Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DraytonThain 02-05-05, 11:42 PM	anyone have suggestions on how to take down a powerful lich? say...a NEARLY epic lich? where should we look for his phallactary(spelling?)?? yes, this is the same lich from my killing another player character thread. no, i dont wish to list out all of our characters and levels and abiilities...sorry. just wondering if anyone has any general suggestions about handling the dreaded lich and KEEPING him dead...err...UNundeaded?? :) thanks for yer time.
Elven Doritos 02-06-05, 12:29 AM	"As for the actual combat, it depends on the individual lich. I'd rather not go there. As for the phylactery, destroy everything.... Minion's weapons get sundered, break open holy symbols, break shrines and look inside. Go so far as to burn the tower to the ground afterwards. The thing about the phylactery is that it could be any relatively small object, and that it could be hidden anywhere in the lich's lair. Huge loss in wealth? Maybe. Necessary? Unless you can pinpoint the lich's phylactery, probably." -Draven Devier, epic elven ranger
DraytonThain 02-06-05, 12:39 AM	as for the actual combat...i would rather not go there either....yipe! :)
The Philosopher King 02-06-05, 06:45 AM	Firstly, I shall second Elven Doritos' suggestion that you smash everything into kibble. You want to know why? Because a lich at very high level can, apparently, have multiple phylacteries. At least, a demi-lich can. This fact almost resulted in a lynching of our DM when we discovered that the BBEG of our campaign may, in fact, still exist - despite our having taken down the plane we were on as a result of the battle. (We have a trigger happy sorceress) As to the combat itself, melee is a good option, I think, especially if you can back the lich into a corner - AoOs for spells are great when you'e on the giving end. Anti-magic and copious amounts of Pelorian clerics might work too. Or, use a trick my paladin didn't get a chance to use if you have one: grapple and lay on hands - positive energy-a-go-go.
Darastin 02-06-05, 09:54 AM	Why grapple? You can Lay on Hands as a touch attack :) Heal or mass heal are good ways to deal with the lich and its undead minions (if any). Legend lore should give you some clues about the phylactery's whereabouts. A near-epic character, lich or not, is surely legendary enough for the spell to work. The phylactery itself is a magic item, so examine (and perhaps identify) anything magical. Purge the items, heck, the whole area, with (greater) dispel magic beforehand to get rid of Nystuls magical aura, nondetection and the like. But I'd not expect the lich to be stupid enough to keep his phylactery with him; it's probably hidden in a safe place far, far away. Just my two €-cents; Darastin
DraytonThain 02-06-05, 12:14 PM	and i will take yer two-cents worth...thanks ya very much! :)
fallabel 02-06-05, 12:16 PM	Also, you can throw flasks of holy water as ranged touch weapons, and they do damage to undead creatures. (You don't need any kind of weapon proficiency to do this.) So, stock up on those first.
Kulthos 02-06-05, 03:46 PM	Cast silence on a strong fighter and have him grapple. It's fun.
Loren Pechtel 02-06-05, 11:31 PM	Cast silence on a strong fighter and have him grapple. It's fun. And he won't have a few bits of nastiness prepared silent?
Elven Doritos 02-06-05, 11:38 PM	Yeah, watch out for Power Word, Kill. It has no saving throw, no somatics, and a near-epic would be smart enough (if he knew you were coming, which, with his good divinations and informants, he will) to have enought of them to take out a party.
Kulthos 02-07-05, 02:08 AM	And he won't have a few bits of nastiness prepared silent? That is why you grapple. This isn't 100%, but it does cut down his options a lot.
ShadowDragon8685 02-07-05, 02:27 AM	Okay. Step 1: Smash every single object in the lich's domain to bits. All the low-level monster's objects, especially any holy symbols, everything. Absoloutly everything, down to the last gold piece. Step 2: Raze the tower to the ground with magic, burn it's ashes thrice for good measure, then sift the ash with Invisible Servants to find any intact objects that may remain. Smash them. Step 3: Anhilliate the plane of existance the tower was on. You may think that this step makes step 1 and step two redundant; it does not. You do not know what may have a Contengincy spell set to get it out of there in the event of planar destruction. Step 4: Repeat as nessessary.
Elven Doritos 02-07-05, 10:20 PM	Okay. Step 1: Step 3: Anhilliate the plane of existance the tower was on. You may think that this step makes step 1 and step two redundant; it does not. You do not know what may have a Contengincy spell set to get it out of there in the event of planar destruction. Not a good idea if the lich is hanging out on a plane with innocent unaware people. Not a good idea at all. Espicially if it's the Material Plane. Better idea, albeit more risky, would be to find yourself a sphere of annihlation and run it over the area with a talisman of the sphere. And make sure no minions get away.
Ropeltaja 02-08-05, 03:43 AM	Not a good idea if the lich is hanging out on a plane with innocent unaware people. Not a good idea at all. Espicially if it's the Material Plane. Bah!
krichaiushii 02-08-05, 10:06 AM	Deities may take offense at persons who take out entire planes of existence - even if for a good reason (like lich-slaying). The wrath of a pantheon is terrible to behold. At least it should be! Hopefully, the lich hasn't made a phylactery of a distant kingdom's crown or signet ring - the kingdom might take offense. Or an item of great historical value. Or found some way to make a phylactery out of a living being - innocent children work well for this (nice moral dilemma), especially if they are of royal blood. A monument or statue in the center of a town, city, or royal/imperial museum. Again, the law comes down on you. Or hidden it in some hard to reach location. Why would the players not detect for magic items then use a commune spell to determine which, if any, of them are phylacteries?
fallabel 02-08-05, 11:29 AM	Strictly speaking, if there's even one innocent person on the plane that you'd be destroying, the destruction of that plane would be considered an evil act. Not sure how much that matters to you, but it's something to think about.
preacher of nothing 02-08-05, 04:32 PM	I'm a bit intrigued here....how DID your sorceress actually destroy an entire plane? Without any intervention from other more powerful mortals, or from Gods? And how come there weren't any repercussions? ~preacher~
Kulthos 02-08-05, 10:44 PM	As long as you are "Destroying Planes" why not just go back in time when the Lich was alive and first level and kill them easily? No mess no fuss.
Kulthos 02-09-05, 12:56 AM	I'm a bit intrigued here....how DID your sorceress actually destroy an entire plane? ~preacher~ One fireball from the inside could set off the fuel, or a lightning bold could short out the electronics and make it crash. Anything that penetrates the plane's hull would depressurize it, putting everyone at risk of suffocation. I think any sorceress above level 5 should be able to knock down a 747 without much trouble. As for how the Lich got a plane into a medieval-themed game in the first place, this was likely not the worst of it's crimes.
DraytonThain 02-09-05, 01:09 AM	go back in time ehh..?? now where did i put that flux capacitor? i think my halfling better take a couple ranks in skateboarding before such an attempt.
preacher of nothing 02-09-05, 01:33 AM	:rofl: @ Kulthos Something tells me the philosopher king meant plane as in plane of existence ~preacher~
Maniacal_Cackle 02-09-05, 01:34 AM	Hmmmm... Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but... If you can't get a hold of the phylactery (tons of divination magic will hopefully find it, but if not...) You could always create a prison for the lich. Do the equivalent of putting cement blocks on his feet, but do it to his entire body. Then find an isolated place where magic does not work and put him there. As an example: Develop a special cage that will stop anything within from casting spells. Then imprision the cage, and voila! Lich that is still plenty alive, but not particularly effective. Note, however, that this tactic would work with varying degress of success based on what your DM is like. Disclaimer: It's late (well... for a school night :P) and I'm sick. Probably won't recall any of this in the morning, and if I read it, will think a madman wrote it or something. :D
Deep Black 02-09-05, 02:25 AM	On the note of imprisoning, we once met a powerful wizard with a lich as his staff. Basicaly, after breaking him apart, the wizard held together and fused his legbones with the skull on the top, and one arm underneath he could use. The wizard made him cast spells and such for him, and he always complained severely about his plight. We ended up killing the wizard, and contrary to the pleading of the skull, keep the staff.
MJ the Prophet 02-09-05, 07:29 AM	As for finding the phylactery, some of the things mentioned probably won't take place. Contrary to popular opinion, liches often keep their phylactery nearby. If I had an item that contained my life force, and which if destroyed ends my existence, I would not put it in the middle of town or on the king's head as a crown. I would want to know exactly where it is, within easy access, at all times. Especially if I was a little bit paranoid/insane, which again most liches are. Granted, this all depends on how mean your DM is. No DM in the world is going to make the phylactery be a big, showy amulet with huge gem which the lich wears around his neck; that's just too easy. But the more crazy options, which would require such things as planar annihalation? Unless your DM has a reputation for being especially sadistic, you should have access to enough divination magic to find the darn thing, allowing you to keep all the pretty treasure.
The Philosopher King 02-09-05, 08:38 AM	I'm a bit intrigued here....how DID your sorceress actually destroy an entire plane? Without any intervention from other more powerful mortals, or from Gods? And how come there weren't any repercussions? ~preacher~ Well to be honest I suppose it was technically a demi-plane. We're epic (about level 26ish at the time) 3.0 Timestop + several meteor swarms localised to a tower (an eeeevil tower) which contained a rather important deific artefact. The tower collapsed in a rather hefty explosion which apparently tore a hole in the plane. On the upside, we didn't have to actually attack the evil undead deity thingy that was stomping around. On the downside, kablamo. And I didn't say there weren't any repercussions. The DM just hasn't had a chance to spring them on us yet ;)
hiroshimahamster 02-09-05, 10:05 AM	My comrades and I managed to "kill" a lich by blowing him skyhigh. The fact that we haven't found his boxy-thingy doesn't mean anything... :blush: It is unlikely that he kept it nearby because we were on the ocean at the time. For a supposedly intelligent lich, he was pretty dumb - he forgot that we were ever-so-slightly pyromad and we were sitting on a ship full of gunpowder!!! :schemes: [We destroyed some of his creations before using little things called flourbombs! :devil: ] The lich attempted to attack me with magic missiles but I was able to dodge them and the fighter kept him busy by hitting him with his morningstar (dumb, as it didn't hit, but useful). This gave the rest of my party enough time to start lowering the life-raft. The rogue fired a ring of fireball at the gunpowder below deck (the missiles blew a hole in the floor) and leaped into the boat :pile: . The rest of us then started to row wildly in the direction of land. :pbbbtt: Voila! Chicken Fried Lich anyone? :evillaugh Yes, I know that was bad, but it was true... :blush: (Oh, and the crew kind of... slightly... vaporised... Ooops! :angelhide ) That's one way, any-who... Any tips on finishing him (when he returns from orbit)? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- We put a lich into orbit! Yey! First lich in space! This proves that you don't need to be high level to kick :censored: !All you need is a DM who'll give you the opportunity to create explosives...
Starmage21 02-09-05, 10:32 AM	create gemstone phylactery place gemstone phylactery in ornamental sword add more gems enchant sword to +5/Vorpal let adventurers find it perfectly hidden phylactery
cynical 02-09-05, 11:00 AM	I usually use planar binding and threatenimpswiththingthat make thier masters seem like cudly teddy bears. Put a few dozen imps to work on locating where the liches soul went after we blew him sky high and reward the one who finds it will usually work. Of course most the liches I end up faceing have extraplanar hiding holes thearevery well defended.
Drachasor 02-09-05, 11:03 AM	The lich attempted to attack me with magic missiles but I was able to dodge them How?
preacher of nothing 02-09-05, 11:44 AM	The Philosopher King: Ahhh, well, that's ok then ;) As for killing a lich, if the lich is played well enough it'll be incredibly difficult to destroy it. Remember a few things: 1. The lich cam return in 1d10 days after it's been killed (which can mean 10 days, but also 1 or 2 days) 2. The phylactery could look like ANYTHING 3. The phylactery could be ANYWHERE 4. Even if you DO destroy the phylactery, if the lich has already come back, you'll have to kill it again. 5. After you've killed the lich, and it has returned, and you've finally managed to destroy the phylactery, if it has 120.000 GP and 4800 XP it can just avoid you and build another one that it'll hide even better ;) Yep...sounds like a real ***** killing a lich permanently, doesn't it? That's because it was meant that way. Liches, along with mindflayers and a few other notable monsters are supposed to be BBEGs. Not just some railroad tool or such. And when i hear about players i know IRL and that i know are ridiculously stupid at the game go "Oh, but i managed to kill a lich", it makes me sick that a DM would make it that easy. It also makes me sick when i hear about mind flayers sitting there in the middle of the room just waiting to be beaten to death with pointy sharp pieces of metal just so that one of the characters in the party can become an illithid player. So fellow DM's around the world! Heed my call and remember the grandeur that all mindflayers and lich and such monsters have!!!!!!!!! ahem....sorry bout that rant... Now...info on how to kill the lich permanently: 1. Most liches will have undead minions...well...we all know that. Most of those minions will be mindless undead such as zombies and skeletons. But chances are you'll also find intelligent undead minions such as vampires, ghosts and the like. Try to get as much information out of them as possible. If you can't, fight them. If you win, you might have to resort to torture to get some information. If you manage, that's cool. if not, kill them....a little "Speak with dead" never hurt anyone. Hopefully this will get you some information on the location of the phylactery as well as of the lich. 2. If the above doesn't work, consider this: The lich will most likely need supplies and other things like material components for spells and so on and so forth. Now, he can't exactly send his zombies to wander the city to buy these things so he probably has a contact in the nearest civilized area. Now, your DM might be a bastard here. Here are two options: - The bad one: The lich has some sort of deal with somebody in the city that is very mysterious and some peasant brings the stuff in a wagon and dumps it in front of the lich's place, where the zombies take it from. This can be solved, since any such deal can be rooted and you can find the connection. But the bad part is if he has no clue where the phylactery is. - The good one: The contact delivers the stuff personally because it's too delicate/volatile or he doesn't trust peasants to run errands or something. This is the shorter route, and means you don't waste valuable time trying to find out who the guy is. However, again, he might not have a clue where the phylactery is. Here's how you go about this: You talk to the guy, you use whatever methods are required to make sure he obeys you. Maybe place a geas on him if you're high enough level, or maybe placing some sort of collar around his neck that threatens to explode if he does something wrong (which won't, but a nice bluff check will have him believe you). When the lich returns, use the contact to gather as much information as possible. This might take a long long time, but it'll make for some nice rp-ing, and the DM might throw you a bone or some sort of hint. I'll come up with more ideas later, cause right now i'm pretty tired... Hope i helped ~preacher~
preacher of nothing 02-09-05, 11:46 AM	create gemstone phylactery place gemstone phylactery in ornamental sword add more gems enchant sword to +5/Vorpal let adventurers find it perfectly hidden phylactery Yes, this is a very good example of how sneaky a lich can be. It's quite often encountered actually that a lich make his phylactery in an item of interest for the players. ~preacher~
Darastin 02-09-05, 12:07 PM	I have some issues with that "vorpal phylactery". As PCs tend to check items with detect magic and identify or analyze dweomer on a regular basis, this one will probably be found out. The phylactery will either detect as a seperate magical aura ("Hey, that gemstone is an item of its own! ID it!") or, if it is considered part of the weapon's magic, will be identified together with the weapon. Remeber, the phylactery is a magic item, after all. Oh, and there is one really good reason for the lich not to keep his phylactery with him (or even in arm's reach): Mordenkainens Disjunction. Just my two €-cents; Darastin
preacher of nothing 02-09-05, 01:11 PM	I have some issues with that "vorpal phylactery". As PCs tend to check items with detect magic and identify or analyze dweomer on a regular basis, this one will probably be found out. The phylactery will either detect as a seperate magical aura ("Hey, that gemstone is an item of its own! ID it!") or, if it is considered part of the weapon's magic, will be identified together with the weapon. Remeber, the phylactery is a magic item, after all. Oh, and there is one really good reason for the lich not to keep his phylactery with him (or even in arm's reach): Mordenkainens Disjunction. Just my two ?-cents; Darastin technically speaking, yes, you're correct. Most parties do detect magic/identify/analyze dweomer. But a particularly evil (or slightly stupid) DM might just avoid that and therefore also finding out about the phylactery by saying "The magic items in the loot are a +2 flaming greatsword, an amulet of natural armor +3 and blah blah blah". Also, most sorcerers won't have these spells as they can get them identified in other places or by the party mage, and in this particular case the mage will most likely replace these spells with more offensive ones for the encounter with the lich. So it'll take them at least a day till they find out everything about the loot. Meanwhile, the lich or its servants might return. Not to mention many more devilish things such as leaving the lich having the sword be a +x vorpal sword, letting them get it, then a long time after the party;s tank has been using it, somehow get ahold of it, and replace that pretty pommel jewel with an identical one...only it's his phylactery. To make it even more interesting, while the party is resting somewhere have a band of bandits steal all their stuff and take it back to their lair. By the time they get to the lair, get rid of all the bandits and get to where their stolen loot is, the lich will have already been done with it. That way, there's no reason to expect someone was aiming ESPECIALLY for the tank's sword, since a lot of things were stolen, and also no reason to cast any of the identify/detect magic spells on their already owned items... :devil: ~preacher~
hiroshimahamster 02-10-05, 09:46 AM	In responce to your question I have only one answer: luck. Don't ask me about the details... I don't know how - the lich may not have been paying much attention to me but let's just say I haven't managed it again... He was probably more concerned with the fighter brandishing a morningstar close to his face and wasn't concentrating on what a rival was doing. I can't remember the exact details, but I know that my necromancer did a spellcraft check, figured out the spell and, with a successful reflex save, stepped to the side. I love natural 20's! Now that I think about it, the floor took the damage so that may have been his intended target, but when my character looked back, there was a hole in the deck where she had been standing. If she hadn't of moved, she would have ended up below deck and probably dead. [The boat lasted about 2 rounds more, definitely not long enough to get up, leg it up the stairs and into the lifeboat.] One good thing: when a character dies, in our group they are not strictly speaking supposed to help the others. She and the rogue made the plan. It would have taken slightly longer to create it if she had died.
Delfedd 02-10-05, 03:01 PM	In the book Libris Mortis, their is a spell called haunt shift i suggest you check that out. It makes the undead essentialy a ghost, abeit without incorpreal shape. You than run away as fast as you can, and blow up the castle/dungeon/city that the litch was hiding in.
Roboradish 02-10-05, 03:12 PM	Well, if it turns out he has a crapload of phylacteries, seal him inside a large iron box. Give it an antimagic field. Deliver it to the temple of the lawful good god of your choice. Of course, theres always the whole "In but a few eons, this city will be dust and this box will rust and I will be free." schtick, but hey- what state do you think his mind will be in in a few eons? I'm not just talking 'I will destroy you all!' insane, I'm talking 'drooling and just sitting there' insane.
preacher of nothing 02-10-05, 04:13 PM	Well, if it turns out he has a crapload of phylacteries, seal him inside a large iron box. Give it an antimagic field. Deliver it to the temple of the lawful good god of your choice. Of course, theres always the whole "In but a few eons, this city will be dust and this box will rust and I will be free." schtick, but hey- what state do you think his mind will be in in a few eons? I'm not just talking 'I will destroy you all!' insane, I'm talking 'drooling and just sitting there' insane. :rofl: 1. I don't think the lich can have more than one phylactery 2. I doubt that while you're placing him inside a large iron box he'll just stay there and be content with it instead of teleporting Sorry, but the idea sounds a bit absurd. Please feel free to explain to me how you'd be able to pull this off, step by step. ~preacher~
fallabel 02-10-05, 04:49 PM	Well, the iron box thing is conceivable. Just gotta knock him out and then throw him in there. So, buy a trucheon (1-handed martial weapon, deals 1d8 nonlethal damage). Attack him and get his HP down real low. Then switch to the trucheon. As soon as the amount of nonlethal damage you deal equals his current (damaged) HP, he's unconcious. Throw him in the box, and seal him up tight.
Darastin 02-10-05, 05:40 PM	Nonlethal damage? Versus undead? :rofl: Insert coin, try again ;) Just my two €-cents; Darastin
fallabel 02-10-05, 05:42 PM	Oops, forgot about that. :rolleyes: Anyway, I'm not too familiar with how lichs work. If you kill one, does its body just reanimate, or does it reappear elsewhere?
preacher of nothing 02-10-05, 06:02 PM	Nonlethal damage? Versus undead? :rofl: Insert coin, try again ;) Just my two ?-cents; Darastin :rofl: that one actually had me laughin' ;) But it's ok, we're all good, everyone makes slip-ups. As for the reanimation, the text in the MM isn't clear on that, it just says: "Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death". Personally, i'd rule that it appears in a place it chose when creating the phylactery (near the phylactery, in its castle, 100 miles east of the phylactery, etc. etc. etc.). Libris Mortis might be more specific on this, but i don't have it yet :( ~preacher~
Tiddles 02-10-05, 08:15 PM	The MM mentions that the phylactery holds the life essence of the lich. Its the only thing that keeps them alive. I probable wouldn't allow multiple phylactery's. I'd say its non-transferable either. Unless the lich has a base of operations he's probable going to carry/wear it. A cleric chatting with god, or a wizard scrying would love to find an unattended, unprotected phylactery. However, most DM's like to be a bit more sneaky than just having the lich wear his life essense on his forhead. Again see his base of operations. I always wanted to make a lich that cut his own body open and stored his phylactery somewhere inside of himself (shoulder, foot, skull). He is undead and a cleric could easiely heal himself after these wounds. Looks like it might be useful to store up on detect, diviniation, and searching abilities. If all else fails, ask a god.
Loren Pechtel 02-11-05, 01:15 AM	If I were a lich I would store the phylactery far from my base of operations and warded against divination/scrying. Check out the SBG--there's a room that's permanently warded. I'd make one like that very well hidden and store it there.
Maniacal_Cackle 02-11-05, 01:34 AM	:rofl: 1. I don't think the lich can have more than one phylactery 2. I doubt that while you're placing him inside a large iron box he'll just stay there and be content with it instead of teleporting Sorry, but the idea sounds a bit absurd. Please feel free to explain to me how you'd be able to pull this off, step by step. ~preacher~ Well, he did mention an anti-magic field... So why not have that active before you attempt to put him in it? Also, there's always grappling (though many a lich will have silent, still teleport available)... Additionally, you could probably magically transport the lich yourself (I'm sure there's at least one spell that could do it)... And what about an attack box? A magic box that attacks the lich and tries to imprison it within itself (animated object)? Wanna know what's a nifty ability? Counterspelling... (BTW, does that still exist? >.<) As a final note, like I said before, imprisoning him in a cage with anti-magic and imprisoning it beneath the earth (anti-magic only affecting the creatures within, of course ^_^) would be my way of choice, probably getting him in there via means mentioned above.
Bane 02-13-05, 05:43 PM	Smart liches don't lose their phylacteries. If I were to make a lich, he would have gathered together his minions, given them all an item of some sort, and given them instructions on where to hide it. Then, as soon as one hides his item, they die, thanks to the feat Craft Contingent Spell, and my friend Circle of Death. Then I would get some more minions, give them each an item of some sort, and cast Imprisonment on each of them in different places. Again, use Contingent Circle of Death set to go off if they are freed from Imprisonment. Stops people from trying that more than once. Then make lots of donations to various museums across the planes. Make several donations to the Gleaners. Hire dragons to do heinous acts, and pay them in gems. Hold an auction, in which you sell several items from your adventuring days. Make all of these things incredibly public, so there will be no question in anyones mind that you have gone to great expense to distance yourself from your phylactery. Pick one of the items to be your phylactery. Let them try to find it, it'll never happen.
Delfedd 02-13-05, 07:47 PM	Hopefully, the lich hasn't made a phylactery of a distant kingdom's crown or signet ring - the kingdom might take offense. Or an item of great historical value. Or found some way to make a phylactery out of a living being - innocent children work well for this (nice moral dilemma), especially if they are of royal blood. A monument or statue in the center of a town, city, or royal/imperial museum. Again, the law comes down on you. Or hidden it in some hard to reach location. Why would the players not detect for magic items then use a commune spell to determine which, if any, of them are phylacteries? Or cast the spell hide life, taken their finger, made it a philacterie, give it to a random bum in a bar, and then cast imprisonment on them. I always wanted to make a lich that cut his own body open and stored his phylactery somewhere inside of himself (shoulder, foot, skull). He is undead and a cleric could easiely heal himself after these wounds. . but... if the litch gets blown up, wouldn't they be like "HAH! i'll just return to the philacterie that just got blown up with me"
preacher of nothing 02-14-05, 02:20 PM	Well, he did mention an anti-magic field... So why not have that active before you attempt to put him in it? Also, there's always grappling (though many a lich will have silent, still teleport available)... Additionally, you could probably magically transport the lich yourself (I'm sure there's at least one spell that could do it)... And what about an attack box? A magic box that attacks the lich and tries to imprison it within itself (animated object)? Wanna know what's a nifty ability? Counterspelling... (BTW, does that still exist? >.<) As a final note, like I said before, imprisoning him in a cage with anti-magic and imprisoning it beneath the earth (anti-magic only affecting the creatures within, of course ^_^) would be my way of choice, probably getting him in there via means mentioned above. 1. Too bad antimagic field is a personal range spell with only 10 feet centered on the caster huh? ;) 2. If a player actually gets a chance to grapple the lich, the DM should be shot. 3. Nope. You can't teleport the lich. Show me the spell that allows it (And even if there is such a spell, remember the Will saves and Spell Resistance the lich has) 4. Magic box? Heh....one word...Disintegrate 5. Animated object? Dispel. Though Disintegrate should work just fine too. As for the phylactery discussions, there's a very good reason liches don't walk around with their phylactery on them. Mord's (Mage's) Disjunction. ~preacher~
Evered 02-14-05, 08:58 PM	The best place to hide a phylactery is in a Staff of Power or a Staff of the Magi. Are you sure you want to break that very expensive item to kill the Lich? :D
kam_Islash 02-14-05, 09:11 PM	Isn't there an anti teleportation field or something like that? In every campaign ive been in that involves Sigil, the city can not be teleported to. ///
weretouched 02-21-05, 01:55 AM	i play a lich usually, these are some good ideas thanks. here's a couple of ideas a major artifact as a phylactery i think before sometime i found a spell that made a permanent space, your own plane essentialy. you could protect this from all atemps other than your own to get there, and of course hide the item here. a lich close to his god maybe a mysic theurge may pray for his god to protect it... get an item of magic that cant be dispelled or targeted at all by any magic/psionic affect, to protect the phylactery. hide it in a dungeon,classic, have the dungeon immune to any ability that allows quick movement(basically anything other than walking) Have a large pit filled with +5 vorpal spikes, an invisible beholder that doesnt need to eat,drink,sleep somehow,and a very picky antimagic area. the pcs come in and can jump over the pit, hitting the beholder and falling to theyre death.or they can magicaly fly over,upon which the beholder opens his eye dispelling your fly,you fall.that picky antimagic stops things like see invisibility and such spells/powers.
Maniacal_Cackle 02-21-05, 02:37 AM	An amazingly obvious solution to permanently killing a lich struck me the other day! Step 1: "Kill" the lich. Step 2: Bind the "dead" lich's limbs and toss him into some shallow water. Step 3: Ressurection (Raise Dead does not function on undead, but resurrect does, I think) :evillaugh :devil: :schemes: (assuming I'm right and no one else has posted this). Edit: Maybe this wouldn't work because after you kill him, he rises again as a lich? I don't know, this may be a grey area, I as a DM would probably rule that once the character is no longer a lich, he's no longer connected to the phylactery (and let's face it, his soul can't be in two places at once, and so it would have to leave the phylactery to go into the body... The only problem is: does the phylactery soul bind the soul into it? Or can it be "ripped" out via resurrection type spells?)
VoodooMike 02-21-05, 02:51 AM	i play a lich usually, these are some good ideas thanks. here's a couple of ideas a major artifact as a phylactery You can't incorporate your phylactery into any existing magic item - if you need confirmation, check page 151 of Libris Mortis. +5 vorpal spikes... Lets whip up a few of those, shall we? At only 200,000gp market price each, and the minor stipulation that they not be spikes at all, but rather slashing weapons.. they're a steal! Or hey, make them yourself for only 100,000gp and 8,000xp per. It may take you several hundred years to keep amassing the necessary XP to create them, but hey, you've got it, right? With that level of vicious munchkinism I'm tempted to stomp on your phylactery myself! Liches will, I'm sure, be willing to go to SOME expense to protect their phylacteries, but not dedicate the rest of their physical existence to it, or else there's no point in existing. Consider a modification of the previous suggestion... Give your phylactery to the most slack-jawed idiot you can find, and stand him in your sanctum. Then, as a reward, you give him the magic item you made just for him, an item that casts Imprisonment on the wearer, triggered by any contact with, say, air. You can make it be a 5x a day thing if you so desire, which cuts down the cost. Since the guy is an idiot, his will save will stink compared to your save DC, and down he'll go. Should you ever get killed, it's going to take at least 6 casts of Freedom on that spot to get the idiot out of the ground. Chances are, your average party of adventurers will not be prepared for that, and/or will not assume there's a limit on the number of times it'll happen (by the third attempt and failure, they'll likely assume they've figured out the pattern). There's no surefire way to hide your phylactery if your enemies have access to Legend Lore, Find the Path, and/or Wish, but you don't need to hide it forever... just... 1d10 days, really ;)
VoodooMike 02-21-05, 02:56 AM	An amazingly obvious solution to permanently killing a lich struck me the other day! Step 1: "Kill" the lich. Step 2: Bind the "dead" lich's limbs and toss him into some shallow water. Step 3: Ressurection (Raise Dead does not function on undead, but resurrect does, I think) :evillaugh :devil: :schemes: (assuming I'm right and no one else has posted this). No, nobody else posted that because it's not a valid method. There is no mortal way to bring someone back from the dead if they don't wish to be brought back (3.5 PHB p171 under "Bringing back the dead).
Bonzai 02-21-05, 01:44 PM	Some of the suggestions go contrary to the trypical mindset of a lich. Keep in mind that the typical litch is a control freak. They became a lich to escape death in the first place. They are not going to let their only means of destruction wander out in the word subject to the whims of chance. So while they might put their phylactery in an item of value, they won't let some group of adventurers wander off with it, just begging to be disintegrated, blasted by dragon fire, trapped in the abyss, or any other such unpleasantness which adventurers tend to incure. No, a Lich would rather keep it close enough that he could subtly protect it. The lich I used kept his in a secret underground chamber, that was 50ft below the lowest lvl of his tower, in solid stone, protected by an adamantine box, that had varied protections placed upon it, and it's auras hidden. This way his phylactery was safley under the seat of his power, unaccessable by most means, no one knows about it, and without divine help, no one ever will. In addition, he has a contingency in place stating; If his body is destroyed, and 11 days pass without him reforming, a revive undead spell is cast upon him. So, even if you destroy him and his phylactery, he is still coming back. Killing a lich is a rare and difficult thing to do. I vaguely remember a spell way back when that allowed you to restore undead to life, which was a comon way of doing things. For the life of me I can't remember the name of it. It was kind of like the stone to flesh spell... Also, in the WoTSQ series, Dyrr transformed himself into a construct. If it was a permanent transformation then he might be able to be destroyed normally. Then there is the PrC, Hunter of the dead or something like that, that allows you to give "True and final death" to an undead that you destroy. Wether this works for a lich or not is up for debate.
Maniacal_Cackle 02-21-05, 09:08 PM	No, nobody else posted that because it's not a valid method. There is no mortal way to bring someone back from the dead if they don't wish to be brought back (3.5 PHB p171 under "Bringing back the dead). Subject has to be willing... Forgot about that little gem... Heh, oh well, it was fun while it lasted :D Okay, on another note of "ripping" the soul out of the phylactery, trap the soul targets a creature, not it's soul. Well, if you read it specifically, I'm not sure what I would call if I was DM on that one... So do you think you could use trap the soul to imprison the soul/body of the lich? Or would you have to target the phylactery, kind of negating the point? Edit: Now that I think about it, this really shouldn't work either (though technically it could, I think). After all, the lich's body no longer operates as a "pointer" to the soul, only the phylactery does (or maybe I've programmed too much?). But then, the body has to be connected to the soul somehow still, otherwise the lich wouldn't care if his phylactery was destroyed... So I don't know! Thoughts?
Roboradish 02-25-05, 10:32 PM	:rofl: 1. I don't think the lich can have more than one phylactery 2. I doubt that while you're placing him inside a large iron box he'll just stay there and be content with it instead of teleporting Sorry, but the idea sounds a bit absurd. Please feel free to explain to me how you'd be able to pull this off, step by step. ~preacher~ Well, I was assuming that there would be some sort of Anti-Magic Field availible, but if not, Fill the entire box with concrete and cut off his tounge. (Can't use hands for gestures and can't talk for verbal spell thingys. No components or spellbook.) Since this is the temple of a major LG god, I'm sure the priests would be quite willing to help
Votan 02-25-05, 11:11 PM	Well, I was assuming that there would be some sort of Anti-Magic Field availible, but if not, Fill the entire box with concrete and cut off his tounge. (Can't use hands for gestures and can't talk for verbal spell thingys. No components or spellbook.) Since this is the temple of a major LG god, I'm sure the priests would be quite willing to help The beginning of the solution to this problem is a silent teleport spell. Don't ever leave home without it. :-)