CR question [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fuzzus
07-04-05, 10:33 PM Hey to all out there; I was just wondering what you'd put the DC of these creatures at (modified from 2E for 3.5E):

*~50 HP
*AC around 15-16
*not intelligent (no CDG or intelligent tactics)
*Drop attack (ceiling stalactite monster, dropped from 100 ft, -10 to hit, on hit Fort save DC 25 or die)
*2 claw attacks at ~+3 for 1d6(?) damage each
*auto-grapple on two claw hit, followed by bite attack (same round) for ~1d8
*bite attack sleep poison (1d4 rounds) fort save around 12-13
*free shriek attack every time they take 3 or more damage (DC 10 will save or dazed (-4 to all rolls) for 1d4 rounds)

We just fought three of these things with a party of four lv 3 characters (bard, sorc, paladin, swashbuckler), and the battle ended with paladin incapacitated, swashbuckler at 2 HP, and bard and sorc untouched (but out of spells). Was this a well-balanced encounter for this stage of the game?
Cymraegmorgan
07-04-05, 10:44 PM Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all.
Fuzzus
07-04-05, 10:47 PM Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all.

Point, but the DC 25 insta-kill fort save kind of bugs us as players. That's a hell of a thing to face at level 3 in a low-magic world (my paladin has chainmail, a longbow, a bastard sword, a (now-broken) tower shield, and 1 gp to his name). Our DM is estimating the CR of these bad boys at 2...stretch?

Thanks for the quick reply, Cymraegmorgan -- good to see another NOLA gamer on these boards. :)
celtredleg
07-04-05, 10:59 PM 50 hp seems a bit high for a cr2, but you did get them all. I might call them a bit higher than 2 because of that and the instant death, especialy with the high DC to save.
Cymraegmorgan
07-04-05, 11:37 PM Point, but the DC 25 insta-kill fort save kind of bugs us as players. That's a hell of a thing to face at level 3 in a low-magic world (my paladin has chainmail, a longbow, a bastard sword, a (now-broken) tower shield, and 1 gp to his name). Our DM is estimating the CR of these bad boys at 2...stretch?

Thanks for the quick reply, Cymraegmorgan -- good to see another NOLA gamer on these boards. :)

:tantrum: :rant: :yuck: :banghead: I HATE LOW MAGIC SETTINGS!!

This complicates the issue.
A bit of a stretch, but consider the Vargouille(CR2), with its Shriek and Kiss and poison attacks. But it, the Vargouille, has only a handful of HP.
I would say CR5(i.e. the basilisk) only because of the extraordinary HP combined with the instant death thing.
I would not consider it too off balance given the outcome, but it is a stupid encounter to throw at you in a low-magic setting. Low Magic settings should work both ways, that is if magic is being withheld from the party, this sort of "magical " creature should be a mid to high level encounter. The assumption of CRs is that the party has the average wealth and magic to battle them.
At third level, your average treasure share should be about 3,000gp.
You have equipment worth 290gp, and you have 1gp in your pocket. You have less than ten percent of the average wealth for your level. Made even worse by the fact that you cannot even afford a new shield, a mere 30 gp.
So, all in all, I would say your group was balanced against the encounter, but the encounter sucks, because you are being denied appropriate XP. And the fact you have nothing to show for being third level will make each successive encounter that much more difficult.

As a DM, I would have thrown those, or something similar, at an experienced group of players of third level, but the treasure awaiting them would have been princely, to say the least.
And I would never have expected a third level character to face it without some sort of magic weapon.
Fuzzus
07-05-05, 02:31 AM Thanks for the feedback; time to vent a tad (incoming rant!):

In addition to these "shriekers," we've faced in this single cave complex:

*A door at the end of a narrow passageway that, when we bashed the lock, opened a trap door under us, which we circumvented, but when we opened said door with mage hand, goblins were ready with a BALLISTA (first bolt destroyed my tower shield). We found out, as our swashbuckler made his way down the hallway, that there were two more pits between the door and the goblins. For the curious, we took them down with a grappling hook, a loooong rope, and a full-party yank to crush the ballista.
*16 dire rats. At once. On the edge of a chasm near a rope bridge. I think the DM might have misunderstood "swarm" and took it as the number of CR 1/3 enemies rather than a single entity.
*The troll who "owns" said rope bridge, who we had to bribe to let us across with flesh. The other party members offered to get the corpse of our former rogue, but my paladin wasn't about to let them desecrate the dead and instead offered his left hand. So my paladin is now one-handed.
*A pit trap inside a 2x2 crawlspace. Not so bad....until you consider that the bottom of said pit trap was 500 feet down! Miraculously, no one died -- two of us went down (via featherfall and climbing skills) while two of us squeezed over the pit and ended up back where we came from.
*At the bottom of the crawlspace pit was a room with 8 levers, a door, and instructions written in Draconic on the wall. Since our sorcerer was the only one who knew Draconic and had squeezed past the pit, the swashbuckler decided to pull levers based on d8 rolls. Needless to say, it didn't go well: water began pouring into the room and the bard and swashbuckler were sealed in by a door which they hacked through, breaking their shortswords (yes, shortswords) in the process.

Total experience for the session: about 1000 per character (big 1000 point bonus for me for roleplaying and sacrificing my hand). And remember, low magic environment, and thus far, no treasure to speak of. I don't want it to seem like I'm whining; I appreciate challenging adventures. But this campaign (fourth session was tonight) has been strenuous: we've been wandering the wilderness with absolutely NO safe haven, little equipment, and (I'm convinced) encounters that are most often just a little too hard. We've had 5 PC deaths so far, and we players have agreed that backstory is pointless until we get higher (level 1: "I had parents." level 2: "One was a man.") Only the swashbuckler is still playing his original character, and that's largely thanks to his deific rolls (18 18 15 17 15 16). In my opinion, a good DM offers a balance of carrot and stick, and it seems like all we've been getting is stick. Still, the story is interesting, and I'm usually DMing rather than playing, so I'll be sticking with it. I just had to get all that off my chest. ;)

[Edit for fairness: Our DM is quite good at storytelling and pacing. Sessions keep us on the edge of our seats constantly. This is the first session I've had a real problem with his style, and it's only because I'm tired of being constantly threatened with death/killed and not getting fair rewards for it. Aside from that, every other session I've played with him has been a lot of fun.]
SodaGuy
07-05-05, 02:45 AM Were those monsters on the cieling dropping the stalagtite (sp/right word?)? 'Cause if they were that'd bump the CR.
Fuzzus
07-05-05, 02:49 AM Were those monsters on the cieling dropping the stalagtite (sp/right word?)? 'Cause if they were that'd bump the CR.

They were stalactite-shaped, and dropping themselves. After that, they engaged us hand-to-claw.

(stalactite = ceiling, stalagmite = floor. Remember "c" for "ceiling," "g" for "ground")
Cymraegmorgan
07-05-05, 03:05 AM Your DM really needs to read the DMG, pages 51-56.
No rewards(i.e. treasure) for characters leads to a boring and frustrating campaign.
Next session, you and your party need to balk like an irritable mule. You know, like one of those they use for buggy tours on the Square. Refuse to move from where they are.
After five PC deaths, you have nothing to lose...
When the DM figures out you have staged a sit-in, show him a print out of this thread, then tell him you all prefer a standard campaign with standard challenges and rewards.
Torack
07-05-05, 06:51 AM **** ******!

I know the name of the creature, it's on the tip of my tongue! Gah!

Anyway, tell you're DM to use the following formulae to determine CR of AD&D monsters in the future:

(hps/4.5 +1 or 2 depending on ability)/3

The creature you were facing would be:

50/4.5
+1 for the sleep poison
+1 for the shriek
+2 for the death attack

= 11 +1 +1 +2 = 16/3 = 5 Which is considerably higher then the 2 he placed it at. 3 of these would add up to CR 8 IIRC. Good on you for defeating it. Bad on the DM for not awarding the appropriate experience (1350xp p.p.)

Talk to your DM. Low magic or not, characters should be allowed to locate ample treasure hordes to compliment their lack of magical abilities.
Merestil Haye
07-06-05, 11:29 AM I thought at first that they were Piercers, but those things can only attack by dropping from the ceiling.

As far as balance goes, three CR2 creatures have an EL of about 5. This being two above APL should lead to a tough fight with lots of resources expended. I'd be inclined to suggest they are CR3, giving an EL of about 6, based on the outcome (party completely devoid of spells with one character close to death and another just barely conscious).
Callista
07-06-05, 12:26 PM Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all.The OP didn't kill 'em, just used up all the resources they had.

I would say this was an EL 5-6 encounter.
Fuzzus
07-06-05, 01:15 PM The OP didn't kill 'em, just used up all the resources they had.

I would say this was an EL 5-6 encounter.

Oh, they died, all right. :D But if it wasn't for the bard's countersong and some really lucky rolls, things would've gone much worse for us
Drachasor
07-06-05, 01:37 PM Your DM really needs to read the DMG, pages 51-56.
No rewards(i.e. treasure) for characters leads to a boring and frustrating campaign.
Next session, you and your party need to balk like an irritable mule. You know, like one of those they use for buggy tours on the Square. Refuse to move from where they are.
After five PC deaths, you have nothing to lose...
When the DM figures out you have staged a sit-in, show him a print out of this thread, then tell him you all prefer a standard campaign with standard challenges and rewards.

In fact their losing ground. Their equipment keeps breaking and the Paladin is short a HAND! (and that's not easy to replace, especially in a low magic setting).

This is more than low magic...it's low equipment, money, rest, etc too.

-Drachasor
Maerdash
07-06-05, 01:59 PM We are talking around a CR 6, and this in a game where the paladin is short a hand, a shield, and all the equipment that would make a CR 6 reasonable. Chainmail and a sword at 3rd level? This is why I hate low magic, every time someone starts a lowmagic game it seems like your getting copper for treasure and the only magic item you find in the first 7 levels is a everburning torch. :rolleyes:
My advice is for you to sit down and talk to your dm, tell him yur really enjoying the game on one hand, but on the other hand the lack of funds is getting really frustrating.
Fuzzus
07-06-05, 02:03 PM and the only magic item you find in the first 7 levels is a everburning torch. :rolleyes:

Man, an everburning torch would be awesome. Light sources have been something of a problem. Of course, I'd need someone else to hold it so my paladin could fight....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fuzzus 07-04-05, 10:33 PM	Hey to all out there; I was just wondering what you'd put the DC of these creatures at (modified from 2E for 3.5E): ~50 HP AC around 15-16 not intelligent (no CDG or intelligent tactics) Drop attack (ceiling stalactite monster, dropped from 100 ft, -10 to hit, on hit Fort save DC 25 or die) 2 claw attacks at ~+3 for 1d6(?) damage each auto-grapple on two claw hit, followed by bite attack (same round) for ~1d8 bite attack sleep poison (1d4 rounds) fort save around 12-13 free shriek attack every time they take 3 or more damage (DC 10 will save or dazed (-4 to all rolls) for 1d4 rounds) We just fought three of these things with a party of four lv 3 characters (bard, sorc, paladin, swashbuckler), and the battle ended with paladin incapacitated, swashbuckler at 2 HP, and bard and sorc untouched (but out of spells). Was this a well-balanced encounter for this stage of the game?
Cymraegmorgan 07-04-05, 10:44 PM	Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all.
Fuzzus 07-04-05, 10:47 PM	Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all. Point, but the DC 25 insta-kill fort save kind of bugs us as players. That's a hell of a thing to face at level 3 in a low-magic world (my paladin has chainmail, a longbow, a bastard sword, a (now-broken) tower shield, and 1 gp to his name). Our DM is estimating the CR of these bad boys at 2...stretch? Thanks for the quick reply, Cymraegmorgan -- good to see another NOLA gamer on these boards. :)
celtredleg 07-04-05, 10:59 PM	50 hp seems a bit high for a cr2, but you did get them all. I might call them a bit higher than 2 because of that and the instant death, especialy with the high DC to save.
Cymraegmorgan 07-04-05, 11:37 PM	Point, but the DC 25 insta-kill fort save kind of bugs us as players. That's a hell of a thing to face at level 3 in a low-magic world (my paladin has chainmail, a longbow, a bastard sword, a (now-broken) tower shield, and 1 gp to his name). Our DM is estimating the CR of these bad boys at 2...stretch? Thanks for the quick reply, Cymraegmorgan -- good to see another NOLA gamer on these boards. :) :tantrum: :rant: :yuck: :banghead: I HATE LOW MAGIC SETTINGS!! This complicates the issue. A bit of a stretch, but consider the Vargouille(CR2), with its Shriek and Kiss and poison attacks. But it, the Vargouille, has only a handful of HP. I would say CR5(i.e. the basilisk) only because of the extraordinary HP combined with the instant death thing. I would not consider it too off balance given the outcome, but it is a stupid encounter to throw at you in a low-magic setting. Low Magic settings should work both ways, that is if magic is being withheld from the party, this sort of "magical " creature should be a mid to high level encounter. The assumption of CRs is that the party has the average wealth and magic to battle them. At third level, your average treasure share should be about 3,000gp. You have equipment worth 290gp, and you have 1gp in your pocket. You have less than ten percent of the average wealth for your level. Made even worse by the fact that you cannot even afford a new shield, a mere 30 gp. So, all in all, I would say your group was balanced against the encounter, but the encounter sucks, because you are being denied appropriate XP. And the fact you have nothing to show for being third level will make each successive encounter that much more difficult. As a DM, I would have thrown those, or something similar, at an experienced group of players of third level, but the treasure awaiting them would have been princely, to say the least. And I would never have expected a third level character to face it without some sort of magic weapon.
Fuzzus 07-05-05, 02:31 AM	Thanks for the feedback; time to vent a tad (incoming rant!): In addition to these "shriekers," we've faced in this single cave complex: A door at the end of a narrow passageway that, when we bashed the lock, opened a trap door under us, which we circumvented, but when we opened said door with mage hand, goblins were ready with a BALLISTA (first bolt destroyed my tower shield). We found out, as our swashbuckler made his way down the hallway, that there were two more pits between the door and the goblins. For the curious, we took them down with a grappling hook, a loooong rope, and a full-party yank to crush the ballista. 16 dire rats. At once. On the edge of a chasm near a rope bridge. I think the DM might have misunderstood "swarm" and took it as the number of CR 1/3 enemies rather than a single entity. The troll who "owns" said rope bridge, who we had to bribe to let us across with flesh. The other party members offered to get the corpse of our former rogue, but my paladin wasn't about to let them desecrate the dead and instead offered his left hand. So my paladin is now one-handed. A pit trap inside a 2x2 crawlspace. Not so bad....until you consider that the bottom of said pit trap was 500 feet down! Miraculously, no one died -- two of us went down (via featherfall and climbing skills) while two of us squeezed over the pit and ended up back where we came from. *At the bottom of the crawlspace pit was a room with 8 levers, a door, and instructions written in Draconic on the wall. Since our sorcerer was the only one who knew Draconic and had squeezed past the pit, the swashbuckler decided to pull levers based on d8 rolls. Needless to say, it didn't go well: water began pouring into the room and the bard and swashbuckler were sealed in by a door which they hacked through, breaking their shortswords (yes, shortswords) in the process. Total experience for the session: about 1000 per character (big 1000 point bonus for me for roleplaying and sacrificing my hand). And remember, low magic environment, and thus far, no treasure to speak of. I don't want it to seem like I'm whining; I appreciate challenging adventures. But this campaign (fourth session was tonight) has been strenuous: we've been wandering the wilderness with absolutely NO safe haven, little equipment, and (I'm convinced) encounters that are most often just a little too hard. We've had 5 PC deaths so far, and we players have agreed that backstory is pointless until we get higher (level 1: "I had parents." level 2: "One was a man.") Only the swashbuckler is still playing his original character, and that's largely thanks to his deific rolls (18 18 15 17 15 16). In my opinion, a good DM offers a balance of carrot and stick, and it seems like all we've been getting is stick. Still, the story is interesting, and I'm usually DMing rather than playing, so I'll be sticking with it. I just had to get all that off my chest. ;) [Edit for fairness: Our DM is quite good at storytelling and pacing. Sessions keep us on the edge of our seats constantly. This is the first session I've had a real problem with his style, and it's only because I'm tired of being constantly threatened with death/killed and not getting fair rewards for it. Aside from that, every other session I've played with him has been a lot of fun.]
SodaGuy 07-05-05, 02:45 AM	Were those monsters on the cieling dropping the stalagtite (sp/right word?)? 'Cause if they were that'd bump the CR.
Fuzzus 07-05-05, 02:49 AM	Were those monsters on the cieling dropping the stalagtite (sp/right word?)? 'Cause if they were that'd bump the CR. They were stalactite-shaped, and dropping themselves. After that, they engaged us hand-to-claw. (stalactite = ceiling, stalagmite = floor. Remember "c" for "ceiling," "g" for "ground")
Cymraegmorgan 07-05-05, 03:05 AM	Your DM really needs to read the DMG, pages 51-56. No rewards(i.e. treasure) for characters leads to a boring and frustrating campaign. Next session, you and your party need to balk like an irritable mule. You know, like one of those they use for buggy tours on the Square. Refuse to move from where they are. After five PC deaths, you have nothing to lose... When the DM figures out you have staged a sit-in, show him a print out of this thread, then tell him you all prefer a standard campaign with standard challenges and rewards.
Torack 07-05-05, 06:51 AM	** ****! I know the name of the creature, it's on the tip of my tongue! Gah! Anyway, tell you're DM to use the following formulae to determine CR of AD&D monsters in the future: (hps/4.5 +1 or 2 depending on ability)/3 The creature you were facing would be: 50/4.5 +1 for the sleep poison +1 for the shriek +2 for the death attack = 11 +1 +1 +2 = 16/3 = 5 Which is considerably higher then the 2 he placed it at. 3 of these would add up to CR 8 IIRC. Good on you for defeating it. Bad on the DM for not awarding the appropriate experience (1350xp p.p.) Talk to your DM. Low magic or not, characters should be allowed to locate ample treasure hordes to compliment their lack of magical abilities.
Merestil Haye 07-06-05, 11:29 AM	I thought at first that they were Piercers, but those things can only attack by dropping from the ceiling. As far as balance goes, three CR2 creatures have an EL of about 5. This being two above APL should lead to a tough fight with lots of resources expended. I'd be inclined to suggest they are CR3, giving an EL of about 6, based on the outcome (party completely devoid of spells with one character close to death and another just barely conscious).
Callista 07-06-05, 12:26 PM	Obviously not a balanced encounter if you killed them all.The OP didn't kill 'em, just used up all the resources they had. I would say this was an EL 5-6 encounter.
Fuzzus 07-06-05, 01:15 PM	The OP didn't kill 'em, just used up all the resources they had. I would say this was an EL 5-6 encounter. Oh, they died, all right. :D But if it wasn't for the bard's countersong and some really lucky rolls, things would've gone much worse for us
Drachasor 07-06-05, 01:37 PM	Your DM really needs to read the DMG, pages 51-56. No rewards(i.e. treasure) for characters leads to a boring and frustrating campaign. Next session, you and your party need to balk like an irritable mule. You know, like one of those they use for buggy tours on the Square. Refuse to move from where they are. After five PC deaths, you have nothing to lose... When the DM figures out you have staged a sit-in, show him a print out of this thread, then tell him you all prefer a standard campaign with standard challenges and rewards. In fact their losing ground. Their equipment keeps breaking and the Paladin is short a HAND! (and that's not easy to replace, especially in a low magic setting). This is more than low magic...it's low equipment, money, rest, etc too. -Drachasor
Maerdash 07-06-05, 01:59 PM	We are talking around a CR 6, and this in a game where the paladin is short a hand, a shield, and all the equipment that would make a CR 6 reasonable. Chainmail and a sword at 3rd level? This is why I hate low magic, every time someone starts a lowmagic game it seems like your getting copper for treasure and the only magic item you find in the first 7 levels is a everburning torch. :rolleyes: My advice is for you to sit down and talk to your dm, tell him yur really enjoying the game on one hand, but on the other hand the lack of funds is getting really frustrating.
Fuzzus 07-06-05, 02:03 PM	and the only magic item you find in the first 7 levels is a everburning torch. :rolleyes: Man, an everburning torch would be awesome. Light sources have been something of a problem. Of course, I'd need someone else to hold it so my paladin could fight....