Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TinManFan 08-16-05, 12:25 AM	Ok, here's the problem. A friend of mine joined a game I'm in as a player. I'm playin Murphy, the poetry spouting Bard with a big hammer and a heart of... well, let's just say not gold. (Quite NE actually). Well, we picked up a Barb when my friend joined in. Trouble is, he's going the Frenzied Bezerker route. Our party is working for a high falutin NPC so we're organized through him. We have a NE Ranger 7/Poison using PrC 1, my Ftr1/ Bard7, Cleric 4/ Ftr 4 of Shar, a Spellthief 8, and the Barb/P Warrior/ FB. Now as it is, I had to burn a spell known at 2nd lvl just for Calm Emotions cause i have the AC and Hitpoints that would make me ooey gooey goodness in one full attack form that guy (Metagaming I know, but I wanna keep this guy, I like him). However, one attack and my Bard's gonna be royally ticked. So what I asking is for better ways to deal with this. I don't wanna Coup him in his sleep (I just don't like doing that to my friends' characters), so should I talk with the guy IC, talk to the NPC guy for some Spell DC boosters or just hope his Extra Will Save when Raging/ Frenzying butt rolls low alot?
WizardlyFriend 08-16-05, 12:33 AM	it's funny because honestly you could probably coup de grace him, have him wake up (make the fort check) go into a frenzy and kill your whole party and then collapse at -200 HP.
TinManFan 08-16-05, 12:35 AM	Nah, I got a d12 x4 weapon. He ain't wakin up. But don't wanna do that. The guy is my friend (Not to mention the DM on thursdays and I like that char even more :D )
ShadowDragon8685 08-16-05, 12:43 AM	Evil characters deserve any and every death possible. Sooo... You're boned. Enjoy the Deathless Rage. :)
WizardlyFriend 08-16-05, 12:57 AM	Nah, I got a d12 x4 weapon. He ain't wakin up. But don't wanna do that. The guy is my friend (Not to mention the DM on thursdays and I like that char even more :D ) well, let's see if you do average damage then that's 26 damage, meaning a fort save of 36. he should have a fort save of 9 + con bonus (which is hopefully atleast +4). he needs a con bonus of +6 to get by the average damage or he dies automatically.
Orcboss 08-16-05, 12:20 PM	Could you get a wand of Calm Emotions instead?
Salla 08-16-05, 12:53 PM	Speaking as a DM, this is why I banned the Frenzied Berserker. I consider teamwork to be very important, and a class where you can be forced to slap your own teammates around just can't be good to have around. Barring dealing with him in a variety of unpleasant ways (aka inter-party conflict), I highly recommend *everybody* start carrying a lot of potions of Invisibility ... when it looks like he's about to go completely freakin' apeslag on your party, everybody drink up and then *leave*. Not 'walk away and stay hidden until he's calmed down', I mean have the party make a plan to redenzvous afterwards and just abandon the jerk. If your friend complains, just look him square in the eye and say, "Give me one good reason why I would hang around with someone who is an uncontrollable psychopath who has a very high possibility of killing me without even THINKING about it? It won't even be anything you control. We're all covering our own butts."
TinManFan 08-16-05, 01:06 PM	The wand is nice, but it's DC is lower than if I cast it (Have a beefy 18 Cha). A problem with the potions is that we're poor. Working for 50gp a week and fighting things with no treasure is annoying. As for leaving him, I think we might have to look at that option. The only thing stopping us from doing that right now is that he just picked up his first 2 lvls in the PrC last session (We got a LOT of exp) and we haven't seen him attack anything with a pulse. The only reason we "know" is the player's OOC comments of "Yeah, you guys better watch out, I don't stop attacking anymore".
bitnine 08-16-05, 01:17 PM	Get him a weapon with the merciful enchantment, and have him leave it on. If you come up to a situation where the risk is worth it or the party is prepared, he can deactivate it. Most importantly, if he accidentally flies into a rage, he won't end up killing.
DarknessEternal 08-16-05, 04:19 PM	Don't let him into your group. Would you hang out with someone who shot real bullets at you every time you saw him? That's what you're doing by hanging out with a Frenzied Berserker. Unless you're some kind of masochist or uselessly insane, you would never voluntarily be in the presence of a Frenzied Berserker.
Salla 08-16-05, 04:29 PM	Don't let him into your group. Would you hang out with someone who shot real bullets at you every time you saw him? That's what you're doing by hanging out with a Frenzied Berserker. Unless you're some kind of masochist or uselessly insane, you would never voluntarily be in the presence of a Frenzied Berserker. Well said. I never understood why people would make a character that nobody would want to hang around with, much less trust their lives to. The Merciful enhancement is another good option, though, if you're stuck with him.
allenchan 08-16-05, 07:22 PM	You're playing an Evil campaign. you get what you deserve, enjoy the TPK. (On a side note, there are plenty of ways to avoid having FB's attack their allies, but they require some amount of intra-party synergy or being of Good alignment.) Edit: Another option is to simply make him take a long walk every morning and hurt himself slightly so he frenzies, using it up for the day. AFter all, most people take FB for the supreme power attack, not frenzy.
Xaktsaroth 08-16-05, 08:39 PM	You're playing an Evil campaign. you get what you deserve, enjoy the TPK. (On a side note, there are plenty of ways to avoid having FB's attack their allies, but they require some amount of intra-party synergy or being of Good alignment.) Edit: Another option is to simply make him take a long walk every morning and hurt himself slightly so he frenzies, using it up for the day. AFter all, most people take FB for the supreme power attack, not frenzy. What exactly stops the FB from saying he's switching over to subdual attacks if he goes off on the party, all the damage would be subdual and he'd get -4 to his attacks.
allenchan 08-16-05, 08:47 PM	What exactly stops the FB from saying he's switching over to subdual attacks if he goes off on the party, all the damage would be subdual and he'd get -4 to his attacks. "must attack those she percieves as foes to the best of her ability... regardless of friendship, innocence, or health." Most people would argue that doing subdual and the -4 is in no way to the best of her ability. Though, one might be able to argue power attacking at full would be even though you take negatives to hit, though the danger there far outweighs the risk.
Duration_10_Rounds 08-16-05, 08:48 PM	What exactly stops the FB from saying he's switching over to subdual attacks if he goes off on the party, all the damage would be subdual and he'd get -4 to his attacks. Becuase knowingly switching to NERF weponry if you attack the party is not being frenzied.... if your frinzied enough to attack them for just being there your frenzied enough to not question your predicamant, weigh up the pros and cons of fists over the 6ft peice of steal in your hands, decide if you like them enough to just smash them into a coma rather than kill them.... etc, etc. As a DM i wouldn't accept that, while some one was suposedly raging... but then i wouldnt allow that POS class in my game.
Andrew_980 08-17-05, 12:21 AM	OOC tell him it's not going to work before he does it IC tell him after the first frenzy that he is on his own (and OOC newPC time) Another vote for BAN THE FB
DarknessEternal 08-17-05, 01:26 AM	Get him a weapon with the merciful enchantment, and have him leave it on. If you come up to a situation where the risk is worth it or the party is prepared, he can deactivate it. Most importantly, if he accidentally flies into a rage, he won't end up killing. Merciful is not a property that can be turned off. The weapon does non-lethal damage at all times. It can't be shut off, you can't even take -4 to do lethal damage.
Thorak 08-17-05, 01:53 AM	Merciful is not a property that can be turned off. The weapon does non-lethal damage at all times. It can't be shut off, you can't even take -4 to do lethal damage. From the SRD: "Merciful: The weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage, and all damage it deals is nonlethal damage. On command, the weapon suppresses this ability until commanded to resume it. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the merciful effect upon their ammunition." Reading. It's whats for dinner. If I had a PC FB, however, who tried to switch his weapon to NERF mode whenever he lost control, and turning it lethal against enemies, I'd take control of the character when he frenzies. That's showing some concern for who you attack. That's not how to play an FB. Same for choosing to power attack for all your BAB. If you don't do it against enemies because you know you'll miss, you won't be doing it against your friends either. No changing tactics just because they're your friends. That's the price. Did you guys miss that Calm Emotions has a save, too? It might work some of the time. But if he gets lucky, it's still smushy time. I wholeheartedly agree with the stance of abandoning the character. He's a ravening psycho. He gets so worked up he'll try and kill his friends just because he wants to see innards. Nobody would take that risk unless they were forced into it. The one exception I can think of is a Red Wizard, whose Thayan Knight companion is taking levels as an FB. And only because Thayan Knights auto-fail Will saves against Red Wizards. Meaning things like Calm Emotions can't be resisted. If you don't have some form of reliable control against the FB, don't risk it. No sane person would.
ShadowDragon8685 08-17-05, 01:58 AM	Using the command word to turn off Merciful is an inteligent action, something an FB is equally incapable of. Nobody should have an FB. Even a RWoT would be insane to do it, as the berzerker probably has a higher Initiative, and could well splashy him in one shot. WotC, you've given us some stinkers over the years with the good stuff. The big, steamy, mushy piles that are the biggest are the Hulking Hurler and the Frenzied Berzerker, right up there with Sudden Quicken and Sudden Maximize. (Especially in conjunction.)
a_psh 08-17-05, 02:56 AM	Also, merciful adds 1d6 extra damage. So using a merciful weapon to do nonlethal damage is actually *more* efficient than using it to do lethal damage. It's all a question of whether, technically, FB is supposed to be trying to defeat people (by downing them) or kill them (by killing them). Up to the DM. If it's the former, the merciful trick is perfect. Either way, of course, FB sucks. A class that is balanced because it shafts your allies is not a well-balanced class.
Thorak 08-17-05, 07:57 AM	Also, merciful adds 1d6 extra damage. So using a merciful weapon to do nonlethal damage is actually *more* efficient than using it to do lethal damage. It's all a question of whether, technically, FB is supposed to be trying to defeat people (by downing them) or kill them (by killing them). Up to the DM. If it's the former, the merciful trick is perfect. My point was that if he runs around nailing his enemies Mercifully all the time, I wouldn't force him to turn it off in a Frenzy. If he normally suppresses it, though, because he'd rather kill the enemy, then there's no way he's going to turn it on when he aims it at the party. Either way, of course, FB sucks. A class that is balanced because it shafts your allies is not a well-balanced class. It doesn't suck. It's absolutely great for enemies. Who says every class has to be ideal for a PC? The books also suggest that PCs not be Evil, yet there's PrCs like the Assassin in the DMG. Not necessarily because they're encouraging PC Assassins, but because pitting the party against an Assassin can make things interesting.
EvilDuck 08-17-05, 08:40 AM	Pssh, you guys just don't know how to make berserkers. Iron Will and Cumbrous Will will provide a +8 to Will saves alone. If you want to go the CHA route and your DM allows UA and UE, take two levels of Paladin of Slaughter for divine grace, then go into Runescarred Berserker and start pumping your CHA for a bonus to saves and casting ability. Cloaks of resistance will be a boon, as will certain spells I can't think of right now. Alternatively, you can just do what I did and cheat on every single damn roll to get out of frenzy.:D In any event, make sure that each party member has some sort of contingency plan to get away. The mage can teleport and the rogue can go invisible and hide, leaving the cleric to restrain the FB with whatever cleric-y goodness he has. FBs can be a real asset to a party, as they'll rip anything you come across to bite-size shreds, but you can't just throw one in willy-nilly.
TinManFan 08-17-05, 12:44 PM	Well, like I said, lack of funds precludes us from getting anything that nasty. Our NPC boss gets lippy when we ask for 3 CMW potions, nevermind all that stuff. As for the other stuff, Red Wizard isn't an option for my Bard, so Thayan Knight will just give him a magical tatt to hurt us with more. (Altho we are right next to Thay in our game) Merciful? Doubtful any of our characters will ask for that on a weapon. Pretty much hopin tonight he pisses off the ranger and gets him to attack him while I stand on the sidelines giving them +1 to those rolls. (+2 of I level! :D ) Thanks for the suggestions and keep 'em comin.
a_psh 08-17-05, 03:52 PM	It doesn't suck. It's absolutely great for enemies. Who says every class has to be ideal for a PC? The books also suggest that PCs not be Evil, yet there's PrCs like the Assassin in the DMG. Not necessarily because they're encouraging PC Assassins, but because pitting the party against an Assassin can make things interesting. No, no, no it does, in fact, *SUCK*! Terribly. Royally. Miserably. Just like anything that's exceedingly overpowered or game-breaking *SUCKS*. Mechanically, it's blatantly unbalanced. The rage ability is far greater than a barbarian's, you can't die from damage while raging, and you can power attack for eleventy billion points of damage. Say what you will about hitting him with save-or-die spells or whatever, but an NPC with the FB class can basically annihilate any PC that can't use magic or similar abilities to disable it, as it hits ridiculously hard and CAN'T DIE. Put this on an NPC and compare it to a fighter or barbarian. Are they really encounters of equivalent difficulty? The assassin is balanced. It's a reasonable class with cool and reasonable abilities. So is the Blackguard, which requires you to be evil-evil-evil and consort with fiends but doesn't break the game mechanically. The Frenzied Berserker is crap. Putting the label "For NPCs" on a class doesn't suddenly allow it to be gratuitously broken.
Citizen Fry 08-17-05, 04:07 PM	The one exception I can think of is a Red Wizard, whose Thayan Knight companion is taking levels as an FB. And only because Thayan Knights auto-fail Will saves against Red Wizards. Meaning things like Calm Emotions can't be resisted. If you don't have some form of reliable control against the FB, don't risk it. No sane person would. That's funny, I'll have to remember that one...
Thorak 08-17-05, 05:28 PM	Pssh, you guys just don't know how to make berserkers. Iron Will and Cumbrous Will will provide a +8 to Will saves alone. If you want to go the CHA route and your DM allows UA and UE, take two levels of Paladin of Slaughter for divine grace, then go into Runescarred Berserker and start pumping your CHA for a bonus to saves and casting ability. Cloaks of resistance will be a boon, as will certain spells I can't think of right now. Alternatively, you can just do what I did and cheat on every single damn roll to get out of frenzy.:D In any event, make sure that each party member has some sort of contingency plan to get away. The mage can teleport and the rogue can go invisible and hide, leaving the cleric to restrain the FB with whatever cleric-y goodness he has. FBs can be a real asset to a party, as they'll rip anything you come across to bite-size shreds, but you can't just throw one in willy-nilly. the FB's Will save is nearly meaningless. If it's low, he's gonna go nuts all the time, but he's easy to magically control. But will slaughter the party if he rolls a 20 on the save. If it's awesome, then he'll hardly ever go nuts. But when he inevitably rolls a 1, he almost certainly is going to be able to resist those spells which could calm him down, and he'll slaughter the party. Either way, it's close to a 1 in 20 chance of him obliterating a friend every time he takes damage. It could be because he stubbed a toe or stepped on a trap. I can see it now. "I do believe that I'll just open the doo-*THUNK* YAAARGH!! Urtok KILL stupid Fighter who not open door first!"
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-17-05, 08:21 PM	Its funny how this guy is trying not to play Chaotic Stupid Evil and everyone's still ripping him for playing evil. :rolleyes: That said, the FB will eventually kill you unless you have a damn good system in place for when he goes nuts. Get away from him, trip him, hold him do anything you can to put him down when he does.
Thorak 08-17-05, 11:29 PM	Its funny how this guy is trying not to play Chaotic Stupid Evil and everyone's still ripping him for playing evil. :rolleyes: That said, the FB will eventually kill you unless you have a damn good system in place for when he goes nuts. Get away from him, trip him, hold him do anything you can to put him down when he does. Running away works, assuming you've got the movement rate to outpace him. But I find that distasteful; you shouldn't have to flee your allies. Tripping won't do much good. You can attack from prone, you just take a -4 to hit. If it were my FB, I'd just kneecap you from where I lay. Or, alternatively, if you tripped and then moved away, stand up and biff my battleaxe at you. Or something. If you're not doing your damndest to kill the party when you fail that Will save, you're not playing the character properly.
Vaalingrade Ashland 08-17-05, 11:34 PM	Or, alternatively, if you tripped and then moved away, stand up and biff my battleaxe at you. Or something. I've got a whip. And that extra move action you lose matters to me.
TinManFan 08-18-05, 12:15 AM	Yeah, I got the whip dagger on my guy w/ imp disarm, but beating an opposed str check against a FB just ain't workin with my Middle of the Road stat guy (11, 11, 15, 14, 10, 18) so yeah, thinkin the spell route is all I got.
Thorak 08-18-05, 01:00 AM	I've got a whip. And that extra move action you lose matters to me. Like TinManFan suggested, you're going to be hard pressed to beat an FB's opposed Strength check, even if you've got Improved Trip. Even if they weren't raging as well, a Frenzied FB has a +6 to Strength, minimum. If they're raging, they get a bigger boost than you get from Improved Trip. And I suspect, if they're the melee guy, they're the one with the higher base Strength to begin with. Again, there are ways around it. I just wouldn't want to risk it with anything but a sure thing. It's like playing russian roulette with your characters; it's not an intelligent thing to do.
Lawless 08-18-05, 04:22 PM	We had the same problem a while ago. Outilukes Resilient Sphere, once he's done makes squishy stains of the enemy put him in one or two until he chills. Once our party threw a rock at our FB (dwarf Ftr/Bbn/FB), while he was surrounded by 3 Frost giants and two trolls, clocked him in the head 1d4 and watched him make meat puppets from afar.
Otto the Bugbear 08-18-05, 06:59 PM	As I mentioned in another FB thread, there is another problem besides the will save conundrum. Q: How do you know he's going to attack his party? A: You don't until he clocks a friend. When he does hit an ally, at the end of a battle, there runs the chance of that friend being dead before the party can do anything about it. Now ask yourself, how much of your daily resources are you going to save just to deal with the FB? It'll likely be more than one person doing it too, in case the guy he takes down was supposed to be the one to get that FB under control. Or do you use these resources up at the end of every battle (in which he frenzies), in case he fails that save? Cheers Otto :)