Crit vrs immune to crit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crit vrs immune to crit [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
hanible
12-08-06, 07:23 PM Was discussing this with my friends the other day. If you have a weapon that does 1d4 fire on crit would that creature not suffer that affect as well. Basically i am wondering if being immune to crit makes you immune to the side affects of a crit. Basically i made a skull clan hunter rogue with telling blow. The skull clan lets met sneak attack undead and the telling blow gives me sneak attack damage on a crit. So in this case if i crit would the monster suffer the secondary effect.

Had the example if you are immune to fire and someone hits you with a fireball did they still "hit" you with it and you suffered no damage or did it not hit you at all.
IdleAltruism
12-08-06, 07:29 PM Was discussing this with my friends the other day. If you have a weapon that does 1d4 fire on crit would that creature not suffer that affect as well. Basically i am wondering if being immune to crit makes you immune to the side affects of a crit. Basically i made a skull clan hunter rogue with telling blow. The skull clan lets met sneak attack undead and the telling blow gives me sneak attack damage on a crit. So in this case if i crit would the monster suffer the secondary effect.

Had the example if you are immune to fire and someone hits you with a fireball did they still "hit" you with it and you suffered no damage or did it not hit you at all.

A fire immune creature can be hit with fire but they take no damage. I think you must succesfuly crit an apponent to get the extra damage. An undead is effectively immune to criticals so I would rule you wouldn't get the damage. The class allows you to sneak attack undead, not crit them.
hanible
12-08-06, 07:34 PM A fire immune creature can be hit with fire but they take no damage. I think you must succesfuly crit an apponent to get the extra damage. An undead is effectively immune to criticals so I would rule you wouldn't get the damage. The class allows you to sneak attack undead, not crit them.

Thats what i thought at first but is it that you hit the creature with a crit and they suffrer no effects because they are immune or that you cant hit them with a crit. Do you succesfully crit but it does nothing or do you not crit.

Lol this is prob one of those things you could debate forever
Matthew77
12-08-06, 07:41 PM I can't find any rules citations, but here's what my group does:

If the critial hit effect doesn't involve hitting harder or hitting a specific area, we let it work.

Two examples: Flaming Burst weapon vs a Golem. The golem takes the extra fire damage from the fiery burst, even though the weapon damage isn't doubled.

Vorpal weapon vs a Golem. The vorpal effect depends on hitting a specific area (neck) so it doesn't work.

In your specific case, I would allow your sneak attack damage from telling blow to affect the undead, because you took a feat to get it, and it just makes sense. If you are skilled in doing extra damage to undead by hitting them in the right place, and telling blow allows you to aim your crits at exactly the right place to deal extra damage, then you should be able to use both abilities.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht
12-08-06, 11:10 PM Effects that go off on crits work on creatures immune to criticals.
TheAngryFish
12-09-06, 12:03 AM [QUOTE=Matthew77;10861443]
Vorpal weapon vs a Golem. The vorpal effect depends on hitting a specific area (neck) so it doesn't work.QUOTE]

a vorpal weapon will sever the head of the victim if a roll of natural 20 is confirmed(excepting creatures lacking a head), a golem has a head to be severed (usually) ,but the only difference between a golem with a head and a golem without a head is a couple pounds
Matthew77
12-09-06, 12:29 AM a vorpal weapon will sever the head of the victim if a roll of natural 20 is confirmed(excepting creatures lacking a head), a golem has a head to be severed (usually) ,but the only difference between a golem with a head and a golem without a head is a couple pounds

And the head can roll around on the floor biting people :D
Mitchell
12-09-06, 12:49 AM Check for confirmation just as you normally would. If they confirm the critical, the effect will happen, but they won't get any of their actual critical damage applied, just the flaming burst or whatever along with the normal damage.
Zherog
12-09-06, 10:28 AM Mitchell and TheAngryFish are both correct. To provide some rules and stuff to back them up:

The flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapon powers require a critical hit to trigger the burst. What happens when you attack a foe that isn’t subject to critical hits? Will the burst power work? A flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon also is a flaming, frost, or shock weapon, respectively. What happens when the burst power is triggered? Does the burst damage augment
or replace the damage from the energy power?

A burst power has its normal effect against foes that aren’t subject to critical hits. If you strike such a foe and your attack roll is good enough to threaten a critical hit, go ahead and roll to confirm the critical. If you confirm the critical, the burst power is activated, but the foe doesn’t take any extra weapon damage. For example, you have a +1 flaming burst longsword and you hit a wight with it, rolling a 19 (good enough for a threat with a longsword). The wight is an undead creature and not subject to critical hits, but you roll to confirm the critical anyway. If you confirm the critical, the wight takes normal damage from the sword (1d8+1 points if you’re a Medium character, plus your Strength modifier), not double damage as a critical hit. The sword’s burst power kicks in however, dealing an extra 1d10 points of fire damage to the wight.

Damage from a burst weapon is in addition to any damage from the weapon’s energy power. If the energy power is activated, you deal 1d6 points of energy damage from the energy power, plus extra energy damage from the burst power (see the power descriptions). For example, a confirmed critical
hit from a +1 flaming burst longsword deals 1d6+1d10 points of fire damage in addition to the weapon damage from the critical hit itself.
hanible
12-09-06, 11:11 PM hey where is that faq page anyway would be usefull to know
Zherog
12-09-06, 11:44 PM Right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a).

From the D&D page (or the tool bar on the left if you have it enabled) click game rules. The FAQ is the second entry on the right.
tharivol266
12-10-06, 03:00 PM And the head can roll around on the floor biting people :D

it is afterall only a flesh wound. its too bad that the only thing the head could do i bite peoples legs off.
Roivas
12-11-06, 03:11 AM I also find it funny that a creature with regeneration that has it's head severed has 3 rounds to get it back on before it dies. It just leads to funny images of trolls chasing their heads downhill.
Millennium
12-11-06, 09:40 AM I also find it funny that a creature with regeneration that has it's head severed has 3 rounds to get it back on before it dies. It just leads to funny images of trolls chasing their heads downhill.
In the real world decapitated chickens have been known to run around for a short while. This is where the phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from. As another real-world example, even if you cut off the head of a rattlesnake, the head can still bite for up to an hour. I don't claim to know why chickens and rattlesnakes can do this. Certainly they don't have regeneration. But if a chicken without regeneration can do it, why couldn't a troll?

In any case, as others have mentioned, vorpal weapons do technically work on golems (the vorpal effect is not tied to a critical hit). It's just that cutting off a golem's head doesn't really do any significant extra harm: it's reduced to flavor.

Generally speaking, even if a creature is immune to critical hits, I still track critical threats and ask for confirmation. Sometimes this information is useful, and it also allows for me to insert some interesting circumstance or other. There's nothing quite like having a ranger shoot a new creature right in the heart, only to have it pull the arrow out, toss it aside while looking no more hurt than if it had been hit in the arm, and growl "That hurt, you %*$&!" at the ranger just before it charges...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hanible 12-08-06, 07:23 PM	Was discussing this with my friends the other day. If you have a weapon that does 1d4 fire on crit would that creature not suffer that affect as well. Basically i am wondering if being immune to crit makes you immune to the side affects of a crit. Basically i made a skull clan hunter rogue with telling blow. The skull clan lets met sneak attack undead and the telling blow gives me sneak attack damage on a crit. So in this case if i crit would the monster suffer the secondary effect. Had the example if you are immune to fire and someone hits you with a fireball did they still "hit" you with it and you suffered no damage or did it not hit you at all.
IdleAltruism 12-08-06, 07:29 PM	Was discussing this with my friends the other day. If you have a weapon that does 1d4 fire on crit would that creature not suffer that affect as well. Basically i am wondering if being immune to crit makes you immune to the side affects of a crit. Basically i made a skull clan hunter rogue with telling blow. The skull clan lets met sneak attack undead and the telling blow gives me sneak attack damage on a crit. So in this case if i crit would the monster suffer the secondary effect. Had the example if you are immune to fire and someone hits you with a fireball did they still "hit" you with it and you suffered no damage or did it not hit you at all. A fire immune creature can be hit with fire but they take no damage. I think you must succesfuly crit an apponent to get the extra damage. An undead is effectively immune to criticals so I would rule you wouldn't get the damage. The class allows you to sneak attack undead, not crit them.
hanible 12-08-06, 07:34 PM	A fire immune creature can be hit with fire but they take no damage. I think you must succesfuly crit an apponent to get the extra damage. An undead is effectively immune to criticals so I would rule you wouldn't get the damage. The class allows you to sneak attack undead, not crit them. Thats what i thought at first but is it that you hit the creature with a crit and they suffrer no effects because they are immune or that you cant hit them with a crit. Do you succesfully crit but it does nothing or do you not crit. Lol this is prob one of those things you could debate forever
Matthew77 12-08-06, 07:41 PM	I can't find any rules citations, but here's what my group does: If the critial hit effect doesn't involve hitting harder or hitting a specific area, we let it work. Two examples: Flaming Burst weapon vs a Golem. The golem takes the extra fire damage from the fiery burst, even though the weapon damage isn't doubled. Vorpal weapon vs a Golem. The vorpal effect depends on hitting a specific area (neck) so it doesn't work. In your specific case, I would allow your sneak attack damage from telling blow to affect the undead, because you took a feat to get it, and it just makes sense. If you are skilled in doing extra damage to undead by hitting them in the right place, and telling blow allows you to aim your crits at exactly the right place to deal extra damage, then you should be able to use both abilities.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 12-08-06, 11:10 PM	Effects that go off on crits work on creatures immune to criticals.
TheAngryFish 12-09-06, 12:03 AM	[QUOTE=Matthew77;10861443] Vorpal weapon vs a Golem. The vorpal effect depends on hitting a specific area (neck) so it doesn't work.QUOTE] a vorpal weapon will sever the head of the victim if a roll of natural 20 is confirmed(excepting creatures lacking a head), a golem has a head to be severed (usually) ,but the only difference between a golem with a head and a golem without a head is a couple pounds
Matthew77 12-09-06, 12:29 AM	a vorpal weapon will sever the head of the victim if a roll of natural 20 is confirmed(excepting creatures lacking a head), a golem has a head to be severed (usually) ,but the only difference between a golem with a head and a golem without a head is a couple pounds And the head can roll around on the floor biting people :D
Mitchell 12-09-06, 12:49 AM	Check for confirmation just as you normally would. If they confirm the critical, the effect will happen, but they won't get any of their actual critical damage applied, just the flaming burst or whatever along with the normal damage.
Zherog 12-09-06, 10:28 AM	Mitchell and TheAngryFish are both correct. To provide some rules and stuff to back them up: The flaming burst, icy burst, and shocking burst weapon powers require a critical hit to trigger the burst. What happens when you attack a foe that isn’t subject to critical hits? Will the burst power work? A flaming burst, icy burst, or shocking burst weapon also is a flaming, frost, or shock weapon, respectively. What happens when the burst power is triggered? Does the burst damage augment or replace the damage from the energy power? A burst power has its normal effect against foes that aren’t subject to critical hits. If you strike such a foe and your attack roll is good enough to threaten a critical hit, go ahead and roll to confirm the critical. If you confirm the critical, the burst power is activated, but the foe doesn’t take any extra weapon damage. For example, you have a +1 flaming burst longsword and you hit a wight with it, rolling a 19 (good enough for a threat with a longsword). The wight is an undead creature and not subject to critical hits, but you roll to confirm the critical anyway. If you confirm the critical, the wight takes normal damage from the sword (1d8+1 points if you’re a Medium character, plus your Strength modifier), not double damage as a critical hit. The sword’s burst power kicks in however, dealing an extra 1d10 points of fire damage to the wight. Damage from a burst weapon is in addition to any damage from the weapon’s energy power. If the energy power is activated, you deal 1d6 points of energy damage from the energy power, plus extra energy damage from the burst power (see the power descriptions). For example, a confirmed critical hit from a +1 flaming burst longsword deals 1d6+1d10 points of fire damage in addition to the weapon damage from the critical hit itself.
hanible 12-09-06, 11:11 PM	hey where is that faq page anyway would be usefull to know
Zherog 12-09-06, 11:44 PM	Right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). From the D&D page (or the tool bar on the left if you have it enabled) click game rules. The FAQ is the second entry on the right.
tharivol266 12-10-06, 03:00 PM	And the head can roll around on the floor biting people :D it is afterall only a flesh wound. its too bad that the only thing the head could do i bite peoples legs off.
Roivas 12-11-06, 03:11 AM	I also find it funny that a creature with regeneration that has it's head severed has 3 rounds to get it back on before it dies. It just leads to funny images of trolls chasing their heads downhill.
Millennium 12-11-06, 09:40 AM	I also find it funny that a creature with regeneration that has it's head severed has 3 rounds to get it back on before it dies. It just leads to funny images of trolls chasing their heads downhill. In the real world decapitated chickens have been known to run around for a short while. This is where the phrase "running around like a chicken with its head cut off" comes from. As another real-world example, even if you cut off the head of a rattlesnake, the head can still bite for up to an hour. I don't claim to know why chickens and rattlesnakes can do this. Certainly they don't have regeneration. But if a chicken without regeneration can do it, why couldn't a troll? In any case, as others have mentioned, vorpal weapons do technically work on golems (the vorpal effect is not tied to a critical hit). It's just that cutting off a golem's head doesn't really do any significant extra harm: it's reduced to flavor. Generally speaking, even if a creature is immune to critical hits, I still track critical threats and ask for confirmation. Sometimes this information is useful, and it also allows for me to insert some interesting circumstance or other. There's nothing quite like having a ranger shoot a new creature right in the heart, only to have it pull the arrow out, toss it aside while looking no more hurt than if it had been hit in the arm, and growl "That hurt, you %*$&!" at the ranger just before it charges...