Counter-Balancing a 6-Armed Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Counter-Balancing a 6-Armed Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LosGunD
06-05-05, 01:24 PM I'm currently playing a nice campaign in which my character was given arms--Four new arms to be exact. The arms have cost me a good deal of gold and everything, and I've taken feats to minimize penalties, but I'm still overly powerful in comparison to my party members. :evillaugh Originally we considered taking the arms away, but, after the all the investments I have into them, that idea is hard to consider. 18 attacks per turn is nothing to laugh at. So we think that it would be benificial to find a way to counter-balance the arms. Make the other two party members my equal, rather than making me theirs, so to speak. We have a Mystic Theurge and a Psychic Warrior in the party that, until the arms, both possessed a distinct advantage over my character. Heck, I'm ECL 16 and can easily deal over 80 damage per full attack action. And that's without criticals at a 17-20 threat range. I have noticed, though, that damage reduction makes me comparatively useless. Maybe 25 damage, max. How could we make them more powerful without overcompensating for them?? :confused: 3.5 and some 3.0 books are all fair game. Splatbooks welcome. Maybe even third-party splatbooks. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Torack
06-05-05, 01:29 PM We'd need to know the exact class levels/feats of the classes involved.

Plus this belongs on the Character Optimization Boards. Contact a WizO to move the thread.
Flushmaster
06-05-05, 02:28 PM The Mystic Theurge should have the Practiced Caster feat if they don't already; it raises their effective caster level of one class by +4 (may not exceed HD) and will help greatly with smoothing out damage and spell penetration that is otherwise hampered by multiclassing as a caster.
StevenO
06-05-05, 03:35 PM Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats.

If that isn't enough to balance the Marilith the DM need to improve the opponents tactics so they never have to experience a full attack. I for one would rather risk a single AoO than stand next to that and risk four more attacks (at least) by giving it a full attack on me.
robertliguori
06-05-05, 04:16 PM Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats.

If that isn't enough to balance the Marilith the DM need to improve the opponents tactics so they never have to experience a full attack. I for one would rather risk a single AoO than stand next to that and risk four more attacks (at least) by giving it a full attack on me.

Er, have you looked at the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree? It more or less exactly is the two-weapon fighting tree. In fact, it says flat-out that it replaces it for multi-armed characters.
Jarric
06-05-05, 08:16 PM How did oyu end up adding 4 extra arms to your character in the first placE?
redkite
06-05-05, 10:16 PM Maybe your ref just needs to choose the correct adversaries.

At higher levels, more and more opponents have DR (or access to Stoneskin spell). Opponents with spring attack/fly-by attack, ranged combat specialists (including long range spellcasters and flying dragons with breath weapons), big grapplers/trip attacks, high AC's (you get minuses to-hit for those multiple attacks), psionic opponents (mind flayer), etc all serve to equalize the battle on all accounts. And have your enemies play the tactics - never go toe-to-toe with a 6 armed opponent, as mentioned earlier.
Vaelan
06-06-05, 03:50 AM Are those other two characters ECL 16 as well?

Neither of them should have any added ECL from their race or templates, since they're casting/manifesting classes.

Some more specific information would be helpful.
LosGunD
06-06-05, 10:42 AM I think, as a drow, they're more afraid of me attacking them than being outclassed by me :evillaugh . And as a Drow fighter with 20 intelligence, not to mention a very good hide/move silently skill, they don't know where I may be coming from or what I maybe plotting. This could all be remedied fairly easily, I think. I would just need to do a few things that I don't quite want to... :noway:
Lusiphur
06-06-05, 03:39 PM If it is unbalancing the campaign that much, i hate to say it, but you might have to give them up. Any good player should be able to recognize when hes unbalancing the campaign. Now i dont know the specificities, so ill have to make assumptions. In my experiences, if you try to "balance" things by making everyone uber-powerful, youll only end up unbalancing it further.

Now im not a fan of just taking something away because its too powerful, but unfortunately, sometimes DMs make mistakes. You should talk to your DM in private about it and figure out a fix. You could, for instance, have your arms ripped off by a large muscly creature lol. That solves the problem right there. Now youve said that youve invested a lot of money in them, so maybe your DM could give you some compensation. Maybe a "random" treasure that suits your character perfectly or something. Im sure he'll be willing to work something out with you, especially if you are big enough to come to him and say "Hey, i know my character is unbalancing the party, and this makes it difficult for everyone, especially you. Lets figure something out."

That's probably your best option.
LosGunD
06-06-05, 03:53 PM The solution that's the easiest would be to take them away, but I can't exactly say why with some of the other players on the board (spoils story line). But that's not quite as fun as, say making the Theurge into a Lich. That is a fairly dramatic solution to the issue. We could also grab some templates from the savage species book. Without spoiling anything for either of the players passing here, level adjustments will be easy to counterbalance. I think I've finished up and decided how I want to approach the issue.
Phrennzy
06-06-05, 05:06 PM Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats.

Let me get my gun...
snowlynx
06-06-05, 07:04 PM Easiest solution for me, as a DM, would be to say, 'since you're now so much more powerful due to some weird thing that is like a racial trait (extra arms) I will count it as a level adjustment.' If I wanted the other players to be equal in power, I suppose I'd offer them templates too :)
I am a little confused about how extra arms actually give you extra attacks, unless they have claws or some other natural weapon.
StevenO
06-06-05, 07:38 PM Er, have you looked at the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree? It more or less exactly is the two-weapon fighting tree. In fact, it says flat-out that it replaces it for multi-armed characters.

What 3.5 book(s) is improved multiweapon fighting and its kin located in? The three Core Books (MM specifically) do include the basic Multiweapon fighting (reduced penalties) as a replacement for Two-weapon fighting but do NOT include improved and greater versions (those that grant extra attacks.) Admittedly the improved versions may be in later splatbooks but were likely left out of the core books to keep the craziness of multi-limbed creatures making multiple attacks with each limb to a minimum. Rolling 24 attacks for a six-armed creature with BAB +20 is a little much.

Note to Phrennzy: You'd do better to get the ax and hack off the limb instead.
krichaiushii
06-06-05, 07:56 PM Note to Phrennzy: You'd do better to get the ax and hack off the limb instead.

It's a trick! Get an axe.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe
06-06-05, 11:22 PM I have the easiest solution for you. Scrap your current player, slap your DM for letting you play something like that when he can't handle it, and finally slap yourself for being a munchkin. Thank you, and good night. ;)
feartheinvinceblehamster
06-07-05, 05:30 PM give them arms...
LosGunD
06-07-05, 08:19 PM First order of business-if either of my fellow party-members are reading I will kindly request that you read no further so that you don't spoil anything for yourselves, and everyone else is welcome to read my final changes and plans to have fixed all these problems before they happened.

Onto business. I never said anything about 3.5. 3.0, for my DM is the most easily accessible book set, and in 3.0 improved and greater multiweapon fighting exist. In fact, Perfect Multiweapon Fighting is not too far off. My DM and I have decided (based on the way things worked so far) that the easiest solution is to switch to me having the insectile template (and not just extra arms without much rhyme or reason). I heard that City of the Spider Queen had an Arachnoid Template, but I don't have that. (An 8-armed Drow spider-like assassin was what I was going for with the arms. I thought it would be cool and my DM wants interesting NPCs) I thought my and my fellow players would think enough to move in their turn while fighting "me", but obviously not. This would have definitely made the fight with them much more difficult for me. One of my friends got it into his head to gamble his life and everything he possessed on one attack (he knew he wouldn't survive another full set of attacks from me) and failed miserably. I was definitely disappointed that he didn't fight cautiously (his character was to smart ot throw everything he had into one hit) and, of course, he died. Then my other friend turned "me" to stone because I rolled a four on my save. Any higher would have been successful. I was dissapointed there because he stood right next to me. Fortunately for them he got lucky. So now "I" am a statue of a six-armed Drow. But the beauty of it (and if either of my fellow party members is still reading they'll die by my six hands :evillaugh ) is that it's not quite me and hasn't been me for a long while. I've been captured by the arch-villain of the campaign. So they've worked on their own for two or three levels to make up for the level adjustment of an insectile template (which was gained by a spider bite from a spider near an altar to Lolth) and all should be perfectly fine. Based on the story as it has unfolded, these changes will be extremely easy to put into place. This, in fact, makes even more sense than the previous way things have worked. I suppose you could say the last part of the story that unfolded in which "I" attack my fellow party-members was a good test of the arms and their balance as we had them before. Clearly, either my DM is a genius and good at hiding it, or we're both quite fortunate. My DM and I will probably work everything out soon and he's already approved this plan as I've told it. There will probably be some finalizing involved, but that's perfectly fine with me. :)
Megrim_Lord
06-07-05, 08:22 PM I have the easiest solution for you. Scrap your current player, slap your DM for letting you play something like that when he can't handle it, and finally slap yourself for being a munchkin. Thank you, and good night. ;)

first of all he isn't a munchkin

second, no offense but your party seems pretty bad if they're ECL 16 and they can't hit over 100 damage in one shot at least every other round each and deserve to get squashed.

what is your character exactly? and what are the MT's and PsyWar's builds? by that I mean how do they operate, tactics, favored spells, damage dealing mechanisms etc?
LosGunD
06-08-05, 12:14 AM Yeah, they haven't really purchased any kind of magic weaponry. I didn't and told them so because I didn't want to be overpowering with the arms. The DM generally doesn't give out items, he just gives large supplies of gold. This, of course, has the flaw that stealing from a person who's asleep four hours longer than you is painfully easy. Not that it happens often. I give him plenty of time to spend it before I steal it. The worst part is he hasn't really questioned the fact that he keeps losing money. I can't help it if Drow are inherently greedy and he sets up no protection from people with a high sleight of hand skill :evillaugh . After the second time of returning to find a sum of gold missing you would think he would... I'll teach him the hard way or not at all! He's too much of a turtle. He builds his offense around having one some time later when he's gotten enough money to buy "that one item". I think he should probably figure find some balance. Or fix the holes in his defense. I personally prefer the balance, but defense will work if he can get it right. And that's what he prefers, so he can go for it. He can do plenty of damage, just not every turn. And as a psionic character that ability lasts only a short while. The Mystic Theurge I've never seen use a metamagic spell of any kind, which would definitely help. Those are their main problems, without seeing their character sheets. They're probably going to pass me up power-wise pretty easily though with the two levels they gain, as caster classes (unless the insectile template is more powerful than I remember)
kam_Islash
06-08-05, 12:29 AM So YOU were that Male Marlilith we fought last week!

///

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LosGunD 06-05-05, 01:24 PM	I'm currently playing a nice campaign in which my character was given arms--Four new arms to be exact. The arms have cost me a good deal of gold and everything, and I've taken feats to minimize penalties, but I'm still overly powerful in comparison to my party members. :evillaugh Originally we considered taking the arms away, but, after the all the investments I have into them, that idea is hard to consider. 18 attacks per turn is nothing to laugh at. So we think that it would be benificial to find a way to counter-balance the arms. Make the other two party members my equal, rather than making me theirs, so to speak. We have a Mystic Theurge and a Psychic Warrior in the party that, until the arms, both possessed a distinct advantage over my character. Heck, I'm ECL 16 and can easily deal over 80 damage per full attack action. And that's without criticals at a 17-20 threat range. I have noticed, though, that damage reduction makes me comparatively useless. Maybe 25 damage, max. How could we make them more powerful without overcompensating for them?? :confused: 3.5 and some 3.0 books are all fair game. Splatbooks welcome. Maybe even third-party splatbooks. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Torack 06-05-05, 01:29 PM	We'd need to know the exact class levels/feats of the classes involved. Plus this belongs on the Character Optimization Boards. Contact a WizO to move the thread.
Flushmaster 06-05-05, 02:28 PM	The Mystic Theurge should have the Practiced Caster feat if they don't already; it raises their effective caster level of one class by +4 (may not exceed HD) and will help greatly with smoothing out damage and spell penetration that is otherwise hampered by multiclassing as a caster.
StevenO 06-05-05, 03:35 PM	Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats. If that isn't enough to balance the Marilith the DM need to improve the opponents tactics so they never have to experience a full attack. I for one would rather risk a single AoO than stand next to that and risk four more attacks (at least) by giving it a full attack on me.
robertliguori 06-05-05, 04:16 PM	Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats. If that isn't enough to balance the Marilith the DM need to improve the opponents tactics so they never have to experience a full attack. I for one would rather risk a single AoO than stand next to that and risk four more attacks (at least) by giving it a full attack on me. Er, have you looked at the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree? It more or less exactly is the two-weapon fighting tree. In fact, it says flat-out that it replaces it for multi-armed characters.
Jarric 06-05-05, 08:16 PM	How did oyu end up adding 4 extra arms to your character in the first placE?
redkite 06-05-05, 10:16 PM	Maybe your ref just needs to choose the correct adversaries. At higher levels, more and more opponents have DR (or access to Stoneskin spell). Opponents with spring attack/fly-by attack, ranged combat specialists (including long range spellcasters and flying dragons with breath weapons), big grapplers/trip attacks, high AC's (you get minuses to-hit for those multiple attacks), psionic opponents (mind flayer), etc all serve to equalize the battle on all accounts. And have your enemies play the tactics - never go toe-to-toe with a 6 armed opponent, as mentioned earlier.
Vaelan 06-06-05, 03:50 AM	Are those other two characters ECL 16 as well? Neither of them should have any added ECL from their race or templates, since they're casting/manifesting classes. Some more specific information would be helpful.
LosGunD 06-06-05, 10:42 AM	I think, as a drow, they're more afraid of me attacking them than being outclassed by me :evillaugh . And as a Drow fighter with 20 intelligence, not to mention a very good hide/move silently skill, they don't know where I may be coming from or what I maybe plotting. This could all be remedied fairly easily, I think. I would just need to do a few things that I don't quite want to... :noway:
Lusiphur 06-06-05, 03:39 PM	If it is unbalancing the campaign that much, i hate to say it, but you might have to give them up. Any good player should be able to recognize when hes unbalancing the campaign. Now i dont know the specificities, so ill have to make assumptions. In my experiences, if you try to "balance" things by making everyone uber-powerful, youll only end up unbalancing it further. Now im not a fan of just taking something away because its too powerful, but unfortunately, sometimes DMs make mistakes. You should talk to your DM in private about it and figure out a fix. You could, for instance, have your arms ripped off by a large muscly creature lol. That solves the problem right there. Now youve said that youve invested a lot of money in them, so maybe your DM could give you some compensation. Maybe a "random" treasure that suits your character perfectly or something. Im sure he'll be willing to work something out with you, especially if you are big enough to come to him and say "Hey, i know my character is unbalancing the party, and this makes it difficult for everyone, especially you. Lets figure something out." That's probably your best option.
LosGunD 06-06-05, 03:53 PM	The solution that's the easiest would be to take them away, but I can't exactly say why with some of the other players on the board (spoils story line). But that's not quite as fun as, say making the Theurge into a Lich. That is a fairly dramatic solution to the issue. We could also grab some templates from the savage species book. Without spoiling anything for either of the players passing here, level adjustments will be easy to counterbalance. I think I've finished up and decided how I want to approach the issue.
Phrennzy 06-06-05, 05:06 PM	Since you haven't posted your actual build I'm going out on a limb and say your 18 attacks come by way of three per arm. For starters don't equate the improved two-weapon fighting feat tree to multi-armed fighting. That should cut the number of attacks possible in half. I'd allow improved two-weapon fighting to apply to a second hand but allowing more hands to gain multiple attacks should require more feats. Let me get my gun...
snowlynx 06-06-05, 07:04 PM	Easiest solution for me, as a DM, would be to say, 'since you're now so much more powerful due to some weird thing that is like a racial trait (extra arms) I will count it as a level adjustment.' If I wanted the other players to be equal in power, I suppose I'd offer them templates too :) I am a little confused about how extra arms actually give you extra attacks, unless they have claws or some other natural weapon.
StevenO 06-06-05, 07:38 PM	Er, have you looked at the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree? It more or less exactly is the two-weapon fighting tree. In fact, it says flat-out that it replaces it for multi-armed characters. What 3.5 book(s) is improved multiweapon fighting and its kin located in? The three Core Books (MM specifically) do include the basic Multiweapon fighting (reduced penalties) as a replacement for Two-weapon fighting but do NOT include improved and greater versions (those that grant extra attacks.) Admittedly the improved versions may be in later splatbooks but were likely left out of the core books to keep the craziness of multi-limbed creatures making multiple attacks with each limb to a minimum. Rolling 24 attacks for a six-armed creature with BAB +20 is a little much. Note to Phrennzy: You'd do better to get the ax and hack off the limb instead.
krichaiushii 06-06-05, 07:56 PM	Note to Phrennzy: You'd do better to get the ax and hack off the limb instead. It's a trick! Get an axe.
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 06-06-05, 11:22 PM	I have the easiest solution for you. Scrap your current player, slap your DM for letting you play something like that when he can't handle it, and finally slap yourself for being a munchkin. Thank you, and good night. ;)
feartheinvinceblehamster 06-07-05, 05:30 PM	give them arms...
LosGunD 06-07-05, 08:19 PM	First order of business-if either of my fellow party-members are reading I will kindly request that you read no further so that you don't spoil anything for yourselves, and everyone else is welcome to read my final changes and plans to have fixed all these problems before they happened. Onto business. I never said anything about 3.5. 3.0, for my DM is the most easily accessible book set, and in 3.0 improved and greater multiweapon fighting exist. In fact, Perfect Multiweapon Fighting is not too far off. My DM and I have decided (based on the way things worked so far) that the easiest solution is to switch to me having the insectile template (and not just extra arms without much rhyme or reason). I heard that City of the Spider Queen had an Arachnoid Template, but I don't have that. (An 8-armed Drow spider-like assassin was what I was going for with the arms. I thought it would be cool and my DM wants interesting NPCs) I thought my and my fellow players would think enough to move in their turn while fighting "me", but obviously not. This would have definitely made the fight with them much more difficult for me. One of my friends got it into his head to gamble his life and everything he possessed on one attack (he knew he wouldn't survive another full set of attacks from me) and failed miserably. I was definitely disappointed that he didn't fight cautiously (his character was to smart ot throw everything he had into one hit) and, of course, he died. Then my other friend turned "me" to stone because I rolled a four on my save. Any higher would have been successful. I was dissapointed there because he stood right next to me. Fortunately for them he got lucky. So now "I" am a statue of a six-armed Drow. But the beauty of it (and if either of my fellow party members is still reading they'll die by my six hands :evillaugh ) is that it's not quite me and hasn't been me for a long while. I've been captured by the arch-villain of the campaign. So they've worked on their own for two or three levels to make up for the level adjustment of an insectile template (which was gained by a spider bite from a spider near an altar to Lolth) and all should be perfectly fine. Based on the story as it has unfolded, these changes will be extremely easy to put into place. This, in fact, makes even more sense than the previous way things have worked. I suppose you could say the last part of the story that unfolded in which "I" attack my fellow party-members was a good test of the arms and their balance as we had them before. Clearly, either my DM is a genius and good at hiding it, or we're both quite fortunate. My DM and I will probably work everything out soon and he's already approved this plan as I've told it. There will probably be some finalizing involved, but that's perfectly fine with me. :)
Megrim_Lord 06-07-05, 08:22 PM	I have the easiest solution for you. Scrap your current player, slap your DM for letting you play something like that when he can't handle it, and finally slap yourself for being a munchkin. Thank you, and good night. ;) first of all he isn't a munchkin second, no offense but your party seems pretty bad if they're ECL 16 and they can't hit over 100 damage in one shot at least every other round each and deserve to get squashed. what is your character exactly? and what are the MT's and PsyWar's builds? by that I mean how do they operate, tactics, favored spells, damage dealing mechanisms etc?
LosGunD 06-08-05, 12:14 AM	Yeah, they haven't really purchased any kind of magic weaponry. I didn't and told them so because I didn't want to be overpowering with the arms. The DM generally doesn't give out items, he just gives large supplies of gold. This, of course, has the flaw that stealing from a person who's asleep four hours longer than you is painfully easy. Not that it happens often. I give him plenty of time to spend it before I steal it. The worst part is he hasn't really questioned the fact that he keeps losing money. I can't help it if Drow are inherently greedy and he sets up no protection from people with a high sleight of hand skill :evillaugh . After the second time of returning to find a sum of gold missing you would think he would... I'll teach him the hard way or not at all! He's too much of a turtle. He builds his offense around having one some time later when he's gotten enough money to buy "that one item". I think he should probably figure find some balance. Or fix the holes in his defense. I personally prefer the balance, but defense will work if he can get it right. And that's what he prefers, so he can go for it. He can do plenty of damage, just not every turn. And as a psionic character that ability lasts only a short while. The Mystic Theurge I've never seen use a metamagic spell of any kind, which would definitely help. Those are their main problems, without seeing their character sheets. They're probably going to pass me up power-wise pretty easily though with the two levels they gain, as caster classes (unless the insectile template is more powerful than I remember)
kam_Islash 06-08-05, 12:29 AM	So YOU were that Male Marlilith we fought last week! ///