Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cornholio 03-19-04, 06:25 AM	I have a very irritating dilemma in my game. We are a fairly standard party set, with a spiked-chain fighter (me), a half orc barbarian killing machine (more on him later), a totally munchkin cleric who we all love because he can heal AND fight, an artillery platform sorcerer (also very valuable to the party) and a halfling druid who we always make fun of for some reason. Here is the problem; The barbarian is a total pansy. Actually, scratch that. He is the archetype of a bully. He has REALLY low int and charisma and wisdom, and of course str and con through the roof. He uses an oversized greatsword and kills tons of crap with one hit, and does ridiculous damage with charges due to his rhino hide armor. He always acts tough and pushes the other party members around, and loves destroying monsters which he can, but whenever an enemy that can actually HURT him appears, he turns yellow as a first level wizard. For example, last game the cleric and I were moving into a room, got dropped into a spike pit, and then attacked by a wraith. "Wait," you ask, "Why was the fighter with reach going in front? Why not the character with the most hit points, best fort save, and highest first-round damage potential?" Good question. He refuses to ever go at the front of the party. Ever. He always hangs out in the middle or in the rear like he was a friggin wizard or something. This really got on my nerves, as it seems as though it was his responsibility to go in front at least sometimes due to his role in the party. But nope, me and the cleric always get stuck in the front row. Bah. Anyway, on with the story. As we were attacked by the wraith, the cleric tried turning it (but failed) then zapped it with some searing light and stuff. I, meanwhile, was climbing up the rope that the druid had tossed down, swinging at the wraith the whole way (master of chains class ability). The druid shot at it with magic arrows (FR, so naturally he's Mielikki) , the cleric tried zapping it, the sorcerer wasn't there, and guess what the barbarian occupied himself with? He sat 20 feet back away from the pit and laughed at us. :hoppingma This irritated me, as he could have at least waited at the edge to get a swing in on the wraith. I mentioned this, but he said "No, I sit back and laugh at you." I remarked that since he wasn't helping, he wouldn't get any XP, but the dm said "No, he is present, he still gets exp for the encounter." A short debate erupted, in which the DM extolled the virtues of soiling ones undergaments at the first sign of danger. I gave up soon because, after all, he's the DM. Two lesser restoration spells later we traveled up a staircase. Once again, the barbarian insisted that me and the cleric go in front. Once again I evil-eyed him and muttered a few snide comments about his resemblance to certain portions of the female anatomy, but no more. We got caught by several traps of course, as this dungeon was full of them. Then, we finally opened the door to the "boss" of the dungeon, an adult black dragon (we are all level 5-7). He blasted us (the cleric and I as usual, the barbarian was cowering in the rear) with acid, and we took cover at the edges of the doors, preparing to charge the beast. The barbarian reluctantly moved up, drawing his incredibly deadly weapon, ready to charge, when... He delayed his action. :headexplo :headexplo :headexplo This was too much for me. He didn't want to go in first. I was ready to wring his neck, but I instead responded verbally, pointing out that I had tumble AND reach and the dragon taking its AoO on me was unlikely. His response? "I don't know that." He was delaying his action on the off chance that I, who was already wounded and even at full had about 20 less hit points than him and no higher an armor class, would take the hit. I managed to get by without physically assaulting him, instead taking solace in the superiority I felt when I led the charge on the dragon, attacking with reach so as to avoid the AoO but still getting full attacked and taking it like a man. Then the barbarian charged in and critted the dragon, chunking its HP pretty bad... a couple rounds later it fled. Even with all this he still calls me an "Xp sponge" because I don't do as much damage in one hit as he does. Nevermind that I frequently disarm and trip enemies, as well as assist in flanks (not to mention take point). This guy is really, really obnoxious. I would understand if he was a wizard or cleric or something, but he is a BARBARIAN. You can say all you want about "Uniqueness" and "Character", you needn't look at the level progression in the PHB to see that the barbarians one purpose in life is to GO AT THE FRONT OF THE MARCHING ORDER. The d12 hit dice, the fort saves, the uncanny dodge... And he refuses to do anything but cower behind the big tough cleric with half his hit points and only fight when we're winning. He never roleplays if he can help it, he always tries to hog all the treasure that he can't use as well as another in the group, ("I want that ring of wizardry." "But you're not a wizard!" "I don't care, I might multiclass, give it to me!"), and thats just the start of his rap sheet. This is a game. Combat is a risk. If you never want to be in danger, you probobly should have taken up turnip farming instead of adventuring. This guy really gets on my nerves. And the worst part? The DM and the others seem to like him for some reason. Sure, he's good at combat, but only when he's winning. Make no mistake, the tide of plenty a battle was turned due to his presence. He is a solid fighting machine, with high damage, high HP, high attack bonus... the works. If only he wasn't such a coward. :rolleyes:
SmiloDan 03-19-04, 09:51 AM	Disarm the barbarian, pick up his sword, and throw it past the dragon. Then tell him to fetch. There really is nothing else to be done. He's actually playing well, since he's surviving, grabbing lots of swag, and thriving. So far, his behavior has no costs. It's actually a good strategy. Annoying to the rest of the party, but I don't know what else to say. Unless you want to get really confrontational. Maybe challenge him to a duel, or get a wizard to geas him to always walk in front of the party, or lie and say you only 2 hp left, so you need to go home and rest before you can continue on the adventure. Heck, if you're always in the lead, lead to where there is no combat and lots of role playing!
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-19-04, 11:44 AM	Nothing saying you HAVE to lead. Take a page out of his book. Sit on your butt and refuse to go anywhere. Have the cleric and druid do the same. If you can handle it, spend your whole session acting like him (i.e. don't lead, don't enter combat first [delay, delay, delay], do make snide remarks and "laugh" at the barbarian as often as you can, etc.). You probably won't get a single thing done, but it may be that the player of the barbarian doesn't understand how annoying his behavior is. Treat him to a dose of his own personality. Seriously. The only way he's able to act the way he does is if the rest of you players allow him to act that way. Stop letting him get away with things. If you and the cleric (and the sorcerer, although you and the cleric are the important ones) decide to stop kowtowing to him, there's nothing he can do about it. He's either going to have to step up and start playing as part of a group/team, or nothing's going to get done. The two of you shouldn't have to consistently pick up his slack; maybe it's time to cut the rope loose. Alternatively, talk to the DM. If the DM is a roleplaying fanatic, point out that the barbarian isn't acting in-character; a low Int/Wis barbarian should be MORE of a raging and impetuous character than otherwise. Point out that the barbarian is ruining the fun for the rest of you, and ask whether it would kill him to start acting as a member of the group for once. It seems he's tagging along for HIS fun, and not willing to sacrifice anything for the group. If YOU need a roleplaying reason to do this, point out that you see how successful the barbarian is (i.e. taking a lot less hits than you, but still getting full exp/loot) and you want to be just as "successful."
Crossover-Chronicler 03-19-04, 11:47 AM	After the Wraith incident, you have an IC reason to dislike your character: he laughed while a creature from beyond the grave tried to rip your soul out through your navel. THerefore, you might (especially being somewhat "dark" as a master of chains) want to pay him back: Camp. Take first watch. coup de grace. If he doesn't learn his lesson: Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Alternatively, you and the cleric could simply refuse to go first as well; let the whole game bog down until the Barbarian agrees to take his beatings along with everyone else. Edit: SmiloDan, I like your style :schemes:
Nameless One Jr. 03-19-04, 11:54 AM	Let me get this straight, you're of a high enough level to have a prestige class, and face a dragon, but your cleric couldn't turn a wraith? :confused: As for the barbarian, what's his alignment? If it doesn't say CE on his character sheet right now, the DM should make it so, because that's how his personality is showing through. It's not the barbarian that's the problem here, it's the player. This guy obviously isn't a team player. If you can't reason with him, give him a taste of his own medicine. The next time the DM throws something at you guys he thinks he can handle, and then finds is over his head, have the rest of you stand back and delay your actions long enough for him to get a hurt put on him. Then pull his fat out of the fire and show him what teamwork is all about.
Cornholio 03-19-04, 04:41 PM	Nameless one: He rolled a natural one on his turning check. Twice. In a row. Happens to everyone. :sad: Anyway, that very night I did try to give him a "taste of his own medicine". When he refused to charge the dragon because he "might get hurt", I actually did try to play his game (I.E. I move over and delay until he charges). I left this part out of the first post because when I did that, the DM got on my case. That is part of the problem here; the DM seems to be on his side. The DM always says he isn't doing anything wrong because he is chaotic neutral aligned, and that it "He is just trying to survive ok?". Well thats all well and good but maybe he should try being a team player for once! :behold: Anyway, since the DM is against me for changing his play style, and beleive me Crossover I would like to do the CdG thing but he would say that "Your character is now evil and you can't play him anymore" (Ugh I hate alignment, such a player straight-jacket), I will probobly have to settle for using my "Dark master of chains" angle to pull some disturbing pranks on him. I.E. buying a doll or something of an orc or half orc, ripping its eyes off, painting a trickle of red from its mouth, tying a small chain around its neck like a noose, and hanging it above his face while he's asleep. I'll probobly have its arms and legs chained up and it impaled a couple of times too. :schemes: Either way, I'm hoping he will get the message sooner or later. I take more damage than any other character in the party by far (because I'm always in point), and its only a matter of time until I get killed by some trap or another (I've had some very close calls). Also nameless, I might try the alignment thing, but I doubt the DM would go for it, since the barbarian is chaotic neutral. Maybe if I goad him into attacking me with my shennanigans, he will get slapped with the alignment change, and I won't have to deal with him anymore. Or at the very least, get him to stop acting like such a bully and more like a true coward.
wdarkk 03-19-04, 05:24 PM	Confront the DM en-mass. Have everyone but the barb show up 10 minutes early and lay into a "discussion". Explain that this is not fun for the non-jackass players. Otherwise - you and the group simply refuse to adventure with his character. He's a liability. If you're not evil enough to kill him, don't let him come along. If that doesn't work, CDG him with subdual damage to knock him out, then leave him somewhere that he can't get back from. I'd recommend Limbo. Pin a note to him saying "enjoy Slaad implantation sucka" or something.
PhaedrusXY 03-19-04, 07:19 PM	I'm not sure if this is a conflict between players, or if this guy just roleplays his character as a big smart-alecky bully. Either way, I don't think there is anything you can do about it. I'd suggest taking a lesson from him, and buying a Bag of Tricks. You can use it to summon up to ten critters per week. Use them to take point and soak up all the trap damage and Attacks of Opportunity. Buy more than one if you think you'll need them. They're pretty cheap.
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-19-04, 08:07 PM	I'm with wdarkk on this one. If this barbarian's behavior is DM-supported, it's discussion time. Point out (calmly and politely) that encouraging the player to behave like this (and he is encouraging that behavior by not allowing your characters to react to it in-game) spoils the fun for the rest of you. Point out (politely and calmly) that if he has a debt to pay to the player of this character, to not pay it in-game. Point out (rationally and respectfully) that an alignment is a guideline, not a straitjacket, and a single instance of behavior (such as your sitting back and not taking action) does not necessitate an instant alignment change. Threats of that nature indicate that the DM is trying to control your characters' actions, which he should never do. Point out, as bluntly as necessary, that "alignment" should never be an excuse for allowing behavior that splits a group apart.
Veton 03-19-04, 08:44 PM	How do the other players feel about this? I'm guessing the same as you, but you may want to check before you do anything. Assuming they feel the same way about him as you do, here's one suggestion: Have an adventure or dungeon crawl, or whatever. If the Barbarian does this same stuff again, then wait till it's over. Make sure the spellcasters get one day to prepare spells. They should be offensive. Then, tell the Barbarian to leave, and to not even think about coming back to the group. Tell him that if he's going to cower behind everyone, then he's no use to you. Give him the money he "earned," and then kick him out. If he turns violent on you, that's when you unleash your offensive spells and attacks. With your chain, you should be trying to keep him down, as the casters whammy him with spell after spell (try to get him into a rage first, and then wait for it to run out before hitting him with spells that require either Forituide or Will saving throws.) Then tell the player and DM that the Barbarian was not a team player, and that the player should roll up a new person who will actually work with the team, not cower behind them. You should get together with the rest of the players and discuss your tactics, so that you don't have to figure out tactics on the fly. Get one or two back-up plans. Try and figure out the player's modifers to all your tactics (so saving throw modifers, modifer to resist being tripped, etc.) If the player attemps to lie, or the DM attempts to cover up for him (Make him roll out in the open), then say, "But _____ has a __ modifer, and couldn't make it with that roll." If, at any time the DM just goes along with the false roll, or stops you from doing it, all of you should get up and leave, without saying anything. Just pack up your stuff, and leave his house. Let's see the DM revise his adventure/dungeon on the fly :smirk: Let us know how it turns out.
dbongard 03-19-04, 09:32 PM	I'm not sure if this is a conflict between players, or if this guy just roleplays his character as a big smart-alecky bully.What's the difference, really? I've never understood the distinction between (a) being a complete jerk of a player, and (b) knowingly creating a character the other players will hate and then "roleplaying it accurately". He's either a putz, or deliberately choosing to act like a putz -- either way, "putz" accurately describes him. Anyway, in this case it sounds like there's nothing you can realistically do, other than quit the campaign and find a decent DM. Or show the DM the error of his ways by conspiring with all the other players to create nothing but Chaotic Neutral coward characters. See how much fun the DM has when every adventure he runs begins and ends with the entire party refusing to enter the dungeon. :angel:
Nom 03-19-04, 11:50 PM	Take it IC, without rancour. Simply tell the GM and player that "Our characters have decided that this guy (the character) is a bludger and a liability, and he's not a member of our party any more." Play it out IC if need be. Frankly, D&D is about adventuring teams. Any team that regularly faces life-or-death situations isn't going to tolerate someone who doesn't pull their weight for very long, unless they have something special in return. For example, although a Wiz spends most of the adventure just tagging along (was even worse in earlier editions), he comes through in those special occasions. Similarly for a rogue who can't fight to save his life, but is a genious with traps and can talk his way past a dragon. But there's no room for spectators who carry their swords for ornamental purposes, or glory-hounds who wait until every is nearly dead to come in and clean up. Unless they're so good at it that the other characters don't notice. So, tell the player and the DM that said char is on notice, and he better shape up or ship out. Of course, if the char is ejected and someone else just happens to turn up who is willing to pull their weight, so much the better. PS: Oops, new posts. Then "I agree" to Veton's post. :)
Crossover-Chronicler 03-20-04, 01:34 AM	Originally posted by Cornholio Anyway, that very night I did try to give him a "taste of his own medicine". When he refused to charge the dragon because he "might get hurt", I actually did try to play his game (I.E. I move over and delay until he charges). I left this part out of the first post because when I did that, the DM got on my case. That is part of the problem here; the DM seems to be on his side. The DM always says he isn't doing anything wrong because he is chaotic neutral aligned, and that it "He is just trying to survive ok?". Well thats all well and good but maybe he should try being a team player for once! :behold: Anyway, since the DM is against me for changing his play style, and beleive me Crossover I would like to do the CdG thing but he would say that "Your character is now evil and you can't play him anymore" (Ugh I hate alignment, such a player straight-jacket), I will probobly have to settle for using my "Dark master of chains" angle to pull some disturbing pranks on him. I.E. buying a doll or something of an orc or half orc, ripping its eyes off, painting a trickle of red from its mouth, tying a small chain around its neck like a noose, and hanging it above his face while he's asleep. I'll probobly have its arms and legs chained up and it impaled a couple of times too. :schemes: Either way, I'm hoping he will get the message sooner or later. I take more damage than any other character in the party by far (because I'm always in point), and its only a matter of time until I get killed by some trap or another (I've had some very close calls). Also nameless, I might try the alignment thing, but I doubt the DM would go for it, since the barbarian is chaotic neutral. Maybe if I goad him into attacking me with my shennanigans, he will get slapped with the alignment change, and I won't have to deal with him anymore. Or at the very least, get him to stop acting like such a bully and more like a true coward. Lemme get this straight; he is "just playing his character," because he's CN. But you, with a more lawful (or at least non-chaotic affinity) get crap from the DM for trying to force him to pull his weight? :bored: It's a double-standard no matter how you slice it. I really hope the DM makes up for this kind of childishness with an otherwise incredible game. Since killing the character is not an option, ditch him. Camp, take first watch, and wait 'til he's fast asleep. Then get the party together and have the mage teleport you to a new location. If you can't teleport, then use flight or anything else that will prevent him from tracking you. Abandon this adventure, and seek new challenges elsewhere. Leave him his gear (unless it's really tempting) severance pay, and a note explaining how the group has split over "artistic differences." Get the group behind you, and make it clear (at least to the DM) that this setup is unacceptable. Does teh DM have any reason to be so preferential to this character, even if it just comes to excusing his actions? They related, dating, old friends from grade school, owe each other money, etc?
PhaedrusXY 03-20-04, 01:44 AM	Originally posted by dbongard What's the difference, really? I've never understood the distinction between (a) being a complete jerk of a player, and (b) knowingly creating a character the other players will hate and then "roleplaying it accurately". He's either a putz, or deliberately choosing to act like a putz -- either way, "putz" accurately describes him. If you can't roleplay characters that have a bit of friction between them without getting :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off in real life over it, you have a problem understanding the nature of the game, and quite possibly more problems than that. I've played in games where people played characters that were ready to kill each other at the drop of a hat, if the circumstances arose. And indeed they did sometimes. Most of the time, the player's laughed over it afterwards. Unless they just didn't like each other in real life. In which case, that crap should be resolved outside the game, not in it. It depends on what kind of game you're playing in. Do you get mad at other people if they beat you at Chess? What if they use some sneaky trick that you've never seen before to do so? Not every character in the game has to be your friend, or have your best interests in mind. If they did, it would be boring, in my opinion. If I liked that kind of "let's all work together and be happy with no conflicts" crap, I'd go play the Sims. I do agree with Crossover-Chronicler, though. Work it out in character. Leave him behind, turn him over to some authorities for some crime he's committed, or just confront him as a party and tell him to shape up or ship out. If the DM tries to interfere, don't put up with it. Tell him it's your character, and you can roleplay it anyway you want to. If he doesn't like it, he can change your alignment. That's about all the say a DM has over how you roleplay your character. After you've ditched the character, the group can tell the player that if he makes another character that they can't stand, that they'll ditch him too. If you want to. You might find that you enjoy roleplaying kicking the jerk character out of the party. ;)
Cornholio 03-20-04, 04:24 AM	I thank you guys for your advice, I really do, but there is one major fly in the ointment... The rest of the group doesn't seem to get bugged too much by his behavior. The reason for this is simple; it doesn't affect them. The cleric goes in front along with me most of the time (the barbarian goes in front once in a while, just not when he thinks any tough fights or traps might be ahead...), but the DM thinks attacking the cleric too often is "mean", especially since the cleric got killed a couple sessions ago in a totally cheesy boss fight involving an erinyes (we rezzed him of course) so he usually picks on me. The druid and sorcerer hang out in the middle, and rightfully so, and they (and the DM) sort of like to treat him as the party mascot due to the "big dumb strong barbarian" stereotype. To tell the truth, he wasn't really that bad until recently. Most of the time he isn't all that bad aside from his treasure-hog habits, but in the last couple of sessions he has really been acting yellow. I think my best bet is to take it up with him ICly. The player has been known not to shy away from PvP combat before. In fact, he, on several occasions, instigated and continued such behavior. So if combat happens, most likely he will throw the first punch. The problem is, I'm not too confident in my ability to beat him. If I can trip or disarm him before he rages I might have a chance, but otherwise I'm dead meat... I'm more of a support fighter than a main-battle tank. I'll probobly just start doing creepy but not directly hostile things to him. Even if that won't solve the problem, it will be fun and help me feel better with a little revenge. Also, Phaedrus, that is a very good suggestion. We don't have a rogue, so having a few summoned "human mine detectors" (a role which I am, regrettably, being used in at the moment). Thanks for your help all, I'll see what I can do talking with the DM and the rest of the group if he keeps it up this next game on sunday. :)
Harmor 03-20-04, 04:47 AM	We had the same problem with a Barbarian, no less, that would cower behind everyone...even the rogue!!! Anyhow my LN guy gave him his 'share' and told him to leave the party. If not I would tell the guards what he has done (this guy had more skeletons than a Necromancer's courtyard). I then told the GM that we were looking for a new party member, one that has a history of trustworthiness and honesty. Oh...we were also in a dwarven stronghold, so that helped me alot there. Since then the guy has been cooperative and is helpful, but every so often he has his 'cowardly' face, like when we fought a spectre and he ran away.
Vaelan 03-20-04, 05:16 AM	It isn't worth playing the game with idiots like that. Ask him to stop being a jackass. If he refuses, convince the other characters to kick him out of the party if he doesn't change his behavior. If that doesn't work, don't play with them anymore.
Spongly 03-20-04, 06:42 AM	Why not just spend your entire time outside adventuring boasting of your heroic deeds and of the cowardly conduct of the so called "barbarian warrior"? Sure you're taking more damage and the like, but you're surviving, so you're the one doing the hard work - no guts, no glory.
FreeTheSlaves 03-20-04, 09:48 AM	You have to confont this in two areas. 1) OoC: Tell everyone what you think, lay it bare like you did for us. It will help unless they are lost causes. 2) IC: Don't be a sucker to this guy. Don't enter combat until he does and tell him why, "because you're a yella-belly and I need to see you cuttin it with us before I'm prepared to BLEED with you". If the guy kills you, you may have to get a gm a bit more older and experienced but I garantee finding a good (friend &) gm will make for a brilliant game.
ShadowRanger 03-21-04, 11:19 AM	in combat wait back with the barbarian, and if the DM calls you on it cite tactical reasoining as your cause for hanging back. If your character has any wisdom or intelligence he will not want to rush in and get killed. Just say you ready an attack for the first enemy to come in range when you are hanging back, as opposed to ready a charge to follow another character.
Cyricist 03-21-04, 11:48 AM	Clearly, the group is behind the Barbarian and his asocial way of doing things, IC or OOC doesn't matter, and thus I would take drastic action on your own: tell the DM this isn't working and create a new character like a weak spellcaster or sneak, literally forcing the burly cleric and cowardly barbarian forward in the combat sequence. If he keeps his behaviour up then ("You go first") tell him IC you won't and stick to it. Run off before he does (improved initiative), give him some of his own medicine. Or you could just take a level in Cleric and force the low will barbarian to "attack" via command spell, see how he likes being pushed around :D A barbarian with low wisdom is quite susceptable to spells.. :angel:
bitnine 03-21-04, 12:23 PM	You know, you could always tell some of the other players or even the DM (though perhaps not the barbarian's player) about this thread; it might be good to hear from them, and it might be good if they knew how you felt about these game issues, which you've presented in a fairly reasonable manner.
Tehril 03-21-04, 12:48 PM	Hmmm... that IS a bit strange for a barbarian. I play a similar barbarian who is a mix of Bbn, Rog and Ranger... He is deathly afraid of ANYTHING supernatural... but relatively fearless of anything living (ie, if it bleeds...it can die). This goes to a point... large dragons are something to be afraid of...but if even one of the party can't retreat or engages in combat and it is possible to attack the foe from the ground...he's in there. Your Bbn just needs a good role model :D
Veton 03-21-04, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by Cornholio The rest of the group doesn't seem to get bugged too much by his behavior. The reason for this is simple; it doesn't affect them. The cleric goes in front along with me most of the time (the barbarian goes in front once in a while, just not when he thinks any tough fights or traps might be ahead...), but the DM thinks attacking the cleric too often is "mean", especially since the cleric got killed a couple sessions ago in a totally cheesy boss fight involving an erinyes (we rezzed him of course) so he usually picks on me. Wait...what about this? For example, last game the cleric and I were moving into a room, got dropped into a spike pit, and then attacked by a wraith.... <SNIP> Anyway, on with the story. As we were attacked by the wraith, the cleric tried turning it (but failed) then zapped it with some searing light and stuff. I, meanwhile, was climbing up the rope that the druid had tossed down, swinging at the wraith the whole way (master of chains class ability). The druid shot at it with magic arrows (FR, so naturally he's Mielikki) , the cleric tried zapping it, the sorcerer wasn't there, and guess what the barbarian occupied himself with? He sat 20 feet back away from the pit and laughed at us. And the cleric is fine with it? :uh-huh: All right, here's another idea: Always bring the Cleric with you. Say that you'll need him in case you get injured while out in front. A few more things like what happened with the pit and the wraith, and you should be able to get the Cleric on your side. Then the Cleric withholds the healing untill the Barbarian starts doing his job :schemes:
Nightingale 7 03-21-04, 04:39 PM	Actually I'm reading ALL the signs of catastrophe here: A Barbarian who thinks that CN is like CE without the consequences?A DM who agrees with him on that,and tries to hogtie your nongood player? The DM thinks that seeing a battle will get equal XP? The barbarian wants anything magical and shiny? Unless I'm making a big mistake,things ARE going to get worse.You'd better make your case clear,and get a definitive answer.Tell to the group that you're a reach fighter,and therefore it would be much better tactics if you were BEHIND the front duo,which I assume use non-reach melee weapons.YOU can swing your chain over their heads,while the barbarian is going to miss actions getting in front.If he starts pulling "I'm just roleplaying" crap then there are two things you can do: First,say that your character had an "epiphany",turn CN and get BEHIND the Sorcerer.If that doesn't work retire your character and build a wizard,or some other d4 weakling.If he still insists you should go up front,laugh at him and show him your HPs. If nothing works leave,far away
Remnant 03-21-04, 06:17 PM	Your DM is an idiot. Hmmm... I know the argument can be made that he is roleplaying, but, here is what I would do: Say to the other charaters, "We cannot depend on this barbarian to aid us, and therefore, he is a liability that could get us killed. In the interest of the greater good of the group, I suggest we separate ourselves from him." Groups cannot afford to take dead weight like him around. Out of character, I would talk to the DM at least. The barbarian would certainly NOT get exp for doing what he did. But, your DM sounds like an idiot, or a :censored:. But don't say that to him if you want to keep playing. BTW: What he is doing is not good roleplaying by any measure- he is, like most group-hostile players, relying heavily on the meta-game concept of a group- that all PCs "stick together." Don't let him do this. It's not roleplaying a type, because it is not rational behavior for the group to remain together for no reason. If you can't get some kind of resolution however, from the DM or player, leave. And burn the barb's character sheet on the way out... er... j/k.
HoshiAdam 03-21-04, 06:58 PM	If it gets bad, have your character leave, because it is too dangerous for him, and his skills would be better used elsewhere. Next, make up a greedy rogue, that steals from the barbarian. True Neutral, and feels the barbarian doesn't hold his own weight, so shouldn't have as much weight of loot. If the DM calls you on it, just say that you are RPing your character correctly. Oh, and be willing to get into fights, maybe a bit of a daredevil if it is on his own terms. Maybe even grab a cohort barbarian that can be the new point-man, and belittles the PC barbarian for being a coward. Go TWF with the rogue and make both dwarves.
Teron Gorefiend 03-21-04, 11:06 PM	An in-game problem is best handled in-game. The character, through his inaction, does more harm than good. Why would anyone else be willing to adventure with him? Surely at least a couple of other party members agree? If so, give 'im the boot. If that doesn't work, the next time your character dies (or, hell, just have the current one leave in disgust), roll up a new character. An enchanter. Doubly effective, since he can't possibly justify staying behind you in combat and if he actually tries, you can change his mind easily enough. If anyone objects to your treating a party-member like that, point out (in and out of character) that it's necessary for everyone's survival that the party's only real melee fighter does job.
tiggrhoo 03-22-04, 06:47 AM	Wow, someone has made every halfway good point I had to offer plus a lot of better ones. So I'll just add this: Why is this guy playing a barbarian when he clearly doesn't want to? Has he even read any of the Conan books? Maybe you would feel better if you changed your expectations. Just rename the class to "greedy coward" and point out that it fits his actual roleplaying style much better. :D Seriously, lacking support from the group or the DM (I'm still amazed by that!), maybe you could try a last ditch conversation with the player?
pjackson 03-22-04, 10:48 AM	As described the barbarians behaviour sounds CN with a tendancy to evil. There is no reason why all barbarians have to be roleplayed the same way. There is no problem there. The barbarian is not acting as would be tactically best for the group. He is entitled to do that as D&D is a role-playing game, not a wargame. The barbarian is behaving in a stupid and obnoxious way. That could be considered good roleplaying of a character with "REALLY low int and charisma and wisdom". The barbarian is not a team player - very appropriate for a CN character. Perhaps a bad choice at character creation though a common one, and not too bad since you have surviived to a fairly high level (assuming you started low). You tried to get the DM to penalize his character for acting in a certain way and the DM refused. That was good DMing. his job is to control the NPCs not the PCs. The DM got your your case for your character trying try to give him some of his own medicine. That was bad DMing. his job is to control the NPCs not the PCs. Talk to the DM about that. Your character is annoyed with the barbarian for his behaviour, but is afraid to confront him directly. That sounds like good material for role-playing. Most of my character would be absolutely furious with him. The DM would consider murdering the barbarian in his sleep an evil act - quite rightly. Why is your character staying with the party? Loyalty to the other members would be a good enough reason. As would the attitude that since you have done nothing wrong you should be the one who should leave. What would your character do? Secretly hold a grudge? Work towards being able to defeat the barbarian with the aim of confronting him when you can? Try to shame the barbarian into acting as you think he should? Try to talk the other party PCs into expelling him?
Bluebrush 03-22-04, 10:49 AM	It may be IC-ish to mercilessly taunt Wussor the Mighty here. "Do you carry that sword for show?" "The elves have 163 words for 'wuss' and they all apply to you!" "Right. Fight's over. Have the pack mule get over here and carry the loot away." "I've seen mewling kittens braver than you!" And so fourth. More scathing. Though don't get personal with the player himself. Just his character. In the end, you may just need to finda a new group if the games are no fun. (Though I didn't notice you say that in particular.)
Nom 03-22-04, 07:52 PM	Originally posted by pjackson You tried to get the DM to penalize his character for acting in a certain way and the DM refused. That was good DMing. his job is to control the NPCs not the PCs. Well, yes and no. While awarding differential XP is in general a very bad idea, this is different. The character who "sits back and laughs" is actively not helping the team overcome the challenge. Likewise, the character who "guards against intruders" is helping the rogue disarm the trap. The one who "throws small stones at the rogue" is not. XP awards are for the adventuring team, and reward the team for corporately overcoming challenges. If the players don't feel someone is being a team player, then the players are entitled to request that their XP is not shared with the maverick.
pjackson 03-23-04, 09:46 AM	Having xp being a reward for helping the 'team' would penalise most non team-player PCs, i.e. a lot of chaotic PCs, perhaps most. Restricting character types that way might be good or bad depending on how you want the game to go. Team-players get a reward anyway - their teams can overcome stronger obstacles and thus obtain larger xp awards. But my point was that when one player tries to persuade another player to have his character act in a certain way by saying that if he does not he won't share in xp the DM was right to refuse to back such a threat.
Veton 03-23-04, 11:07 AM	Originally posted by pjackson But my point was that when one player tries to persuade another player to have his character act in a certain way by saying that if he does not he won't share in xp the DM was right to refuse to back such a threat. But the character didn't do anything. He just sat there and laughed at his party members who were in trouble. The second senario, though, he did do something (true, the moocher only did one thing, but he did do something), so he gets XP.
Crossover-Chronicler 03-23-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by pjackson Having xp being a reward for helping the 'team' would penalise most non team-player PCs, i.e. a lot of chaotic PCs, perhaps most. Restricting character types that way might be good or bad depending on how you want the game to go. Team-players get a reward anyway - their teams can overcome stronger obstacles and thus obtain larger xp awards. But my point was that when one player tries to persuade another player to have his character act in a certain way by saying that if he does not he won't share in xp the DM was right to refuse to back such a threat. I don't see it that way; you get XP for overcoming challenges. If he doesn't bother to face those challenges, then he should get no reward. It's not the DM's job to make sure everyone gets along and contibutes; that's a player responsibility. Still, the DM shouldn't enable the jerks in a group. see below (emohasis mine): Originally posted by Cornholio Anyway, that very night I did try to give him a "taste of his own medicine". When he refused to charge the dragon because he "might get hurt", I actually did try to play his game (I.E. I move over and delay until he charges). I left this part out of the first post because when I did that, the DM got on my case. That is part of the problem here; the DM seems to be on his side. The DM always says he isn't doing anything wrong because he is chaotic neutral aligned, and that it "He is just trying to survive ok?". Well thats all well and good but maybe he should try being a team player for once!And XP is gained for being in an encounter The barbarian wasn't even there; he was standing above the battleground (pit) mocking the other characters: He sat 20 feet back away from the pit and laughed at us. This irritated me, as he could have at least waited at the edge to get a swing in on the wraith. I mentioned this, but he said "No, I sit back and laugh at you." I remarked that since he wasn't helping, he wouldn't get any XP, but the dm said "No, he is present, he still gets exp for the encounter." A short debate erupted, in which the DM extolled the virtues of soiling ones undergaments at the first sign of danger. I gave up soon because, after all, he's the DM.IMO, no DM should tolerate this from the same player who ever uttered the words "XP sponge." Even with all this he still calls me an "Xp sponge" because I don't do as much damage in one hit as he does. Nevermind that I frequently disarm and trip enemies, as well as assist in flanks (not to mention take point).That crosses the line to OoC behavior, and if the DM is really that slow on picking this up, I'd start shopping for a new game. IMO, this exceeds "not punishing non-team players" and is in fact DM favoritism.
pres_man 03-23-04, 03:36 PM	Make your character develop a phobia of being the first one into a new area. After setting off numerous traps and falling into a pit with an undead creature (would probably be mentally disturbing), you're character just can't bring himself to be the first one in. He needs to know that a trap is going to go off. Even if there is a big obvious enemy there waiting. You: I'm not going in there after him, there might be traps and I might fall and ... the hands they are coming for me. :eek: Barbarian: Look there is just that guy, just go get him, there are no traps. :tantrum: You (in a extremely calm quiet voice): That's exactly what he wants us to think. :mymy: If you want to be even more annoying with this you could try to keep track of where everybody walked and only step in those spots. :D
HorrorOfYig 03-23-04, 05:52 PM	Hmm....of all the players, only you have the problem with the character. Does this tell you something? Think more constructively, Cornholio. And slap your DM for being a restrictive one. Lose control of a character for being evil, feh. LE's are a lot more tolerable than half the CN morons running around, like this Barbarian.
Chebleux 03-23-04, 06:25 PM	You can have your character PvP the barbarian. Hire a bunch of thieve's guild rogues and confront him in a public place with the rogues all around. If you're losing just give the signal and BAM! sneak attack x 30. :b: If you still lose, then roll up a CN barbarian and give him a taste of his own medicine.
ShadeShinobi 03-23-04, 06:36 PM	Cleric-Bestow Curse on Barbarian + Fighter-Kill Barbarian = Curst servant!
Nom 03-23-04, 07:59 PM	Originally posted by pjackson Having xp being a reward for helping the 'team' would penalise most non team-player PCs, i.e. a lot of chaotic PCs, perhaps most. Restricting character types that way might be good or bad depending on how you want the game to go.Ayup. D&D is fundamentally about the heroic story of an adventuring party. If you choose not to emphasise the party aspect, you need to tweak some of the mechanics. XP is the most notable. Team-players get a reward anyway - their teams can overcome stronger obstacles and thus obtain larger xp awards.Not really, no. XP is already divided amongst the party members, and basically linearly. A character who fails to pull his weight but still gains XP actually "steals" XP from the other characters, who now face a relatively tougher challenge without being fairly compensated. Ultimately, it's the party's decision (ie not the DM's). If they are willing to accept a "less than optimal" companion, for whatever reason, then that's fine. If not, it's specifically unfair for the DM to force the companion on them without some sort of compensation (story or otherwise) for the liability. This holds true even if the dead-weight is another player's character.
wdarkk 03-23-04, 09:34 PM	In this situation, I'd simply retire my fighter and see if I could get my own CN psycho character, except mine would have no will to live and 200 identical brothers. Hello Frenzied Berserker class!
Noriass Gato 03-24-04, 07:47 AM	One time - its fun and all. Regularly - you are right, if it takes fun away from You, then a good talk between all group OOG is in order. In atesting W/V system we got a new game going, and one of our players got dwarven wizard. (I was rogue, and other four were hexblade, cleric, classical fighter and a cloistered cleric (i think) ). In our first battle, when our camp in middle of snowy nowhere was besieged by about twenty wolves ala JackLondon stories. Cl.cleric was DMing. We were caught on ground, except dwarf who managed to climb up the tree before all the thing started, and just sat out there while rest of use were slowly turned into wolf lunch. I tried to climb up as well, but with two beasts flanking me and AoO as i climbed ( and got 1 on first try) took me out on round two. The rest of battle went ok, fighters slowly killed about 1/2 of the pack and the rest fled. Then dwarf came down. Smeone would have killed him on the spot, but we didnt... Also, exp has to be shared as well... Ok, but the revenge was sweet. Later, we got some walking giant undead sprung at us, and in his loot, me as rogue managed to swipe a small cup, that refilled with the beer every time i took it in hands... The dwarf was known alcoholic, and his beer barrel was out. So next time he went to memorize spells, i just stood so that the wind blew at him, and demonstratively drank ... And later shared cup with everyone of the group, except dwarf. OOG he knows, but IG he cant do anything...
pjackson 03-24-04, 09:08 AM	I don't see it that way; you get XP for overcoming challenges. If he doesn't bother to face those challenges, then he should get no reward. If a character spends his time watching the rear whilst the others fight should he be penalised by not getting the xp for "facing" the challenge? I don't think so, but it is a matter for the DM's judgement. I consider it good DMing to not act on a player's suggestion that another player's character be denied experience. Such behaviour should not be encouraged. If the DM had just decided not to give the barbarian xp that would have been OK, but once the player had suggested it the right thind was to award the barbarian xp. In other words the DM shouldn't enable the jerks in a group The conflict between the characters should be kept in character, by both players. D&D is fundamentally about the heroic story of an adventuring party. In my experience, which goes back to before AD&D 1e, the party is important, but is usually a collection of individuals rather than a team. Nor do you need to tweak the mechanics for that, not that there is anything wrong with tweaking the mechanics. If you wanted the game to be more about the party you could encourage that by tweaks such as banning chaotic characters, but by default chaotic individualists are allowed. Team-players get a reward anyway Yes really. They get the same proportion of a larger amount of xp since they make the party more successful, so they get more xp than if they were not team-players. It is true they also benefit the non-team players, but they do get something themselves, and as a true team-player they should not resent other members of the team gaining from their efforts. Murder is not a resonable response to being laughed at. It would be an evil act, and the DM is entitled not to want to run a game for evil characters. Some other IC response is needed. it is diffulct to suggest something without knowing more of the characters and the world they live in. A lawful (honourable) response in many societies would be to challenge him to a duel. In Europe if you callled a man a coward and he didn't challenge you to duel and did not have a good excuse that would cause the accusation to stick. So you could try telling the story of the fight in the pit publicly. I'd discuss this with the DM first. You could hire a bard to make up and perform a song about the fight with the dragon, including a section about the barbarian trembling with fear before the fight and refusing to go in despite your character trying to persuade him, so you bravely charged in anyway, inspring the barbarian with the courage he lacked. Do it well and you might get children in the streets jeering at him.
KHORG 03-25-04, 11:34 AM	Hmm....of all the players, only you have the problem with the character. Does this tell you something? I was kinda thinking, the last campaign I played in, I was a mage "in the middle of the marching order" and we had a half-orc fighter with massive hitpoints, fort etc, but a tendency towards cowardice. It was the guy's first campaing, but all the same, it probably annoyed the Paladin who had to put the hard yards in instead a bit. Guess your perspective changes depending on whether or not there is a meatshield in front of you or not. I'd suggest the mages, etc would fast change over to your point of view if their only meatshield wanted them to go in first. With that in mind, maybe one option open to you is to not attend the next game?
Crossover-Chronicler 03-25-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by pjackson If a character spends his time watching the rear whilst the others fight should he be penalised by not getting the xp for "facing" the challenge? I don't think so, but it is a matter for the DM's judgement. "Watch the rear" is the strangest euphemism for "sit back and laugh" I've yet seen.I consider it good DMing to not act on a player's suggestion that another player's character be denied experience.I consider it good DMing to weigh suggestions based on their merit.Such behaviour should not be encouraged.WHy not?If the DM had just decided not to give the barbarian xp that would have been OK, but once the player had suggested it the right thind was to award the barbarian xp.Why?In other words The DM shouldn't enable jerks in the group.Now you're saying Cornholio is a jerk?The conflict between the characters should be kept in character, by both players. I'll say it again: "XP sponge" is not an in-character term. At that point, the player is speking.In my experience, which goes back to before AD&D 1e, the party is important, but is usually a collection of individuals rather than a team. Nor do you need to tweak the mechanics for that, not that there is anything wrong with tweaking the mechanics. If you wanted the game to be more about the party you could encourage that by tweaks such as banning chaotic characters, but by default chaotic individualists are allowed.Nothing prevents chaotic characters frpm contributing to a group. Yes really. They get the same proportion of a larger amount of xp since they make the party more successful, so they get more xp than if they were not team-players. It is true they also benefit the non-team players, but they do get something themselves, and as a true team-player they should not resent other members of the team gaining from their efforts.Not so; the group would thrive more successfully if that XP were not being sucked into the dead weight.Murder is not a resonable response to being laughed at. It would be an evil act, and the DM is entitled not to want to run a game for evil characters.I disagree. Delighting in the suffering of others is an evil act. The Barbarian remains CN. Thus, a single evil act won't shift alignment unless the DM makes an exception. That says to me that the "alignment restriction" is an artficial method of restricting Cornholio's recourse.
Hot Rod 03-26-04, 12:22 AM	Kill him in his sleep, hide the body, and donate his belongings to charity. :) Seriously, do this only if your next action is to walk out the door IRL over this person's behavior. (IC and OOC) Try the other suggestions first, use the barbarians tactics and justify it as you "noticed how successful the barb does with it". Don't let the DM bully you into being the tank. If you really want to make this stick, (and have 11+ wisdom) take your next levels in cleric. You won't lose much BaB, and you can add Command: "fall prone" to your tripping chain toolkit. (Particularly good Vs. raging barbs :) )
Toptomcat 03-29-04, 03:54 PM	If all these things are true and have been consistantly true, then the Barbarian's alignment is Evil and should thus be disqualified from play under the GM's own rule.