Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anon Amoss 05-23-04, 09:06 AM	Help please. In our current campaign the whole party has been transported to an abandoned desert fortress, minus all our equipment and clothing. We are using some old cloth we've found for clothing, and some old discarded bronze weapons to defend ourselves. Togas don't make for good armour though. Our biggest problem is that the 2 clerics and a paladin in the group don't have holy symbols anymore. This makes it impossible to cast some spells and to turn undead. How do you create a holy symbol from stone, old bits of wood and using little to no tools???? Using 3rd ed rules... Any suggestions ????? Help us please!! Our DM keeps laughing and throwing undead at us.
zerpentor 05-23-04, 09:18 AM	well first you need to tell everyone what the symbols should look like? is it crosses, cloth masks, 5point stars, crescent moons? some holy symbols should be easy enough to make others would be harder. sounds like the DM is enjoying himself and is trying to "win" =P
Anon Amoss 05-23-04, 09:25 AM	Good question, the holy symbol for one cleric is a Knights Helm, the other a Forge Hammer. An addition to the question is, does it need anything special done to it once it is created. i.e consecrated or blessed ?? Unfortunately both of these require a divine focus (holy symbol) to cast them. :-)
zerpentor 05-23-04, 09:37 AM	My group plays Darksun where the clerics pray to the elements for their spells, but still need holy symbols which is open flame for fire clerics, a handful of dirt/rock for earth and so on.. we have no requirement for the fire or dirt to be blessed, consecrated or anything like that. It should be enough for the symbol to resemble the real holy symbol, it's not like the cleric stops believing in the god because the holy symbol is not made from the the finest material.
simen_88 05-23-04, 09:43 AM	Well, I'd say the holy symbols should be blessed, but a bit of prayer might also do if you're not at very low levels or have an unforgiving god. The helm is probably not the easiest thing to make, but the hammer should do fine. It's basically just a stick with something the appropriate shape in the end.
DrMorganes 05-23-04, 02:51 PM	At its most elemental, a holy symbol (in my opinion) can be drawn on a scrap of cloth. From a DM's perspective (mine), how simple this is would be entirely based on the concept of the adventure. If the entire point is to get you to go through something sans magic, nothing you do will work. Period. If I'm merely working on your ability to adapt to unusual circumstances, I'd allow it under the following "rules": You need to purify yourself. An uninterrupted 8-hour session of fasting and prayer would probably suffice. Make a craft check vs a DC of 15 (and probably with a -2 modifier for lack of proper tools) to create a holy symbol that will hold up under typical adventurer use. Failure per normal crafting rules, though I'd probably replace the monetary cost with time to represent foraging enough materials to try again. Another 8-hour fast/prayer session directly intreating your diety to bless your creation. At the end of this time, I'd call for a Knowledge (Religion) check vs a DC of 15 to represent your how well you phrase your prayers. (Some DMs may consider Spellcraft here instead, as divine casters essentially use a mishmash of prayer and arcane knowledge to create new spells.) If successful, congrats - you now have a usable, if somewhat primative, holy symbol. If you fail, you need to re-purify (as above) and try again. Essentailly, you need to pray until you get your diety's attention. I'd allow you to take 10 on these rolls, but not 20.
Sphyre 05-24-04, 02:03 AM	Originally posted by zerpentor sounds like the DM is enjoying himself and is trying to "win" =P Heh, in that case where is his army of balors? heh. I wouldn't be so quick to judge, although he's certainly having fun. I haven't had fun doing anything like that yet... must do that someday :P
simen_88 05-24-04, 07:35 AM	I'm not sure if he is trying to win. This may be a test of the characters and of you in some way. Certain deities like to test their followers strenght sometimes, taking away their advantages to know their true strenghts.
Anon Amoss 05-24-04, 10:07 AM	Thank you all for you many insights. We've decided to try the simple "we have faith" approach and scratch out our holy symbols from some available sand stone and pray to our respective deities for their blessings. If this doesn't work we'll try the more elaborate suggestions. By the way we're all about 9th level and it's amazing how challenging a group of 2nd to 3rd level skeletons are when you only have a piece of cloth for armour and an old dagger as a weapon. Remember NO spells or Turning. I won't go into details about the small blue dragon we first encountered (minus even the old dagger). OUCH!!! The Run feat never looked so good. Remember, you don't have to out run a blue dragon, just the other party members... It's funny seeing the fighters, fighting over an old bronze rapier and a pair of old leather boots. They only compensation is that the female Paladin is wearing a short toga. :D Keep the suggestions coming, as you can see we need all the help we can get. ps. I don't think our gods are testing us, it's just the DM having a damn good time. pps. God I miss my +3 Chain Mail, +2 Bastard Sword and Rod of flailing... ppps. The mage is really ******!!! No spell book!!!
tarkin 05-24-04, 04:37 PM	The Sage has previously stated that a Holy Symbol painted on armor or a shield is sufficient. As such, I would cut myself and draw my holy symbol on my cloathing in my own blood. Of course, I am currently playing an Evil PC.
Sensei Gith 05-24-04, 04:42 PM	My runecaster's holy symbol is an arcane mark (a divine version that looks like your deity's symbol) on a large shield.
simen_88 05-25-04, 08:05 AM	I plan on playing a cleric of Nerull who has a holy symbol scarred into his chest (or even better; the chest of an infant).:angel: :angel: :angel:
SoldierOfFortune187 05-25-04, 09:46 AM	Originally posted by tarkin ...I would cut myself and draw my holy symbol on my cloathing in my own blood. Of course, I am currently playing an Evil PC. Then wouldn't it be more fitting to use someone else's blood? >:) Still, anything that even roughly resembles the holy symbol of your deity should be useful in this instance, so long as its created with reverence and properly dedicated to your god/goddess. I don't know your situation, but if there are any arcane spellcasters, consider yourself getting off lighter then them as I'm sure your DM hasn't thoughtfully provided material components for most of their spells (though most chicken out and use Eschew Materials feat for everyone).
simen_88 05-25-04, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by SoldierOfFortune187 [B]Then wouldn't it be more fitting to use someone else's blood? >:)B] Depends on the deity. Some consider a personal offer worth more, but as I just said, infants are good for this.:D
Anon Amoss 06-01-04, 09:21 AM	Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. We've (the clerics and paladin) decided to go with the simple course first. Will try a religion skill check to see if we can get guidance. Failing that will scratch out our holy symbols in wood and see if it works. If that fails we'll try the more elaborate measures mentioned in this thread. Thanks again.
Edward 06-01-04, 07:42 PM	Before you start ask your DM what your characters know about the construction of holy symbols. Edward