crossbow+melee=sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

crossbow+melee=sneak attack? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Didge
01-06-04, 06:22 PM Ok here it goes, this question has been tossed around but I'm unaware of (not saying it hasn't been discussed) this slant.

We just started a 3.5 campaign (even the DM is new to the whole concept of 3.5 as well as 3.0) and I'm playing a rogue. Of course our first fight breaks out and the dreaded question of sneak attack comes up.

Now before everyone goes rushing right into this it isn't a question of when sneak attack damage is applied. We read, and re-read, and then read it again and we've pretty much got that part understood.

The question is in 3.5, if my character has a ranged attack weapon readied (i.e., a light crossbow cocked and loaded) walks into combat, my DM seems to think that even if a situation presented itself for sneak attack damage, that because it said, "Melee" in the PHB that the crossbow bolt wouldn't give me the sneak attack damage. Is this right? I tried to find something/anything (the DM is a firm, "If it's not in the books, than it can't be done" type) but I was at a complete loss.

Using his ruling, I could have struck him with the backend of the crossbow with -4 proficency penalty and gained my sneak attack this way. Does this seem stupid to anyone else?? What's the difference between sticking a sword in someone's liver and pointing a crossbow at someone's liver? I fail to see the point (no pun intended).

My understanding is that (still new to the whole 3.0 and 3.5 sets, and I'm in a campaign of each, hehe what fun it is to be me!) in 3.0 you can use a ranged attack, i.e. stand a ways back and so long as someone else is fighting the bad guy you get flanking, and thus sneak attack damage, unless given the pre-set conditions in the book of course, while in 3.5 you can no longer do this. For those of you as confused as I was, and probably still am, the below diagram might help explain.

3.0

A*O****B

A: your flanking buddy.
*: is a five foot square.
B: Your friendly rogue sneak attacking away.

3.5 The above scenario doesn't work for sneak attack.

Could someone please clear this up, and perhaps send me to some text that explains it all. I don't think my question is that bad, and realistically I (if I were the DM) wouldn't have a problem with the loading a crossbow and trudging into hand-to-hand to get the sneak attack damage when it applied. But am I overlooking something, or is my DM being an over-paranoid, typically over-reacting type?

Also, is their an AoO here for firing the crossbow in melee, I want to say there is, but I can't recall off hand.

Any thoughts would be kindly appreciated.
Eldermount
01-06-04, 06:34 PM I believe you're mixing up flanking with sneak attack.

By the rules, flanking can only be done in melee.
3.5 SRD
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

Sneak attacks can be done from range.
3.5 SRD
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

And, yes, you provoke an AoO if firing a missile weapon while in an opponents threatened area.
Heron_Marked_Blade
01-06-04, 06:39 PM As I remember 3.0, you never could flank someone with a ranged weapon. You had to threaten them with a melee weapon to gain flanking bonuses. I do know that in 3.5 you can't provide a flanking bonus from 20 feet away with a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons don't threaten.

From the 3.5 SRD:
FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.

Regarding making a sneak attack, if your Rogue wins initiative and is standing next to an enemy, he can fire his crossbow at the enemy and get sneak attack damage. Such an action would normally provoke an AoO from the enemy (or any other adjacent enemies), but because your Rogue is going first in the initiative the enemy can't do anything about it unless he has Combat Reflexes, in which case your Rogue would still get sneak attack damage (due to the enemy being flat-footed), but the enemy would also get an AoO on your Rogue.
Xavim
01-06-04, 06:40 PM So given that definition a rogue would only sneak attack with a ranged weapon if the opponent was flat footed since ranged attacks do not flank?

I cirtainly hope that is not true otherwise ranged rogues just went straight into the crapper. No more dart/knife throwing specialists to fear.
Heron_Marked_Blade
01-06-04, 06:52 PM Originally posted by Xavim
So given that definition a rogue would only sneak attack with a ranged weapon if the opponent was flat footed since ranged attacks do not flank?

No. Rogues also get ranged sneak attack if a target is denied its Dex to AC. There are more ways to bring that about than by flanking.

This has always been the case. The best thing for a rogue ranged specialist is to max out Hide and/or become invisible, thereby causing targets to lose their Dex bonuses to AC and granting the rogue sneak attack damage.
Crono
01-06-04, 08:38 PM Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade
No. Rogues also get ranged sneak attack if a target is denied its Dex to AC. There are more ways to bring that about than by flanking.

This has always been the case. The best thing for a rogue ranged specialist is to max out Hide and/or become invisible, thereby causing targets to lose their Dex bonuses to AC and granting the rogue sneak attack damage.

Does this work even if the creature is threatened by other party members?
Heron_Marked_Blade
01-06-04, 11:35 PM I believe you have to be one of the flankers to gain the benefits of flanking. Two people flanking an orc wouldn't allow the rogue to sneak attack said orc from 25' away; the rogue would need to be flanking the orc as well. It says as much in the description of the Rogue's sneak attack ability (PHB, p. 50). That being said, the rogue could still snipe at the orc if the Rogue had cover and succeeded at a Hide check (opposed by any watcher's [i.e. the orc's] Spot check). See 3.5 PHB, p. 76 for more details.
Escef
01-07-04, 12:44 AM My group has a houserule where a flanked PC/NPC is considered flanked to everybody. If flankers get bonuses to hit because you have to divide your attention between them, why would you suddenly have more attention to spare for a third opponent? Or a fourth?

Example:

12*
3e*
**4

By the rules, only 1 and 4 would get flanking bonuses on e, but my group's houserule the guy is flanked. Period. Everybody gets bonuses.
Didge
01-07-04, 04:39 PM Ok, thanks to everyone here. You've helped clear things up for the most part. My rogue (who is designed for ranged sneak attack opportunities) will just have to be a bit picky about his situational motivations for engaging in melee from now on. I.e., only when he get's to go first, or when he finally picks up those handy feats that lets him use sneak attack in combat, such as improved feint.

I'm not too worried as I've designed him to be both a melee and a ranged fighter. I'll re-read (sigh, ok ok, so I'll copy the section from the book and memorize it until it sinks into my thick skull) everything and see what my DM has to say.

So again, thanks all. My DM isn't that bad, he just gets fustrated with me because I've been known to exploit loopholes in games before. Anytime I start to do something he hasn't thought through completely he assumes I have some master plan. Of course I do, but I never reveal it, until its too late, heh.
KShaver
01-07-04, 04:49 PM Originally posted by Didge
My rogue (who is designed for ranged sneak attack opportunities) will just have to be a bit picky about his situational motivations for engaging in melee from now on. I.e., only when he get's to go first, or when he finally picks up those handy feats that lets him use sneak attack in combat, such as improved feint.

I'm not too worried as I've designed him to be both a melee and a ranged fighter.

Actually if you get to go first you might as well start with ranged attacks. As mentioned if the opponent is flat footed and you are within 30ft with a ranged weapon you can sneak attack him. Just start with ranged while opponents are flat-footed, then move into melee flanking postions afterwards. That way you get to use ranged and melee abilties, and you always get your sneak attack.
Hughbert
01-07-04, 05:44 PM If an opponent is flanked by 2 Party-Members, is he considered as not having his Dexterity bonus to AC for a 3rd (Rogue) Party-Member, who could then perform a ranged sneak attack?
KShaver
01-08-04, 09:15 AM Originally posted by Hughbert
If an opponent is flanked by 2 Party-Members, is he considered as not having his Dexterity bonus to AC for a 3rd (Rogue) Party-Member, who could then perform a ranged sneak attack?

No, being flanked does not deny you your dex, and the archer can not flank with a ranged weapon, so he meets neither of the requirements for sneak attack.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Didge 01-06-04, 06:22 PM	Ok here it goes, this question has been tossed around but I'm unaware of (not saying it hasn't been discussed) this slant. We just started a 3.5 campaign (even the DM is new to the whole concept of 3.5 as well as 3.0) and I'm playing a rogue. Of course our first fight breaks out and the dreaded question of sneak attack comes up. Now before everyone goes rushing right into this it isn't a question of when sneak attack damage is applied. We read, and re-read, and then read it again and we've pretty much got that part understood. The question is in 3.5, if my character has a ranged attack weapon readied (i.e., a light crossbow cocked and loaded) walks into combat, my DM seems to think that even if a situation presented itself for sneak attack damage, that because it said, "Melee" in the PHB that the crossbow bolt wouldn't give me the sneak attack damage. Is this right? I tried to find something/anything (the DM is a firm, "If it's not in the books, than it can't be done" type) but I was at a complete loss. Using his ruling, I could have struck him with the backend of the crossbow with -4 proficency penalty and gained my sneak attack this way. Does this seem stupid to anyone else?? What's the difference between sticking a sword in someone's liver and pointing a crossbow at someone's liver? I fail to see the point (no pun intended). My understanding is that (still new to the whole 3.0 and 3.5 sets, and I'm in a campaign of each, hehe what fun it is to be me!) in 3.0 you can use a ranged attack, i.e. stand a ways back and so long as someone else is fighting the bad guy you get flanking, and thus sneak attack damage, unless given the pre-set conditions in the book of course, while in 3.5 you can no longer do this. For those of you as confused as I was, and probably still am, the below diagram might help explain. 3.0 AO**B A: your flanking buddy. : is a five foot square. B: Your friendly rogue sneak attacking away. 3.5 The above scenario doesn't work for sneak attack. Could someone please clear this up, and perhaps send me to some text that explains it all. I don't think my question is that bad, and realistically I (if I were the DM) wouldn't have a problem with the loading a crossbow and trudging into hand-to-hand to get the sneak attack damage when it applied. But am I overlooking something, or is my DM being an over-paranoid, typically over-reacting type? Also, is their an AoO here for firing the crossbow in melee, I want to say there is, but I can't recall off hand. Any thoughts would be kindly appreciated.
Eldermount 01-06-04, 06:34 PM	I believe you're mixing up flanking with sneak attack. By the rules, flanking can only be done in melee. 3.5 SRD When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. Sneak attacks can be done from range. 3.5 SRD Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. And, yes, you provoke an AoO if firing a missile weapon while in an opponents threatened area.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-06-04, 06:39 PM	As I remember 3.0, you never could flank someone with a ranged weapon. You had to threaten them with a melee weapon to gain flanking bonuses. I do know that in 3.5 you can't provide a flanking bonus from 20 feet away with a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons don't threaten. From the 3.5 SRD: FLANKING When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner. When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked. Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking. Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus. Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent. Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Regarding making a sneak attack, if your Rogue wins initiative and is standing next to an enemy, he can fire his crossbow at the enemy and get sneak attack damage. Such an action would normally provoke an AoO from the enemy (or any other adjacent enemies), but because your Rogue is going first in the initiative the enemy can't do anything about it unless he has Combat Reflexes, in which case your Rogue would still get sneak attack damage (due to the enemy being flat-footed), but the enemy would also get an AoO on your Rogue.
Xavim 01-06-04, 06:40 PM	So given that definition a rogue would only sneak attack with a ranged weapon if the opponent was flat footed since ranged attacks do not flank? I cirtainly hope that is not true otherwise ranged rogues just went straight into the crapper. No more dart/knife throwing specialists to fear.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-06-04, 06:52 PM	Originally posted by Xavim So given that definition a rogue would only sneak attack with a ranged weapon if the opponent was flat footed since ranged attacks do not flank? No. Rogues also get ranged sneak attack if a target is denied its Dex to AC. There are more ways to bring that about than by flanking. This has always been the case. The best thing for a rogue ranged specialist is to max out Hide and/or become invisible, thereby causing targets to lose their Dex bonuses to AC and granting the rogue sneak attack damage.
Crono 01-06-04, 08:38 PM	Originally posted by Heron_Marked_Blade No. Rogues also get ranged sneak attack if a target is denied its Dex to AC. There are more ways to bring that about than by flanking. This has always been the case. The best thing for a rogue ranged specialist is to max out Hide and/or become invisible, thereby causing targets to lose their Dex bonuses to AC and granting the rogue sneak attack damage. Does this work even if the creature is threatened by other party members?
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-06-04, 11:35 PM	I believe you have to be one of the flankers to gain the benefits of flanking. Two people flanking an orc wouldn't allow the rogue to sneak attack said orc from 25' away; the rogue would need to be flanking the orc as well. It says as much in the description of the Rogue's sneak attack ability (PHB, p. 50). That being said, the rogue could still snipe at the orc if the Rogue had cover and succeeded at a Hide check (opposed by any watcher's [i.e. the orc's] Spot check). See 3.5 PHB, p. 76 for more details.
Escef 01-07-04, 12:44 AM	My group has a houserule where a flanked PC/NPC is considered flanked to everybody. If flankers get bonuses to hit because you have to divide your attention between them, why would you suddenly have more attention to spare for a third opponent? Or a fourth? Example: 12* 3e* **4 By the rules, only 1 and 4 would get flanking bonuses on e, but my group's houserule the guy is flanked. Period. Everybody gets bonuses.
Didge 01-07-04, 04:39 PM	Ok, thanks to everyone here. You've helped clear things up for the most part. My rogue (who is designed for ranged sneak attack opportunities) will just have to be a bit picky about his situational motivations for engaging in melee from now on. I.e., only when he get's to go first, or when he finally picks up those handy feats that lets him use sneak attack in combat, such as improved feint. I'm not too worried as I've designed him to be both a melee and a ranged fighter. I'll re-read (sigh, ok ok, so I'll copy the section from the book and memorize it until it sinks into my thick skull) everything and see what my DM has to say. So again, thanks all. My DM isn't that bad, he just gets fustrated with me because I've been known to exploit loopholes in games before. Anytime I start to do something he hasn't thought through completely he assumes I have some master plan. Of course I do, but I never reveal it, until its too late, heh.
KShaver 01-07-04, 04:49 PM	Originally posted by Didge My rogue (who is designed for ranged sneak attack opportunities) will just have to be a bit picky about his situational motivations for engaging in melee from now on. I.e., only when he get's to go first, or when he finally picks up those handy feats that lets him use sneak attack in combat, such as improved feint. I'm not too worried as I've designed him to be both a melee and a ranged fighter. Actually if you get to go first you might as well start with ranged attacks. As mentioned if the opponent is flat footed and you are within 30ft with a ranged weapon you can sneak attack him. Just start with ranged while opponents are flat-footed, then move into melee flanking postions afterwards. That way you get to use ranged and melee abilties, and you always get your sneak attack.
Hughbert 01-07-04, 05:44 PM	If an opponent is flanked by 2 Party-Members, is he considered as not having his Dexterity bonus to AC for a 3rd (Rogue) Party-Member, who could then perform a ranged sneak attack?
KShaver 01-08-04, 09:15 AM	Originally posted by Hughbert If an opponent is flanked by 2 Party-Members, is he considered as not having his Dexterity bonus to AC for a 3rd (Rogue) Party-Member, who could then perform a ranged sneak attack? No, being flanked does not deny you your dex, and the archer can not flank with a ranged weapon, so he meets neither of the requirements for sneak attack.