Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sezarious 10-24-07, 07:46 PM	Hi guys! I was just wondering if you could help me out. A first time DM is going to step up into the ring, but he seems quite serious in putting together deadly enemies. It's a fifth level campaign and i'm playing a fighter/Wizard. I've got most things sorted out including Armor without spell failure (+1 Twilight Mithril chainshirt was suggested to me, so spell failure isn't a problem). Now, he has revealed our foes as equal level fighters/warriors on horseback with helms of antimagic field and huge ride checks, using them to negate a hit. I have worked it so that i can get 2 attacks per round (so i can hit at least once), but was wondering if anyone could suggest feats to help me in bringing these guys and their Warhorses down (i have 4 still for spending!)
Drachasor 10-24-07, 08:14 PM	They can only negate hits to their mounts, so you should be fine if you attack the troops themselves. That said, your DM sounds like he's more concerned with trying to kill you guys than present a reasonable challenge. Helms of anti-magic field, seriously? Anyhow, what sort of attacks can your party manage? Can you do ranged attacks from a position those warriors can't get to you (such as trees)? If you have spells that boost ranged attacks, you'll still get benefits if you are firing from outside the anti-magic field.
Sezarious 10-24-07, 08:26 PM	Really! Well he seems to think that you have to attack the mount first! I can already taste victory. I thought that the field would stop the spells from hitting, but i don't delve as deeply into the magic side of the game as i should. To be honest i don't know who else in the party will have ranged abilities, or even if they'll be with me to begin with. I will have some magic ability, so i guess that should help. Is there a penalty for attacking someone mounted?
Drachasor 10-24-07, 08:37 PM	Really! Well he seems to think that you have to attack the mount first! I can already taste victory. I thought that the field would stop the spells from hitting, but i don't delve as deeply into the magic side of the game as i should. To be honest i don't know who else in the party will have ranged abilities, or even if they'll be with me to begin with. I will have some magic ability, so i guess that should help. Is there a penalty for attacking someone mounted? Spells can't go through or into the field (except melf's acid arrow and other conjuration spells -- but not summoning spells). However, spells like True Strike will still work, so you can boost your ability to hit them with magic just fine, and those effects will stay up and active -- just stay out of the AMFs.
Sezarious 10-24-07, 08:51 PM	Well thank you for that! I should be ready then.
KillerVole 10-24-07, 09:43 PM	I'd disarm the riders, if possible. Or try to bull rush them. I'm not sure whether it would work, but it seems to me that a bull rush could "help" them dismount... Also, grab those helms! If you have any non-mages in the party, helms of Antimagic Field can make them really dangerous. Finally, remember that the baddies can't cast spells/use magic gear either. Really, using the terrain seems to be your best bet. Make them jump something, or swim, or do something slow and tedious. Then, try to knock them off their horses and watch them sink like bricks/stumble around.
Mock26 10-24-07, 09:49 PM	Invest in caltrops! Lots of them! I'd suggest that you buy a portable hole, line it with stell, then fill it up with caltrops! When you see these buggers approaching, start dumping them out to create a defensive perimeter. Also, wagons. Buy a very long wagon that is nothing more than a flat bed. Attach a bunch of metal rings to the flat bed. If you have several of these wagons you can quickly set them up end to end and then stick really long spears into the rings so that they are facing outwards. You could even have the spears already mounted in the rings and the rings connected to each other and on hinges. As you travel the spears are sticking up. When the enemy nears, yank out a pin and drop the spears down so that they're facing outward. Have each person in your group driving a wagon like this and you could make a nifty little defensive position in a hurry that will keep them from effectively charging. Another option would be to have a wagon and throw some doors in the back. Attach an immovable rod to each door. You can quickly set up the doors to create a makeshift barricade that the horses won't be able to get around.
Sinfire Titan 10-24-07, 10:25 PM	Go for the eyes!
Radiun 10-24-07, 10:45 PM	Fight them from the middle of a lake/air... and hope they don't bust out a Hippocampus/Pegasus (At least I THINK it's a Hippocampus) Bows FTW.
Mock26 10-24-07, 10:50 PM	Go for the eyes! The squeaky wheel gets the kick!
Drachasor 10-24-07, 11:07 PM	The squeaky wheel gets the kick! Butt-kicking for Goodness!
Drachasor 10-24-07, 11:10 PM	Fight them from the middle of a lake/air... and hope they don't bust out a Hippocampus/Pegasus (At least I THINK it's a Hippocampus) It's probably safe to assume they have Hippocampuses (-campusi?), though it would work out well if they didn't. -Drachasor PS. You probably meant Hippogriffs.
Mock26 10-24-07, 11:17 PM	Butt-kicking for Goodness! There is strength in numbers, and I am two or three, at least. Boo points, I punch - it's a very simple relationship, but it is effective! I grow tired of shouting battle cries when fighting this mage. Boo will finish his eyeballs once and for all, so he does not rise again! Evil, meet my sword! SWORD, MEET EVIL! Gotta love Minsc! (And Boo!)
Radiun 10-25-07, 12:18 AM	It's probably safe to assume they have Hippocampuses (-campusi?), though it would work out well if they didn't. -Drachasor PS. You probably meant Hippogriffs. No no, Hippogriffs, half-eafles half-lions, eat Hippocampi, half-horse half-fish, and pegasi, half-horse half-wings, because they love horse meat... but THERE'S a solution, loose a pack of Hippogriffs on the riders to soften them up!:)
Mock26 10-25-07, 12:22 AM	No no, Hippogriffs, half-eafles half-lions, eat Hippocampi, half-horse half-fish, and pegasi, half-horse half-wings, because they love horse meat... but THERE'S a solution, loose a pack of Hippogriffs on the riders to soften them up!:) Um, just to nit pick a tiny but, but a pegasus is not half anything. It isn't a cross breed. It is a horse with wings.
Drachasor 10-25-07, 01:06 AM	No no, Hippogriffs, half-eafles half-lions, eat Hippocampi, half-horse half-fish, and pegasi, half-horse half-wings, because they love horse meat... but THERE'S a solution, loose a pack of Hippogriffs on the riders to soften them up!:) Now you are confusing hippogriffs and griffins. (Btw, the hippocampus also refers to a part of the human brain). Beyond that, "half-wings"....seriously? ;)
FrostWolf 10-25-07, 07:40 AM	Bags of marbles and caltrops. Poison dart into the horses, trip lines, get a halberd and set it vs. charge, web (spell), fight in a heavily wooded area, fight on a rocky slope, alchemist's fire at the horses(lets see if they can ride without a saddle!), Spook the horses with thunder stones, run away, then take their stuff in the night, lure them onto a bidge, the light both ends on fire, and lastly, put weasles down their pants. And make sure you get them helmates!
hiroshimahamster 10-25-07, 07:47 AM	Just a small thing... WHERE DID THEY GET HELMS OF ANTIMAGIC FIELD IF IT IS A FIFTH LEVEL CAMPAIGN?!?!?! In my opinion, it is just a little unfair at that level...then again, it is beatable...got any lamp oil, flour, tapers and a flint and steel? It is a very effective combination... :angelhide
Radiun 10-25-07, 08:55 AM	Always nice to know no-one can take a joke V.V; But I was wrong about the Hippogriffs, they get eaten by Griffin's too.
DrMorganes 10-25-07, 09:18 AM	For the record: griffon = lion/eagle mix hippogriff = horse/eagle mix hippocampus (hippocampi in the plural) are horse/fish It's hippogriffs that like horseflesh. And Minsc > all
Radiun 10-25-07, 11:32 AM	It's hippogriffs that like horseflesh. Page 140 of the MM. It's Griffon's who love to eat horses.
CCS 10-25-07, 12:54 PM	What types of spells/items do you have available? Maybe somthing that can (re)move decent quantities of earth? Simply craft yourself a trench about 10'-15'wide x 15'deep & cover it with an ilusion. Let the cav charge you..... Interseting uses for invisibilty effects as well if you can make it last long enough. Simply litter the expected battlefield with (invisible) boulders/spears etc. and wait patiently for the charge.
Eerongal 10-25-07, 01:02 PM	If you want to use spells on em, get some orb spells, they're conjuration and go through AMFs, so you could still blast them quite well. Also i agree with everyone else. Anti-magic field helmets? What the heck? That would be getting close to an epic magic item in my opinion.
Killydd 10-25-07, 07:30 PM	First, I have to agree with the "helms of antimagic field???" brief calculation indicates it at 198k price, simply beyond belief for the level. well, 132k if you consider the helm to be associated with the spell, but... I'm thinking tanglefoot bags myself.
dknight100 10-25-07, 07:56 PM	While AMF Helms do sound more than a tad silly at 5th level, its hardly a problem. Just bust out conjuration spells, as they are not affected by passing through an AMF. Some spells you may find handy: Grease: Being a first level spell, its not even your most expensive spell commodity. Have fun riding on that, enemy horsemen :D Acid Arrow: Magical damage, though there is frequently handier uses for magic than just damage. Web: Higher level than grease, but also an order of magnitude more effective as it will outright stop the riders, not just make riding harder. Glitterdust: Blinds them, in addition to making it impossible for them to hide (not that that part matters) But in general, blind opponents: not nearly as strong. I would hang on to spells you have of a higher level than those though, for later. Why did your dm reveal your opponents though?
rironin 10-25-07, 08:13 PM	Guys on horses with AMF? Sounds like they lose to flight. If you have any full 5th level arcane casters in the party, some scrolls of fly or even levitate should do the trick. Just stay high enough, and you're all set. Then, if they've got bows (they'll probably be optimized to kill you with lances or something anyways) then protection from arrows, wind wall, or somesuch will basically make you completely immune to them. As for offense, those orb spells are great, and anyone who can use a ranged weapon decently could basically take them down with attrition. I'm assuming you'll fight them somewhat in the open. It would be extra-mean if your DM thought of this, and attacked you in enclosed spaces where you can't even avoid the AMF. It sounds like your DM might be the kind of person who would enjoy doing that... but that'd be very foolish. AMF isn't something 5th level PCs should be coming up against anyways, and if it's used in the right environment, it can be extremely dangerous. Either your DM has designed weaknesses into the encounter to make it reasonable, or he thinks he's built a super-dangerous encounter but is forgetting some obvious deterrents (like flight), or he's going to put you in an unfair situation designed to kill you. Hopefully it's one of the first two. Has your DM thought about what you guys are going to do with a bunch of helms of AMF once you beat these guys? Maybe they'll all explode or something, or maybe he doesn't actually expect you to win.
Black Kitten 10-26-07, 03:28 AM	Kill the horse.
Sezarious 10-26-07, 10:20 AM	The way i see it, i'm going to do a fair bit in physical damage too. Unfortunately all i know is i'm going up against these enemies, that's all i know. I don't know about the terrain or anything. As i see it, he was simply busting to boast about his wonderfully deadly creations. I'll probably be simply dropped suddenly into combat too with little or no time to prepare and will be probably on my own with maybe a small party of warrior npcs who will be there simply for decoration. I can get a total grapple bonous of 15 to each roll. I can then do unarmed LETHAL damage of 9-13. I'm doing this through the feat Initiation into the way. It gives me an edge. But if i'm against a lot of guys i could be in trouble. Thanks for all your help guys. I hope i start off in a party as we could use some of those suggestions. I have magical limitations though. I still have two feats to spend. Does anyone have any suggestions?
KismetRose 10-26-07, 10:43 AM	I'll second Killydd's suggestion: tanglefoot bags. They're alchemical, not magical, rely on ranged touch, and they entangle targets (-2 attack, -4 Dex) and reduce speed even on a save. But if the target fails a Reflex save, they get glued in place until they can break free or 2d4 rounds. It'll cut down their movement and take up some of their actions if they want to try to scrape the stuff off. And even if something has a high Reflex save, there's always a chance it won't make the DC. Not long ago that happened in our group and it helped out a lot - especially since our foe was flying and it fell to the ground. But seriously, it seems like you would do better to talk with the DM about the balance of the encounter. There's a wealth per level limit for a reason; fifth level encounters with helms of that caliber aren't balanced very well. This could only be the start of an ongoing problem that will not go away once these enemies are defeated.
Alakar 10-26-07, 11:05 AM	First off, if you win this battle, your set for gear for a while. I mean, selling the helms after the battle will realy get under the DM's skin, brining in much gold yo but stuff characters of your level have no business having. That being said, we must win said battle. I'll assume you have 2nd level spells for this encounter. Number one, Alterself into something that has incredibly good natural armor. Hold action to pepper them with tanglefoot bags. After that, pepper them with orb spells. Hope the rest of your party has enough muscle to finish off what you can't kill. This is a brief tactic, basing off of what little knowledge we have about your character and party. Post a little more detail such as what spells you have, other party members, so on and so forth, and we can give a better strategy! Edit.. Didn't notice Kismet mentioned the wealth thing.
Sezarious 10-26-07, 11:25 AM	I will pretty much have all spells in my list, as the world we are in is meant to be mage dominent, therefore spells are going to be dirt cheap. Should i specialise in a school? I wan't versatility. When it comes to picking starting spells, i havn't done it yet, so i'm open for all spell strategy. I'll have 2nd level and 1 third level spell (when i say fighter cross wizard i decided to halve the fighter feats and number of mage spells, then average the HP). It was surprisingly easy. With my fighter side, i can do around 10-20 points damage each go. I do know that another player will robably cross class. There are no divine classes in the game (gulp), so he'll probably go Rogue/Rogue-Fighter. ANoter just likes brute force and will go fighter and yes there probably will be a single mage. I think that we'll all meet up AFTER the first battle with the nasty horsemen though. Maybe i should just memorise a fly spell and go away.
Alakar 10-26-07, 11:40 AM	Use the spell alter self into something with a high NA. THen cast fly (I wasn't aware you would be able to have acess to it), also cast shield. Shoot spells and arrows at the enemies at will. Have the fighter and fighter/rogue throw tangle foot bags, and use polearms to totatly destroy the horsemen. Well, your companions might die, but you my flying friend, will probably live to tell the tale! If they have bows, good luck 5'th level fighters hitting 10+dex+5+4+8(highest na from the mm you can have I think, other options are there depending on what books you can use). Assuming dex of +2, thats ac 29. Fighter rolls d20 +4(assuming dex 18) +5 (bab) +1(if they have a magic bow!). Hits you on a 19 or 20. Good odds for you! Hope it goes well!
DM_Shonuff 10-26-07, 05:41 PM	To the OP. *sits around in the woods, thinking about your dilemma and chews on a piece of venison looking up at the trees.* "We make spears..long as a man..twice as long.." "That long?" "Aye. That long." "Some men are longer than others..." "yer mothers been tellin ya stories about me again eh?"
DrMorganes 10-27-07, 07:48 AM	Page 140 of the MM. It's Griffon's who love to eat horses. hm. Could've sworn it was hippogriffs. Ah, well, thanks for setting me straight!
FarrenCronwing 10-27-07, 05:57 PM	Spears. Dig spears up into the ground (facing the knights) and fall back behind them. Watch them fall before you, then take those :censored: helmets.
Rood_Inverse 10-27-07, 06:47 PM	To the OP. *sits around in the woods, thinking about your dilemma and chews on a piece of venison looking up at the trees.* "We make spears..long as a man..twice as long.." "That long?" "Aye. That long." "Some men are longer than others..." "yer mothers been tellin ya stories about me again eh?" I got the reference, if it makes you feel any better.
Guardian1 10-29-07, 12:58 AM	Now you are confusing hippogriffs and griffins. (Btw, the hippocampus also refers to a part of the human brain). Beyond that, "half-wings"....seriously? ;) Yeah, griffins are the half-lion, half-eagle creatures. Hippogriffs are half-eagle, half horse.
Count Arioch the 28th 10-29-07, 01:47 AM	My solution? Do nothing. Trust me, if you do anything that gives you the upper hand, this DM will just pull another bullcrap magic item out of his tuchis to make sure you lose.
SokenzanMarauder 10-29-07, 01:58 AM	Okay, here we go. There is one, and only one, legitimate solution to your problem. Your DM is exhibiting standard douchbag behavior, he needs to be treated as such, please read this and follow it to a tee: http://www.geocities.com/absolutecryogenic/dnd/steve.pdf
Sezarious 10-29-07, 08:08 AM	I think i can give it a good go. I appreciate the four step course. You know, that guy is a bit of a Steve. Something else i should mention is that he's modifying everything. I don't think that a first time DM should do that. He should make it easy for himself. For instance, no clerics, monks, druids or Bards in the game. I said i would probably take the leadership feat and have a nice little personal guard (all outfitted by me out of my own pocket with shiny new boots), and he said he'd probably modify it to have less numbers, all first level and no cohorts! I was a little ticked off about that.:banghead: What do you guys think?
rironin 10-29-07, 11:44 AM	I think i can give it a good go. I appreciate the four step course. You know, that guy is a bit of a Steve. Something else i should mention is that he's modifying everything. I don't think that a first time DM should do that. He should make it easy for himself. For instance, no clerics, monks, druids or Bards in the game. I said i would probably take the leadership feat and have a nice little personal guard (all outfitted by me out of my own pocket with shiny new boots), and he said he'd probably modify it to have less numbers, all first level and no cohorts! I was a little ticked off about that.:banghead: What do you guys think?No clerics, monks, druids, or bards, and he's a first time DM? Yikes. So healing is limited to... paladins? Do favored souls exist? I guess it's possible that this isn't the case, but it sounds like your new DM has bitten off a little more than he can chew with these modifications. Probably not going to end well. But hey, most DMs can tell stories of their first tragically mishandled campaigns. :P If he's a nice guy, and seems like he can learn from his mistakes, then I say stick with it and see what happens. It sounds like this adventure/campaign might be a bit brokenated, but things might get better in a while...
dknight100 10-29-07, 04:58 PM	Indeed, first time DM's always have a steep learning curve. Some steeper than others. He'll either learn, or stop DM'ing, but i assume he's a friend, so just see it through, and offer advice - don't just say "dude, you suck", or take the 4-Step Steve Plan - those are just antagonizing, and won't improve the campaign at all. Instead, when it is sucking, after the session and just to him, say something like "hey, you're just finding you're DM feet, here's some things i think can be improved". I know I appreciate feedback from my players, but insulting/whining is just irritating. In this case, just ask him why he wants to cut clerics, druids, monks and bards. Post it here, maybe we'll have some useful advice, maybe we'll have a chuckle. He might want a certain feel for the campaign, and being new, just doesn't know of alternative dnd settings/systems that might fit what he wants better, such as Arcana Evolved. Also, the antimagic hats, while expensive, aren't that much of a problem - it just prevents you as a wizard from using direct magical effects on them, and also prevents them from having any magical effects/items on themselves. Its certainly less worth crying over than spilt milk. I mean, for far less he could have given them all sorts of things that would have been far deadlier. Also, i wouldn't collect the hats for sale after either - it will just be the start to a clash with the DM over selling them for massive profit, and from how your new DM sounds, trying to stop it in a possibly less than productive manner. Not to mention carrying around antimagic hats means you're all in an antimagic field till they're sold, unless you string them to the end of your rope and drag them along.
Sezarious 10-30-07, 07:47 PM	Well, his idea is no divine magic. He told me yesterday that he may allow an extra specialisation for arcane magic (healing domain) instead. The campaign's generally based on a war where the question is "Should mages be the rulers?" That's why i chose a wizard/fighter, so that i can start a society based on the idea that it's leadership that matters (this would be later on after becoming much higher level). if there is an anti-magic field, i can cut my enemies. If there is a tight force all with tower shields, disintegrate. When i jokingly told him how much i will enjoy taking those helms, he said that they would only work for people with the same views as my enemies. So...
Bob Loblaw 10-30-07, 08:45 PM	If you know where and when the battle is going to take place, consider modifying the battlefield. Someone already mentioned pikes and someone else mentioned tanglefoot bags. Churn up the field so that the terrain is no longer suitable for charging. That will already make things easier for you. Add in some ropes tied to trees or posts about ankle level for the mounts. Cover the whole field in leaves. If you have enough rope, the horses aren't going to be charging. The next thing I would do is set up archers everywhere. Go for the riders. However, even at first level the mount is fair game. The best they should have is 8 ranks, +2 synergy, +2 saddle, +3 skill focus for a total of 15 (there should be no magic items to help them since they have the helms). While good, it's still not insurmountable. You could also consider setting up a series of haystacks. Coat them with oil. As the warriors come through, light the fires. This should cause enough smoke to give everyone concealment and make it more difficult to charge. This could also give your traps a better chance to remain out of view
Radiun 10-30-07, 08:59 PM	When i jokingly told him how much i will enjoy taking those helms, he said that they would only work for people with the same views as my enemies. So... So enjoy the system. Magic Items that only work for your guys AND are above the general power curve for level 5? Thank him :P
Goldenmaxter 10-30-07, 09:09 PM	Heh heh heh... I like the way your DM thinks! One idea is to take the feat overhead thrust from Draconomicon (I think thats it). It will get you attacks of opportunity from charging and trampling foes as well as a wicked Atk/Dmg roll modifier!
Sezarious 10-30-07, 10:08 PM	So enjoy the system. Magic Items that only work for your guys AND are above the general power curve for level 5? Thank him :P No, i mean the views of my enemies, so the "Bad guys" are the only ones who can use them.
Sezarious 10-30-07, 10:11 PM	Heh heh heh... I like the way your DM thinks! One idea is to take the feat overhead thrust from Draconomicon (I think thats it). It will get you attacks of opportunity from charging and trampling foes as well as a wicked Atk/Dmg roll modifier! That sounds delictimable! I'll take it.:tiphat:
1red13 10-30-07, 10:33 PM	Mundane ranged attack and put a barrier between the enemy and yourself so that they have to dismount. Maybe something simple like circle four wagons and pick them off with bowfire. As cheesy as AMF helms is at fifth level your not reliant upon magic gear for your mele combatant pcs. Spellcasters can buff while the others use ranged attacks.
Sinfire Titan 10-30-07, 11:28 PM	No, i mean the views of my enemies, so the "Bad guys" are the only ones who can use them. So in other words, your DM sucks. Well, nice knowing your character, better find a new campaign fast.
Radiun 10-31-07, 08:20 AM	No, i mean the views of my enemies, so the "Bad guys" are the only ones who can use them. Oh I know, but you can start crafting someday too...
Sezarious 10-31-07, 08:27 AM	So in other words, your DM sucks. Well, nice knowing your character, better find a new campaign fast. Oh, don't you worry about him! I knew that this guy would bat hard, so i have maxed out my character now so that he essentially has the spellcasting aspects, but is essentially very Spartain in his fighting. One of his weapons is a spear. He has a shield and Spartain looking helm and can perform a charge with which he makes a 10ft leap at the end and rolls double damage. I'm confident in my character, don't worry.
Sezarious 10-31-07, 08:32 AM	Oh I know, but you can start crafting someday too... Oh, i see. Perhaps i could curse the land so that only people on my side can eat red fruit or they'll be poisoned... OK, so it's in a book i read, but the ideas there.:cookie:
elondir 10-31-07, 08:56 AM	Think outside the box. Do not face deadly enemies unless you have no choice. I had my party locate an object in a four-story mansion with 15 hangman trees, a corpse gatherer, a banshee, a famine spirit, a medium shadow dragon, a flesh jelly, a greater mummy, a bone ooze, a ghost fighter (with a ghost touch weapon), a deathbringer, a ragewind, and a great feyr on the grounds. They managed to use flight and arcane eye to make it so they only had to face the dragon, the banshee, the ghost, and keep the flesh jelly occupied while they grabbed the amulet by flying through the window. On the next quest (I gave them xp for the creatures they actually confronted, which was enough to make them 13th level) I had five spell weavers plane shift in, then had each one spell weave 6 magic missiles at a PC (at 12th caster level that's 30d4+30 hp damage with no save and no miss chance since nobody had shield up). It was a TPK in the surprise round. I let them have mulligans on that one. The contrast here is that in the first, they had control over the situation. In the second, I ambushed them with a creature that should probably have a higher CR. Just remember you're not required to bash in the door and face them in combat.
Sezarious 10-31-07, 09:03 AM	Think outside the box. Do not face deadly enemies unless you have no choice. I had my party locate an object in a four-story mansion with 15 hangman trees, a corpse gatherer, a banshee, a famine spirit, a medium shadow dragon, a flesh jelly, a greater mummy, a bone ooze, a ghost fighter (with a ghost touch weapon), a deathbringer, a ragewind, and a great feyr on the grounds. They managed to use flight and arcane eye to make it so they only had to face the dragon, the banshee, the ghost, and keep the flesh jelly occupied while they grabbed the amulet by flying through the window. On the next quest (I gave them xp for the creatures they actually confronted, which was enough to make them 13th level) I had five spell weavers plane shift in, then had each one spell weave 6 magic missiles at a PC (at 12th caster level that's 30d4+30 hp damage with no save and no miss chance since nobody had shield up). It was a TPK in the surprise round. I let them have mulligans on that one. The contrast here is that in the first, they had control over the situation. In the second, I ambushed them with a creature that should probably have a higher CR. Just remember you're not required to bash in the door and face them in combat. Sigh... Your right. I could just run away. But you see, that would be against the Spartain code.:tongue: Oh look, i've considered it, but i'm just preparing in case i think i'll be capable. You never know.