Post/Author/DateTime	Post
A Chosen of Mystra 01-30-05, 03:13 PM	Hi I was looking at this post "Fighter Level 15 vs Sorcerer Level 15" and I look through and I find very much usefull stuff. And I copy it and print it out in my D&D notebook. Where I have some usefull notes about how to defeat different monsters. I just started it and I was wondering if anyone here has some good Hints & Tactics when it comes to fighting against monsters. Its a little bit hard for you guys maybe to answer, but if u have some very usefull stuff that players should know the plz! Plz tell me! :D Things I already have is: Defeating Beholders Fighter vs Sorcerer Defeating Trolls Thanks -Chosen
Steelborn86 01-30-05, 10:06 PM	Tactics rely too much on the group that you are currently in to list specific ones against certain monsters. For example, a group of 4 wizards tactics will be a whole lot different then a group with 2 fighters, a rogue, and a wizard.
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 01:20 AM	You should always diversify. In my experience, if you have 4 players, always go with the classic four: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, or something very similar to this set up. For example, A paladin could concievably fill the cleric role, because he has limited access to divine magic, and most importantly, healing. On the other hand, the paladin could also fill the role of the fighter, but wouldn't be able to rock quite as much damage due to his lack of a giant feat-chain. Of course, lots of excellent parties exist that have varied make-ups, but I strongly feel that something very close to the Fantastic Four (tm) approach will do the job the best. So, you don't want a 4 fighter party, because the first monster with flying/damage reduction capabilities will rock your socks off. You don't want a party of 4 wizards because of your total lack of a meat-shield, and if an area-affect spell requiring a Fort. save is dropped, you are in some deep yogurt. Mix it up, always make sure that at least one of your party members has a chance to completely rock the opposition. Diversify, choose feats, skills, and equipment wisely, and WORK AS A TEAM!!!
penchant 01-31-05, 01:48 AM	Diversification is good when going in a DM driven plot line, however I never railroad my players into a plot so I've found that when the party all choose the same class they can devise some severe tactics as long as they choose the circumstances. For instance I am currently running an all rogue group. One is fighter/rogue (swashbuckler), one is working towards shadow dancer and one towards assassin. The fourth, though not a rogue is fitting in as an evil ranger. This group has gotten the art of the ambush down pat and is devastating in round 1-2 of combat. They are taking out diversified parties that are twice their level. If (when) I get them into a combat not of their choosing, they might all die, but until then they can plan and scheme their way to victory. I've got to get the greek fire away from that ranger...
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 03:38 AM	Diversification is good when going in a DM driven plot line, however I never railroad my players into a plot so I've found that when the party all choose the same class they can devise some severe tactics as long as they choose the circumstances. For instance I am currently running an all rogue group. One is fighter/rogue (swashbuckler), one is working towards shadow dancer and one towards assassin. The fourth, though not a rogue is fitting in as an evil ranger. This group has gotten the art of the ambush down pat and is devastating in round 1-2 of combat. They are taking out diversified parties that are twice their level. If (when) I get them into a combat not of their choosing, they might all die, but until then they can plan and scheme their way to victory. I've got to get the greek fire away from that ranger... You just proved my point, penchant. Regardless of whether the plot is PC or DM driven, you can't have a party full of wizards, or clerics, or whatever. It just doesn't work. For example, what happens when those wizards get pushed into an anti-magic field? Time for new character sheets, that's what happens. Sure, your PCs are sneak attacking and ambushing everyone all to hell, but that's because you are letting them fight each combat to their choosing. It doesn't happen in real life. Everyone gets caught with their pants down occasionaly. Plus, if your party is fighting the same organization, or tribe of orcs, or whatever, then you are playing that organization very foolishly. After the first two or three patrols are wiped out in exactly the same method (lots of arrow wounds, traps, daggers sticking out of their eyeballs and kidneys), they're going to figure out that the group whacking their employees is full of sneaky rogues. So, they'll invest in measures to counter such tactics. (Sending out rogues and barbarians that can't be flanked to counter your sneak attacking fiends, for example) If you play your NPCs as stupid, then the players will fall into a rut. That gets boring. NPCs learn and adapt just as much as your party does. Besides, what's going to happen the first time your all rogue party is set against a few specialist enchanters? With those ridiculous excuses for will saves, they'll all be smiling and dropping their weapons. BAM, encounter over, party dead. The trick is to anticipate as many angles as possible, and prepare for them. No, you won't catch them all, but that's why you die. No one's perfect. However, if your entire party is comprised of rogues, as you say then wouldn't it make sense to send rogues after them? Especially ones 4 levels higher. Can't be flanked, and all that SA damage (which I will bet dollars to donuts on is how they kill everyone so efficiently) is down the drain. Now, to be fair, sometimes it is cool to play the members of a thieves guild, or an elite fighting unit, or a wizard's cabal, or whatever. But even if you DO get into that, you can still take countermeasures to avoid getting screwed, like getting some cohorts, investing in magic items to cover your weaknesses, and multiclassing a little to dip into other classes benefits. penchant, I'm not out to pick on your or anything, just trying to point out some flaws in going with 1 straight class for a party. P.S.-I certainly don't railroad my players. I let them screw themselves into the ground purely of their own volition. :D
penchant 01-31-05, 04:01 AM	I wasn't saying that a 1 class party was long lived. Just effective with unique tactics. How many adventurers die of natural causes anyways. My point is that if you go for the optimal party spread everytime, it gets a little boring and people settle into common tactics. My NPC's always act intelligently, but they also don't act with foreknowledge of the party's tactics. If they have no reason to expect an ambush, I won't give them that nfo. If they are higher level they get a roll. If the party uses the same set of tactics on a group and they let someone go, or someone with tracking can analyze the ambush site, then that information will spread. The party will get profiled and they will either die or have to change tactics. Yes, a 1 class party may be weak against specific attack forms, like an all mage party will die in a dead magic zone. But a dead magic zone is something that a mage party can research and think around. Antimagic field is a spell and smart mages can get around that. A rogue party (I almost typed rouge :rolleyes: ) when hit with a fighter ambush, has the ability to run and fade into the night. Then return after using their wand of healing and scrolls of stoneskin and whomp down. An all cleric party is really not easy to stop from any perspective and all paladins keep going like the energizer bunny. Yes, a 1 class party does have to think more, but the fun involved outweighs the attrition rate. Even a spread party has its own weaknesses just from the tactics they habitually employ. Wall of force the fighter away from teh party, hit the mage with everything the first round, tell the rogue that he can live as long as he keeps hiding until next tuesday, kill the cleric as he runs to check the mage or stops to dispell the wall and then pick the fighter off with missile and magic attacks. Dispell magic on the area of the corpses since if the rogue did not run away he will be looking to either loot his party or find a healing device on the cleric to raise someone. If he appears kill him slowly. I don't play or DM to create balance. I do it to disturb the balance. Really, I create a place and populate it with interest and imagery. Its up to the players to survive in it and have some fun while they try.
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 04:23 AM	You're telling me that whatever evil group your PCs face off against won't eventually pick up on the tactic that knocks their party off in 2 rounds? "Well Gee Golly Whiz Inspector Smith, they're all dead again. Stab wounds, spike pits, snares, and broadhead arrows through the base of the spine. Is there any possible way that this may have been done by the same foul knaves that offed the previous 6 parties in the exact same manner, and is this in anyway related to the fact that our employers have hired this bunch of dead half-orcs (and the 4 prior dead parties) to track said knaves down?" "Dude, there's no way you could know that, because no one got away to tell us this, and the same frickin method of execution and similar ambush sites wouldn't clue is in or anything." What, do the PCs sweep all the tracks away and hide the bodies every single time? Why, praytell, would the enemies not start expecting an ambush if it has happened on virtually every prior attack? Hell, they figured out that Jack the Ripper offed those 5 women back in the 1880s. Could it be because there were similar methods used? It's not like he left a lot of evidence lying around other than the bodies. And to further back me up, let's think about Vietnam. That was ambush city. Did U.S. soldiers need to be told twice? No, after they happened across their friends dead bodies, they started checking for traps and watching the trees. Sure, you described a method in which an entire balanced party can be owned in two rounds. It is a good plan, admitted, but Wall of Force is a pretty high-level spell, and you said yourself that this kind of thing only has low level applications. Also, what happens when the players start making their saving throws? Oh, and how are mages going to work around an anti-magic field if someone casts an anti-magic field in the middle of the combat area? It's not like they can just move to a more convienent spot. Personally, I wouldn't waste such a spell unless I knew I had said mages good and trapped in there. Then it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. Should I stop, or do you want more?
A Chosen of Mystra 01-31-05, 07:05 AM	I'm putting everything in my notebook, you'll never know what to meet when u play in D&D (if u haven't look through EVERY single one of the monster books) So keep 'em coming! Thanks Alot -Chosen
penchant 01-31-05, 07:14 AM	Oh, no please keep ignoring what my post said. About 3/4 of your post is about NPCs learning from the methods and I believe that I specifcally mentioned and they let someone go, or someone with tracking can analyze the ambush site, then that information will spread So yes, if an NPC party has someone who can find the bodies and/or read the site of the attacks, then they will. However if the PC party simply has the skills to make people disappear with no signs left over, then there will be no information for the NPC's... just like in Vietnam. And Anti magic field is considerably higher level than wall of force. As for moving out of the AOE, what is the AOE? Anti magic shell in 2e was pretty small, and I haven't seen the new write-up. If you are dealing with a high level all mage group then you can still counter spell. Or pay to get a ring of counterspelling filled since this seems to be the one mages bane you can think of.
Draco Strang 01-31-05, 10:53 AM	Penchant, my dear, sweet penchant, I completely dig your requirement of beating a tracking DC (actually, it'd have to be survival...track feat, but whatever. Does this mean that only rangers and those who have taken the track feat can look at a crime scene and determine basic facts?) to immediately glean this useful info after 1 encounter. Sure, it's a frickin mystery the first time and only an experienced investigator or ranger could be expected to know enough to extrapolate such facts from the bodies. Anyone could have done it. But....when the same methods are used over and over and over again it becomes a little apparent who's doing it, what they're doing, and anything you might be able to do to fix the problem you're gonna have when they drop the hammer again. So, you prep for it and catch them unawares. I can't understand your reasoning that "It doesn't matter if they've been hit twice or two hundred times, if someone can't make a survival check, then the NPCs will just fall into the trap over and over again, like lemmings." Hell, no wonder your players do the same thing time and again. You let them get away with it. You think it'd work in real life? Serial killers get caught, ambushers get ambushed themselves, and suprises happen in combat all the time. Problem is, if you're a one-trick pony, someone's going to catch on eventually just because of your insistence on repetition. Are you telling me your NPCs dont find the bodies after each ambush and say "Crap, that's the 4th party this week that's been killed. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our strategy so we dont die anymore."? Honestly, anyone from Elminster right on down to the village idiot can look at 3 similar piles of bodies and go "yea, a change is in order". Check or no check. As for the PCs making all the bodies disappear everytime, and erase the ambush, are you requiring a survial/track roll of them? If not. that's baloney. It takes a lot more effort to clean up a murder scene than to notice one that's there, however subtle the signs are. The DC to erase would have to be higher than whatever arbitrary DC your NPCS keep biffing to fail from connecting these logical events. Just plain letting them get away with it and saying "Nope, no one can ever see what you did hear, good job guys." is just plain bad DMing. But whatever, feel free to keep them stuck to the same script, like some Baldur's Gate enemy (which, by the way, is exactly what you are doing if they keep running into the same tactic over and over again. Play the game and see what I mean) unless they can make some magic survival check to gain insight on something that should be frickin common sense. It's your game man. Now, onto those mages. Of course the AOE of anti-magic is small. That's why you don't drop it in the middle of a field, hoss. You wait until they're in a confined space, or somewhere that you specifically WANT them to be when you cast it. As for counterspelling, indeed, it does happen. But it works both ways champ, if the PCs can do it, then so can my wizards pulled straight from the DMG statblocks.
penchant 02-01-05, 02:02 AM	Penchant, my dear, sweet penchant, I completely dig your requirement of beating a tracking DC (actually, it'd have to be survival...track feat, but whatever. Does this mean that only rangers and those who have taken the track feat can look at a crime scene and determine basic facts?) to immediately glean this useful info after 1 encounter. Sure, it's a frickin mystery the first time and only an experienced investigator or ranger could be expected to know enough to extrapolate such facts from the bodies. Anyone could have done it. So are you saying only and experienced invesigator can analyze a crime scene or are you saying anyonce could do it? But....when the same methods are used over and over and over again it becomes a little apparent who's doing it, what they're doing, and anything you might be able to do to fix the problem you're gonna have when they drop the hammer again. So, you prep for it and catch them unawares. I can't understand your reasoning that "It doesn't matter if they've been hit twice or two hundred times, if someone can't make a survival check, then the NPCs will just fall into the trap over and over again, like lemmings." Yes if my players were dumb and hit the same groups with the same tactics in the same locations every time, they would die quickly. So far they haven't been. They have been doing recon, spying on the enemy, changing ambush points and letting some groups get through without seeing anything. They have been using effective tactics which inlcude, changing effective tactics. Hell, no wonder your players do the same thing time and again. You let them get away with it. You think it'd work in real life? Serial killers get caught, ambushers get ambushed themselves, and suprises happen in combat all the time. Problem is, if you're a one-trick pony, someone's going to catch on eventually just because of your insistence on repetition. And most serial killers are not caught. They make a big deal about it when they do, but generally serial killers get away with it because they change location, tactics and leave long periods between victims. Its only on TV that serial killers leave clues to find them. Are you telling me your NPCs dont find the bodies after each ambush and say "Crap, that's the 4th party this week that's been killed. Maybe we need to re-evaluate our strategy so we dont die anymore."? Honestly, anyone from Elminster right on down to the village idiot can look at 3 similar piles of bodies and go "yea, a change is in order". Check or no check. No, most of the attacks are happening in a large forest. There are only three roads through the forest and the bodies are being pulled and dumped 100 yards inside the tree line. The biggest problem the PC's are facing is the occasional troll or orc party. The evil organization in question is more convinced that it is a dangerous forest filled with monsters than with a raiding party of rogues. As has been the party's intention. As for the PCs making all the bodies disappear everytime, and erase the ambush, are you requiring a survial/track roll of them? If not. that's baloney. It takes a lot more effort to clean up a murder scene than to notice one that's there, however subtle the signs are. The DC to erase would have to be higher than whatever arbitrary DC your NPCS keep biffing to fail from connecting these logical events. Just plain letting them get away with it and saying "Nope, no one can ever see what you did hear, good job guys." is just plain bad DMing. But whatever, feel free to keep them stuck to the same script, like some Baldur's Gate enemy (which, by the way, is exactly what you are doing if they keep running into the same tactic over and over again. Play the game and see what I mean) unless they can make some magic survival check to gain insight on something that should be frickin common sense. It's your game man. As long as they play smart there will be no script. I'm not going to railroad them just because I'm getting bored. They are enjoying themselves for now and I'm content with that. Eventually the evil group will find an alternate route and the party will have to figure something else out. That's the way it is. The only loophole I'm planning on is sending a group of good adventurers out to hunt for "the monsters in the woods." We'll see how that goes. Now, onto those mages. Of course the AOE of anti-magic is small. That's why you don't drop it in the middle of a field, hoss. You wait until they're in a confined space, or somewhere that you specifically WANT them to be when you cast it. As for counterspelling, indeed, it does happen. But it works both ways champ, if the PCs can do it, then so can my wizards pulled straight from the DMG statblocks. That's right, PC mages have to smart. That is my contention. I believe what you were saying was that you cannot think your way around an anti-magic shell. I was disputing that. Saying that NPC's can out think PC's is just being argumentative. The magic system is designed so there is always a way around something, and that favors the PC's since you have 3 or more PC's trying to outthink one DM. That is simply to thier advantage as it should be.
Draco Strang 02-01-05, 06:45 AM	So are you saying only and experienced invesigator can analyze a crime scene or are you saying anyonce could do it?. Penchant, what I am saying is that sure, it'll take CSI Miami to figure out who forged said arrowheads, and what exact type of poison is being used, and how long the bodies have been dead to the hour, but your average soldier/underworld operative has enough practical experience and training look over a murder scene or old battlefield and determine the basics of what went on. And if your NPC organization is sending patrols out into the woods, or whatever they're doing, then the patrols were probably assigned a route to cover, and the ambush would almost certainly have to happen along that route. So when they don't come back, you send someone else along the route to check it out, and they'll come across what happened. Even if the bodies arent there, tons of tracks, broken vegetation, blood, score marks on trees, dropped equipment, whatever. Yes if my players were dumb and hit the same groups with the same tactics in the same locations every time, they would die quickly. So far they haven't been. They have been doing recon, spying on the enemy, changing ambush points and letting some groups get through without seeing anything. They have been using effective tactics which inlcude, changing effective tactics.. I'm not saying your pc's are standing around in point A all day and waiting for a patrol to come by. what I contest is that not even one NPC has managed to break off and get back to HQ, telling everyone that it's a group of angry rogues/rangers and not monsters? And most serial killers are not caught. They make a big deal about it when they do, but generally serial killers get away with it because they change location, tactics and leave long periods between victims. Its only on TV that serial killers leave clues to find them. Not quite. They caught onto Manson, Son of Sam, and Dahmer. Those guys made a big deal about changing location and tactics. Someone was smart enough to catch them. However, somehow I think we took too far a tangent with the serial killer example, because it doesn't really apply to military operations. So, let's both drop it for the sake of post brevity and clarity. No, most of the attacks are happening in a large forest. There are only three roads through the forest and the bodies are being pulled and dumped 100 yards inside the tree line. The biggest problem the PC's are facing is the occasional troll or orc party. The evil organization in question is more convinced that it is a dangerous forest filled with monsters than with a raiding party of rogues. As has been the party's intention.. Why would they be convinced that it's monsters? If they're coming across a blank area, then they should be more worried about a party of really good rogues than monsters. If monsters were doing it, there should be piles of worg poop, troll footprints, and other signs of passing that monsters would leave behind. Also, any NPC scouts/investigators worth their salt would walk off into the woods a small ways and see if they could find any clue of their missing comrades. And you never answered my question. Are you requiring your PCs to make some sort of skill check or percentile roll to determine if they manage to erase all signs of the ambush? Them being able to doctor a site to the point that some NPC can't find anything every single time seems kinda fishy, as well as one-sided. If I was a BBEG and I kept losing patrols, you can be damned sure that I'd invest some gold in a few NPC rangers that had their survival and knowledge nature skills maxxed out, combing the woods for something. As long as they play smart there will be no script. I'm not going to railroad them just because I'm getting bored. They are enjoying themselves for now and I'm content with that. Eventually the evil group will find an alternate route and the party will have to figure something else out. That's the way it is. The only loophole I'm planning on is sending a group of good adventurers out to hunt for "the monsters in the woods." We'll see how that goes.. I never said there had to be railroading. What I meant by "script" was enemies that just go out and do the same thing, i.e. walk right into your ambushes without buffing themselves to repel something like an ambush. The term "script" means a pattern that the NPC will unfailingly follow, as dictated by whoever wrote the "script" (pattern of behavior, not series of events). Never did I mean to refer to your storyline by using the word script. That's right, PC mages have to smart. That is my contention. I believe what you were saying was that you cannot think your way around an anti-magic shell. I was disputing that. Saying that NPC's can out think PC's is just being argumentative. The magic system is designed so there is always a way around something, and that favors the PC's since you have 3 or more PC's trying to outthink one DM. That is simply to thier advantage as it should be. I'm certainly not saying PCs can't learn to work around a magic field. It's just damn, damn hard to do so. This part of our argument is also tangential, and should be dropped because it takes away from the rest of our posts. I eagerly look forward to your next post. Love, Draco Strang :plotting:
penchant 02-01-05, 07:57 AM	Last post for the night... morning... whatever. Yep, sorry about the one point. Among the rogues there is one ranger and he is using his tracking feat to cover the evidence after the fact. He makes a roll and that is the DC that anyone has to clearly discern what happened. If they make it then they recognize that something happened at that location. Then they can look closer and I give them a bonus of +5 since once you narrow it down to an area it is easier. And yes, once done then they will likely find the bodies since they will widen their search. So far it hasn't happened. This has only been going on for two game sessions, and so far the combat has lasted only 2 rounds each time. One surprise round and one round that the PC's have won initiative (they all took Improved init as their feat). With everyone able to make their sneak attacks and the ranger to shoot anyone that doesn't fall, it has worked very well. With only one or two wounds per person there is very little blood. And with no successful attacks by the defenders there really is no combat scene. I tried sending the third caravan with a wagon that had soldiers hiding inside, but they smelled a trap and ignored the encounter. They (BGs) think its monsters as there already are trolls and orcs in the woods that do regularly prey on travellers. Like I said, that's the worst encounters that PC's have had to deal with in terms of getting hurt and taking damage. As to the mages, you did say they couldn't: Oh, and how are mages going to work around an anti-magic field if someone casts an anti-magic field in the middle of the combat area? It's not like they can just move to a more convienent spot. My contention is that they can since it is a small area spell and meant to be a defensive spell for a mage and not an offensive one.
Draco Strang 02-01-05, 09:36 AM	Last post for the night... morning... whatever.. Yea, I know how you feel. I sleep until 11 PM est. every night, and then get up and do homework/study until my 8 AM class the next day. I just got back from Psych, time to hit the hay. As to the mages, you did say they couldn't:.. Ok, so ya got me.....damn. My contention is that they can since it is a small area spell and meant to be a defensive spell for a mage and not an offensive one. On the contrary, I think that anti-magic field is an excellent offensive spell. If you know you are going to be facing several hi-level casters, if you can get your one wizard (or cleric, or whatever) to cast it, and put two fighters in front of him, it becomes a pretty powerful little "flying V" of a spell, because as long as your mage keeps with them, (and he will, with a giant meatwall in front of him) then the barbarians or fighters can pretty much have their way with the mages they'll be facing, as any offensive spells simply cease to exist within the area. Hell, you could always use the Enlarge Spell feat, and turn it into a 20 foot radius. If you did that in a small room, it's one hell of an offensive spell, because the mages simply have no power when they're confined to that room.
UltimateReality 02-01-05, 02:21 PM	I was looking at this post "Fighter Level 15 vs Sorcerer Level 15" and I look through and I find very much usefull stuff. And I copy it and print it out in my D&D notebook. Where I have some usefull notes about how to defeat different monsters. I just started it and I was wondering if anyone here has some good Hints & Tactics when it comes to fighting against monsters. I made up a general tactics cheat sheet for myself as a DM and player as I'm not very strategically oriented (more of a storyline person) and I have players and DMs who are extremely tactically apt. It's a short list of questions to consider, about a page long, and fairly general, i.e. not specific to any one monster, class, race, etc. I can send it to you via PM or email if you wish. (Actually, I may just find a website to host it on now I think of it...) If you're looking for moster/class/race-specific detail, I recommend going over the PHB, MMs and any splat and campaign books you can get your hands on in detail. Read the abilities that everything/one gets. Note the weaknesses. If you were in charge of one of these characters or monsters during combat, figure out what attacks you would use and what weaknesses you would try to cover. HOWEVER. If you are planning to use this knowledge in a game you are a player in, make sure you roll the appropriate Knowledge checks first! Otherwise, using this knowledge is metagaming and your DM is sure to be ******.
penchant 02-02-05, 02:39 AM	On the contrary, I think that anti-magic field is an excellent offensive spell. If you know you are going to be facing several hi-level casters, if you can get your one wizard (or cleric, or whatever) to cast it, and put two fighters in front of him, it becomes a pretty powerful little "flying V" of a spell, because as long as your mage keeps with them, (and he will, with a giant meatwall in front of him) then the barbarians or fighters can pretty much have their way with the mages they'll be facing, as any offensive spells simply cease to exist within the area. Hell, you could always use the Enlarge Spell feat, and turn it into a 20 foot radius. If you did that in a small room, it's one hell of an offensive spell, because the mages simply have no power when they're confined to that room. OK, but that is just one mage. Remeber we were talking about a whole party of mages/sorcerers. The first rule that a group of mages would use is to keep apart from each other at least the diameter of a fireball, knowing that anything would only affect one spell caster out of the group. Heck, all fighters should know that by 5th level. Considering the range of most spells, they would usually use movement spells to surround a group of opponents in the first round, and then half be predetermined to diffuse enemy defenses and counter magic, while the other half wreaks evokation glory upon them. I haven't actually been in or ran for an all mage party before, however I will concede one major weakness of a mage party as I have run two mages alone before. They will overthink themselves till the dark moon shines. These two mages (high level) came upon a caravan of draconians and a few young dragons, carrying a palaquin of every chromatic color dragon control orb. They sat invisibly out of sight range while the caravan moved through the valley and while the players debated for about half an hour in game time about what to do, I advanced time giving them ample reminders of the status of the caravan until it went into the dark fortress. They could not agree on exactly what to do. Admittedly the forces would have been difficult to destroy, even for two high level mages. But they couldn't even agree to do a hit and run for the orbs, or how to carry it out. It was very well done in character, as they quibbled over the intricacies of this and that spell, and I can easily imagine them as mages sitting on a treetop arguing. So I guess effectiveness can be mitigated by certain character personalities. :D
Draco Strang 02-02-05, 07:11 AM	OK, but that is just one mage. Remeber we were talking about a whole party of mages/sorcerers. The first rule that a group of mages would use is to keep apart from each other at least the diameter of a fireball, knowing that anything would only affect one spell caster out of the group. Heck, all fighters should know that by 5th level. Considering the range of most spells, they would usually use movement spells to surround a group of opponents in the first round, and then half be predetermined to diffuse enemy defenses and counter magic, while the other half wreaks evokation glory upon them. Yes, but in the small area we're talking about, fireballs are a moot point. High-level mages arent going to want to drop large area spells because they don't want to recieve the backlash from said spell. So I guess effectiveness can be mitigated by certain character personalities. :D In spades sir, in spades.
penchant 02-03-05, 12:42 AM	OK, so the way to defeat a party of mages is to get them all to be trapped in a 40' x 40' room with a mage who has anti-magic shell with AOE extended and a group of fighters... while I agree that that would work, I see it as highly unlikely.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 12:49 AM	OK, so the way to defeat a party of mages is to get them all to be trapped in a 40' x 40' room with a mage who has anti-magic shell with AOE extended and a group of fighters... while I agree that that would work, I see it as highly unlikely. Well, it would be possible without the fighters. I'd love to see a group of level 20 mages beating on each other with masterwork quarterstaffs, attack bonuses of something in the range of +14/+9. And I really don't see how it would be unlikely. If they're on a dungeon crawl, they've gotta go into the room sometime.
Supercilious 02-03-05, 12:54 AM	OK, so the way to defeat a party of mages is to get them all to be trapped in a 40' x 40' room with a mage who has anti-magic shell with AOE extended and a group of fighters... while I agree that that would work, I see it as highly unlikely. Not if their enemies knew mages were coming, and after however many henchmen die to fireball odds are their enemies will realize that OH SNAP OUR GUYS ARE DYING!?!?!? I do not think you need a DC in Survival to realize that a pile of charred flesh that used to be Frank was burned to death. Nor do I think a survival DC is needed to determine that Bill was killed the same way last week, and Ted before him. Pretty soon I would be sending a team of mage-hunts wearing fire-resistent armour to go put the smack on them. And if the mages came to me I would put up some anti-magic shields. One trick gets old fast, and people learn fast. I am no "expert tracker" but pattern recognition is a learned skill that EVERYONE gets. I support Dracostang
penchant 02-03-05, 03:54 AM	I'm not saying that people cannot adapt to fighting mages, simply that a smart mage would realize that they should not get trapped in a small room. Being in confined spaces seriously negates much of the destructive power of a mage, and my contention is that it would be difficult to get an entire party of mages to be trapped in a room where you could subject them to an antimagic shell that they can't get away from. Unless you play mages stupid, its just not likely. I didn't say impossible, because you can always outsmart someone if you are clever enough, just unlikely. As far as reconizing whether or not someone was killed by a mage is not the issue. That was part of the dicsussion about a rogue party that has the means and motive to disquise their actions. A powerful mage group adveritses that they are mages and that they kill people with magic. People like the Red Wizards of Thay. They say, "We're mages, don't mess with us or you will discover what real suffering is!" Besides, fire is only one small part of a mages repetior. As far as the dungeon crawl, that has become less of the standard adventure that it used to be. Perhaps that's why many of the FR adventures start out with Elminster hiring someone else to go into the dungeon. However, yes an all mage party in a dungeon crawl scenario would be less effective than a balanced party. That is because that scenario is designed to require one.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 04:55 AM	Not if their enemies knew mages were coming, and after however many henchmen die to fireball odds are their enemies will realize that OH SNAP OUR GUYS ARE DYING!?!?!? I do not think you need a DC in Survival to realize that a pile of charred flesh that used to be Frank was burned to death. Nor do I think a survival DC is needed to determine that Bill was killed the same way last week, and Ted before him. Pretty soon I would be sending a team of mage-hunts wearing fire-resistent armour to go put the smack on them. And if the mages came to me I would put up some anti-magic shields. One trick gets old fast, and people learn fast. I am no "expert tracker" but pattern recognition is a learned skill that EVERYONE gets. I support Dracostang Super, thanks for your support, but you are taking the argument out of context. The ambushes we were discussing were made by rogues and a ranger in the middle of the woods, under a variety of circumstances. Sure, it's easy to see a fireball killed someone, but that's completely out of the scope of the argument, man. As for the mages, penchant. What if the only way to get through the dungeon or accomplish the goal is to move through the room? That's my point. If have to get from point A to point B, and the only way to point B is through that room....then guess what? By default, those mages have got to walk through that door. Then BAM, ya drop the hammer.
penchant 02-03-05, 05:27 AM	Teleport.. dimension door... etherial jaunt... all of which bypass the shell as long as the other end is outside the AoE. I also surmise you missed my post before you posted.
Draco Strang 02-03-05, 05:32 AM	Teleport.. dimension door... etherial jaunt... all of which bypass the shell as long as the other end is outside the AoE. I also surmise you missed my post before you posted. Well, you surmised right, I did miss the post. Seems though, was all we both did was admonish Supercilious. So what we're both driving at here is that a mage's survivability comes down to spell selection, eh? It does make sense.
CapnSwashbuckler 02-03-05, 06:00 AM	As for the original post... One thing that I find useful is the ability to drop the proverbial TacNuke on any one type of opposition, if you can do so without hindering your abilities in other areas. In one campaign I played a cleric with the Glory domain, a high charisma, the Power Attack feat and the maul out of A&E as my weapon. The DM knew that I could TacNuke any undead he threw at us, so we ended up never having to worry about them. My character was the party face anyway and the maul is a really neat change of pace which, being two-handed without Exotic Weapon Proficiency, synergizes well with Power Attack (besides being really good at crushing skellies), so I was going only barely out of my way in order to attain a gigantic deterrence effect. Speaking of the undead, Power Attack is a good way to deal with them as most zombies and skeletons, and ghouls as well, have the armor class of suck. There're like, maybe two types of skeletons in the MM which have an AC above 15. Even the higher-CR skeletons have an AC of suck. (I'm not the kind of player who pores over the MM for such details - I DM as well, so I make good use of it.) A lot of undead have a really low AC, come to think of it.
Tsuyoshi500 02-03-05, 07:49 AM	I would have to say, the best classes are the most versatile. If you can make a party out of Rogues, Sorcs and/or Clerics, you've got it made. Rogues can use magic device, deal massive combat damage with Sneak attack, and have the best skill selection possible. In any situation, a rogue has an answer, even if it is running away. Furthermore, anything a Rogue can't do, a Sorc can. Invisiblity and Fly let you tag along with the rogue without being conspicuous, and tactical spells like Disintegrate (your all purpose wall-opener, pit builder and anti-wizard weapon), wall of force, grease, spider climb, etc. can get the whole team out of whatever scrapes the rogue can't finesse. Finally, the cleric can buff himself up past any fighter or barbarian given some preparation. With the cleric tanking, the rogue can sneak attack and the sorc can drop area bombs, or nullify specific targets. And need I mention that the cleric can heal? At that point, there is no need for anyone else. Just double up on what you've already got if you've got more players. The only other path I would suggest is a fighter type that can inflict most of the combat 'ailments' with trip, sunder, etc. But that's tertiary, really. The most important thing to remember about this kinda party is to use your environment. Disintegrate the floor under the enemy, build traps and ambushes. Create chokepoint situations so you only have to face the enemy one at a time, and where larger monsters don't get all their attacks. Anyway, that's my idea of an ideal party. Mix and match as you will.