damage reduction 20/+6 [Archive] - Wizards Community

damage reduction 20/+6 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Poodle
10-25-06, 01:50 AM Damage reduction 20/+6 yea I don’t get it could some one explain what 20/+6 damage reduction is
Tempest Stormwind
10-25-06, 01:55 AM An outdated system of DR from 3.0, where DR was only ever bypassed by enhancement bonuses and, very very rarely, alchemical silver.

In 3.5, that'd probably be DR 10/Epic (it's definitely /Epic, but I'm not absolutely certain about the value).
runestar
10-25-06, 02:01 AM In 3.0, it means that the first 20 damage from a physical attack is automatically prevented unless the weapon dealing the damage has at least a +6 enhancement value.:)
X-Codes
10-25-06, 03:27 AM Damage reduction 20/+6 yea I don’t get it could some one explain what 20/+6 damage reduction is
The others have explained what it meant. Tell us where it is and we could probably give you the 3.5 version of it's DR.

TS could be right that it's 10/Epic, but I'm thinking it's probably 15/Epic.
Poodle
10-25-06, 05:16 AM Thanks all and if you would like to know were it is the epic level handbook paragon template
Draxo
10-25-06, 07:05 AM I personally preferred the enhancement bonus system.. it meant that dragon actually had some measure of damage reduction, and that you didnt have to play musical weapons in a fight.
Derren S.
10-25-06, 07:12 AM I personally preferred the enhancement bonus system.. it meant that dragon actually had some measure of damage reduction, and that you didnt have to play musical weapons in a fight.

I completly agree.
was_fired
10-25-06, 09:21 AM Eh, personally I perfer the new system over the old: You must be this magical to fight game which DR monsters got to play. Now DR does something without meaning that you are either completely useless as a fighter or that you can completely ignore it. That said different strokes for different folks. That and I have never seen my players golf bag different types of weapons, weapon materials, or weapon enchantments.

Fixed a fairly major wording error.
Zherog
10-25-06, 10:20 AM Thanks all and if you would like to know were it is the epic level handbook paragon template

According to the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/epic/monsters/PARAGON_CREATURE.html) it has 10/Epic.
KnaveofClubs
10-25-06, 12:16 PM Eh, personally I perfer to the system over the old: You must be this magical to fight game which DR monsters got to play. Now DR does something without meaning that you are either completely useless as a fighter or that you can completely ignore it. That said different strokes for different folks. That and I have never seen my players golf bag different types of weapons, weapon materials, or weapon enchantments.
Yeah I do hate that part, instead of everything either being silver or some degree of magic you have DR for magic, silver, cold iron, admanatine, slashing, piercing, blunt, good, evil, law, chaos, and more. At one point in our 4 person party my ranger had to carry at least a dagger or bundle of arrows of at least one of every type of DR. He was the main physical damage dealer. I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies. They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared.
Jackmojo
10-25-06, 12:25 PM Yeah I do hate that part, instead of everything either being silver or some degree of magic you have DR for magic, silver, cold iron, admanatine, slashing, piercing, blunt, good, evil, law, chaos, and more. At one point in our 4 person party my ranger had to carry at least a dagger or bundle of arrows of at least one of every type of DR. He was the main physical damage dealer. I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies. They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared.

I've seen somewhere a chart for counting the various +X magic weapon enhancements as types for the purpose of overcoming DR (ie +2 counts as silver or cold iron, +3 adamantine, etc...),unfortunately I forget where I saw it, but this sort of house rule might be right up your ally.

Jack
Cifer
10-25-06, 12:57 PM I vastly prefer the 3.5 system. It's a step away from the "hero or zero" system of the old version where you either had a certain enhancement bonus and could beat the monster to bloody rags or hadn't and hardly could scratch it. In the new version, you "need" adamantium (show me heavy fighter types that don't go for adamantium as soon as it is affordable!), silver (silversheen is relatively cheap) and cold iron (doubles a weapon's nonmagical nonmasterwork price. oooh, an extra 15 gp). That would be three weapons, which can very well be used to also cover the three damage types bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. Say, a silver warhammer, a greataxe forged from adamantium and a cold iron halberd or ranseur.
Rangers have it even easier - it's not exactly hard to carry an extra 30 arrows when needed.
The rest of the DRs can be overcome relatively easily when one knows what to expect with some spells.

They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared.
Now I would say that they have silversheen even now, but that doubtlessly must have been a hallucination.
NoldorForce
10-25-06, 12:59 PM @ Jackmojo: You're thinking of Monte Cook's chart. Available here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction). There was the additional stipulation that a weapon that acheived both conditions (bypassing DR in the 3.5 way and the 3.Monte alternate way) dealt +2 damage.
was_fired
10-25-06, 01:08 PM I hate to disagree with you knave mostly because my original post was horribly unclear thanks to a typo, but I do perfer the new system. In the days of 3.0 DR meant you either would either ignore it or be helpless because of it. The 3.0 Iron Golem had DR 50/+3 meaning you either had a +3 weapon as a fighter thus completely negating its DR or you couldn't do anything against it. Now golems are DR 15 / Adamantine meaning you either have an adamantine weapon or hurt it a lot less (maybe 1/2 damage for a good two-handed fighter) in the case of 3.5 you can at least fight it, this wasn't really true in 3.0. As of now the only 3.5 ability that still holds like this is incorporeal, and I do still have issues with that ability because of it.
Azdraugnor
10-25-06, 01:13 PM and cold iron (doubles a weapon's nonmagical nonmasterwork price. oooh, an extra 15 gp).

Well, it also adds 2000 gp once you enchant it >.>

Personally I prefer the 3.5 system. Yeah, you end up carrying around several weapons, but it's not really *that* severe - and you don't HAVE to have multiple weapons, any fighter can do damage through 10 DR. Eventually, it's more effective to just use your +5 Shocking Weapon of Speed or what have you than to bust out the +1 Byeshk Warhammer.
KnaveofClubs
10-25-06, 01:22 PM There are certain aspect from both 3.0 and 3.5 I like better so I integrate the rules. Think of it like 3.25. I like the older DR system much better because it is easier on your equipment load but I know that the newer system is much more efficient for giving creatures that extra edge and making it to where you can catagorize them like (we are fighting demons, lets get some holy/cold iron weapons before we go..or..This wizard has a fetish for creating golems, we should pack some admanatine equipment). And it can be quite fun to pick up a chair and bust it over a skeleton's head when you have no blunt weapons. I use the 3.5 DR though I like the 3.0 better.
mightymouse1107
10-25-06, 01:37 PM I think the preference for 3.0 or 3.5 DR systems depends on what one believes the game mechanics of DR are trying to achieve. If one believes that DR is simply trying to give monsters an extra ability that makes it more unique, analogous to any other abilities like breath weapons or gaze attacks, then one will prefer 3.5. If one instead believes that the function of DR is to control what parties of given levels and equipment are capable of dealing with, even theoretically, then one will prefer 3.0.

My own group prefers 3.0, and we use those DR rules, specifically because we like the all or nothing part of it. We want that iron golem wading through any number of low to mid level fighters. That doesn't make one opinion right or wrong, its just an aesthetic preference. If others like the 3.5 aesthetic in this matter, than more power to them.
LordHawkeye
10-25-06, 01:46 PM The problem with the 3.0 rules, if you don't happen to have the right enchantment on hand, you are 100% screwed at higher levels. You cannot put a dent in the monster and nothing you do can change that. Not to mention monks REALLY got screwed under this system.

They big selling point of 3.5 is they also toned down the numbers. So even if you don't have the right weapon for the job, you can still do enough to get some damage in. Thus damage reduction is still an obstacle but not an insurmountable one. And you don't need to carry that much. Align weapon is a low level spell that takes care of all the alignment ones. That just leaves silver, cold iron and adamantine (and an adamantine weapon wouldn't be a bad investment anyway for the sundering potential).
Archangel62
10-25-06, 01:56 PM Well, one idea that I've looked at houseruling is that DR X/Magic would have

/Magic (Weak) for +1 to +2
/Magic (Moderate) for +3
/Magic (Greater) for +4 to +5

Just a thought anyhow
Celestine_AutumnStar
10-25-06, 02:05 PM Thats actually not bad. A scale for magic. I would recommend just splitting it in two though. Magic (weak) and Magic (moderate) sine Epic can be translated Magic (strong). I would have +1-3 be weak and +4 & 5 be moderate.
Count Arioch the 28th
10-26-06, 03:35 PM I think any sort of non-mterial DR was irrelevant because the fighters will always have the cleric and wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on their stuff.

That's been the case since 3.0.
Cifer
10-26-06, 06:26 PM Well, it also adds 2000 gp once you enchant it >.>
Which is why you don't do it. Masterworking is just fine and later on you can mooch off a few greater Magic Weapon from your wiz-buddies when you are not working with your primary weapon.
The White Sorcerer
10-26-06, 06:44 PM I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies.
Actually, you wouldn't even need that silver dagger, since a magic weapon bypassed DR/silver.
Ronin_Nakuan
10-26-06, 07:18 PM well i'm curious about the magic part.. i was under the impression it had to be something like a +1 weapon or a spell for something like 15/+1

Damage reduction has always been a little confusing for me though, so how is magic affected by all of this?
Tempest Stormwind
10-26-06, 07:29 PM well i'm curious about the magic part.. i was under the impression it had to be something like a +1 weapon or a spell for something like 15/+1

Damage reduction has always been a little confusing for me though, so how is magic affected by all of this?
In 3rd edition, DR was based on enhancement bonus only, and behaved like this:

Nothing special
Silver
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6

Any of the later ones bypassed the earlier ones as well.

In 3.5, DR operates like this:

Magic (any magical enhancement bonus), Epic (+6 or higher enhancement)
Silver, Adamantine, Cold Iron
Good, Evil, Law, Chaos
Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing

Something with DR 5/Bludgeoning and Good reduces all physical damage he takes by 5, unless it comes from a Good, Bludgeoning weapon.

Magic damage is NEVER affected by DR, unless you listen to the Complete Psionic nerfs.
molten_dragon
10-26-06, 07:44 PM I like and dislike elements of both systems. I liked the scaling aspect in 3.0, however I did not like the fact that magic trumped special materials. All of mythology says that only silver can hurt werewolves, but in 3.0 all it took was a +1 weapon to get around it. I like the fact that that was changed in 3.5. However, it can get fairly ridiculous in 3.5 when you start tacking on several different types of DR. They were pretty good about not giving a base creature more than two things usually ( like a lich with DR/magic and blunt), but if you start adding templates things can get out of hand rather quickly.
crossp
10-26-06, 09:54 PM I always hated the fact that in 3.0 four million low-level fighters vs. an iron golem was a flawless victory for the iron golem. No damage what-so-ever. You could drop those *******s from space and they wouldn't flinch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Poodle 10-25-06, 01:50 AM	Damage reduction 20/+6 yea I don’t get it could some one explain what 20/+6 damage reduction is
Tempest Stormwind 10-25-06, 01:55 AM	An outdated system of DR from 3.0, where DR was only ever bypassed by enhancement bonuses and, very very rarely, alchemical silver. In 3.5, that'd probably be DR 10/Epic (it's definitely /Epic, but I'm not absolutely certain about the value).
runestar 10-25-06, 02:01 AM	In 3.0, it means that the first 20 damage from a physical attack is automatically prevented unless the weapon dealing the damage has at least a +6 enhancement value.:)
X-Codes 10-25-06, 03:27 AM	Damage reduction 20/+6 yea I don’t get it could some one explain what 20/+6 damage reduction is The others have explained what it meant. Tell us where it is and we could probably give you the 3.5 version of it's DR. TS could be right that it's 10/Epic, but I'm thinking it's probably 15/Epic.
Poodle 10-25-06, 05:16 AM	Thanks all and if you would like to know were it is the epic level handbook paragon template
Draxo 10-25-06, 07:05 AM	I personally preferred the enhancement bonus system.. it meant that dragon actually had some measure of damage reduction, and that you didnt have to play musical weapons in a fight.
Derren S. 10-25-06, 07:12 AM	I personally preferred the enhancement bonus system.. it meant that dragon actually had some measure of damage reduction, and that you didnt have to play musical weapons in a fight. I completly agree.
was_fired 10-25-06, 09:21 AM	Eh, personally I perfer the new system over the old: You must be this magical to fight game which DR monsters got to play. Now DR does something without meaning that you are either completely useless as a fighter or that you can completely ignore it. That said different strokes for different folks. That and I have never seen my players golf bag different types of weapons, weapon materials, or weapon enchantments. Fixed a fairly major wording error.
Zherog 10-25-06, 10:20 AM	Thanks all and if you would like to know were it is the epic level handbook paragon template According to the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/theraven_stephenh/epic/monsters/PARAGON_CREATURE.html) it has 10/Epic.
KnaveofClubs 10-25-06, 12:16 PM	Eh, personally I perfer to the system over the old: You must be this magical to fight game which DR monsters got to play. Now DR does something without meaning that you are either completely useless as a fighter or that you can completely ignore it. That said different strokes for different folks. That and I have never seen my players golf bag different types of weapons, weapon materials, or weapon enchantments. Yeah I do hate that part, instead of everything either being silver or some degree of magic you have DR for magic, silver, cold iron, admanatine, slashing, piercing, blunt, good, evil, law, chaos, and more. At one point in our 4 person party my ranger had to carry at least a dagger or bundle of arrows of at least one of every type of DR. He was the main physical damage dealer. I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies. They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared.
Jackmojo 10-25-06, 12:25 PM	Yeah I do hate that part, instead of everything either being silver or some degree of magic you have DR for magic, silver, cold iron, admanatine, slashing, piercing, blunt, good, evil, law, chaos, and more. At one point in our 4 person party my ranger had to carry at least a dagger or bundle of arrows of at least one of every type of DR. He was the main physical damage dealer. I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies. They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared. I've seen somewhere a chart for counting the various +X magic weapon enhancements as types for the purpose of overcoming DR (ie +2 counts as silver or cold iron, +3 adamantine, etc...),unfortunately I forget where I saw it, but this sort of house rule might be right up your ally. Jack
Cifer 10-25-06, 12:57 PM	I vastly prefer the 3.5 system. It's a step away from the "hero or zero" system of the old version where you either had a certain enhancement bonus and could beat the monster to bloody rags or hadn't and hardly could scratch it. In the new version, you "need" adamantium (show me heavy fighter types that don't go for adamantium as soon as it is affordable!), silver (silversheen is relatively cheap) and cold iron (doubles a weapon's nonmagical nonmasterwork price. oooh, an extra 15 gp). That would be three weapons, which can very well be used to also cover the three damage types bludgeoning/piercing/slashing. Say, a silver warhammer, a greataxe forged from adamantium and a cold iron halberd or ranseur. Rangers have it even easier - it's not exactly hard to carry an extra 30 arrows when needed. The rest of the DRs can be overcome relatively easily when one knows what to expect with some spells. They even had things such as pourable silver and greater magic weapon to help counter those DR if you came unprepared. Now I would say that they have silversheen even now, but that doubtlessly must have been a hallucination.
NoldorForce 10-25-06, 12:59 PM	@ Jackmojo: You're thinking of Monte Cook's chart. Available here (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?otherd20_damage_reduction). There was the additional stipulation that a weapon that acheived both conditions (bypassing DR in the 3.5 way and the 3.Monte alternate way) dealt +2 damage.
was_fired 10-25-06, 01:08 PM	I hate to disagree with you knave mostly because my original post was horribly unclear thanks to a typo, but I do perfer the new system. In the days of 3.0 DR meant you either would either ignore it or be helpless because of it. The 3.0 Iron Golem had DR 50/+3 meaning you either had a +3 weapon as a fighter thus completely negating its DR or you couldn't do anything against it. Now golems are DR 15 / Adamantine meaning you either have an adamantine weapon or hurt it a lot less (maybe 1/2 damage for a good two-handed fighter) in the case of 3.5 you can at least fight it, this wasn't really true in 3.0. As of now the only 3.5 ability that still holds like this is incorporeal, and I do still have issues with that ability because of it.
Azdraugnor 10-25-06, 01:13 PM	and cold iron (doubles a weapon's nonmagical nonmasterwork price. oooh, an extra 15 gp). Well, it also adds 2000 gp once you enchant it >.> Personally I prefer the 3.5 system. Yeah, you end up carrying around several weapons, but it's not really that severe - and you don't HAVE to have multiple weapons, any fighter can do damage through 10 DR. Eventually, it's more effective to just use your +5 Shocking Weapon of Speed or what have you than to bust out the +1 Byeshk Warhammer.
KnaveofClubs 10-25-06, 01:22 PM	There are certain aspect from both 3.0 and 3.5 I like better so I integrate the rules. Think of it like 3.25. I like the older DR system much better because it is easier on your equipment load but I know that the newer system is much more efficient for giving creatures that extra edge and making it to where you can catagorize them like (we are fighting demons, lets get some holy/cold iron weapons before we go..or..This wizard has a fetish for creating golems, we should pack some admanatine equipment). And it can be quite fun to pick up a chair and bust it over a skeleton's head when you have no blunt weapons. I use the 3.5 DR though I like the 3.0 better.
mightymouse1107 10-25-06, 01:37 PM	I think the preference for 3.0 or 3.5 DR systems depends on what one believes the game mechanics of DR are trying to achieve. If one believes that DR is simply trying to give monsters an extra ability that makes it more unique, analogous to any other abilities like breath weapons or gaze attacks, then one will prefer 3.5. If one instead believes that the function of DR is to control what parties of given levels and equipment are capable of dealing with, even theoretically, then one will prefer 3.0. My own group prefers 3.0, and we use those DR rules, specifically because we like the all or nothing part of it. We want that iron golem wading through any number of low to mid level fighters. That doesn't make one opinion right or wrong, its just an aesthetic preference. If others like the 3.5 aesthetic in this matter, than more power to them.
LordHawkeye 10-25-06, 01:46 PM	The problem with the 3.0 rules, if you don't happen to have the right enchantment on hand, you are 100% screwed at higher levels. You cannot put a dent in the monster and nothing you do can change that. Not to mention monks REALLY got screwed under this system. They big selling point of 3.5 is they also toned down the numbers. So even if you don't have the right weapon for the job, you can still do enough to get some damage in. Thus damage reduction is still an obstacle but not an insurmountable one. And you don't need to carry that much. Align weapon is a low level spell that takes care of all the alignment ones. That just leaves silver, cold iron and adamantine (and an adamantine weapon wouldn't be a bad investment anyway for the sundering potential).
Archangel62 10-25-06, 01:56 PM	Well, one idea that I've looked at houseruling is that DR X/Magic would have /Magic (Weak) for +1 to +2 /Magic (Moderate) for +3 /Magic (Greater) for +4 to +5 Just a thought anyhow
Celestine_AutumnStar 10-25-06, 02:05 PM	Thats actually not bad. A scale for magic. I would recommend just splitting it in two though. Magic (weak) and Magic (moderate) sine Epic can be translated Magic (strong). I would have +1-3 be weak and +4 & 5 be moderate.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-26-06, 03:35 PM	I think any sort of non-mterial DR was irrelevant because the fighters will always have the cleric and wizard cast Greater Magic Weapon on their stuff. That's been the case since 3.0.
Cifer 10-26-06, 06:26 PM	Well, it also adds 2000 gp once you enchant it >.> Which is why you don't do it. Masterworking is just fine and later on you can mooch off a few greater Magic Weapon from your wiz-buddies when you are not working with your primary weapon.
The White Sorcerer 10-26-06, 06:44 PM	I quite enjoyed the good ol' days when you could carry a silver dagger and a +3 Longsword and be able to take most enemies. Actually, you wouldn't even need that silver dagger, since a magic weapon bypassed DR/silver.
Ronin_Nakuan 10-26-06, 07:18 PM	well i'm curious about the magic part.. i was under the impression it had to be something like a +1 weapon or a spell for something like 15/+1 Damage reduction has always been a little confusing for me though, so how is magic affected by all of this?
Tempest Stormwind 10-26-06, 07:29 PM	well i'm curious about the magic part.. i was under the impression it had to be something like a +1 weapon or a spell for something like 15/+1 Damage reduction has always been a little confusing for me though, so how is magic affected by all of this? In 3rd edition, DR was based on enhancement bonus only, and behaved like this: Nothing special Silver +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 Any of the later ones bypassed the earlier ones as well. In 3.5, DR operates like this: Magic (any magical enhancement bonus), Epic (+6 or higher enhancement) Silver, Adamantine, Cold Iron Good, Evil, Law, Chaos Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing Something with DR 5/Bludgeoning and Good reduces all physical damage he takes by 5, unless it comes from a Good, Bludgeoning weapon. Magic damage is NEVER affected by DR, unless you listen to the Complete Psionic nerfs.
molten_dragon 10-26-06, 07:44 PM	I like and dislike elements of both systems. I liked the scaling aspect in 3.0, however I did not like the fact that magic trumped special materials. All of mythology says that only silver can hurt werewolves, but in 3.0 all it took was a +1 weapon to get around it. I like the fact that that was changed in 3.5. However, it can get fairly ridiculous in 3.5 when you start tacking on several different types of DR. They were pretty good about not giving a base creature more than two things usually ( like a lich with DR/magic and blunt), but if you start adding templates things can get out of hand rather quickly.
crossp 10-26-06, 09:54 PM	I always hated the fact that in 3.0 four million low-level fighters vs. an iron golem was a flawless victory for the iron golem. No damage what-so-ever. You could drop those *******s from space and they wouldn't flinch.