-Elf Ranger to an evil cultist. - Hold person plus a coup de grace was all it took. We lost the little Halfling Rogue to starvation. - She was the last survivor of the group, but a magical trap drained her strength to 1 and she was unable to escape the dungeon depths with such a condition. We lost a Human Cleric to a 200 foot drop. - He landed in a 2-inch deep pool of life-draining water. All that happened to us in the first 10 pages of a 100+ page module. To say the RttToEE is merely lethal is to undermine the evil genius behind the work. :rolleyes: I think we made it to page 25 or so before giving up. By that time we had EACH gone through at least 3 characters. Glad to see i'm not the only one, here is how our campaign went. Lets see... Lost 1 to dragon (almost 2), lost 2 to cocktrice, lost 2 to the altar under the moathouse (got lucky, was almost a TPK), lost 2 to the floating heads in nulb, lost 3 to the cleric in nulb (again, almost a TPK), lost 3 in the ToEE (you guessed it, another almost TPK), and lost 1 to basilik (this is where we decided to call it quit) Yup, monte cooke's favorite roll is the "save or die" roll. Plus he is probally a full fledged epic level character sadist. :D My best advice. Don't return to the temple of elemental evil!
FreeTheSlaves 03-22-06, 04:07 AM	:D, evilviper77 we've taken 1 death having cleaned the Moathouse, 1/2 of Nulb & the ToEE. The player brought in a new character but the rest of us have vowed to raise each other, & that's what we'll do. Ummm, I started to prepare to dm this adventure originally so I know the general plot & the 1st chapter quite well, but this doesn't matter because my character doesn't know. Aegeu, I've taken the Leadership feat so my cohort has Craft Wondrous Items for us to use. The way cohorts get xp means I can't plunder her xp too much but we'll definitely get some use from her feat. The bracers of health is 2nd on the list after a surcoat of resistance (non-slot +50% cost). We operate a full share party pool which is used for perishables & temporary top ups with corresponding IOU's. This allows for immediate magic item improvements for the most in need with the time limit of paying up before the next guy needs some. Ioun stone will have to wait until after the cloak of charisma, but that may be a smart buy... Raven Dark why did you not use Break Enchantment from Canoness Y'day on the petrified characters? It's only about 500gp? Monte taketh, but he also provideth. Heck our DM made the Ghost's hideous appearance permanent damage that required a full Restoration for each stat depleted, that cost us 6K over 2 battles & our characters failed their religious knowledge checks so they don't know that the ghost will return. We pinched the sword but the manifesting touch is far more lethal, being a touch attack to complement the deadly class ability... **** I think I've got my responses which condense something into 'Handle it & adapt', & I shall & maybe this guy might make it?