Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadowfox628 03-16-06, 06:20 PM	This is my next problem with a new DM, still revolving around the 5-foot square combat system. For those of you who want to know what I've gone over, here's a link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8611191#post8611191 Anyway, yesterday I thought that I had convinced him to stay with the combat system listed in the game. I used 2 reasons (thought one reason had 2 parts), which were both linked, as my first defence against his change. They were: 1) You'll have to teach everyone the new rules 2) a. We have freshmen in the campain (which, conviniently enough, are the newbies to D&D) 2) b. One of the players (experienced). 1) First off, he's forgotten to tell us things before. In the link I put above, one of the Druids used Lightning Storm (I might be wrong about the name). It normally does 5d6 damage, unless there's a storm, in which case it does 5d10. He forgot to tell us that there was a storm going on. Also, I explained to him that if he didn't teach us the rules, he may as well be cheating. I also explained that making up the rules on the spot is, for the sake of arguement, cheating also. 2) a. These kids have either read the book or have been told the book rules many times over. They are having some issues grasping House Rules (one didn't understand that to see if your attack is a Crit (auto-hit, not extra damage), it was in your base roll, and that the extra damage was made through a second roll). This was a perfectally reasonable. 2) b. It may seem that I'm going tough on her, but, quite frankly, I have many issues with her. I could complain about them all, but I'll tell you what you need to know: she's asked what a Spell Component Pouch does. She couldn't grasp the idea of "one set of domain spells a day." Anything that wasn't done the way a DM before her has done (she really liked the DM as, well, a DM), she'll complain about it. ("Well, X did it this way." "Well, X did lots of puzzles." So on, and so forth). She doesn't even read spell descriptions (she's tried to use Greater Command to order targets to die). So, this morning, he says that he'll stick with the 5-foot square combat system. I was relieved. Afterschool however, he hands me a paper, saying that 4 medium-sized creatures can fit into a 5-foot square, and has other sizes for creatures of other sizes. I look at it, and I say to myself "He's just creating 2.5x2.5 squares." Well, I start the arguement again. I use my right arm as an example, measuring one of the sides of a square in a hallway. My right arm is about 2'7.5" (yes, I measured... My left arm is 2'8"), and said that a set of 4 squares was, roughly, what was done in D&D. He agreed. I then explain that it's perfect. He disagrees. He only sees the fact that more than 1 person can fit inside of it. So, basically, his combat system says that we're standing still, but he acknowledges the fact that we're moving around. He says a 2.5 sqaure will be fine, but he doesn't know what he's doing. He's getting rid of the purpose of Improved Unarmed Fighted, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and other such feats that stop attacks of oppurtunity. Also, he's either downsizing our range for melee (essentially saying the we have no swords, but we are using swords) or increasing out Threatened Area, converting a medium-sized creture into, in a sense, a large-sized creature (in terms of reach). This has many problems. For example, I could easily make a Swashbuckler that specializes in the Spiked Chain. My threatened area (if base melee reach is still 5 feet) will be 10 feet, allowing me to attack several times more enemies than normal. I don't think there's any getting to him. There's been one person helping me, and the DM won't listen to him, so, essentially, I've been repeating what my friend says to the DM (though not saying that its from my friend). I'm running out of ideas, and he doesn't see the facts about things. I need ideas, please. If this continues much longer, I'm going to quit the campain (and, honestly, I don't want to).
Dragonsblood 03-16-06, 06:49 PM	Here's the obvious question I'm sure everyone who reads this is thinking: Why don't you DM?
shadowfox628 03-16-06, 07:03 PM	About a month or two ago, I ended my campain (I can improvise with 4-6 people, but with a dozen? They never listened), and I gave my campain day to him (we do it afterschool). First off, I don't want to go up to him and essentially say "I'm annexing your campain until you understand the combat system." Secondly, he, as I did (he was in the first campain I DMed), is improvising, not going by many notes (a few boss stats, but that's really it). Thirdly, it's a club. I'd probibly have to get the support of the majority of the club officers (I'm one of them, and he's another officer, but that leaves 2 or 3 left). Fourthly, I wouldn't exactly be welcomed with open arms.
CloudWalker 03-16-06, 08:06 PM	May I suggest you drop the combat system altogether? Our DMs in the past (and I, in my own campaigns) have rarely, if ever, used the grid combat systemas it may lead to trivial talks about technicality and errors. We prefer going for an easy, rapid-flowing game (not, perhaps, storyline-wise, but as far as the ease of combat is concerned). The second option is to, from now on, if you're fighting an enemy, always say that you're standing double the distance away that you would normally be standing. You should be able to convince him of the flaw in his logic. The man appears to lack any knowledge of physical science whatsoever. You might simply print off all the reasoning that people have given you (omitting your own posts, of course), and then present that to him. I wouldn't advise "learning to live with it," but it's your choice. Seriously, though, he's not the best DM.
Shinryouga 03-16-06, 08:15 PM	Ultimately, D&D should be majority rules. If you have five players, and two don't show up to game, you still play, the majority is there. Its not neccessarily fair, but its less rude to the people who showed up than telling them to go home because other people din't show. Movie theaters don't cancel shows because only half the seats are full, at least not the first time. So, if the majority of people aren't having fun in his game, then the majority of people should say so. Just because you don't agree with a person's DMing style doesn't mean that you, or him for that matter, are a horrible person. It just means that you feel you deserve to enjoy the time you are putting aside for this hobby. Theres my uplifting comment; here's my harsh other-side-of-coin. I am a DM. I have DMed for 14 years, with second edition roots (I still refer to the "company" as TSR, not Wizards of the Coast). I've seen the changes from 2nd to 3.0 to 3.5 and houserule tweaked it to 3.9 on my own. But I KNOW the rules. If I don't know a rule, I CALL WIZARDS OF THE COAST AND ASK. I make an average of three TSR Calls (see above comment) a week. I also spend about 4 hours prepping for each session, some of it in my head, most of it in front of my computer. Put bluntly, I put effort into being a fair, knowledgable, creative, and most importantly, fun DM. And according to my play group, I've succeeded. And despite their accolades, I know I'm still learning, still improving, and can always "do even better". I'm not saying you need to take it as seriously as I do (I know I take it more seriously than most). But this game is a hobby. Anyone who plays it needs to ask themselves how much they want to put into it as a hobby. I'm aiming at putting profesional effort into it, because I want to be a game designer, author, what have you. I have players who simply want to play it for recreation, but still take it seriously as rules system. The few times we have had players who take it considerably less seriously, two things have happened: they quit or were asked to leave, or they upped the ante and took it more seriously. Each gaming group has its own atmosphere, its own ecology. The best groups are the ones where everyone has a similar desire from the game. Its the extension of the "hack and slash" vrs. "role-playing" arguments. Some groups want this, some want that, some want both, some want neither. But a group is best when what it gives is what everyone wants. Sorry, got kind of carried away. Hope it helps, hope it doesn't hurt. Nothing was said with intent to offend, only with intent to assist and push towards growth, be it as a person, player, DM, or whatever. Just my two coppers.
Karma 03-16-06, 09:40 PM	While 4 people can fit in a 25 square ft space does not mean that it is practical in a melee situation that is not a grapple. If you have access to the fencing clubs gear and some blue masking tape, get bunch of people together and put together a practical demonstration of the function of the 5 ft square. If all else fails get him to recognize that a spell that is supposed to affect one square still only affects one square. You cannot scale down one aspect of the combat system without scaling down the areas of affect. If he wants to turn 5 feet into 2.5 ft demand that he stay consistant and do so accross the boards, that includes references to base land speeds, vision, range of weapons etc. It is all based on the arbitrary increment of 5 feet. Ultimately, he should realize that it is less work for him to If he doesn't get it, refuse to play his game because he is screwing with the core movement and combat mechanics of the game and breaking them. I would think that as someone who is good at math and a member of the fencing club he would realize that in any system, before you start bending and breaking the rules, you have to first learn how they function and relate to eachother. Otherwise you will end up with an equation that doesn't add up, or repeated losses in a fencing tourniment.
DaMullet 03-16-06, 10:35 PM	Or, you could go with his squares, but then argue your Base Land Speed. DM: OK, you can't reach him, he's 7 squares away. You: But my base land speed is 30 feet, and each square is only 2.5 feet! I can go 12 squares. DM: Buhwha... :confused: You: *Rolls a fancy flavored attack roll and kills BBEG* Or something like that. IMO, when the DM starts getting uppity, it's your JOB as a player to exploit his errors and put him in his place. I say that as a DM, not as a player, even though I am a player in two other campaigns.
zlatko 03-18-06, 09:15 AM	Wait! A dozen people?! Why?! Why not just split into tho groups? That would be manageable at least. Just DM yourself. Ditch the stubborn kid. If he doesn't listen to reason nor abides by the rules - just go. I just envisioned a group of a hundred fighters in 2'5" squares fighting. They wouldn't be using weapons, just twitching violently :D Have him watch that gladiator movie, see how they stand off. Oh, you walked away? Good for you.
Azezel 03-18-06, 10:46 AM	Didn't you say this DM sort fenced? Well, you get hold of a foil and stand 28 inches away from him and let's see how ell either og you fight. Once he realises the difficulty of using swords at kissing range he will be forced to go back to the books. Also, have you cinsiderted merely rolling up at the session and saying 'Evnin' chaps - the DM's an idiot, how'd you like to play in my game?' I suggest you be a little more politic, but if the DM is as bad as you imply, you will have no shortage of players.