Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aiaru 11-01-06, 11:42 PM	Alright, I got a dilemma here. My GM is toying around with running a more Renaissance Era-esq DnD campaign with correspondingly advanced technology; gunpowder, clockwork devices, and other such things. I'm trying to make a character who is more of the tinker/toymaker in occupation; my DM suggested that I take Craft: Clockwork to represent this. However, we ran into a slight setback. Y'see, to further embellish my character's technological adeptness I wanted to take Disable Device and Open Lock; he's a wiz at assembling/disassembling anything with small(ish) moving parts. Which comes to the setback. During the pre-char-gen discussion my DM suggested that Craft: Locksmith and Craft: Trapmaking would also be along the lines of the theme I was going for. However, even with my 18 Int I was unable to full-rank all of those in addition to the other skills my character possesses. So what's the problem? Well, we got to discussing the nature of traps and whether or not to place more complex mechanical traps under Craft: Clockwork or Craft: Trapmaking. After all, they share many of the same basic mechanical premises and (especially when you involve Disable Device, which allows you to deconstruct/piece togeather existing traps) it could be assumed that one Craft could easily replace the other in certain situations. It would be illogical to have someone who builds more complex items to be incapable of building more simple items, even though he understands both of them well enough to disable them. However, giving the mechanical benefits of Craft: Trapmaking to Craft: Clockwork seemed to be a bit of a cheat; why else would Trapmaking exist in the first place? Sadly, both of us could argue both sides of the dilemma, and neither of us could come to any meaningful resolution. Does anyone else have a better idea? How do you deliniate which ability belongs to which skill? What do you think is the fair scope of Craft: Clockwork anyway, as it isn't a cannon skill? Help would be much appreciated. :)
Tyler Do'Urden 11-02-06, 12:04 AM	Well, that's the risk you take when you start making up new Crafts. You should avoid making new skills at all costs, doing so only when the task at hand is not covered by existing skills. To my mind, Craft (clockwork) would be very specific. It only pertains to things made with clockwork; clocks, watches, simple or small automata, some measuring devices, primitive computers, etc. Traps should basically always be covered by Craft (trapmaking), if only for simplicity. He might also consider transitioning away from the Knowledge skills and start making use of the Science skills (same idea and structure, just more modern, Science (chemistry), Science (physics), Science (anatomy), etc.). EDIT: It occurs to me that a tinker could either have Craft (clockwork) or Profession (tinker), depending on how you want to handle it. A lot of activities like that. Bodybuilding for example; is it Profession (bodybuilder), Perform (posing), or Craft (stupid-big muscles)?
wizarddog 11-02-06, 12:06 AM	It will have to be defined by what you can do with Craft: Clockwork. You might define the clockwork more in the area of mechanics or engineering on a smaller scale-like in also building sextons, spyglass, etc. Since Clockwork in current definition is pretty limited you could combine it with mechanical trapmaking-that way you are limited to traps with mechanism and not the more primative traps. At least you might get a synergy bonus to Trapmaking having ranks in clockwork. Wizarddog
Aiaru 11-02-06, 12:44 AM	Since Clockwork in current definition is pretty limited you could combine it with mechanical trapmaking-that way you are limited to traps with mechanism and not the more primative traps. Well, this skill was mostly intended for flavor and to explain what the heck the character is doing when they aren't out adventuring. Because this setting is more advanced in society and tech, it doesn't quite make sense to be lazing around waiting for a red dragon to land on your village, ya know? :) Of course, the question of "Do mechanical/mechanism-based traps fall under Clockwork or Trapmaking?" is the basic crux of my impass. Synergy could certainly work, though. Also, I believe when White Wolf put out their version of the Ravenloft setting there was a Craft: Clockwork, which covered "making small mechanisms" or something like that.
ressurrector 11-02-06, 02:42 AM	Personally I would allow both craft skills in my game, however I would allow either one to be applied to any construction it could count for. A clockwork trap could use either skill. A non-clockwork trap would be craft trapmaking. A non-trap piece of clockwork would be craft clockwork. In other words, I allow craft skills to overlap, I also give small synergy bonuses if you have multiple craft skills that are applicable to a certain situation (and have taken 5 or more ranks in them).
Reversefigure4 11-02-06, 05:44 PM	However, giving the mechanical benefits of Craft: Trapmaking to Craft: Clockwork seemed to be a bit of a cheat; why else would Trapmaking exist in the first place? It -seems- like a cheat, but look at the actual balance of it. Trapmaking is a long, needlessly expensive, and totally inane skill that a PC will almost never use. PCs tend to take the fight to the enemy, not sit back and reactively wait in their stronghold. Many DMs even just ignore the trap making rules for enemies, because I believe the RAW sets it as over 1000 gp to dig a simple pit trap and cover it. Most bad guys could never afford to have traps. As a PC, you'll likely never use Craft: Trapmaking. Even Craft: Clockworking is mostly going to be flavour. Here's what I'd do: Take no ranks in Trapmaking. Take as many ranks as you like in Craft: Clockwork. You can create clockwork things with it, including traps if you have the time and/or money. You can't, however, create non-clockwork traps. Natural snares and suchlike are beyond the realms of this skill. If you want to penalise the skill a little more, take a -2 to any check involving making traps, because you aren't quite as good at that. You might also consider allowing a +2 synergy bonus to Craft: Clockwork from 5 ranks in Disable Device (but not the other way around, as that leans towards inbalancing).
DarkNick 11-02-06, 06:01 PM	I personally think they are totally different skills - the technology might be the same but the application is different. A furniture maker might be great at making furniture, but they may lack the skills to build a house. Certainly they are able to measure accurately, chop wood, hammer nails etc. and therefore would get a bonus to housebuilding, but they definitly don't have the equivalent skill. Similarly a housebuilder will not know how to build a wooden boat. I think the same approach would apply here. Someone that is good at designing toys is not really going to be able to transpose this into creating things that kill people. The technology might be the same, but the application is very different.
trapspringer 11-02-06, 06:40 PM	I agree with the idea that they should be rolled into one skill. Craft (clockwork) should cover you for all kinds of semi-mechanical traps and such.
ressurrector 11-02-06, 07:43 PM	Possibly just have craft (mechanisms) which applies to anything mechanical. (eg anything which incorporates simple machines)
Toloran 11-02-06, 11:09 PM	It -seems- like a cheat, but look at the actual balance of it. Trapmaking is a long, needlessly expensive, and totally inane skill that a PC will almost never use. PCs tend to take the fight to the enemy, not sit back and reactively wait in their stronghold. Many DMs even just ignore the trap making rules for enemies, because I believe the RAW sets it as over 1000 gp to dig a simple pit trap and cover it. Most bad guys could never afford to have traps. As a PC, you'll likely never use Craft: Trapmaking. Even Craft: Clockworking is mostly going to be flavour. Here's what I'd do: Take no ranks in Trapmaking. Take as many ranks as you like in Craft: Clockwork. You can create clockwork things with it, including traps if you have the time and/or money. You can't, however, create non-clockwork traps. Natural snares and suchlike are beyond the realms of this skill. If you want to penalise the skill a little more, take a -2 to any check involving making traps, because you aren't quite as good at that. You might also consider allowing a +2 synergy bonus to Craft: Clockwork from 5 ranks in Disable Device (but not the other way around, as that leans towards inbalancing). I agree with this most of this. Basically, most of the traps you'll be making with craft (Trapmaking) will be of the stationary type that (unless your group has a base of operations) will be totally useless. Craft (Clockwork) would be more useful because most of the things you can make with it are relatively portable and you can still make some traps (clockwork based ones). However, as with any house ruled skill/ability/etc, it will take a lot of trial and mistakes to get it working properly.
Nizkateth 11-05-06, 11:00 AM	Someone that is good at designing toys is not really going to be able to transpose this into creating things that kill people. Unless they happen to be a french toymaker, and Cenobites are involved... But that was a specific case. :D