Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stabs 04-14-07, 02:51 PM	Hi there, I wanted to get an idea of what people think of Cut Scenes. I'd define these as brief intermissions where the DM details an event the party aren't actually privvy to. An example would be a cut to the villain's lair where he's described as ordering a powerful minion to tail the party. Of course, the characters aren't expected to act on this information, it's just foreshadowing for the interest of players. So... what do you think? Is it interesting to have your DM give a bit of detail from the other side? Or is it cringeworthy every time the blurry lines take over the screen? Personally, as a player I like to see them, I suppose because so much of my D&Ding is inspired by books and films where this kind of thing is the norm. As a DM I like to use them to reveal a bit about the inner workings of the world. It's just a random event when a half-dragon bugbear shows up babbling about the Jade Monkey, but if the players have witnessed a Cut Scene explaining why, there's a glimmer of recognition and the event has all the more meaning. The characters might not know why, but at least the players don't feel they're wasting their time parlaying with a random mook about a random item. Thoughts?
HassanNinkin 04-14-07, 03:03 PM	I love that style, but in some games it can interfere. The optimal goal is for everyone to have a good time, and since the M.O. is storytelling, cutscenes are a very effective way of keeping the story on track and ensuring that the tale has multiple facets. The only problems lie in players who can't separate their knowledge and DMs who let the cutscenes take over and put the PCs in the background.
Ack 04-14-07, 03:07 PM	Cut scenes are all good and fine, provided two conditions are met: 1) no information that the PCs can actually act on comes up. Because someone will want to. 2) it doesn't happen in front of the PCs, or in any location they can identify. Because someone will want to do something about it. That said, go for it.
philipk 04-14-07, 03:10 PM	Another option is to use "visions" or "dreams" so the character can't be sure if it was real or just imagination.
daggeroflath 04-14-07, 03:24 PM	I like doing them and I've never had a player confused by them. These days TV and movies have people trained for rapid complicated cut-aways. Only one of my players ever meta-games in a bad way, so I just steer clear of cut-scenes that deal with topics about him.
DarkRhystar 04-14-07, 04:11 PM	Like many things, if done well, they can be an asset to the game. They can give players more insight into the world, the story that is unfolding around them, and their characters' places in it all. Fair warning though, make sure to try and maintain world consistency during them. There's a tendency to push it aside for suspense or to heighten the moment, but later on it can create plot holes. I don't often put video games and D&D on the same level, but the quote "Mommy, why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" should be kept in mind.
Magetastic 04-14-07, 06:24 PM	My group has cut scenes but only after a game... let me explain. During the game the DM keeps track of what happened and everything is just plain bare mechanics. But after the game is finished the DM retells the story of what happened adding fluff and occasionally cut scenes cinematic style, based on what happened when the players were behind the characters. That way we have the wargame and story elements of the game without having the two mess with the other. I was the one who suggested this system to the DM.:D
aotrscommander 04-14-07, 06:39 PM	I use 'em occasionally, usually as a means to freak the players out at the machinations of some unseen villain... I don't often put video games and D&D on the same level, but the quote "Mommy, why didn't they just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" should be kept in mind. Mind you, this is generally true of any plot! I always keep this in mind when writing my quests, period: 12: One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation. It's good advice!
Eatable_Dice 04-14-07, 11:21 PM	Very useful, and I also use introduction scenes to monsters, like when the ceiling starts coming down just when a Clay Golem comes through. No one gets hurt in the debris, and the monster makes a suitable appearance.
stabs 04-15-07, 01:09 AM	Ah, alright. Thanks for the advice all. philipk: I'd never thought of dreams, and I have no idea why. I should start to think about including some (though very rarely), as there are a couple of characters in the party who would appreciate that kind of thing. Magetastic: That's... a really interesting way to play. Not sure I'm won over, but now I'm wanting to see that kind of thing in action. Though it'd have to be someone else DMing, I'm forgetful. Maybe I could take notes and MSPaint the scenes later =/
Meems 04-15-07, 01:50 PM	Whew... I thought you were talking about the sort of cutscene where the DM uses it as an excuse to control the characters and railroad them. :) Your kind of cutscene, on the other hand, seems fine, IF you can rely on the players not to metagame. That's a big IF, unless your players are very experienced. But if you think you can handle it, then go for it! It would certainly be very effective dramatically.
daggeroflath 04-15-07, 01:58 PM	Whew... I thought you were talking about the sort of cutscene where the DM uses it as an excuse to control the characters and railroad them. :) Yuck! I hate few things in the world as much as that sort of cutscene. "The Villain runs away"... ummm, can I cast hold person to stop him?... "No, no you can't." Your kind of cutscene, on the other hand, seems fine, IF you can rely on the players not to metagame. That's a big IF, unless your players are very experienced. But if you think you can handle it, then go for it! It would certainly be very effective dramatically. Oddly enough some of the first time gamers I've had are better at not metagaming than one of my experienced players.
DarkRhystar 04-15-07, 04:03 PM	Oddly enough some of the first time gamers I've had are better at not metagaming than one of my experienced players. Why is that odd? Who is more likely to metagame: the guy who knows the rules, monsters, and spells like the back of his hand, or the guy who doesn't?
TokTok 04-15-07, 04:40 PM	This topic made me think of MC Chris' rant on RE and KH: "This isn't a cutscene! PRESS A! PRESS A!" But yeah, like Eatable_Dice said, introduction cutscenes to important fights can make the game very delicious. Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles always sticks in my mind because of how the bosses were introduced before the battle.
Sphyre 04-15-07, 05:58 PM	Another option is to use "visions" or "dreams" so the character can't be sure if it was real or just imagination. I have a DM that loves to use this type of foreshadowing. My character got high on some type of herb, and I got the visions of what happened in the past few years. The guy who offered me the smoke said that it was visions sent from my deity, much like he gets visions from his deity when he smokes it. I've never used it. I've always used NPCs to fill players in on the outside world - keeping it very much in a first person perspective. I want my players to make them special - not be special to begin with - being able to divine everything in dreams because "they are just that cool." I beleive you can really grow on your character when it's you, not me making your character special and unique.
Eatable_Dice 04-15-07, 06:24 PM	Any villain that does not make a clean getaway deserves to be killed. However, Iīm proud to say that my players seldom outsmart me.}:-) Also, these cutcenes you described are nice to see that the party villain is a well-developed character in his own right, not just a stack of HP and Stats. I would use such a scene to show how evil he is. Even though I do not actually tell them what he is doing, I leave enough hints so they know what happened. The dream idea is nice, but you could also have tortured survivors left in a dungeon, a journal forgotten or a simple blood smeared altar. I donīt know if you ever played Diablo I, but before entering the church, you had the chance to find a dying man telling about the horrible "Butcher". Ah, those are nice memories.
LadyAlaria 04-15-07, 06:55 PM	Cutscenes - not my style. It takes attention off the PCs, and that's what the players are there for. At worst it can just be grandstanding. If you want to build up the BBEG and add drama to the inevitable confrontation, you should have the BBEG's plots directly affect the PCs in various ways. And the emphasis is on the word "directly". If the Bugbear is using the Jade Monkey to create a famine, make sure the PCs feel the pinch - they pay a ridiculous sum for a meal of bread that's half sawdust, and a stew that's, well, best left undescribed. And if the cleric casts CF&W, the party is mobbed by hungry urchins. That will engage the players better than any cutscene.
Draginja 04-15-07, 08:41 PM	I'd have to say nay. It fells to video game-y and makes people forget what they are doing as they reflect on some of the better cutscenes they've seen in video games. I look forward to cut scening you soon!
Cariyaga 04-15-07, 11:10 PM	I love cutscenes. I play the game not just to play the game, but for the story. I love to see character development, whether it be Rei Woren, or Vanthus.
Cryforge 04-15-07, 11:40 PM	Cutscenes are awesome for foreshadowing, but you have to have a party who is mature enough to handle not using the possibly important out-of-character knowledge from it. However, sometimes it is best to have a scene that the PCs are expected to use knowledge from. If you describe a cutscene of the evil lich lord telling his loyal underling to hide his phylactery beyond the Gutmountain Gate, and the PCs later run into a mystic who mentions the Gutmountain Gate, the fact that the PCs have heard of it OOC adds as extra motivation to go there. In short, if you don't mind a little metagame-knowledge action, cutscenes can push along adventure hooks.
The Jake 04-16-07, 02:40 AM	I like cutscenes but they must be short, sharp and to the point. You then need to watch shifty players who try to metagame.
Daydreamer 04-16-07, 04:12 AM	unless your characters are major into long narrative make sure such scences are brief and to the point.
johnkretzer 04-16-07, 04:44 AM	I don't like them as they tend to break the 4th wall....also I like it when the DM surprises me. Though I sometimes do them for comic relief
daggeroflath 04-16-07, 08:59 AM	Why is that odd? Who is more likely to metagame: the guy who knows the rules, monsters, and spells like the back of his hand, or the guy who doesn't? I didn't mean that kind of metagaming (which honestly I don't have a problem with), I meant the kind where you "just happen" to go the place where the other PCs are fighting the BBEG or "just happen" to figure out something that you saw in a cutscene. One of my player's girlfriends came into the game and was very good at drawing a line between player and character knowledge, asked plenty of questions about what her character would know if she wasn't sure... she was an amazingly good roleplayer for a first time gamer. On the other hand I know that one of my long term players' characters will "just happen" to go places and figure things out if I ever do cutaways. Usually about 10 seconds afterwards... sigh.
stabs 04-16-07, 10:25 AM	Ah well. Lesson to everyone then: don't include highly sensitive information! So yeah, when the Villain is telling the Bugbear to go find the Jade Monkey, remember to describe a shadowed indistinct background that no one could possibly recognize. I've never really had a problem with someone acting on the information, since I could only imagine the rest of the players would groan if someone started stocking up on Arrows of Bugbear Slaying. And thanks for the comments all. Lady Alaria. Thanks for the insight. Don't think I'll drop them altogether, but I'll keep your words in mind and make sure I never drone on too long. (I really keep them to a few crucial lines. I think they have more impact that way). Draginja: Good point. I think for my current game, though, a lot of us really like including elements from video games, movies, books and comics. So. Now I feel the need to stat the Jade Monkey. The Bugbear needs to find it before the next full moon!
philipk 04-16-07, 03:09 PM	I have a DM that loves to use this type of foreshadowing. My character got high on some type of herb, and I got the visions of what happened in the past few years. The guy who offered me the smoke said that it was visions sent from my deity, much like he gets visions from his deity when he smokes it. I've never used it. I've always used NPCs to fill players in on the outside world - keeping it very much in a first person perspective. I want my players to make them special - not be special to begin with - being able to divine everything in dreams because "they are just that cool." I beleive you can really grow on your character when it's you, not me making your character special and unique. I've never actually used it, but it has crossed my mind as something possibly "cool". The one instance where I might is a current game where an ancient evil is awakening and it would be all people of a certian level of wisdom have the same vision/dream.
Sphyre 04-16-07, 07:48 PM	I've never actually used it, but it has crossed my mind as something possibly "cool". The one instance where I might is a current game where an ancient evil is awakening and it would be all people of a certian level of wisdom have the same vision/dream. Actually, after having talked to the DM, since this is the second game I've played with him, the visions we're having have always been in the same region... so there seems to be some lore as to why people get their visions across the badlands - those more succeptible to psionic impressions get them much clearer. I think that's neat - when you have some reason to back it up. But circumstance of being higher level makes it less immersive for me.
lrellok 04-16-07, 08:18 PM	NAY. BIG, BIG NAY. Way to many opportunities for metagaming. I've seen it done, and it was bad.
Aegeu 04-16-07, 08:51 PM	The reason cutscenes work in video games is because the characters' dialogue is controlled, and the players can't act on the knowledge that the kindly old man they are talking to is really an evil vampire that will kill them all. The reason tehy don't work in DnD is because the players will say "He's a vampire! Grab the stakes and holy water!" Really, when it's that obvious, it's impossible to avoid metagaming. In short, this (http://legendary.comicgenesis.com/d/20070320.html) is why you shouldn't use cutscenes. Be sure to read the comments at the bottom of the page.