Creation Feats in the Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creation Feats in the Party [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hangfire
12-10-05, 04:36 PM Okay this is a question for all the magic using players out there regarding creation feats. I'm playing a wizard/cleric and I'm scribing scrolls for the party - mostly cure light wounds at this point, and I was wondering what you do about the cost of creating them? Do you pass the cost on to members of the party? Do you see it as your place in the group to make things and freely distribute them? It's not like my character is front and center in combat, so should I be healing for free? What about the XP cost - do you charge the party 5 gp per XP as in the DMG, or just swollow the cost? Thanks.
Braids
12-10-05, 04:51 PM I used to play a similar character [Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge] and I would sell my Creations [Of any kind] to the party at 3/4ths of the standard cost. It makes up for the XP loss and it gets scrolls to the party for less than they would normally buy them.
syntaxerror37
12-11-05, 10:34 PM I don't think the other players should have any problems with making up for your xp cost, either through paying hard cash for your xps, or alowing you a little side story to rack up a little xp on your own.

One of my friends always said that it was the xp cost of crafting for the whole party was his issue with crafting in 3.x. Not that he isn't a team player, but +2 weapons for the 3 other party members can start to put the wizard a bit behind the party in xp. Cause in the end, the party can cover the gp cost, get you any material components, but the xp comes from you. My solution was a feat that alowed the crafter to share up to 50% of the xp cost for item creation with another player.
FWHGilby
12-12-05, 11:48 AM Your party members are your meatshields you should heal them for free. Just tell them to be able to keep making scrolls you will have to have a bit more of the treasure to keep making them. Remember on item creation, if you make specific req's like only usable by fighter, or human ie. it reduces market value and thus XP cost.
DarknessEternal
12-12-05, 12:51 PM Yes, they owe you. You are sacrificing your own life for theirs. XP costs are pretty well ridiculous for anything more than level 1 spell effects. It's completly unreasonable that anyone would expect such a thing for free.

You burned your precious feat slot. Ask anyone else if they will spend feats entirely to benefit you? The answer is going to be no.
syntaxerror37
12-12-05, 03:22 PM You burned your precious feat slot. Ask anyone else if they will spend feats entirely to benefit you? The answer is going to be no.

He didn't "burn a feat slot", he got scribe scroll for being a level 1 wizard.
Hangfire
12-12-05, 07:23 PM He didn't "burn a feat slot", he got scribe scroll for being a level 1 wizard.

I am talking about scrolls right now, but I also plan on taking the brew potion and create wonderous item feats. I'm curious, would you not charge for the scrolls because I got the feat for free, but charge for other feats?
celtredleg
12-12-05, 11:02 PM Smart partys will devote a certain cut of the treasure to the creater to make stuff for them. If they dont, just make what you can afford. If its a good party they should be helping out.

If its not a good party then charge them all you want.

I take brew potion as well and have never had a problem getting the extra cash to make stuff for the group.
Master of the Wild
12-13-05, 09:36 AM I can hardly believe it seems all your characters don't share money with the team!

I've been playing in three different teams, under three different DM's and we always were sharing the party treasure/money.

That said, it's no wonder our wizard makes magic items; after all, if our team spends 8000 instead of 16000 gp, the wiz in effect saves 2000 gp for himself as well!

And think about other spellcasters: life-restoring spells from druids and clerics cost 500 gp to start with. Although that's no xp, one should note they have some xp-spells...

Besides, the druid / cleric usually can be found in melee combat or at least more often than the wizard... This implies they have a higher chance of level drain and such than wizards... What's 250 xp compared to a level loss?

And besides, I'd wager, a +1 enhancement on your fighters weapon eventually deals more damage than all your fireballs.
MarkB
12-13-05, 01:07 PM I think it's reasonable for the character who'll be using the item to pay, say, 60-70% of the base price to the crafter. That way, it's cheaper for him than buying it, and the crafter is getting his expenses covered plus a little for XP expenditure.

Bear in mind that lower-level characters earn XP faster in 3.5, so unless you do a huge amount of crafting you'll generally tend to catch up with the rest of the party pretty quickly if you lag behind due to item creation (assuming your DM uses the XP rules properly).
tennesseefats
12-13-05, 02:48 PM I play a wizard and make lots of stuff for the party. I have yet to get any complaints for charging them. The adavantage is, rather than find an item that may or may not be useful, they can have the items they want.

Here's what I charge - I sell (or trade) the items I create to the party at my cost: Half the base price + 5 gp per XP. So, a Cloak of Resistance +1 costs me 500 gp and 40 XP. So in this case I would charge the party member 700 gp [500 gp + (5*40) = 700]. That, btw, is the same suggested cost per XP charge given in the DMG. I like that better than a straight percentage - it's more consistent.

Now, if I make a scroll, and then I use it to heal or turn someone invisible, I don't charge them - using the scroll was my call, and I scribe scrolls to save spell slots. I could have just cast the spell (which I would never charge a party member for); either way I would say that is part of my party duty (just as the rogue risks death checking for traps, etc.). Plus, the other PCs don't have a choice in their usage, so they shouldn't have to pay for them (would you help the fighter pay for his fancy plate mail?), but if they want me to make a scroll for them to have, I would charge them based on the above formula.

See, I think there is a difference between making a scroll for a party member (to have), and making a scroll to be used during the party's adventures. The former should be paid for by the requesting character and the latter is the price of being an adventurer, and as such should never be billed to the other characters (unless you have a 'party account' to draw from)
CzarGarrett
12-13-05, 03:01 PM The crafting maniac character I had once made a deal with the other members of the party.

Every 3rd item I'd carry XP cost, but they had to pay full price for. Otherwise, they provided XP (DM allowed for this) and 1/5th the market price.
Hangfire
12-13-05, 03:21 PM I did have a cleric character once that charge the party members a flat fee of 5 gp for any healing spell. All the money went to the church, sort of a tithing. Some of the members of the party weren't too happy about it but it made for some interesting role-playing.

I do agree that if a wizard scribes a scroll and then uses it himself he can't charge the party for that. But if the cleric scribes a scroll for healing and then uses it on a party member, should he charge for that? I think so. Just as if the cleric had bought a potion of healing for his own use but ended up using it on another party member - I would charge in that situation (or at least expect it to be replaced at no cost to me).
Outlier
12-13-05, 06:50 PM Well, my dwarf wizard item creator worked it out like this:
Items for specific players were just negotiated individually - its a seller's market, so that annoying low charisma character whos alignment is opposed to mine is going to pay through the nose, while the meat shields and healers that are protecting *my* tail in combat get a pretty fair discount. Sometimes I charge only my costs (if I really want them to have the item) while other times I charge closer to full retail. Items for the group as a whole would get reimbursed out of treasure before it was split, and I charged parts plus about 20-30% (see below).

The bigger factor to consider is who gets what first. Time is a much bigger factor in our games than money - I never have time enough to go broke (you can only consume about 500gp/day making things - maybe a bit more if you use exotic materials).

Now the fact that you're burning XP will make your level lag behind the rest of the group. To make up for this, you need disproportionately good equipment so you can pull your weight during the game; your weapon needs to have a slightly better enchantment to make up for your slightly lower BAB, and so on. That means reserving a certain amount of your time for yourself, and charging enough profit to fund your own stuff. In our group, everybody seemed to feel that 25% for me and 75% for the group was about right (depends on the size of the group, obviously). So if we have 20 days available to craft stuff, I would reserve 5 days for myself and work for the others during the remaining 15 days. That means that I need to charge approximately 30% over my costs so I can fund my own work. That way, the XP costs didn't have to be charged out separately.
TinManFan
12-13-05, 09:04 PM Depends on if you have a DM that has "Magic Stores" in their cities or not. If they do, undercut them at 3/4th the price. If they's one of those strict 2e "Magic items are rare things that take decades to make" (Can't believe I wasted precious seconds of my life reading that damned 2e book where the guy takes a year making a wand of fire) well then, full price baby. "Oh you could go down to the store and get it... OH! That's right..."
syntaxerror37
12-14-05, 01:57 AM I am talking about scrolls right now, but I also plan on taking the brew potion and create wonderous item feats. I'm curious, would you not charge for the scrolls because I got the feat for free, but charge for other feats?

I was just clarifying that you didn't "buy" that feat. In my first post I was very much for you being compensated (one way or another) for your xp expenditures.
Jovknee
12-14-05, 02:05 AM My DM had designed a spell, that would allow you to use another person's XP (they have to be willing) instead of your own in creating items. Now I don't remember if full XP came from them, or if it was a 50/50 split. However it made it easier on the mage to make items for friends without limiting themselves on the level they are.
Master of the Wild
12-14-05, 08:44 AM A loss of xp isn't a loss:

See, my druid and the rogue have started their characters from character three. The wizard started from level one.

The rogue has died once (at lvl 3 or 4 I think) and level drained (at lvl 7?).
The druid has died at level 8. Also, the rogue delayed his level progression to met the prerequisites for horde stealer (you need to 'steal' a horde of 5000 gp to met the preq's). The wizard progressed as normal.

While we were level 8, the wizard had the highest xp.
At the moment the druid is level 9, the wizard level 9 and the rogue level 10.

Hell, the rogue has been level drained and is a level higher then me, the wizard enchanted my armour and started out two level lower than me... Both have more xp at the moment and we all shared (with some very minor exceptions) the same encounters!

The conclusion: the xp loss does not matter!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hangfire 12-10-05, 04:36 PM	Okay this is a question for all the magic using players out there regarding creation feats. I'm playing a wizard/cleric and I'm scribing scrolls for the party - mostly cure light wounds at this point, and I was wondering what you do about the cost of creating them? Do you pass the cost on to members of the party? Do you see it as your place in the group to make things and freely distribute them? It's not like my character is front and center in combat, so should I be healing for free? What about the XP cost - do you charge the party 5 gp per XP as in the DMG, or just swollow the cost? Thanks.
Braids 12-10-05, 04:51 PM	I used to play a similar character [Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge] and I would sell my Creations [Of any kind] to the party at 3/4ths of the standard cost. It makes up for the XP loss and it gets scrolls to the party for less than they would normally buy them.
syntaxerror37 12-11-05, 10:34 PM	I don't think the other players should have any problems with making up for your xp cost, either through paying hard cash for your xps, or alowing you a little side story to rack up a little xp on your own. One of my friends always said that it was the xp cost of crafting for the whole party was his issue with crafting in 3.x. Not that he isn't a team player, but +2 weapons for the 3 other party members can start to put the wizard a bit behind the party in xp. Cause in the end, the party can cover the gp cost, get you any material components, but the xp comes from you. My solution was a feat that alowed the crafter to share up to 50% of the xp cost for item creation with another player.
FWHGilby 12-12-05, 11:48 AM	Your party members are your meatshields you should heal them for free. Just tell them to be able to keep making scrolls you will have to have a bit more of the treasure to keep making them. Remember on item creation, if you make specific req's like only usable by fighter, or human ie. it reduces market value and thus XP cost.
DarknessEternal 12-12-05, 12:51 PM	Yes, they owe you. You are sacrificing your own life for theirs. XP costs are pretty well ridiculous for anything more than level 1 spell effects. It's completly unreasonable that anyone would expect such a thing for free. You burned your precious feat slot. Ask anyone else if they will spend feats entirely to benefit you? The answer is going to be no.
syntaxerror37 12-12-05, 03:22 PM	You burned your precious feat slot. Ask anyone else if they will spend feats entirely to benefit you? The answer is going to be no. He didn't "burn a feat slot", he got scribe scroll for being a level 1 wizard.
Hangfire 12-12-05, 07:23 PM	He didn't "burn a feat slot", he got scribe scroll for being a level 1 wizard. I am talking about scrolls right now, but I also plan on taking the brew potion and create wonderous item feats. I'm curious, would you not charge for the scrolls because I got the feat for free, but charge for other feats?
celtredleg 12-12-05, 11:02 PM	Smart partys will devote a certain cut of the treasure to the creater to make stuff for them. If they dont, just make what you can afford. If its a good party they should be helping out. If its not a good party then charge them all you want. I take brew potion as well and have never had a problem getting the extra cash to make stuff for the group.
Master of the Wild 12-13-05, 09:36 AM	I can hardly believe it seems all your characters don't share money with the team! I've been playing in three different teams, under three different DM's and we always were sharing the party treasure/money. That said, it's no wonder our wizard makes magic items; after all, if our team spends 8000 instead of 16000 gp, the wiz in effect saves 2000 gp for himself as well! And think about other spellcasters: life-restoring spells from druids and clerics cost 500 gp to start with. Although that's no xp, one should note they have some xp-spells... Besides, the druid / cleric usually can be found in melee combat or at least more often than the wizard... This implies they have a higher chance of level drain and such than wizards... What's 250 xp compared to a level loss? And besides, I'd wager, a +1 enhancement on your fighters weapon eventually deals more damage than all your fireballs.
MarkB 12-13-05, 01:07 PM	I think it's reasonable for the character who'll be using the item to pay, say, 60-70% of the base price to the crafter. That way, it's cheaper for him than buying it, and the crafter is getting his expenses covered plus a little for XP expenditure. Bear in mind that lower-level characters earn XP faster in 3.5, so unless you do a huge amount of crafting you'll generally tend to catch up with the rest of the party pretty quickly if you lag behind due to item creation (assuming your DM uses the XP rules properly).
tennesseefats 12-13-05, 02:48 PM	I play a wizard and make lots of stuff for the party. I have yet to get any complaints for charging them. The adavantage is, rather than find an item that may or may not be useful, they can have the items they want. Here's what I charge - I sell (or trade) the items I create to the party at my cost: Half the base price + 5 gp per XP. So, a Cloak of Resistance +1 costs me 500 gp and 40 XP. So in this case I would charge the party member 700 gp [500 gp + (5*40) = 700]. That, btw, is the same suggested cost per XP charge given in the DMG. I like that better than a straight percentage - it's more consistent. Now, if I make a scroll, and then I use it to heal or turn someone invisible, I don't charge them - using the scroll was my call, and I scribe scrolls to save spell slots. I could have just cast the spell (which I would never charge a party member for); either way I would say that is part of my party duty (just as the rogue risks death checking for traps, etc.). Plus, the other PCs don't have a choice in their usage, so they shouldn't have to pay for them (would you help the fighter pay for his fancy plate mail?), but if they want me to make a scroll for them to have, I would charge them based on the above formula. See, I think there is a difference between making a scroll for a party member (to have), and making a scroll to be used during the party's adventures. The former should be paid for by the requesting character and the latter is the price of being an adventurer, and as such should never be billed to the other characters (unless you have a 'party account' to draw from)
CzarGarrett 12-13-05, 03:01 PM	The crafting maniac character I had once made a deal with the other members of the party. Every 3rd item I'd carry XP cost, but they had to pay full price for. Otherwise, they provided XP (DM allowed for this) and 1/5th the market price.
Hangfire 12-13-05, 03:21 PM	I did have a cleric character once that charge the party members a flat fee of 5 gp for any healing spell. All the money went to the church, sort of a tithing. Some of the members of the party weren't too happy about it but it made for some interesting role-playing. I do agree that if a wizard scribes a scroll and then uses it himself he can't charge the party for that. But if the cleric scribes a scroll for healing and then uses it on a party member, should he charge for that? I think so. Just as if the cleric had bought a potion of healing for his own use but ended up using it on another party member - I would charge in that situation (or at least expect it to be replaced at no cost to me).
Outlier 12-13-05, 06:50 PM	Well, my dwarf wizard item creator worked it out like this: Items for specific players were just negotiated individually - its a seller's market, so that annoying low charisma character whos alignment is opposed to mine is going to pay through the nose, while the meat shields and healers that are protecting my tail in combat get a pretty fair discount. Sometimes I charge only my costs (if I really want them to have the item) while other times I charge closer to full retail. Items for the group as a whole would get reimbursed out of treasure before it was split, and I charged parts plus about 20-30% (see below). The bigger factor to consider is who gets what first. Time is a much bigger factor in our games than money - I never have time enough to go broke (you can only consume about 500gp/day making things - maybe a bit more if you use exotic materials). Now the fact that you're burning XP will make your level lag behind the rest of the group. To make up for this, you need disproportionately good equipment so you can pull your weight during the game; your weapon needs to have a slightly better enchantment to make up for your slightly lower BAB, and so on. That means reserving a certain amount of your time for yourself, and charging enough profit to fund your own stuff. In our group, everybody seemed to feel that 25% for me and 75% for the group was about right (depends on the size of the group, obviously). So if we have 20 days available to craft stuff, I would reserve 5 days for myself and work for the others during the remaining 15 days. That means that I need to charge approximately 30% over my costs so I can fund my own work. That way, the XP costs didn't have to be charged out separately.
TinManFan 12-13-05, 09:04 PM	Depends on if you have a DM that has "Magic Stores" in their cities or not. If they do, undercut them at 3/4th the price. If they's one of those strict 2e "Magic items are rare things that take decades to make" (Can't believe I wasted precious seconds of my life reading that damned 2e book where the guy takes a year making a wand of fire) well then, full price baby. "Oh you could go down to the store and get it... OH! That's right..."
syntaxerror37 12-14-05, 01:57 AM	I am talking about scrolls right now, but I also plan on taking the brew potion and create wonderous item feats. I'm curious, would you not charge for the scrolls because I got the feat for free, but charge for other feats? I was just clarifying that you didn't "buy" that feat. In my first post I was very much for you being compensated (one way or another) for your xp expenditures.
Jovknee 12-14-05, 02:05 AM	My DM had designed a spell, that would allow you to use another person's XP (they have to be willing) instead of your own in creating items. Now I don't remember if full XP came from them, or if it was a 50/50 split. However it made it easier on the mage to make items for friends without limiting themselves on the level they are.
Master of the Wild 12-14-05, 08:44 AM	A loss of xp isn't a loss: See, my druid and the rogue have started their characters from character three. The wizard started from level one. The rogue has died once (at lvl 3 or 4 I think) and level drained (at lvl 7?). The druid has died at level 8. Also, the rogue delayed his level progression to met the prerequisites for horde stealer (you need to 'steal' a horde of 5000 gp to met the preq's). The wizard progressed as normal. While we were level 8, the wizard had the highest xp. At the moment the druid is level 9, the wizard level 9 and the rogue level 10. Hell, the rogue has been level drained and is a level higher then me, the wizard enchanted my armour and started out two level lower than me... Both have more xp at the moment and we all shared (with some very minor exceptions) the same encounters! The conclusion: the xp loss does not matter!