Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmor 08-07-04, 01:45 PM	Ok ok. Why would a DM put a CR 18 Assassin (level 8 or 10 Assassin + 6-8 levels of rogue + some 4HD template), vs. a party of level 2-5 characters? The guy walks in Altered Self to look like a messenger boy, then proceeded to cased Improved Invisibility and kill us one-by-one every 3 rounds doing in excess of 40 points of damage/attack. We don't even have 40 hitpoints yet except our fighter and kept failing the DC 21 Death Attack check. I don't understand why...can someone explain this to me? Thanks.
quaiven 08-07-04, 02:00 PM	Ummm...were you making fun of his mom?
Deluxe 247 G 08-07-04, 02:04 PM	Quite simply, did you make enemies with someone who you shouldn't have? Many DMs get personally offended if you offend any of their NPCs. Maybe you did something wrong that had to do with the story that you didn't know about. Sorry, at least you weren't 13th level and have been playing for years.
Harmor 08-07-04, 02:05 PM	Nope. The first time we met him we were going though an alley. A body falls into the alley from a window above and 3 stealthy types drop down and fight us. After the battle is over I'm searching the bodies while my companions are about to explore the building where the body came from. And WHAM, I take 40 points of damage and goto -5 hp (I only have 35 hp). We spend the next 10 rounds trying to fight this guy, but every 3 rounds he kills one of us. It was pathetic.
Thorak 08-07-04, 02:07 PM	Your DM is an idiot. Or a control freak who, having been outdone by his players despite his best efforts, is now taking petty revenge on them just because he can force it to happen. Either way, he's a bad, bad, bad DM.
Harmor 08-07-04, 02:11 PM	My level 13 character has +21 to Fortitude. Making a DC 21 fortitude wouldn't had been a problem, nor taking 40 points of damage (he has 183 hp). We're playing a Dragonlance campaign and we happened to have found some 'evil' items in a temple that was dececrated about 700 years ago. We were taking the items to a mage that lived, of all places, near the ruins of High Sorcerery near Kendermore. We arrive in a the city and go and get rooms at the inn. Apparently, we found this out later, that the 3 sneaky types were actually specially trained town guards who were after said Assassin. They thought that we were working for him as we stumbled into them as, apparently, they had him cornered. But he cast Dimension Door and escaped (not from an item because he cast defensively). We 'won' the encounter...but not after half our party died. I was lucky and stablized at -8. And to top all things off, we got 560 xp each for the encounter...
Starmage21 08-07-04, 02:21 PM	lol if you had a party consisting of primarily fighters, a stand up fight against an assassin that high in level shouldve been hard, but not impossible, theyre essentially rogues after all.
ChaoticGod 08-07-04, 03:01 PM	Uh, did the DM recently buy the Ghostwalk campaign setting? :confused:
Lina_Inverse 08-07-04, 03:14 PM	quit.hes an asswhole and sucks at DMing,so just quit. FOR CHEESES SAKE A CR18 CAN TAKE DOWN ARMYS OF LVL2-5 PCS >_>
danielinthewolvesden 08-07-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Harmor My level 13 character has +21 to Fortitude. Making a DC 21 fortitude wouldn't had been a problem, nor taking 40 points of damage (he has 183 hp). I am confused- was it a party of PC's from levels 2 through 5, or was it a party of PC's including a 13th level???:confused: Ask him to come here and explain. It'd be nice to hear his side.:devil:
Harmor 08-07-04, 07:53 PM	My level 13 character is in another campaign. I was trying to make a point that a my level 13 character wouldn't have a problem with a +21 Fortitude save, but my level 5 rogue in this campaign would with only a +5 to Fortitude saves does have a problem with it.
Cymraegmorgan 08-07-04, 08:25 PM	Unbalanced? It is quite idiotic. It is beyond bad DMing, it is just plain ..........ghastly DMing. Is this normal behavior for your DM? Does he regularly throw this sort of stuff at you? Is he new and has not grasped what CR means? Unless the third question hits the mark, find a new DM.
enailis 08-07-04, 08:46 PM	Originally posted by ChaoticGod Uh, did the DM recently buy the Ghostwalk campaign setting? :confused: It's a campaign setting? err.... mabey he just hates you
Harmor 08-07-04, 09:06 PM	Originally posted by Cymraegmorgan [BIs this normal behavior for your DM? Does he regularly throw this sort of stuff at you? Is he new and has not grasped what CR means?[/B] Nope. That's what's so wierd about it. We started this campaign to be more roleplaying orintated and less min-max/powergamer like our previous campaign.
Cymraegmorgan 08-07-04, 09:20 PM	You should show your DM the total weirdness of that assassin encounter and ask him to "readjudicate" the situation. Maybe he through something at you without thinking. He could always rule the assassin did not kill the party, just incapacitated them, stripped them of their equipment, and left them on a rotting fishing boat at sea with a note, "Stay out of my way." I spend the vast majority of my time DMing, and every once in awhile, I have done something REALLY STUPID, like this assassin thing. Your DM might be embarrassed by this encounter and would welcome any out.
Count Arioch the 28th 08-07-04, 09:23 PM	Sheesh, my players yelled at me for throwing a CR 18 encounter against their 13-15th level PCs. 18th against a few noobs is too much. (Not saying YOU are a noob, I'm referring to your characters, just to make myself clear)
danielinthewolvesden 08-07-04, 11:30 PM	Originally posted by danielinthewolvesden Ask him to come here and explain. It'd be nice to hear his side.:devil: Ok, that cleared that up. But still- let him come here and explain. This - I'd like to hear!:whatsthis :twitch:
YakuzA 08-08-04, 03:15 AM	What kind of tool of a DM would do that? Did your whole party die? Because if your whole party died, it would really suck for the DM, cause he would have put all this effort into the making of the game, just for it to be restarted! That DM = A Tool Get ridda him. --AleX
Kaminton 08-08-04, 06:41 AM	I think it's either: a) Ghostwalk, like someone suggested or b) Plot device (albeit a very heavy handed one...). Are you all dead dead, or just dying dead? Maybe you'll wake up in some prison, or find yourself raised by someone who demands a favor in return. Maybe the guy's a slaver and you wake up chained to the deck of a ship carrying slaves to some evil kingdom, or you're about to be sold to some drow (or whatever the dragonlance equivalent is).
Harmor 08-08-04, 07:08 AM	The wizard and the fighter/cleric are dead. Me (the rogue) and the ranger are still alive.
The Forgotton Slayer 08-08-04, 10:23 AM	Maby you weren't suppose to die? Accidents do happen.
Super Guy 08-08-04, 12:50 PM	Well, Death Attacks aren't accidents, and he should know that it's hard for them to make a DC 21 save vs. death. I'd say it was fairly premeditated. I think it was probably some sort of plot device, but it's a very VERY stupid one. "Hey, guys, I'm going to make this plot by screwing your characters and making you all lose a lot of gold and a level. Good idea, huh?" :nonono:
Harmor 08-08-04, 04:17 PM	I don't know why my party didn't just run. When I was dropped to -5 they should had picked up my body and took off... But I was unconcious and couldn't say anything...
Sensei Gith 08-08-04, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by Starmage21 lol if you had a party consisting of primarily fighters, a stand up fight against an assassin that high in level shouldve been hard, but not impossible, theyre essentially rogues after all. A level 18 assassin has: -18d6 hit points. -BAB +13/+8/+3 -7 feats -3 rogue special abilities that are probably combat-related. He could decloak and pick up a longsword with no sneak attack or poison and wipe the floor with four 5th-level fighters. "He's a rogue" only goes so far.
aka Jimmy 08-08-04, 05:10 PM	Originally posted by Sensei Gith A level 18 assassin has: -18d6 hit points. -BAB +13/+8/+3 -7 feats -3 rogue special abilities that are probably combat-related. He could decloak and pick up a longsword with no sneak attack or poison and wipe the floor with four 5th-level fighters. "He's a rogue" only goes so far. Damn right. A tooled up fighting rogue can mop the floor with a fighter any day.
Curunir 08-08-04, 06:26 PM	It's very rare to stumble across a DM that uses such overwhelming force. While it could be a bad DM who simply flexes his muscles, it might also be a DM who wants to involve you in a greater story. My party of for 2nd level characters was involved just last game session in a battle with literally hundreds of first level orc warriors plus a couple of more powerful npc's and a BBEG that would stop your heart as soon as look at you. We had help but my Dwarven cleric killed 11 orcs himself (though he nearly fell in that battle) and our halfling fighter killed nearly as many. We prevailed through tactics, teamwork and a nice healing staff (wielded by our back up healer). Granted, the DM equipped us nicely. That turned out well but I have been put in situations worse than that, notably when the DM slaughtered our army and snuffed the sun itself, granted he let us live. The point is that we got put in these situations for a much larger payoff later. At some point (unless your DM has really finished of your party which I doubt) you will get to confront this Assasin and take your vengeance, and it will be all the more satisfying because of what he did to you now. I'm being generous. Your DM is probably a petty, self-centered power gamer flexing his newly aquired DMing muscles. Start with the first theory. Even if he killed your entire group off, if you take the high road, your DM might be guilted into ruling that the Assasin didn't really kill off your party and you were either A) Saved by a powerful adventuring party, or B) the Assasin took you prisoner for somebody (remember the Death Attack ability allows you to paralyze your foes as well.) Even so, I'm not sure I would want to game with him.
The Forgotton Slayer 08-09-04, 11:03 AM	Well im planning to killl my pcs with assasins 2... they hate them themselves so il kill them! maby thats what he did! I mean im plannig ahead already what will hapeen after they die! :smirk: :smirk: :smirk:
amoeba 08-09-04, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by aka Jimmy Damn right. A tooled up fighting rogue can mop the floor with a fighter any day. no, a tooled up fighting rogue can't mop the floor with a fighter any day. A tooled up 18th level rogue can mop the floor with a 5th level fighter any day yeah, but so can a 18th level commoner. I say this because I don't want anybody making anymore rogues are overpowered threads.
danielinthewolvesden 08-09-04, 12:49 PM	Let us not go there, OK? I think we all agree that a rogue/assassin can "mop the floor" with just about any ecl 5 PC, so lets not start whipping out builds and saying how much better my build is than yours. That's very OT. Back to our OP- has the DM explained himself, or can you get him to post here?
Rundor The Mighty 08-09-04, 04:23 PM	Get him back by making a new char that is a hulking hurler who throws mountain tops at the assassin for 1000d6+ damage.
tarkin 08-09-04, 04:27 PM	Perhaps your DM thought you would be smart enough to "RUN AWAY!!!!!!!" And throw in the old reliable scream: "HELP!!! ASSASIN!! MONSTER!!!" That is what I would have done if he killed another player without me figuring out anyway to affect him. Party members tend to always think of themselves as invincible. It is not always so.
Harmor 08-09-04, 04:49 PM	I wanted to run away, but I couldn't say anything in character because my character was at -5 and dying...
Cymraegmorgan 08-09-04, 04:54 PM	Since you first posted this thread, have you and the DM discussed the assassin? I would be interested in hearing about anything he/she said.
amoeba 08-09-04, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by tarkin Perhaps your DM thought you would be smart enough to "RUN AWAY!!!!!!!" And throw in the old reliable scream: "HELP!!! ASSASIN!! MONSTER!!!" That is what I would have done if he killed another player without me figuring out anyway to affect him. Party members tend to always think of themselves as invincible. It is not always so. Whats the point of playing if the DM is just going to railroad you with a villain that there is no way of you defeating? Besides, even if the DM's goal was to force the party to run, displaying the futility of the situation and the power of the assasin by randomly killing a PC is a bad way to go about it. There should have been at least some warning as opposed to randomly killing a PC. DM "An arrow hits the fighter and kills him" PC "uh, ok. I try to find the shooter" DM" sorry, you can't find him, now you're dead too" PC " uh...ok" DM "yeah, you were really supposed to run in that situation" PC "what about the guy that died first" DM "sorry, bad luck that the die came up for me to attack him first" yeah, lots of fun. Add to that that if the assasin's goal was really to kill the party, do you really think the level 5 party can escape from the level 18 assasin with DD capabilities? If the DM allowed the party to escape, it would have been very bad roleplaying of the assasin. Sorry, this whole encounter reeks of a DM on a power trip.
DeadEye 08-11-04, 05:39 AM	In one of my games a DM had us fight an epic level wizard (somewhere around level 25-30) at level 10 (one character was level 9). Admittedly, the wizard of our party started the fight. But he fired off a lightning bolt out of the blue without letting us in on what he was doing. It fizzled on the guy's spell resistance. It wasn't really until afterwards that we decided he was full of crap, what with contingencied Fingers of Death, Prismatic Spheres that rather than just appearing, burst out and expanded from the wizard (thus annihilating the lvl9 character)... it was a complete mismatch. And the worst thing is the guy just started destroying all of us despite the fact that our wizard acted without our knowledge. We Got Regulated. And another time,an illithid with enough character levels to make him ECL 24 or so mind blasted everyone in the party but me (as a free action... notice the crappy DM trend, unfortunately we took his word for it at the time), was casting quickened spells and the like as a free action as a sorceror (which was decided after we killed him because the DM didn't want to give us a high level spellbook). I shot him to death as he attempted to brain suck the rogue. Then the DM reduced his ECL because "he's already been in a fight today". How convenient that the guy didn't have any magical items whatsoever either. In our most recent campaign I had to fight a 12th level mage alone with my 8th level psychic warrior, and won because my DM was literally creating the character on the spot in an attempt to beat my ass. We've had problems with him not writing up spell-lists for characters and thus casting the most advantageous spells all the time before. So we asked him if he had a spell list written up. He then said he'd just make him a sorceror. Then he decided to add some sort of metamagic feat to a spell, but we told him sorcerors had to spend a full-round action to cast a metamagic spell. So then I beat him to unconsciousness on my round by hustling over and full-attacking him. Considering he was going to bust out a real-damage spell in what was supposedly a non-lethal competition, I felt justified, even though he was of the opinion that I was going to get walked over (admittedly, if he'd played with any brains, I would have been completely vaporized. It's only due to his own incompetence that I was able to get next to him). Of course, now he's putting me up against a warforged juggernaut that's apparently a higher level than that sorceror was. In a nonlethal competition. You know, what with the 'immune to nonlethal damage' ability and all. Which means that I literally cannot win without being disqualified, which infuriates me to no end. This is also not mentioning the *ahem* true neutral barbarian monk who, through amazing DM male-bovine excreta, retained the ability to rage, that one of my party members was facing, and would have beaten had the guy not gotten extra HP from raging. And he was using action points, although admittedly they are allowed in rare cases. Stupid cheating DM.
Glak 08-11-04, 07:22 PM	a true neutral monk/barbarian can rage. Barbarians do not have to be of chaotic alignment.
Harmor 08-11-04, 08:02 PM	Barbarians can be any non-lawful. Therefore you could have Neutral good, True Neutral as you suggested and Neutral evil. Its just funny that people sterotype barbarians as always being chaotic.
Arcuna 08-11-04, 08:07 PM	Show your DM this thread and make sure that he sees that I said he sucks. EDIT: That goes for anyone who has posted (or plans to post) about having a stupid DM.
DeadEye 08-12-04, 12:22 AM	Originally posted by Glak a true neutral monk/barbarian can rage. Barbarians do not have to be of chaotic alignment. It appears that I've left out the actual point that made this a case of BS. The DM made mention of the character having Monastic Training, a feat from Eberron. So the character started as a monk, switched to barbarian, and was allowed to switch back to monk. Now, barbarians may be any nonlawful, but monks must be lawful. And if he's switched into monk after barbarian, he's switched to lawful, and according to the SRD : A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. This bit will probably get at least a few of you disagreeing, but my reading of that is that once you've switched to lawful, it's a no-way-out road. The rules as they are written don't account for a further switch back into a non-lawful alignment, which raises the question of what happens if the alignment does shift again, and whether the above line can no longer be the case . My reading would be that the barbarian has, in effect, forsaken his non-structured, instinctual nature to re-dedicate himself to learning the monastic ways. If he changes to neutral after that, so be it, but he still doesn't have the ability to rage after being a monk, as he's switched to lawful in the past, and with that... the above statement. I think that reading is fair, as I have a distaste for alignment-swapping: just picking any alignment that you like to fit your needs solely to take advantage of the benefits of any class you feel like possessing. Sure, it's possible for a guy to go from lawful to nonlawful to lawful and back to nonlawful, but I've never seen it happen with a PC to such an extent. It would be frowned upon by my other two DMs, unless there was an ironclad reason for it. I've never needed to switch alignment except in one rare case where the character's personality didn't match his alignment in my mind, and I've never changed more than once. And that didn't make any difference to the character's classes. It is indeed possible to be a raging ex-barbarian monk. However, the DM pretty much let slip that this was not the case in his build. And that's what rings the alarm bells for me. It was really a case of picking up whatever levels the DM wanted at the time, and attempting to support them with a half-baked line of reasoning after questions were raised. The fact that this is only one example in a long and frustrating run of the same behaviour is probably extra evidence that is lost to most of you.
ck2001wendt 08-12-04, 07:57 AM	------------------------- Uh, did the DM recently buy the Ghostwalk campaign setting? -------------------------- :rofl: But seriously....point out to your DM the section on CR...you know, the one where it says that if you throw an enemy at the party 9 or more CR above their average level, you should start questioning your ability to DM? Of course, I plan on throwing a CR 40 Dragon at my party. But they´ve got Dragonlance-esque weapons. And it´s the last battle. And they know a year in advance real time that they´re not all going to survive. In your case, where your DM thorugh an unbalancingly powerful character at you WITHOUT WARNING, then proceeded to kill you...well that´s just BS.