Coup de Grace question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rodgrin
07-05-06, 10:38 AM I am in this situation...a group of us are fighting some evil npcs...they have 2 of our group prisoner and they are tied up, so they are bound. Since we were kicking their butts, the npcs decided to grab the prisoners and told us to give up or they would kill the prisoners (start a coup de grace). Are there any rules out there that state what happens if you attack someone who's holding someone else in order to do a coup de grace? Does the instigator lose his Dex bonus to AC since they are holding the bound person? Anything at all would be a help.

Thanks!
CantripN
07-05-06, 10:48 AM They are in agrapply, so you can easily hit them. You do, however, risk hitting your friends. You can try an opposed grapple check to free the guys or pin the other guy.
Millennium
07-05-06, 10:55 AM Also, keep in mind that performing a CdG provokes an attack of opportunity: the victim doesn't get to take one since he's helpless, but onlookers (such as unbound party members) certainly can. If you're confident that you can interrupt the full-round action, then you've got a fighting chance.

This is why you don't CdG unless you've first taken care of anyone who might get in your way.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-05-06, 08:00 PM I am in this situation...a group of us are fighting some evil npcs...they have 2 of our group prisoner and they are tied up, so they are bound. Since we were kicking their butts, the npcs decided to grab the prisoners and told us to give up or they would kill the prisoners (start a coup de grace). Are there any rules out there that state what happens if you attack someone who's holding someone else in order to do a coup de grace? Does the instigator lose his Dex bonus to AC since they are holding the bound person? Anything at all would be a help.Nothing in the core rules say anything about how you have to hold a person or grapple a person to coup de grace.

The rules merely state that you have to use a melee weapon (including reach weapons) or be adjacent to them with a bow or crossbow. So, it seems safe to assume that they don't have to be holding the intended victim as far as the rules are concerned.

Coup de grace provokes an AoO and nothing more. In other words you have one chance to keep them from killing the other party members, either by killing them first, disarming them successfully, bull-rushing them away from the intended victim, or possibly freeing the intended victim.
ravenspawn
07-05-06, 10:30 PM I've had this situation happen in my game once. I had to improvise a ruling on the spot but thought about it afterwards and made a house rule that I make a point of telling all my players.

In my game what happened was that the Fighter (Vola, female half-orc) failed her save vs Hold Person while the rest of the group was busy. The drider who cast the spell then used its action to move & place a dagger to Vola's throat and tell the other PC's to drop their weapons & stop all hostilities. The group cleric's player thought he should be able to cast a spell before the drider could carry out her threat since a CdG takes a full round action but i disagreed as she had already taken action in the previous round. I made a ruling and we moved on, but by the next session i made an official ruling in case it happens again/

:teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike.
tharivol266
07-05-06, 10:40 PM id say id let the ready a CdG if they took a full round to do it and are right next to them no take 5' step and CdG
Some_call_me_Tim
07-06-06, 11:26 AM :teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike.There really is no reason to house-rule this; the rules already support this kind of situation. You can move to the victim then as a standard action, "start full-round action" in the first round, and when your action comes up in the second round, ready "complete full-round action" with the proper trigger. Anytime after that when the action is triggered it's curtains for the victim.
meatpuppet
07-06-06, 11:53 AM :teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike. I use the same houserule except that "placing the weapon to a vital spot" also provokes AoO (but not from the target).
Juzzman
07-06-06, 07:37 PM I have to say i disagree with the above.
Coup de Grace is a full round action (unless you have a feat to make it faster)
Ready lets you ready a standard action, a move action or a free action, but always uses up a standard action.

If you move to the helpless person and hold a dagger at their throat, and threaten to cut their throat if the party doesnt drop their weapons, you are effectively taking a move action (and can draw the dagger as part of that action) and then taking a standard action to ready an attack at the helpless person. Not a coup de grace.

If you are going to cheese the rules, and say that you are starting a CDG but readying the second half of a cdg, since it is a full round action everyone else gets a go before the coup de grace is done, plus anyone in aoo range when the ready is triggered gets their aoo.

An extreme example...Would you let a player move up to the bbeg,(Move action) have one attack (First part of his full round action), then Ready the rest of his full round of attacks for when the bbeg tries to move?(rest of his full round action)? didnt think so.

I am fairly sparing with CDG with my bad guys, it's almost always going to be used when the BBEG has the upper hand, and has the time to finish a CDG before the players can easily take him out(and this fact would be obvious)

But at the end of the day, if you players are not rules lawyers and it suits the story, go ahead and do it. I wouldnt, but i'm not the DM of you :-)

Juz
meatpuppet
07-07-06, 09:34 AM From the srd
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Juzzman
07-07-06, 06:43 PM i stand corrected. It is allowable by the srd (i couldnt see it in my books anywhere), but it still means what was proposed is untenable.

BBG moves to helpless player while drawing a weapon (move action), and then starts a coup de grace (standard action) and threatening the party (free action). Completing the CDG or readying to complete the CDG is a standard action, but since the BBG has already had a move and standard it will have to wait till his next turn.

Any way you play it, the rules dont allow you to run up to someone, threaten to kill them , start a CDG and then ready the finish of the CDG all in one round. Of course, if the players pause for a moment at the threat (doing nothing for that round), and the bbeg's turn comes round again, then his bluff worked and he's in business :devil:
Some_call_me_Tim
07-07-06, 06:59 PM BBG moves to helpless player while drawing a weapon (move action), and then starts a coup de grace (standard action) and threatening the party (free action). Completing the CDG or readying to complete the CDG is a standard action, but since the BBG has already had a move and standard it will have to wait till his next turn.Yes, this does require two rounds to complete, the ideal method of imployment is begin coup de grace in round one; ready to finish coup de grace in round two, then threaten the party. The risk is much greater as it only takes the trigger to finish the coup de grace of the victim.

Still the threat is credible even if the party has one round to act. How sure is the party that they will be able to off the enemy in a single round? You willing to risk a party member's life on that?
ravenspawn
07-08-06, 12:23 PM Of course i don't allow the bad guy to finish the CdG out of turn. The bad guy would take a ready action on his turn, so that some PC might be able to intervene.

I came up with this house rule when 3.0 came out & I hadn't read anything in the srd at the time.

I just didn't want the players to disregard the threat of someone who took time to set up the CdG. I truly don't think it takes a full round to just slit a throat or (like in real life) pull the trigger of a gun (if playing d20 Modern).
meatpuppet
07-08-06, 01:05 PM If it can be of some help, I fished this out of my Houserule sheet...
Readied Coup de Grace: This could also be called the “Knife to the throat” or the "Crossbow to the head". This option uses the “Start full-round action” Standard Action (PH p142). Basically it takes two rounds to do a readied Coup the Grace. First, you use a Standard Action to start the Coup de Grace (like for instance, placing your knife to the throat of a helpless victim) this action provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents (but not from your target), then on the following round, you can finish the Coup de grace by using another Standard Action, or you can Ready this action instead, delivering the fatal blow when you see fit. Finishing a Coup de grace in this matter exceptionally provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents (but not from your target).
Rodgrin
07-12-06, 11:55 AM Hey guys, thanks for the replies. You rock! My game is coming up this Thursday and I wanted to have some options ready to argue with the DM :devil:

I think our group will be in the clear, and we'll be able to take out the BBGs before they pull off their CdG. Especially since my character is only 5 foot step from the first one. I'll keep you posted as to what my DM decides and if we made it happen.

Thanks again!

Rodgrin

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rodgrin 07-05-06, 10:38 AM	I am in this situation...a group of us are fighting some evil npcs...they have 2 of our group prisoner and they are tied up, so they are bound. Since we were kicking their butts, the npcs decided to grab the prisoners and told us to give up or they would kill the prisoners (start a coup de grace). Are there any rules out there that state what happens if you attack someone who's holding someone else in order to do a coup de grace? Does the instigator lose his Dex bonus to AC since they are holding the bound person? Anything at all would be a help. Thanks!
CantripN 07-05-06, 10:48 AM	They are in agrapply, so you can easily hit them. You do, however, risk hitting your friends. You can try an opposed grapple check to free the guys or pin the other guy.
Millennium 07-05-06, 10:55 AM	Also, keep in mind that performing a CdG provokes an attack of opportunity: the victim doesn't get to take one since he's helpless, but onlookers (such as unbound party members) certainly can. If you're confident that you can interrupt the full-round action, then you've got a fighting chance. This is why you don't CdG unless you've first taken care of anyone who might get in your way.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-05-06, 08:00 PM	I am in this situation...a group of us are fighting some evil npcs...they have 2 of our group prisoner and they are tied up, so they are bound. Since we were kicking their butts, the npcs decided to grab the prisoners and told us to give up or they would kill the prisoners (start a coup de grace). Are there any rules out there that state what happens if you attack someone who's holding someone else in order to do a coup de grace? Does the instigator lose his Dex bonus to AC since they are holding the bound person? Anything at all would be a help.Nothing in the core rules say anything about how you have to hold a person or grapple a person to coup de grace. The rules merely state that you have to use a melee weapon (including reach weapons) or be adjacent to them with a bow or crossbow. So, it seems safe to assume that they don't have to be holding the intended victim as far as the rules are concerned. Coup de grace provokes an AoO and nothing more. In other words you have one chance to keep them from killing the other party members, either by killing them first, disarming them successfully, bull-rushing them away from the intended victim, or possibly freeing the intended victim.
ravenspawn 07-05-06, 10:30 PM	I've had this situation happen in my game once. I had to improvise a ruling on the spot but thought about it afterwards and made a house rule that I make a point of telling all my players. In my game what happened was that the Fighter (Vola, female half-orc) failed her save vs Hold Person while the rest of the group was busy. The drider who cast the spell then used its action to move & place a dagger to Vola's throat and tell the other PC's to drop their weapons & stop all hostilities. The group cleric's player thought he should be able to cast a spell before the drider could carry out her threat since a CdG takes a full round action but i disagreed as she had already taken action in the previous round. I made a ruling and we moved on, but by the next session i made an official ruling in case it happens again/ :teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike.
tharivol266 07-05-06, 10:40 PM	id say id let the ready a CdG if they took a full round to do it and are right next to them no take 5' step and CdG
Some_call_me_Tim 07-06-06, 11:26 AM	:teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike.There really is no reason to house-rule this; the rules already support this kind of situation. You can move to the victim then as a standard action, "start full-round action" in the first round, and when your action comes up in the second round, ready "complete full-round action" with the proper trigger. Anytime after that when the action is triggered it's curtains for the victim.
meatpuppet 07-06-06, 11:53 AM	:teach: My house rule is : If someone takes an action to move to a victim (ideally helpless in some way) and place a weapon to a vital spot, then he can declare a ready action to compleat the Coup-de-Grace on his next turn so if any allies twitch the wrong way. :evillaugh No AoO unless someone is right next to him. I make sure my players know this applies to PC's and NPc's alike. I use the same houserule except that "placing the weapon to a vital spot" also provokes AoO (but not from the target).
Juzzman 07-06-06, 07:37 PM	I have to say i disagree with the above. Coup de Grace is a full round action (unless you have a feat to make it faster) Ready lets you ready a standard action, a move action or a free action, but always uses up a standard action. If you move to the helpless person and hold a dagger at their throat, and threaten to cut their throat if the party doesnt drop their weapons, you are effectively taking a move action (and can draw the dagger as part of that action) and then taking a standard action to ready an attack at the helpless person. Not a coup de grace. If you are going to cheese the rules, and say that you are starting a CDG but readying the second half of a cdg, since it is a full round action everyone else gets a go before the coup de grace is done, plus anyone in aoo range when the ready is triggered gets their aoo. An extreme example...Would you let a player move up to the bbeg,(Move action) have one attack (First part of his full round action), then Ready the rest of his full round of attacks for when the bbeg tries to move?(rest of his full round action)? didnt think so. I am fairly sparing with CDG with my bad guys, it's almost always going to be used when the BBEG has the upper hand, and has the time to finish a CDG before the players can easily take him out(and this fact would be obvious) But at the end of the day, if you players are not rules lawyers and it suits the story, go ahead and do it. I wouldnt, but i'm not the DM of you :-) Juz
meatpuppet 07-07-06, 09:34 AM	From the srd Start/Complete Full-Round Action The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Juzzman 07-07-06, 06:43 PM	i stand corrected. It is allowable by the srd (i couldnt see it in my books anywhere), but it still means what was proposed is untenable. BBG moves to helpless player while drawing a weapon (move action), and then starts a coup de grace (standard action) and threatening the party (free action). Completing the CDG or readying to complete the CDG is a standard action, but since the BBG has already had a move and standard it will have to wait till his next turn. Any way you play it, the rules dont allow you to run up to someone, threaten to kill them , start a CDG and then ready the finish of the CDG all in one round. Of course, if the players pause for a moment at the threat (doing nothing for that round), and the bbeg's turn comes round again, then his bluff worked and he's in business :devil:
Some_call_me_Tim 07-07-06, 06:59 PM	BBG moves to helpless player while drawing a weapon (move action), and then starts a coup de grace (standard action) and threatening the party (free action). Completing the CDG or readying to complete the CDG is a standard action, but since the BBG has already had a move and standard it will have to wait till his next turn.Yes, this does require two rounds to complete, the ideal method of imployment is begin coup de grace in round one; ready to finish coup de grace in round two, then threaten the party. The risk is much greater as it only takes the trigger to finish the coup de grace of the victim. Still the threat is credible even if the party has one round to act. How sure is the party that they will be able to off the enemy in a single round? You willing to risk a party member's life on that?
ravenspawn 07-08-06, 12:23 PM	Of course i don't allow the bad guy to finish the CdG out of turn. The bad guy would take a ready action on his turn, so that some PC might be able to intervene. I came up with this house rule when 3.0 came out & I hadn't read anything in the srd at the time. I just didn't want the players to disregard the threat of someone who took time to set up the CdG. I truly don't think it takes a full round to just slit a throat or (like in real life) pull the trigger of a gun (if playing d20 Modern).
meatpuppet 07-08-06, 01:05 PM	If it can be of some help, I fished this out of my Houserule sheet... Readied Coup de Grace: This could also be called the “Knife to the throat” or the "Crossbow to the head". This option uses the “Start full-round action” Standard Action (PH p142). Basically it takes two rounds to do a readied Coup the Grace. First, you use a Standard Action to start the Coup de Grace (like for instance, placing your knife to the throat of a helpless victim) this action provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents (but not from your target), then on the following round, you can finish the Coup de grace by using another Standard Action, or you can Ready this action instead, delivering the fatal blow when you see fit. Finishing a Coup de grace in this matter exceptionally provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents (but not from your target).
Rodgrin 07-12-06, 11:55 AM	Hey guys, thanks for the replies. You rock! My game is coming up this Thursday and I wanted to have some options ready to argue with the DM :devil: I think our group will be in the clear, and we'll be able to take out the BBGs before they pull off their CdG. Especially since my character is only 5 foot step from the first one. I'll keep you posted as to what my DM decides and if we made it happen. Thanks again! Rodgrin