Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Argent 03-14-05, 12:11 AM	Recently my DM assigned me to build a stronghold for our party using any 3.0-3.5 material available. Our party reached 20th level last gaming session and has a few evil artifacts that we're waiting to destroy or use as barganing chips. Because no one wants to lug these evil magic items around (one is rather intelligent), we want to store them in the vault in our keep. My main problem is protecting against an evil wizard or cleric locating the vault and casting Mordenkainen's Disjunction followed up with Disintegrate to get through any of the locks/doors in the way. I can layer enough effects to prevent location, scrying, and disintegration, but I cannot find anything that would allow me to protect against one well placed disjunction. The party has 2.8 million gold to work with in designing the stronghold. I'd like to keep the vault cost near or below 1/10th of that. Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated. P.S. The "salted earth" tactic of placing the artifacts in the vault such that they would likely be subject to disjoining, and thus also subject to evil dieties arriving to punish the caster is one that I would rather avoid.
tindin 03-14-05, 01:25 AM	look for the spell genesis lvl 9 sor/wiz dont rember where it is though but if you find it it should be just what your looking for to keep things out of the hands of others
BladeBoy 03-14-05, 02:13 AM	it's also a cleric spell. It's Creation 9 in Defenders of the Faith, and the 9th level ability of one of the PrCs in manual of the plane, i forget the one, it's the only d4 HD one. plus it grows kinda slow. ending at about 180ft, and then you gotta cast it again each time you wanna add 360ft spheres to it. and it has a Xp cost.
Thorak 03-14-05, 08:21 AM	Solution to all your problems; Permanent Anti-magic Field. If the vault's bigger than the radius, surround it with them. Then, make the vault itself out of Adamantium. No need to enchant it at all, because it's nigh-mmune to everything. Edit; I know you can't use Permanency with AMF. There's no reason you can't create, say, a Masterwork Adamantium Bolt of AMF, though, using the rules for magical items. The price, IIRC, is something close to 200k gold, so you could easily afford a few with your money. Especially if your mage can make them, since that's retail and it'll cost them half that.[/edit] AMF only has a 1% chance per caster level of being knocked down by Mord's Disjunction. And if you really want to tick the mage off, have some items with permanent AMF cast on them lying close to where the original spells were cast; when the initial AMF goes down, the new one is still there; nothing within a Disjuncted AMF is affected by the Disjunction. This also deals with any problems of people trying to get in through Etheralness or magical means of travel. And if you really want to get nasty, coat the outside of the adamantium walls with Walls of Force and/or Prismatic Walls. They're unaffected by AMF, and will make life really nasty for anything that does try to get through, by nullifying any damage dealt, and causing whatever it is to very likely die since their magical protections are gone (including any supernatural DR...) Would this be completely impenetrable? No. But there'll always be a whole somewhere, and you'll always be vulnerable to a truly concerted effort. But it's a darn good start, especially if your mage can handle the spells so there's noone out there to detail the actual defenses for enemies.
Draco Strang 03-14-05, 09:26 AM	Hell...just use the standard "10x10 room with a single chest guarded by an orc" approach. The results are worth it. Cookie to anyone who can point out the reference.
Osiris Memnoch 03-14-05, 10:42 AM	Wow that's a lot of gold at your disposal. I would commision someone to make a golem or twelve to put in the vault. Preferably a mixed bunch so that you couldn't take them all out with one correct spell. Check out Monster Manuels 2 and 3 for some crazy golem types. Also theres the crystal golems in Faerun. I'm a big fan of the diamond golem. They're most vulnerable not to fire, cold, or whatever. They're most vulnerable toa monk's ki strike. I'd like to see a wizard with that!
rhflyweyr 03-14-05, 10:57 AM	My advice is dont risk anything that the DM can (and probably will) screw you over with. Your best option is to just stick them in a portable hole and take them with you.
Dalin 03-14-05, 11:05 AM	What about casting inprisonment or a version of that spell on the vault in a safe room, where you have all your normal magical protections.
Evil Wizard 03-14-05, 12:52 PM	The best defense against theft is secrecy. Nobody can even begin to think about breaking into your vault if they don't even know its there. A quick perusal of divination spells shows that simply lining the entire stronghold with lead will foil most any attempts to peek inside. There is the problem of discern location, but I notice it has a clause that says you have to have touched an object once to use this spell. As long as none of these bad guys have ever touched the evil artifacts, no amount of scrying will tell them where they are. So, the best solution is to stow these evil artifacts someplace that is extremely inconvenient to reach. Bury the whole thing deep in the ground (laced in lead, of course) and use stone shape to cover it up. Put the kitchen right above the vault, concealing the location with a mundane room. On second thought, maybe not the kitchen. Don't really want the food preparation area sitting on top of a cache of evil artifacts... Access the vault only with teleport, wearing a Necklace of Adaptation and with the mind blank spell in effect. As long as you never, ever show anybody else your sooper sekrit vault, it cannot be teleported into by anyone else. If you really want to make sure nobody gets lucky with greater teleport, make several false vaults, all designed differently. Design the real vault to strange specifications so that nobody will be able to even guess at what it looks like. And while you're at it, stick a golem in there for good measure.
Argent 03-14-05, 01:02 PM	After reading up on Imprisonment, that might be the way to go. I'd need to make the creature being imprisoned have a perptual sequester effect first so that they couldn't be found by divination. Any suggestions? My other thought was using Spell Engines in conjunction with Energy Transformation Field around the vault. Provided Spell Engine was strong enough to absorb Mord's Disjunction and the Energy Transformation Field could disipate any disintegrate spell aimed at the Spell Engine, I could keep the the core defenses (Prismatic Shell, Greater Globe of Invulnerability-from sigils of supression, and Sequester-From inscription of concealment) functioning. This is all predicated on the ability of a Spell Engine to withstand Mord's Disjunction. Some form of infinite or near infinite counterspelling of Mord's Disjunction would be ideal. The current wording of Elminster's Effulgent Epuration (in PGtF) is nearly there on being able to dispel Disjunction, but unfortuantely it doesn't counteract area of effect spells, only targeted ones. Re: Genesis. Does the demi-plane you create keep out everyone else, or can ayone who knows about it planeshift there? Use an astral portal? Gate? RE: Antimagic field The problem with this spell is that I believe high level divinations can get through it and it would prevent sequester from functioning. It also only offers a probability of protection from Mord's Disjunction, not a guarantee. It further requires that you switch to solely mechanical protections, as most magical ones no longer would work. RE: Golems-Good idea, but they get to be quite costly, quite fast. They are more of a back up defense than a front line. The intruder has already entered the vault before reaching the golem, and a quick smash and grab, prevents the golem from just repeating the smash, smash, smash on the intruder. I understand that any vault can be broken into, especially since the "good guys" need to be able to store and remove things, but I want to make it as secure as possible, with that in mind. Thanks for the suggestions so far, please keep any more ideas flowing this way. P.S. Draco: Monte Cook's Orc & Pie.
Thorak 03-14-05, 02:41 PM	RE: Antimagic field The problem with this spell is that I believe high level divinations can get through it and it would prevent sequester from functioning. It also only offers a probability of protection from Mord's Disjunction, not a guarantee. It further requires that you switch to solely mechanical protections, as most magical ones no longer would work. Sure, they can see your vault, but they can't get in. And I'd say that if they're trying to Scry something they know is in there, it would fail, because it's in the AMF. Mord's Disjunction is the only weakness, and you're never going to get something impenetrable. Things like the Portable Hole mentioned are just as vulnerable, and you really better hope nothing finds it's way to your pocket plane. As for purely mechanical protections; unless they have MD, they're restricted to purely mechanical means of breaching them. And considering Wall of Force makes it immune to damage, it doesn't matter if they send an Adamantium Golem in there to beat it down, it won't do a darn thing even if it's there for 3,000 years. If we start talking too epic, then you're going to run into enemies that can call on demon princes or even deities for help breaching the vault. There's no way you can make it invulnerable. Just make it as uncomfortable as possible.
mcnoo 03-14-05, 09:11 PM	Buy a building in town, make it in 10'think walls made of layers of steel, wood, stone, glass and any other interesting materials you can get your hands on, stick an antimagic field in it, make sure there's no sewers near it, do the floor and celing up the same as the walls. Around this, build a large, fancy new Watchhouse and donate it to the city's guards. You now have a very hard to crack strongbox with a good guard force. Don't put your loot in this. Instead fill it with the most evil array of traps you can, as many as you can possibly fit in the small space. Buy an item giving you a burrow speed and secretly put all your loot under a hill somewhere in the countryside. Cast undetectable aura on all your kit if you want to be fancy. Never walk to this secret vault, always teleport to a small underground room you've hollowed out and burrow from there.
ShadowDragon8685 03-15-05, 01:40 AM	Well, okay... It's very simple. Put the artifacts within a portable hole. put the portable hole inside a vault that should be lined with one foot thick lead, which is itself encased with five foot adamantium, and another two inches of lead, for good measure. Create a negative pressure in the vault, and suspend a Bag of Holding above the hole. If anyone ever bursts in, they will create a positive pressure, send the bag of holding into the portable hole. I think we all know what happens next.
mbfu3k 03-15-05, 04:38 AM	1) Use Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domainsAndSpells.htm%23genesis) to create a demiplane. 2) Build a portal to this demiplane, with a solid iron hatch that locks in place on the demiplane side. 3) Craft a golem, with a special amulet tied to the golem that allows you to communicate with the golem from any plane. Make it keyed to your fingerprint. When you create the golem, give it the command to keep the iron hatch locked at all times, unless you give a specific password through the amulet. Put the golem in the demiplane. 4) Cast a permanent Zone of Respite (from MoTP) filling the demiplane. (If you're not using MoTP, you can perhaps substitute Dimensional Lock , Forbiddance, Antimagic Field, etc. Basically, anything to make it so the existing portal is the only way to get in.) Now you have a demiplane where the only way to get in is via the existing portal. However, while the iron hatch blocks the demiplane side, the portal does not function. Thus, there is no (non-diety level) way of getting in to the demiplane, except by getting the golem to open the hatch. And you've got that covered with the three essentials of security: something you have (amulet), something you are (fingerprint), and something you know (password). And if you ever decide you simply wish to seal off the artifacts, you can destroy the portal from the outside.
Vatras 03-15-05, 04:57 AM	Here is the easy way form 1st Edition (you have to be a wizard): - Go into your strongholds cellar when nobody is around, while you have Mindblank on. - Check for creatures with True Seeing and cast Circle of Death (getting rid of all small vermin). This is to make sure that nobody is watching the non-magical way. - If your DM allows for vertical Passwalls in the ground, dig down a hundred feet. Else become a xorn (or other creature that can move in earth and stone) and go down (this may require some metamagic feats now to cast spells as xorn). - In the depth create a hollow sphere either digging or disintegrating. - Cast Prismatic Sphere and make it permanent. You have now a room known only to you without physical access, surrounded by the strongest ward in the PHB (one of the layers blocks divinations, btw). The idea was worked out by my players then when they wanted the same as you. The whole thing was a little more elaborate, as they wanted a little more than just a treasure room, but you get the general idea.
Thantrax 03-15-05, 05:02 AM	Way back when I first got my hands on the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, I undertook this task knowing it would likely happen to me one day. If only I could find the exact notes... the thing came out got be about 700k GP. Here are the basics. The entire vault is one strong hold space. That is VITAL to keeping the cost down. Each wall of this space is built using ethereal stone. Each wall is also layered with a wall of force, and layered on the inside with adamantine. The entire structure is also given the burrowing power and set to wander the underdark at completely random intervals. Combined with that anti-scrying spell (can't think of the name) and you should be pretty in the clear for keeping it safe. But how do you access it if it randomly moves? You have to build a portal. The portal is going to have to be in a city. But portals come with a neat little trick. A portal can be made to work only for the one who built the portal and the people attuned to it. Attune your party to it and the only person you will have to trust is this wizard, who will need to be 18th level to make the portal. There is even a spell in that book that wizards can use on themselves to make them forget what they built, if you are worried about post-security. The next phase, layer wall that the portal is on with a Prismatic Wall. When the people step through the portal, they'll be hit by the wall with no chance to see it coming, no room to react. Again, this wall comes with a clause that you can attune people to it, so attune your party. Finally, stock your vault and enjoy! I hope that was close enough. If anyone can see flaws in this security (short of a deity's intervention) please speak up.
Evil Wizard 03-15-05, 10:37 AM	Combined with that anti-scrying spell (can't think of the name) and you should be pretty in the clear for keeping it safe. It's called line everything with lead. In all seriousness, I went and looked up all the divination spells. Unless a spellcaster makes a really, really good guess at where you've stashed the artifacts such that he can pinpoint their location with a yes or no answer (in other words, not likely) commune/contact other plane are of no help. The remaining divinations are all blocked by lead save discern location, and that one only works under specific circumstances. The best they can do is narrow it down to the vicinity of your stronghold. As long as you've got your vault stashed someplace really strange - again, preferably teleport only - all you really need to ward against is the villains trying to raze the whole structure to the ground. High level magical villains are a potent force to try and keep out, but remember the KISS principle: Keep It Simple Stupid. Moving vaults and portals to demiplanes sound fun in theory, but they run the risk of getting unmagaeably complicated. Lead walls and lots of mind blank spells are cheap and effective.
psionichamster 03-15-05, 12:00 PM	6 walls of force, in a cubic form place artifacts in there move (somehow...you're epic, and im not) to center of sun forget you put them there problem solved (negative side effect: you can't get them, either...but if they're evil icky naughty bit artifacts, you don't WANT to use em, do you?) namaste, the hamster ps...why not just give them back to the evil deity who would be p***ed you' d broken them? h
BladeBoy 03-15-05, 02:14 PM	sure a evil deity would be mad, but a good deity would be overjoyed, so if one attacks, i'm sure the good one would help out.
Maerdash 03-15-05, 03:05 PM	just something i think might be worth considering. Research a version of the rope trick spell that is permanent, rope trick stops scrying unless the scrying can function across planar borders, the spell creates a "extradimensional space outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (planes)", spells do not funtion unless they can cross planar bondaries, area effects dont cross the border, and the "window" leading into the space is invisible.So how about this. Make a room within your treasury, EXACTLY 1 inch wider in every dimension than an antimagic field,cast your permanent rope trick where the opening is in/on the ceiling and therefore out side the effect of the antimagic field, then make a trap(spells can be keyed to traps)that activates an antimagic field whenever any creature enters the room(youll need to use the trues seeing trigger option given in the dmg to handle ethereal/invisible creatures), make sure you pay to have the trap reset so that anyone still in the room triggers the trap again just as soon as it goes down. For the rest of the treasury use the other ideads posted here to make just GETTING to the place were you store the artifacts as deadly as possible.
Vanigo 03-15-05, 05:49 PM	It's called line everything with lead. In all seriousness, I went and looked up all the divination spells. Unless a spellcaster makes a really, really good guess at where you've stashed the artifacts such that he can pinpoint their location with a yes or no answer (in other words, not likely) commune/contact other plane are of no help. The remaining divinations are all blocked by lead save discern location, and that one only works under specific circumstances. Except for find the path; that'll still work.
Capt. Pixel 03-15-05, 06:04 PM	Solution to all your problems; Permanent Anti-magic Field. If the vault's bigger than the radius, surround it with them. Then, make the vault itself out of Adamantium. No need to enchant it at all, because it's nigh-mmune to everything. Edit; I know you can't use Permanency with AMF. ....... One word - WISH! :cool:
kliate 03-15-05, 06:17 PM	Way back when I first got my hands on the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, I undertook this task knowing it would likely happen to me one day. If only I could find the exact notes... the thing came out got be about 700k GP. Here are the basics. The entire vault is one strong hold space. That is VITAL to keeping the cost down. Each wall of this space is built using ethereal stone. Each wall is also layered with a wall of force, and layered on the inside with adamantine. The entire structure is also given the burrowing power and set to wander the underdark at completely random intervals. Combined with that anti-scrying spell (can't think of the name) and you should be pretty in the clear for keeping it safe. But how do you access it if it randomly moves? You have to build a portal. The portal is going to have to be in a city. But portals come with a neat little trick. A portal can be made to work only for the one who built the portal and the people attuned to it. Attune your party to it and the only person you will have to trust is this wizard, who will need to be 18th level to make the portal. There is even a spell in that book that wizards can use on themselves to make them forget what they built, if you are worried about post-security. The next phase, layer wall that the portal is on with a Prismatic Wall. When the people step through the portal, they'll be hit by the wall with no chance to see it coming, no room to react. Again, this wall comes with a clause that you can attune people to it, so attune your party. Finally, stock your vault and enjoy! I hope that was close enough. If anyone can see flaws in this security (short of a deity's intervention) please speak up. 1. Wish the wizard's memory back 2. Dominate the wizard to "Go fetch the artifacts and bring them to me." or: 1. Analyze the Portal. 2. Build a new Portal to a position 5 feet further into the vault than the existing one. 3. Fly into your new portal with epic-strength protections, just in case.
minowicz 03-15-05, 07:19 PM	Greater planar ally to call a Planetar Ask him to keep them safe for a year on a positive energy plane with the rest of his Army. Keeping evil artifacts out of evils hands would be a good aligned task so he would probably do it for cheap. and if anything can get past him and his buddies they desirve the artifacts because they are gods
green_yawgmoth 03-15-05, 08:31 PM	Get a Living Vault out of the ELH. 96 HD construct that imprisons and sequesters anything you want to put in it, then planeshifts to the edge of the astral plane. It can only be recalled by you, and the only thing it will respond to other than you you is a clone of you. I figured the price out to be about 1.2 million gp to buy one and have it keyed to you upon completion, but it would be a DM call, in all honesty. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Argent 03-16-05, 05:13 PM	Thanks everyone for the ideas. It is great to see what a few good minds can come up with. Since my party can't afford the protections of a living vault (I'm trying to keep the budget under or near 250,000 GP) I think that genesis as part of a two step vault might be the best way to go. Here's what I'm thinking: Lead Lined Vault room behind stone wall of keep (disintegrate to reach) Forbiddance-Keeps out teleportation and opposing alignments. Inscriptions of Concealment-provide sequester effect. Permanent Prismatic Sphere in center of room. Sigils of Supression Greater-provide greater globe of invulnerability and prevent dispelliing of Prismatic Sphere, with exception of Disjunction. Inside of the prismatic sphere will be a variable, creature only portal, keyed to the characters. Thanks to the Globe of Invulnerability effect, Analyze Portal is blocked, and the Sequester keeps general divinations from finding it. A character with the key can access the demiplane without fear. Other individuals that try the portal would find themselves without items in the keep's prison cell. Should an unkeyed individual reach the demiplane and try to come back to the keep, the portal would retain all the items on the demiplane and transport the intruder into prison. We don't need a continually active portal, which keeps the price low, but does this seem to be fairly effective? My final question is the demiplane itself. Do we create a dead magic demiplane or just use inscriptions of concealment (for sequester effect) with some form of interdimensional travel blocking spell?
NinjaNed 03-16-05, 05:33 PM	maybe you could have the actual artifacts hidden away in a portable hole, another plane, etc, and then put fake artifacts in a well guarded vault. That way, you could find out how powerful the people after the artifacts are.