Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sun Stealer 02-04-04, 05:06 AM	In a recent campaign, one of my friends was making a LN Cleric/Monk who was roleplayed as a crusader against evilness style character. In the same campaign, I thought I'd try out being evil, after playing many, many LG/NG/CG characters. I made a LE Kobold Samurai (with a mission to conquer the world in the name of the Kobold race :D) Anyway, as soon as I tell my friend what alignment I'm playing, he says he'll kill my char as soon as the game starts. I managed to delay that by arguing that he doesn't know I'm evil yet, but he isn't the best at seperating character knowledge with player knowledge. We found an amulet of protection, and because he wanted it and I had it, he killed my character, using the "he's evil" excuse. After the DM explained to both of us it was an amulet of natural armour, which is useless with my tough Koboldy hide, he took back the killing and I gave him the amulet to get the game moving. He seems to think that "evil" means killing random people, raping, pillaging, torturing, etc. I tried to explain to him that evil doesn't have to be stupid, but he's basing his POV on the descriptions in the PHB, which portray evil in the worst light possible (to motivate the heroes, I guess). I tried to run my Kobold as I thought a LE Samurai would act, killing those who got in the way of my goal (who all helpfully were also enemies of the party), with the occasional selfish grab at loot when it was found. He regularly plays Chaotic Good characters who bludgeon the mayor into uncosciousness, because there's a faint aura of evil around them and they charge taxes that he doesn't want to pay. It's difficult to bang into his head that the way he runs his characters is a good definition of evil (attacking people without good reason, killing things just for being a certain alignment(evil), not for committing evil, etc.) I'd really like to hear people's opinions on evil, whether they agree with my views or not, so I can use it to smack some sense into him ;), or in the case of disagreeing with my views, so I can understand why he thinks like that.
Eltheynn 02-04-04, 05:23 AM	Originally posted by Sun Stealer In a recent campaign, one of my friends was making a LN Cleric/Monk who was roleplayed as a crusader against evilness style character. 'Nuff said. Smack the player with the PHB, and have him read the LN alignment description. Crusaders against Evil are NG or LG. A LN guy cares about balance, stability, order.... Getting rid of all Evil will upset the balance in favor of Good, thus shifting the monk's alignment towards NG or LG. Anyway, as soon as I tell my friend what alignment I'm playing, he says he'll kill my char as soon as the game starts. Which stinks of blatant metagaming. Smack him twice as hard. We found an amulet of protection, and because he wanted it and I had it, he killed my character, using the "he's evil" excuse. Did he have any proof? Detect Evil, obvious random murder and rape and pillage? If not, smack him again. He seems to think that "evil" means killing random people, raping, pillaging, torturing, etc. Ahem.... CHAOTIC Evil, maybe. LE? No freaking way! killing those who got in the way of my goal (who all helpfully were also enemies of the party), with the occasional selfish grab at loot when it was found. That's LE. You played OK. LE: "Everything that furthers my goals and/or benefits me is OK, if it doesn't I must get rid of it". He regularly plays Chaotic Good characters who bludgeon the mayor into uncosciousness, because there's a faint aura of evil around them OK, a CG character may act this way, no problem, and they charge taxes that he doesn't want to pay. That's not CG, it's Chaotic selfish! It's difficult to bang into his head that the way he runs his characters is a good definition of evil (attacking people without good reason, killing things just for being a certain alignment(evil), not for committing evil, etc.) Lawful Stupid... That's a problem. And usually a big one. I'd really like to hear people's opinions on evil, whether they agree with my views or not, so I can use it to smack some sense into him ;), or in the case of disagreeing with my views, so I can understand why he thinks like that. Simple as that: Your friend thinks that any lawful alignment (except LE) has the right to smite someone jus because he's suspicious or seems evil. He thinks Chaotic means "I'm so totally important that if I don't wanna do it, nothing is gonna stop me from not doing it". He thinks Good means "Kill 'em all, let Pelor sort 'em out". In as few words as possible: He didn't understand alignment when (if) he read that part of the PHB. P.S: Just my opinion, I don't want to raise a flamewar about aignment and what's right or wrong here.
Naeron 02-04-04, 06:15 AM	Originally posted by Eltheynn 'Nuff said. Smack the player with the PHB, and have him read the LN alignment description. Crusaders against Evil are NG or LG. A LN guy cares about balance, stability, order.... Getting rid of all Evil will upset the balance in favor of Good, thus shifting the monk's alignment towards NG or LG. [/B] Perhaps you should read the description, from the SRD. "A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government." The explanation of Neutral: "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. " So the person who wants to wipe out evil and has problems with harming the innocent, helps other out of self-interest rather than because it is the right thing and has a strong personal code would be what alignment? Only one alignment is concerned with the balance between good and evil and Neutrals philosophically commited to neutrality. Other than that it seems the player does not understand exactly what the evil alignments can encompass.
Capn Charlie 02-04-04, 06:25 AM	Here you go, talk with the DM and arrange a little play for party stability. If it means keeping the infighting down he should go for it. If he does he might engineer circumstances to allow this: Whenever the monk attacks you, hopefully after you have adventured together for a bit, the dm should give the monk some way of detecting evil, or have a pally npc do it or something. When the monk attacks soundly defeat him. However do not kill him. Do the whole honor spiel and say about how he is an ally and you would rather not slay him. If he doesn't get it, well, then at a later date have it out in an honorable duel, Iaujitsu, and may the best kobold win.
Eltheynn 02-04-04, 07:22 AM	Originally posted by Naeron Perhaps you should read the description, from the SRD. Already did... "A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government." OK.... The explanation of Neutral: "People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships. " OK.... So the person who wants to wipe out evil and has problems with harming the innocent, helps other out of self-interest rather than because it is the right thing and has a strong personal code would be what alignment? Lawful neutral with good tendancies, perhaps true neutral. What you've described is way too complex to be handled with the current Alignment System, as it fits Lawful (personal code), Good (fights evil/doesn't harm innocents), and Neutral or certain Evil alignments (helps others out of self interest). You missed mentioning he cares about freedom (to encompass Chaotic as well). But the monk we're dealing with has no problems with "harming the innocent" (remember he killed the LE Samurai, probably without knowing he was Evil, and over an argument about the possesion of an amulet, this doesn't seem to neutral on the Good/Evil axxis to me). Only one alignment is concerned with the balance between good and evil and Neutrals philosophically commited to neutrality. OK, so you have a problem with me saying: "A LN guy cares about balance, stability, order...". Then scratch the "Balance" part. If it makes you feel better, I didn't type that, OK? ;) :P But (IMHO) LN don't care about Good/Evil as long as the Order they seek is not threatened by either. One exception to that could be that they have a personal code that includes a "wipe out evil" clausule, but then I'd tend to make the character LG (after all, if you fight against Evil and not against Goodm you're Good). Other than that it seems the player does not understand exactly what the evil alignments can encompass. Exactly my point... Plus I think he doesn't get what LN means, either. So what was the point of having me read the Alignment Descriptions? P.S: And please do't get me started on the limitations of the Alignment system...
Thorak 02-04-04, 07:43 AM	Make a new, even more evil character. Conceal the fact that he's evil both from your friend and his character. Then, when your character hears about this guy's homicidal tendencies towards anyone 'evil', he'll act to protect himself. By slitting said cleric/monk's throat one night in his sleep. Make sure that you A> talk to the DM about it first, and point out that your friend's being a tool, B> don't say ANYTHING in-game to reveal what you're planning, and C> when you're going to kill him, pass a note saying so to the DM, don't announce it. Then, if you make your Move Silently rolls, the DM never has to get him to do anything, his character's helpless and there's no reason for him to wake up, therefore you Coup de Grace him to the great beyond. When the DM announces he's dead, it means he can't (not that he won't, mind you) argue that he wakes up first. Then, point out that A> killing party members is bad karma, and B> that killing someone without provocation, even if their alignment is technically evil, is Evil with a capital E. Technically, a greedy merchant who pulls every trick in the book to swindle his customers is Neutral or Chaotic Evil. Doesn't mean they need to be killed.
dantedarkstar 02-04-04, 09:47 AM	Your Kobold should use benefit of one thing - law. In a city, the monk can hardly attack the Kobold just like that. It will get a hell on his head. Remember, law is on your side. And strong countries are usually lawful. If he attacks you, just retreat, accuse him of attacking you. Be sure there IS a witness. Be sure what law permits and what it doesn't (so it won't turn out that the monk had the right to attack you). Torment him using the whole nice law system created just for that purpose :devil: .... uhm... well, what other purpose for law is there :devilish laugh:
SureFoot 02-04-04, 10:27 AM	Try the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Has good writeups of what "good" is (and is not).
Sun Stealer 02-05-04, 03:15 AM	Here you go, talk with the DM and arrange a little play for party stability. If it means keeping the infighting down he should go for it. If he does he might engineer circumstances to allow this: Whenever the monk attacks you, hopefully after you have adventured together for a bit, the dm should give the monk some way of detecting evil, or have a pally npc do it or something. When the monk attacks soundly defeat him. However do not kill him. Do the whole honor spiel and say about how he is an ally and you would rather not slay him. If he doesn't get it, well, then at a later date have it out in an honorable duel, Iaujitsu, and may the best kobold win. Our DM is a little inexperienced, and he enjoys watching the party infighting. Another problem is my friend is a bit of a powergamer, and he's a cleric/monk so he can combine inflict wounds with his unarmed strike. While my little Kobold isn't the worst fighter, he's not specialized in combat to the extent my friend's character is. I wouldn't have a chance to beat him, that's why he was so ready to kill my character when I had the amulet. Make a new, even more evil character. Conceal the fact that he's evil both from your friend and his character. Then, when your character hears about this guy's homicidal tendencies towards anyone 'evil', he'll act to protect himself. By slitting said cleric/monk's throat one night in his sleep. Make sure that you A> talk to the DM about it first, and point out that your friend's being a tool, B> don't say ANYTHING in-game to reveal what you're planning, and C> when you're going to kill him, pass a note saying so to the DM, don't announce it. Then, if you make your Move Silently rolls, the DM never has to get him to do anything, his character's helpless and there's no reason for him to wake up, therefore you Coup de Grace him to the great beyond. When the DM announces he's dead, it means he can't (not that he won't, mind you) argue that he wakes up first. Then, point out that A> killing party members is bad karma, and B> that killing someone without provocation, even if their alignment is technically evil, is Evil with a capital E. Technically, a greedy merchant who pulls every trick in the book to swindle his customers is Neutral or Chaotic Evil. Doesn't mean they need to be killed. I don't really want to do this, because it'll just make him angry and he'll make a character specialized for killing mine. Even if I explain why I did it, he'll still kill my character for revenge. Your Kobold should use benefit of one thing - law. In a city, the monk can hardly attack the Kobold just like that. It will get a hell on his head. Remember, law is on your side. And strong countries are usually lawful. If he attacks you, just retreat, accuse him of attacking you. Be sure there IS a witness. Be sure what law permits and what it doesn't (so it won't turn out that the monk had the right to attack you). Torment him using the whole nice law system created just for that purpose .... uhm... well, what other purpose for law is there :devilish laugh: At the moment we're in a LE city full of corrupt guards that are all trying to kill us for no apparent reason. This is mainly because the DM doesn't want to have to choose from monster enemies, but it means that I'm not protected by the law. Thanks for the replies guys :). I don't mean to shoot down your ideas, but it's a tough problem. I'd point him to the BoED SureFoot, but he's LN, so he wont be to receptive to the "give mercy to the poor Kobold" line ;). Keep the opinions coming, I need all the help I can get :).
Capn Charlie 02-05-04, 03:27 AM	O I have the perfect solution. Take your (kickass IMO) character and find a DM who knows what the hell he is doing. You are in the right. Have your character wander off Kung FU style into the setting sun to bring forth his own style of justice to the world.
Joe Khol 02-05-04, 08:26 AM	Originally posted by Sun Stealer Our DM is a little inexperienced, and he enjoys watching the party infighting. So you're not entirely innocent in this then :) Why did you choose to play an evil character in a mixed alignment party with an inexperienced DM who will encourage party infighting? There is a reason the standard is to play a good party. Playing evil characters or running a mixed alignment party isn't easy and everyone, DM and all the players need to be able to deal with it to make it work. While you appear to generally have a handle on it, neither the other player or the DM do. I'm afraid you'll have to resign yourself to playing a little more conventionally (though possibly working up towards the more interesting stuff) or find a more experience/mature group.
Leap 02-05-04, 08:51 AM	Oh look! Alignment confusion! There's something I have not seen on these boards before! [disengages sarcasm circuit] ;) Can somebody pin down WOTC (preferably with sharp heavy objects) and actually get a coherent picture of alignment out of them (the one from the Good&Evil and Lawful&Chaotic paragraphs in the PHB combined with BOED and BOVD works well but is undone by the “specific alignment” paragraphs in the PHB (you know, the ones that say “xxx is the best alignment” etc)) Although if that was the case, monk types would be LG or LE, not LN, as LN is about the real world (family, love, anger, jobs, homes etc) whilst it is good and evil that makes the sacrifices in the personal life for a (alleged!!) “higher” cause…..good for the benefit of others (think of the Paladin in Baldurs Gate II), evil because such callousness naturally tends to preclude such things……and a monks path (and a samurai and many other “lawful” disciplined types) is very much about giving up love/family/home etc in order to attain “discipline” or to contemplate or follow “duty first”…………..
Leap 02-05-04, 09:01 AM	double post damn net-lag
Thorak 02-05-04, 11:19 AM	Sun Stealer, when I advocated making an even more evil character to kill the guy, I didn't mean to imply you should aim at having the character go any further in the game. Of course he'll get angry and kill the character by metagaming his new one. It's a given. He's childish. However, you've got the upper hand, because you could care less about this character. It's not revenge if you could care less what happens after you kill him. To make your revenge complete, when he attacks the character, smile at the DM and say "Hey, the character sucks anyway. I don't care if he kills him." Then, if he kills your NEXT character (his new character having no reason to be :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off at your 2nd new character), reach across the table and punch him. Or just raise your eyebrow and calmly ask him if he could at least pretend he has a mental age in the double digits. Because then, it's not an in-game conflict, he's taken it out of the game. He's just trying to use the game to deal with it.
Arakano 02-05-04, 11:31 AM	Yes. And unless he is 14 or less years old, he has absolutely NO excuse for such a behaviour.
Tzor 02-05-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Sun Stealer We found an amulet of protection, and because he wanted it and I had it, he killed my character, using the "he's evil" excuse. I'd "Kirk" the character. The character kills creatures because they are evil. Killing someone to get their items for self use is an evil act. "Exercise the prime directive" The character should kill himself because he is now evil! “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master. Based on this definition, comming directly from the SRD, not all evil creatures are random killers. Moreover, this definition just fit the actions of the evil killer. He killed the kobold because it was "convenient" and because he would get a magic item as a result. Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit. I can't see how one can make good and evil any clearer. All the actions of good and evil derive from this. Killing evil, for example, is a necessary neutural act for good in order to "protect innocent life." Killing for no reason whatsoever is not per se evil, there needs to be some selfish reason either fun or profit.
Sun Stealer 02-06-04, 06:27 AM	Thanks Cap'n, but I don't really want to change groups, everyone in my current one is a friend, they just need a little nudge in the right direction every now and then. Yes, I'm not completely innocent, Joe Khol :). I suppose I should've seen it coming, but I would've at least liked a chance to have my Kobold grow. Thorak, I don't really want to propogate the problem, one PK/campaign is enough, at least in a non-totally evil one ;). Tzor, thanks for the suggestions, but I don't think logic is going to win through here. I guess I'll just move back to good characters, it's a bit too much work maintaining an evil one. Thanks for the replies everybody :).
dantedarkstar 02-06-04, 09:40 AM	Originally posted by Sun Stealer At the moment we're in a LE city full of corrupt guards that are all trying to kill us for no apparent reason. Err... sounds like plain CE city to me. And in such barbaric enviroment, you can only depend on yourself. Absolutely get Undetectable Alignment (item or something, maybe make a pact with devils if you feel bold enough and have possibility to do so). UA lasts 24 hours, so 1/day is enough. World is probably full of murderous psychopats called Paladins, only waiting to slice you open on sight (and oh so great Detect Evil). It is something you do need (unless you actually go into <b>Lawful</b> city (regardless of other part of alignment).