Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 01:25 AM	There has been some talk lately about healing, clerics, and whether a cleric is essential to the party. Further, if a cleric is present, is his or her role relegated to healing? This has led me to put together this guide to damage mitigation. I will discuss the three main types of damage mitigation: absorption, removal, and prevention. I will also look at some feats, spells, classes, and items that are effective in those areas. To finish, I will discuss various ways in which the three are combined for an overall better effect. I will try to keep this as general as possible, so as to be more useful to a greater number of people. As such I will avoid things like the artificer, which is too campaign specific. I will also avoid things that generally require you to build your entire character around them, unless they focus on providing damage mitigation for the entire party. I also have mentioned prestige classes very sparingly. This becuase there are literally hundrids of different ones to choose from, and they combine many different aspects of character design and the game. Use the same threories behind choosing a base class as you would prestige class. In general though I tried to provide the reasons behind why something is good, instead of a laundry list of good stuff. Over the course of the game your character will suffer damage. It can come in many forms: a blow from an enemy’s sword, the dragon’s breath weapon, and falling in a cleverly hidden hole, are just a few possibilities. Needless to say, taking damage will happen; it is prudent to plan for it. Recently, a theory stating that it is better to kill your enemy quickly than worry about damage mitigation has begun to circulate. The premise is that because damage outstrips removal, you shouldn‘t bother with it at all. I’ll cover this in more detail when I get to my section on removal. For now I will point out that monsters generally have more hit points, and higher damage thresholds, then the average PC. Thus trading blow for blow with the monster, and not concerning yourself with your own diminishing hit point totals is a recipe for failure. A cleric or druid dedicated to healing is not necessary, and a party without one is not doomed, but having someone who focuses on the role of damage mitigation is a necessity. They don’t have to be the traditional healbot, but they do have to be there. There are various ways in which damage mitigation can be done. Keep in mind a couple of things: 1) Just because some else in the party is focusing on it, does not mean you can (or should) ignore it. Everyone in the party should have at least some damage mitigation. 2) While I am intending to make this comprehensive, I cannot cover everything. Most notably I do not own the Magic Item Compendium, or the Miniatures Handbook. I will be focusing on core only items, and will unfortunately have to skip over the healer class. If someone is familiar with the healer, I’d be glad to add your observations. Damage Absorption In its simplest form, damage absorption is having so many HP that you soak up the enemy’s attacks like a sponge. The strategy behind this method of mitigation is simple: position yourself so the enemy attacks you instead of a more vulnerable team member. Then take the beats, and keep on going. This idea is also referred to as meat shield, damage sponge, or damage soak. While its implementation is the easiest (“stand there and block with your face”), it often proves the hardest to successfully pull off. You are taking the brunt of enemy attacks. At lower levels this is easier because monster deal less damage. At higher levels this is not easy, because things like dragon can dish out hundreds of points in a full attack. I highly recommend combining this method with others in order for it to be effective. This method works extremely well with prevention. Unfortunately, it’s weakest against large area effects. High hit points are vital for the meat shield. Any race with a Constitution bonus, like the dwarf, is a good bet. I recommend choosing a class with at least a d10 hit die. A d12 is better. In core, good class choices for this are barbarian, fighter, and paladin. Noncore options include the knight and dragon shaman from the PHB 2. The Samurai and Swashbuckler also offer good hit dice. For feats, you want to increase your ability to continue fighting after you’ve taken a beating, or to increase the amount of damage you can take. Diehard is a good example of this, as is Improved Toughness from the Complete Warrior. Spells and items that increase your Constitution are also good. Look for amulets of health, tomes of gainful exercise, and spells like bear’s endurance. The trick to damage absorption is twofold: having enough hit points, and making sure you’re an effective wall. For the former, your best bet is to combine damage absorption with other methods of damage mitigation. To couple it with removal, paladins get easy access to cure spells and lay on hands. For prevention, a barbarian’s damage reduction lends itself nicely to the cause. Effective walls may want to dabble in a bit of battlefield control. Try feats like Improved Grapple or Improved Trip to tie up and limit the enemy’s mobility. Reach weapons and Combat Reflexes will also serve you well. Remember that a long spear is a simple weapon, so just about everyone can use one. The knight’s to ability to “call out” an opponent works well here too.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 01:26 AM	Damage Removal Commonly just called healing, damage removal is the most common form of damage mitigation. As such, it has the most theories about it. While a cleric is the best class for healing, it is not the only one who can do this. It just does it best. Further, if there is a cleric in the party, they don’t have to be stuck filling this role. Clerics can do other things as well. A good example is the buff/debuff. With spells like bull’s strength and doom, they can fill this role and still be competent healers. However, many people still assume that a cleric equals healbot. When you make a cleric, you need to make it clear to the rest of the group if you are focusing on healing or not. I’d like to discuss the theory that damage outstrips healing, and therefore healing in combat is ineffective. When compared to spells that scale with caster level, such as the cure spells, then this true. Cure light wounds loses a lot of its usefulness after level 5. Similarly, cure critical wounds is not as effective around 18th level as it was at 10th. But this does not take into account that Conjuration (healing) spells scale upwards into the high teens. Heal takes over for the lesser used cures. The best answer to area effects such as delayed blast fireball is still a mass cure spell. Also, spells like restoration and its greater form can restore harmful effects, including ability damage and negative levels. This theory also assumes that you can kill the opponent before they can kill you. As already pointed out, monsters tend to have more hit points than you and deal more damage. For example, a CR 21 dragon has 500-600 hit points. A 20th level barbarian with a Con of 26 has, on average, 297 hit points. Assuming you both deal 200 points of damage in a round, you’ll go down first. This is further exaggerated when monsters have some form of damage mitigation. Take a hydra, for instance. It has a high pool of hit points and deals a lot of damage over a short period of time. On top of that, it has fast healing. So even if you are trading it blow for blow, it’s removing a portion of your damage each round, while you’re not. Another problem with the theory is that it assumes you can deal sufficient damage to the creature to affect it. If it has energy resistances, damage reduction, miss chances, or other ways to prevent your damage from getting through, then your task is substantially harder. The other thing to consider is that when other party members drop due to a lack of damage mitigation, the group’s overall combat effectiveness diminishes. Once the damage per round guy falls, you can’t deal significant damage to your target anymore. If you lose the debuffer, the monster’s combat effectiveness rises. Granted, you should build in redundancies to ensure you don’t get totally hooped, but you can keep your team fighting longer and better with damage mitigation. With that out of the way, I’d like to examine the art of healing, or removing damage, more closely. As already sated the best class for doing this is the good-aligned cleric. The ability to cast cure spells spontaneously allows you to prepare other spells in their place. This makes you more versatile, so you can concentrate on being a healer, or make yourself generally good at it while excelling in other areas too. Options that are good for healing are more powerful when you can also apply them to other things. For example, the feats Empower Spell and Maximize Spell will boost your cures, but they also pump your damage spells. In noncore, I recommend Divine Metamagic, as it doesn’t require advance prep or raise the level of a spell. Quicken Spell is another good option. With DMM (Quicken) you can quicken a cure spell, then cast another damaging spell. Divine Spell Power is another really good feat. It increases all caster level effects for a spell. Further, because you can get a synergy bonus to your turn undead check from it, 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion) and the Glory domain give you a +7 to the check before your Charisma is factored in. It’s unlikely you’ll blunder the check and have a lower caster level. We can also include Extend Spell in this lot. It is good for extending the duration of your buffs, and it doubles the effectiveness of vigor, lesser vigor, and their mass versions. Reach Spell is another good feat. It lets you throw a cure spell at your ally, and harmful touch spells at the enemy. Another thing to consider are feats that remove damage from you, even if you are not the healer. Vital Recovery, from Tome of Battle, allows you to recover hit points when you recover your maneuvers. This can come in very handy for the frontline, or damage prevention, as you rely less on the removal and more on actions you’d be taking anyways. Other good feats in this light are ones that grant faster healing. I believe they are found in the Complete Warrior. When you rest you recover hit points faster, thus require less magic healing to get back up to an acceptable level in the morning. In that vein someone maxing out ranks in Heal would be useful. There are many feats that effect only healing spells. While they are great at what they do, I do not recommend them unless damage removal is the focus of your character, or at the least a major element of it. If you want to have a back up in healing, but focus on something else, you’re better off finding a feat that will be good for both healing and your focus area (see above for examples and suggestions). Examples of these healing-only feats include Augmented Healing, Revivy, and Sacred Boost.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 01:27 AM	Damage Prevention The third form of damage mitigation that I’m going to talk about is prevention. The basic premise of this is prevent the damage from ever landing in the first place. This is generally accomplished in three broad ways: high Acs and saves, miss chances, and damage reduction and resistance. I trust the benefits of high ACs and saves are obvious. Miss chances deserve some consideration. Some prestige classs, like the Pious Templar from Complete Divine, offer an evasion-like affect to Fortitude and Will saves. There’s also good old Evasion itself. To apply this to AC, use miss chances. No matter what the attack result is, there is a chance it could miss. An easy way to pick this up is with concealment, which can offer 20-50% miss chance. Other common ways are with effects like being ethereal, and or invisible. For those who wand DR and energy resistance, they’re more commonly found on monsters, but PCs can access it through the barbarian class, and the wizard has resistance and stone skin. Many races, core or otherwise, have energy resistance. Another good way to prevent damge is spell resistance. Most damaging spells allow SR. Drow get it naturally, as do monks. It is available in some items, like a scarab of protection. But it does not stop all damaging spells, most notably conjuration effects, and it is hard to get a high SR. Thus, it’s not something I recommend going to a lot of effort for. I mention it because it’s a nice bonus to have, and may be the little thing that tips the scales in favour one otherwise equal item purchase, or class choice. Another form of Damage prevention is temporary hit points. These should not be confused with hit gained form a temporary constitution boost, such as; through rage, or a spell like bear's endurance. In the case of the latter the hit points are deducted last, and thus removed from your current hit point total at end of the duration of the effect causing them. If your not careful this could kill you. However in the case of the former the temporary hit points are taken off first. That is to say they take first, and once they are gone you start subtracting from your actual hit point total. So when the duration for them were off, you either return to your normal hit point total, or if you are lower then that, you stay were you are. In effect they prevent the amount of damage from touching equal to the number of temporary hit points you have. This makes them one of the best forms of damage prevention around. But unfortunately their sources are rare. The thing to look for is an effect that specifically stats that it grants you temporary hit points, and not a constitution boost. (Although constitution boosts are not bad things, you just have to be careful with them.) Some spells that grant temporary hit points include; virtue which grants one, and aid which grants a d8 worth. Psionic vigor, found in the Expanded Psionic Handbook, will give five temporary hit points per power point used in it's manifestation. And lastly the Scarab of Aradros, from Weapons of Legacy, grants 10 temporary hit points with a 24 duration. The druid really shines at damage prevention. It has spells to boost its AC, like barkskin, and it also has resistance, which can prevent energy damage. But the best, and most effective way that it prevents damage is with its summoned animals. By miring an opponent with summoned animals it forces the enemy to attack them and not other party members. Clerics also have summon monster, but the druid’s summon nature list is superior in almost every way. Another class that can utilize this swamp-the-enemy technique is the psion with astral construct. While we’re on the subject of psions, forced share pain is an effective power for this kind of mitigation. Not only does it prevent damage dealt to you, but it inflicts it back on the enemy. Spells that increase your saves and AC are good choices if you’re planning on damage prevention. For the cleric and paladin this includes protection from evil, magic vestment, and shield of faith. For the wizard, shield and mage armour are both good choices. For miss chances I recommend invisibility, greater inivisibilty, blink, improved blink, displacement, and mirror image. The above-mentioned stoneskin and resistance will also grant DR and energy resistance respectively. Feat chosen with regards to spells should increase the duration of your spells. Extend Spell is extremely good for wizards, as at higher levels it can make some spells last all day. Quicken is another good one because it allows you fire up two buffs in a single round. An okay noncore feat is Persistant Spell. The 6 level increase to spell level quickly becomes prohibitive. It is costly at a minimum investment of three feats, and 6 turn undead attempts if you’re using Divine Metamagic. Unless your DM is allowing night sticks from Libris Mortis, or you have an unsually high Cha or truckloads of turn undead attempts, I would recommend against that route. For noncasters, feats like Dodge and Mobility will raise your AC, as well as Combat Expertise. In a pinch there is always fighting defensively and using cover bonuses. Rember that 5 or more ranks in Tumble grant a syngery bonus to fighting defensively. Also those bonuses stack, so you can fight defensively, use Combat Expertise, and declare a dodge target. This will signifigantly lower your to-hit, though. There are hosts of items too choose from. Bracers of armour raise your AC, and come without a check penalty or arcane spell failure. The same is true for rings of protection and amulets of natural armour. The amulet provides an enhancement bonus to natural armour, so it stacks with any you may already have, but not other enhancement bonus to natural armour. Your best bet is to get many bonuses of different types, like one armour bonus, a shield bonus, and then dodge, circumstance, protection, and natural armour. This is very expensive! As you get into higher levels, you’ll find that attack bonuses begin to outstrip your AC. I don’t recommend completely ignoring it, but just be aware that other methods of prevention will give you a greater return. Instead of investing 20,000gp in a suit of armour I’d look at maybe picking up a ring of invisibility. Cloaks of displacement/etherealness are expensive, but good. The cheaper way to get this is to ask the spell caster if they could cast some beneficial spell on your behalf. Some class esalso offer natural damage prevention. The most notable is the barbarian. However, the ninja also offers the ability to turn invisible for a short time. These abilities should not be considered lightly; they offer great benefits over a long period of time.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-08-07, 01:27 AM	General Thoughts on Base Classes Now that I’ve discussed damage mitigation in general, I’d like to address some of the classes. First I’d like to discuss bards, rangers, rogues, and warlocks. Bards and rangers have the cure spells on their lists, which means they can cast them and use wands without a problem. However, they don’t have any other higher level removal spells that clerics and druid have, like heal. They also have a lower hit die than the paladin and barbarian. Their light armour proficiencies mean they have a harder time pushing up their AC for prevention. While they can make good damage mitigation specialists at lower levels, they lose effectiveness at higher ones. They’re fun classes, but they make a poor choice as a damage mitigation specialist. Rogues and warlocks fall into that boat as well. They rely solely on items for their removal, and they have a d6 hit die. They are useful in other roles, so don’t let that discourage you from playing one. I just don’t recommend relying on one to be your damage mitigation specialist. I purposefully left paladins out, because unlike the ranger they have a d10 hit die. They also have heavy armour proficiency and lay on hands to boost their AC and remove some damage. With the right feats a paladin can make a good damage mitagtion specialist, but it isn’t as easy as a cleric or druid, whose natural abilities lend themselves to the cause. Another class that normally isn’t thought of in this role is the barbarian. Its hit die allows it to absord high amounts of damage. It has medium armour proficiency, which means that it can gets its AC decently high, but more importantly it has natural damage reduction -- the most cost-effective kind. And of course, there’s rage. Rage both increase your fighting power, and gives more hit points to absorb damage with. The knight is another good choice in this vein, with d12 HD, heavy armor proficiency, and the ability to call opponents down on it. The last two classes I’m going to mention are the crusader and the warblade from Tome of Battle. The crusader is good because of the d10 HD, heavy armour proficiency, and abilty to delay the effects of damage. This allows more time to have a form of removal used on him. But this delayed damage also boosts his attack, thus making use of the damge he is soaking up. Many of the Devoted Spirit maneuvers allow you to heal yourself by stirking your foe. Combined with bonuses to hit granted by the damage you have taken, it’s not a bad way to go. The warblade has medium armour like the barbarian, and a d12 HD which makes it worthy of mention. It can also recover its maneuvers as a swift action preceding an attack. When combined with Vital Recovery this can be a fairly potent form of damge removal, although for itself only. Ultimately, the best way to mitigate damage is to combine the three methods: high AC and saves with miss chances, someone who can remove damage, and someone else who can take lots of it. You may be able able to get through battles without in-combat healing, but only if your other methods of mitigation are strong. You need high hp and damage prevention to cover the lack of healing. The last thought I’ll leave you with is that healing is the simplest, most affordable, and most effective way to mitigate damage. While no method is foolproof, healing tends to work when other methods may fail Special Thanks to: UltimateReality, for her tireless job in editing, and Nephlite for his or her temporary hit points contribution.
metalmayhem80110 08-08-07, 03:43 AM	Ummm ok, it's nice and all, really. But why did you throw it together? Any player should know that healing isn't the only way to deal with taking damage. Nice rant though :P
DrMorganes 08-08-07, 11:28 AM	But given the large number of posts lately on why healers are completely unnecessary, it stands to reason that every player does NOT know these things. As far as I'm concerned, this post needs to be archived by every DM to give to new players. Much of it IS common sense, but what most folks generally fail to understand is that "common sense" is born of common experience. If one lacks the common experience, one will not have the "common sense". Deriding a new player for not having the "common sense" to implement one or more of these strategies is like deriding your grandmother for not having the "common sense" to back up her computer.
Prator_the_Legendary 08-08-07, 01:31 PM	TPK? I'm sure you've been told this before, but you should really try to publish this stuff. Honestly, I think you should compile this post and the other ones on these boards that are like it into a big book on DnD tactics. I'd buy it.
Nephlite 08-08-07, 02:20 PM	I'll add an addition for Damage Prevention: Temporary Hit Points Ands You. A lesser known way to prevent damage before hit is temporary hps. It is often confused by Bear's endurance or Barbarian's Rage. These do not give temporary hps, but instead additional hps temporary. A subtle distinct difference. Additional hps aer subtracted last (and last after possibly killing you), but temporary are lost first. The sources of temporary hps stack, but not from same source. So the difficulty is finding the different ways. Sources of Temp hp: Magic Sources: 1. Vigor from PHB: a cantrip that gives 1 temp hp. Not to confused with the healing Vigor spells in Complete Divine that heal you over time. 2. Aid: acts like bless (single target) and 1d8 temp hp too 3. False Life: 1hr/level makes this a reat buff but provides only 1d10 +x/level. So while it will be on, it only helps a little since personal. Class abilities: 1. Favored Soul's Alternate PHB 2 feature: When you heal someone you give temp hps as well. Psionics: 1. Vigor: Five temp hps per power point spent for 1 minute/level. Useful to protect one self, but personal only. This is not an exhaustive list but as I claimed they are difficult to find.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-10-07, 01:21 PM	I'll add an addition for Damage Prevention: Temporary Hit Points Ands You. A lesser known way to prevent damage before hit is temporary hps. It is often confused by Bear's endurance or Barbarian's Rage. These do not give temporary hps, but instead additional hps temporary. A subtle distinct difference. Additional hps aer subtracted last (and last after possibly killing you), but temporary are lost first. The sources of temporary hps stack, but not from same source. So the difficulty is finding the different ways. Sources of Temp hp: Magic Sources: 1. Vigor from PHB: a cantrip that gives 1 temp hp. Not to confused with the healing Vigor spells in Complete Divine that heal you over time. 2. Aid: acts like bless (single target) and 1d8 temp hp too 3. False Life: 1hr/level makes this a reat buff but provides only 1d10 +x/level. So while it will be on, it only helps a little since personal. Class abilities: 1. Favored Soul's Alternate PHB 2 feature: When you heal someone you give temp hps as well. Psionics: 1. Vigor: Five temp hps per power point spent for 1 minute/level. Useful to protect one self, but personal only. This is not an exhaustive list but as I claimed they are difficult to find. Thanks, I added this to the main piece in section 3.
archerpwr 08-10-07, 02:57 PM	TPK- I liked your healing article and I like this one too. They largely state the obvious, but are very well written good refresher courses. Props. Your writing is significantly better than most of the useless crap in Regdar's. I hope you keep making threads like these. // end praise PS: extend spell was ruled to not work on the vigor line, but you can persist mass lesser vigor. Empower is really cost effective on cures, but maximize is not.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-10-07, 03:12 PM	TPK- I liked your healing article and I like this one too. They largely state the obvious, but are very well written good refresher courses. Props. Your writing is significantly better than most of the useless crap in Regdar's. I hope you keep making threads like these. // end praise PS: extend spell was ruled to not work on the vigor line, but you can persist mass lesser vigor. Empower is really cost effective on cures, but maximize is not. Thanks, but the healing artical wasn't mine....that one belongs to 4winged angle.
archerpwr 08-10-07, 03:40 PM	Thanks, but the healing artical wasn't mine....that one belongs to 4winged angle. Oops. You have a very similar writing style then. *hangs head in shame for illiteracy*
Infernostrider 08-10-07, 04:21 PM	TPK? I'm sure you've been told this before, but you should really try to publish this stuff. Honestly, I think you should compile this post and the other ones on these boards that are like it into a big book on DnD tactics. I'd buy it. me too
OneWinged4ngel 08-26-07, 03:58 PM	I don't have the time to go over everything that's wrong with the article, but I'll give a snippet. Damage Prevention The third form of damage mitigation that I’m going to talk about is prevention. The basic premise of this is prevent the damage from ever landing in the first place. This is generally accomplished in three broad ways: high Acs and saves, miss chances, and damage reduction and resistance. See, this is part of why it's not a good guide. It leaves out some of the BEST ways to prevent damage from landing on you. It neglects to mention BATTLEFIELD CONTROL, such as, say, Web or Solid Fog, or movement that keeps you out of an enemy's range (like Phantom Mount), or debuffing enemies so that they can't deal damage effectively, or even the very basic premise of killing an enemy before he can hurt you, which obviously stops his damage outputs. That's a lot of uncovered ground, and he denies that these things are actually helpful in damage mitigation. For example, my level 5 psion doesn't like to die. How does he avoid it? Well, at low levels, he would cast Entangling Ectoplasm on an enemy, and use Skate to make sure he could keep knocking away at them while they couldn't use melee attacks due to their halved speed, and would have a -4 penalty to ranged attacks. Now, at level 5, he has a 28 (22 touch) AC when he feels the need to, and that basically means that once enemies are entangled and he's skating, they're going to have a very hard time hitting him. I also have him keep Precognition up to help his already good initiative rolls, to try and see that he goes first, and keep him hanging out next to the warforged with the tower shield. In addition, his main form of offense is an area of effect attack that stuns enemies (Energy Stun) and that will take them out of the fight for a turn, curbing their damage potential. If I expect to go up against a really threatening enemy and have a moment to buff, I'll use Vigor and Share Pain, shared with my psicrystal, to effectively double my hp and make sure I can survive a hit. I *also* purchased a Belt of Healing, so that I can heal 6d8 points of damage per day (or 4d8 as a burst heal). Altogether, this represents some effective damage mitigation, to the point that my "squishy" character is harder to kill than many Fighters. I combine a high AC, the ability to absorb damage with hp (situationally), debuffing, movement, and battlefield control to make a very difficult to kill target. If I didn't use the debuffs or battlefield control or movement, and, as TPK would have you think, just relied on my high AC, then I would die much more easily, as would my teammates (after all, all of them can benefit from the entangled or stunned enemies, while only I am protected by my own AC). Another faulty claim in there is that CR21 dragons are going to try to kill barbarians with 200 damage a round. That's just hooey. Dragons have a high intelligence. They have spells. They have things that make the barbarian go down *without* dealing damage. Furthermore, NO ONE on the side of "healing in combat is usually not the best choice, only situationally useful" has argued that healing is *not* useful, and that it *shouldn't* be used when it will save a party member. In fact, the opposite has been said ("It's situationally useful, but not a party role necessary enough that you need to make someone play a Cleric or Druid for it."). Therefore, it's really a whole big straw man argument. Oddly, TPK himself has said that you don't need to make someone play a Cleric or Druid in the dedicated healing role *himself*, yet argues tirelessly with those that make that assertion. A cleric or druid dedicated to healing is not necessary, and a party without one is not doomed Also... TPK- I liked your healing article The healing article is mine, and he has done nothing but shout and complain about how much he hated it and thought it was wrong. Also... me too And your characters would be more likely to die from acting stupid, as demonstrated by my analysis of one of TPK's "strategies" in his scenario he devised in a faulty attempt to counter my points. The things he suggested would KILL his teammate most of the time (against a level 1 orc) and occasionally cause a TPK. Basically, he suggested you run up to heal the fighter, and then the fighter would get up and attack, and that that somehow was a good decision. The actual result of this was an AoO from the orc which would *almost certainly* take the fighter out of the combat again and just leave the level 1 cleric with one less spell slot, and actually had a very good chance to outright kill the Fighter, and then leave the barbarian with another attack which could incapacitate the cleric. Basically, it's very poor tactics, and had a good chance of causing a TPK. The reference is here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13528605&postcount=229 It's also worth noting that right after I posted this, all he did was flame everyone who argued against him and *pretend I never posted it*, claiming that I gave no counterargument at all. :rolleyes:
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-26-07, 05:58 PM	As for Battle field control being absent: I left it out of my article on mitigation because it doesn't have much, if anything to do with mitigation of damage. Limiting your enemies options, including movement, or "battle field control" is in fact it's own field or role entirely. I'll do an article on that shortly.
WizO_Autumn 08-26-07, 07:05 PM	Please keep this thread about the topic at hand and not each other. Baiting is against the code of conduct.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-26-07, 07:33 PM	Please keep this thread about the topic at hand and not each other. Baiting is against the code of conduct. I think this thread has pretty much run its coarse..perhaps just locking it?
Dazzer 08-27-07, 01:29 AM	This is off-topic Originally Posted By: OneWinged4ngel I also have him keep Precognition up to help his already good initiative rolls (and use action points on them), Action Points can not be used on Initiative Rolls. It is one of the few rolls that action points (as per Eberron), cannot be used for. Additionally. In the games I have played in, and DM'd for, my personal experience is that without good damage control (via healing, resisting, soaking and essentially the above article). The party dies, quickly. I've seen Web's cast, I've seen Fogs, and all the other controlling spells cast. Then a quickened dispel magic later, they're gone, and damage is being dealt. Conversely, the creature had Blindsight (spell compendium) on, and ignores the fog completely. Conversely, the creature makes it's reflex save, and has alot of movement speed. I've seen many ways to avoid the usual tactics for battle-field control fail, and then the party had to fall back on plan B, taking the hits. I agree with the OP. A large CR 21 Dragon, who directly trades blow for blow with a Barbarian of equivalent level, will win. This is because the Dragon is designed for the entirety of the party (all 4 of them). He will dish out far more than 200 damage in my experience as well, but that's another matter. I enjoyed the article. Thanks!
OneWinged4ngel 08-27-07, 02:11 AM	Action Points can not be used on Initiative Rolls. It is one of the few rolls that action points (as per Eberron), cannot be used for. Huh, you're right, I made a mistake. Regardless, it's still a very tough defense, and the point still stands. Besides, I only used the action point for init thing once. >_> He still has 23-28 AC when it matters, he still locks up enemies so that they can't act with entangles and stuns, and he still gets a +5 to Initiative before adding any equipment.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-27-07, 02:17 AM	Actually gang Battlefield control is not a form of damage mitigation. No more then dealing damage yourself is. Sure it will prevent damage, if it prevents the enemy from attacking, but not in the same sense that a miss chance prevents damage from getting through. Anyways i wrote an article that takes a more in depth look at damage mitigation here (http://www.scribblit.com/users/test63/1415.html#cutid1) Check it out. P.S @ Dazzar: Your welcome.
OneWinged4ngel 08-27-07, 02:20 AM	Sure it will prevent damage, if it prevents the enemy from attacking, but not in the same sense that a miss chance prevents damage from getting through. Uhm... so preventing damage isn't the same as preventing damage. Got it. :rolleyes: Here's the thing. It's the exact same effect by different means. The effect is that less harm comes to your character (or those of your allies). Whether that comes from giving an enemy a -3 penalty to attack or buffing the ally's AC by 3 is actually totally irrelevant, whether you believe it or not.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-27-07, 02:38 AM	Uhm... so preventing damage isn't the same as preventing damage. Got it. :rolleyes: Here's the thing. It's the exact same effect by different means. The effect is that less harm comes to your character (or those of your allies). Whether that comes from giving an enemy a -3 penalty to attack or buffing the ally's AC by 3 is actually totally irrelevant, whether you believe it or not. Not quiet. Your thinking a little too general here. Applying a -3 penalty would be considered a debuff. Preventing your opponent from acting through a spell like hold person is control. And preventing damage through making the enemy attack miss is damage prevention. The distinctions are suddle, but they are there. The fields, or roles, are broken up into categories so that they are easier to discuss, and dissect. This is a common practice in logical discussion, science does this as well. You take similar things and then divide then into groups so they are more easily sorted. For example: you, a kangaroo, and Garfield are all mammals, none of you are in the same family. You being a human, the kangaroo being a marsupial, and Garfield is a cat. So while you are right that any action which prevents the enemy from damaging you, including killing them, freezing them, grappling them, etc, is technically 'preventing' or stopping them from dealing damage to you. Not all of them fit into the "damage prevention" category. In the same way that a Honda civic, and a Boeing 747 are both considered "vehicles", they are not in the "boat", or the same, category for the purpose of classification.
OneWinged4ngel 08-27-07, 02:46 AM	This is a common practice in logical discussion, science does this as well. You take similar things and then divide then into groups so they are more easily sorted. For example: you, a kangaroo, and Garfield are all mammals, none of you are in the same family. You being a human, the kangaroo being a marsupial, and Garfield is a cat. So while you are right that any action which prevents the enemy from damaging you, including killing them, freezing them, grappling them, etc, is technically 'preventing' or stopping them from dealing damage to you. Not all of them fit into the "damage prevention" category. In the same way that a Honda civic, and Boeing 747 are both considered "vehicles", they are not in the "boat", or the same, category for the purpose of classification.[/QUOTE] Yes, we know the difference between debuffs, buffs, healing and damage, and we know the meaning of categories. But *you* made up the category "damage mitigation" as a limited field including only a scant few of the things that actually mitigate damage outputs. Then claimed that other things didn't help you handle damage, flaming several people over the issue. Then turn around and say that they do. :rolleyes: The question is actually whether *you* understand the concept of categories. To use your own style of comparisons to illustrate the incredibly basic concept... all insects are bugs, but not all bugs are insects. There are different TYPES of categories. "Damage output" isn't the same sort of category as "Offense" in the same way that "debuff" isn't the same type of category as "damage prevention." Applying a -3 penalty would be considered a debuff. And boosting AC with a spell would be considered a buff. If this was actually a logical correction, instead of an arbitrary statement followed by a bunch of baiting, it would involve the same type of category as damage mitigation.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 08-27-07, 02:49 AM	Yes, we know the difference between debuffs, battlefield control, buffs, and dammage. But *you* made up the category "damage mitigation" as a limited field including only a few of the things that mitigate damage. Then claimed that other things didn't help you handle damage, flaming several people over the issue. Then turn around and say that they do. :rolleyes: This thread is not he place for our personal disagreements. Perhaps you could PM them to me. Thankx.