Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mailman 12-10-07, 11:52 PM	So basically, in my dnd group, I play a warblade, my friend plays a weird utlity rogue/wizard. Right now we are almost lvl 4, currently lvl 3, i'm fully into warblade and my friend is into 2 Rogue/1 Wizard. The DM is a very good friend of both of us and we all played with each other many times in the past. My problem is that my friend, the rogue, has "sticky hands", things seem to find itself into his possesion. He goes off by himself to scout, which he does a good job of and dispatching enemies as well sometimes. The problem is the fact that he'll try to pocket as much gold as possible without us knowing, and steal as much items from enemies for himself. Now this guy seems greedy, but he's REALLY greedy. He charges me and a npc helper for healing when we ask to use his potions. (which is fine) but then when im at 0 hp, instead of healing me on the spot, he actually searches me for money and pockets some gold. I didn't want to attack him on the spot but I didn't want to not do anything so I just called out for help weakly. My npc guard guy came by and saw him "healing" me, which he did at the end. Now I'm a lawful neutral warblade in the service of the imperial army in this homebrew campaign, and I usually enforce the law. One time when he was knocked out, we searched him because we knew he had stolen something from the evidence room (military stuff..) and we returned everything he stole. So now he has a personal vendetta against me! I think he may be evil or may not be, our DM is very sneaky about revealing things, which is great, if only I knew. He could be chaotic neutral for all i know. Basically recently he went off by himself while we were occupied and assassinated a necromancer type guy (a mini boss) with a lucky critical sneak attack from range and looted the body. He found two rings which I know OOC-wise but my player doesn't yet. Our Party follows the "deductable system" where the players have to pay for items found with their earned gold, the one suggested in the PHB. Well, I mean he did kill the guy on his own and got the items. But our party was fair and still shared our loot from the other monsters with him. This is just the beginning as he's always trying to open chests and search things, and then when he finds them, he immediately tries to slight of hand it. I feel if I let this continue further, the wealth and item distribution might become unbalanced. So what can I do? I mean I don't want my friend getting ****** at what I could do to his character which is: Plan A: Knock him out, put mark of justice on him and his cat (in case he uses his familiar to get items for him? I'm not sure) Plan B: Keep on playing like normal and hope to god that our party could catch him in the act, but like usual we wrestle the items away he keeps the extra gold and this frustration cycles over and over again. Plan C: I kill him, he rerolls char. :D Plan D: ??? Hahah..its interesting..help! EDIT: forgot to mention DM likes to play very neutral, i ran by my ideas with him and he basically said that I could do those, but the rogue could do other "things" and that the results were ultimately up to both of us, he's allowing the MArk of justice but at his own rules. The mark is permanant unless using wish, break enchantment, etc but really there's no immobilization part and the curse only goes off 75%-80% of the time.
happy_fuzzy 12-11-07, 12:07 AM	Disrespecting property is usually evil or at least chaotic neutral so I would be straight with the Dm and demand this character's aignment, its usually a bad idea to play with hidden alignments (cough* backstab cough*), if its one of the 2 listed then give the rogue a chance to reform and steal when the party needs him/her to or make him an evil sticky finger NPC, unless the Dm allows all aligments, if so arbitrarily snap at the rogue's thievry and unleash you inner ToB demon.
Salla 12-11-07, 12:23 AM	Next time your party is in a settlement of decent size, part ways with the rogue. "You're a conniving, swindling, self-centered tool, and we need someone we can trust to watch our backs, not pick our pockets and rob us blind." Your friend can then create a character who knows the meaning of the word 'team'.
Roog 12-11-07, 12:24 AM	Now I'm a lawful neutral warblade in the service of the imperial army in this homebrew campaign, and I usually enforce the law. Do you have the legal right/responsibility to enforce the law? Have you warned him about breaking the law? If you do then next time you have a good opportunity e.g. like you had before One time when he was knocked out, we searched him because we knew he had stolen something from the evidence room (military stuff..) and we returned everything he stole. treat him like any other criminal, don't cut him a break because he is a PC - he's had one free pass, how many times can you ignore criminal activity? (Unless, of course you have a group convention against PvP, in which you have an OOG problem rather than an IG one, and it should be solved OOG)
mailman 12-11-07, 01:09 AM	Do you have the legal right/responsibility to enforce the law? Have you warned him about breaking the law? Yes I do have the legal right/responsibility to enforce the law, but only if i have evidence, kind of like the police, basically catching him in the act. He might bluff his way out (which he has done before) saying he found the items and was returning them Let me also make it clear that he has helped us several times before and has some teamwork, its just that his greed gets the better of him and I guess leaving him on his own could work, he's not very strong and I guess there would be not that much of a problem in the party if we hired a npc rogue that was good. btw thanks for the replies, anymore questions? or other ideas might be cool too...
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 01:10 AM	Unless, of course you have a group convention against PvP, in which you have an OOG problem rather than an IG one, and it should be solved OOG There's usually a fine line between 1.) somebody (and that's usually what they end up as) "staying in-character" while nursing a couple bruised egos and 2.) having fun make-believing you're someone else for a few hours and a little implausible character cooperation going on. I've never seen PvP create anything but what-the-:censored: looks, reactions, and thread posts between players. Has your DM, Mailman? I'd ask him.
mailman 12-11-07, 01:14 AM	There's usually a fine line between "staying in-character" and having fun make-believing you're someone else for a few hours. I've never seen PvP create anything but what-the-:censored: looks, reactions, and thread posts between players. Has your DM, Mailman? I'd ask him. My DM is the type to play things out to the most realistic degree possible because the story arc we are playing is very open. He doesn't mind me attacking and most likely killing my friend's character. However, unless I justify it, I will lose alignment and possibly lose levels. And I would like to avoid doing that. Thanks for the replies anything else guys? maybe i should just leave the rogue, but he's very useful sometimes and our party is pretty small. (warblade, rogue/wizard, fighter, and a warlock) EDIT: Also if we lock him up, it might only be for a month or two, or he might try breaking out....
FinalSonicX 12-11-07, 01:22 AM	Hey, this is the DM posting. I personally have no problem with him killing the rogue, but unless he had a legitimate reason I'd have some negative consequences like a loss of levels because obviously PvP isn't productive towards building up role playing between well-established characters. it's an especially important decision to make because this campaign has no raise dead or any other way to get a character back from the dead (well there's one magic ring that has a one time use ability but that wouldn't apply to the rogue.) ultimately I'm leaving it up to the warblade in what he wants to do, but like I said I'd like to try to avoid PvP if possible. any suggestions for me to balance his character aside from the ones we've posted? I would like to try to contain this problem of sticky fingers but I would also like to preserve the rogue's rogue-ish nature and leaving him the freedom to approach a combat encounter as he wishes.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 01:27 AM	However, unless I justify it, I will lose alignment and possibly lose levels. And I would like to avoid doing that. EDIT: Also if we lock him up, it might only be for a month or two, or he might try breaking out....You're character is LN. If you know, what alignment(s) are the other characters in the party? What's tying your party together? Perhaps you could strike up a conversation IG with your party members and create some type of contract within the group defining the rules and how the treasure and winnings would be split - and the penalty for breaking the contract. Think of it as an "adventuring company" instead of a "party."
navar100 12-11-07, 01:42 AM	Hey, this is the DM posting. I personally have no problem with him killing the rogue, but unless he had a legitimate reason I'd have some negative consequences like a loss of levels because obviously PvP isn't productive towards building up role playing between well-established characters. it's an especially important decision to make because this campaign has no raise dead or any other way to get a character back from the dead (well there's one magic ring that has a one time use ability but that wouldn't apply to the rogue.) ultimately I'm leaving it up to the warblade in what he wants to do, but like I said I'd like to try to avoid PvP if possible. any suggestions for me to balance his character aside from the ones we've posted? I would like to try to contain this problem of sticky fingers but I would also like to preserve the rogue's rogue-ish nature and leaving him the freedom to approach a combat encounter as he wishes. But it's ok for the rogue to steal from the party? This why Real Jerks like this exist. DMs enable them. I have a suggestion: tell the rogue player to knock it off or play a new character who will behave or scram.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 01:51 AM	Speaking to FinalSonicX: ...because obviously PvP isn't productive towards building up role playing between well-established characters... I whole-heartedly agree. I've been there. "Sure! You can play a blackguard..." I guess it depends how you define PvP. I, myself, define it rather loosely as players taking actions that would do harm to players. I look at it this way: I'd rather them enjoy themselves than create a really good story. The application of my DM'ing philosophy has to be pretty malleable, though, lest I start leading someone by the nose or ruin their character concept. If you're uncomfortable with the character conflict, place a situation where the rogue does it to himself. For example, have someone come looking for something that was stolen with the ability to see through him. This would even lend itself to the other players as role-playing material.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 01:57 AM	But it's ok for the rogue to steal from the party? This why Real Jerks like this exist. DMs enable them. I have a suggestion: tell the rogue player to knock it off or play a new character who will behave or scram. That said, some groups like to play a different game than others. I say, "No. Don't steal the stuff off of your dead buddy." FinalSonicX chooses not to limit his players' options like that & that's fine. The misconception is probably coming from the natural thought that I'd be upset if I were Mailman, but he's just asking for role-playing advice for his character, not how to get back at his friend.
kuonji 12-11-07, 01:59 AM	It's been said many times around these boards, you don't mess with the people who watch your back. Hording treasure that could benefit the party and stealing from party members is hardly a team building mechanic. I second navar100's suggestion to tell the player OOC to knock it off and join the team. That said, some groups like to play a different game than others. I say, "No. Don't steal the stuff off of your dead buddy." FinalSonicX chooses not to limit his players' options like that & that's fine. I disagree. Sure it's fine, if the players want to play that type of game. If it's just one player acting like a jerk and stealing from the others, then I'd say that's not fine.
FinalSonicX 12-11-07, 02:26 AM	this is what is keeping the party together: the warblade and fighter are brothers in the imperial guard. they're being sent all around the empire to solve the issues that are considered too specialized for your average guardsman to handle and too small (or too dangerous if there was a leak in information) for the more capable warriors. it's actually sort of a complicated relationship between them and the empire. the rogue was hired early on in the campaign to help them deal with some raids that had been going on at some outlying farms. they found that his unique skills were quite useful (and he was excellent at role playing and talking his way through situations) so the imperial guard agreed to hire him as a paid mercenary. He follows the party around nowadays mostly just because he runs into all sorts of situations to find good loot (which unfortunately he sometimes manages to swindle from the other players). the warlock is around because they needed a little bit of extra backup for this particular assignment they're on, and they thought that his cooking was top notch :D that contract Idea is an excellent one. I might just have to use that! of course, the hard part will be trying to convince him that it's in his best interests... as for the stealing bit: so far his stealing has been very reasonable from a game balance standpoint, he has mostly only stolen from NPCs or maybe 5-10 gold coins from the player characters when no one was looking. It was only in the last session that he decided to steal 2 rings from one of the monsters and not tell anyone. if I had kept him from stealing anything by some odd deus ex machina, then that would be limiting his freedom to do as he pleases. obviously there are consequences, but I'm not going to reach down with some sort of hand of god and just smack the hell out of him, and I think PvP is a bit too rash of a decision. any NPC intervention at this point in time during the adventure would seem out of place because they're out in the wilderness in an area recently devastated by invaders. the area is completely devoid of any imperial presence, except of course for the enemies. I think the contract is a good idea but does anyone have any ideas on how to make it seem like a fair deal?
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 02:45 AM	Here's a couple real-world examples of pirate/privateer articles (agreements to go pirate people): http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/pirates/articles_new.html With a little working, these might provide some ideas.
Etarnon 12-11-07, 02:58 AM	if I had kept him from stealing anything by some odd deus ex machina, then that would be limiting his freedom to do as he pleases. obviously there are consequences, but I'm not going to reach down with some sort of hand of god and just smack the hell out of him, and I think PvP is a bit too rash of a decision. any NPC intervention at this point in time during the adventure would seem out of place because they're out in the wilderness in an area recently devastated by invaders. the area is completely devoid of any imperial presence, except of course for the enemies. So, the DM won't limit him, and the DM is saying PVP vs him is too harsh. Thus, it continues. Or did I miss something? Looks to me like the Players write it off as "the devil in your pants that you know", or bludgeon the thief. Stern talking to, it's beyond that. If the DM is gonna allow the player to steal from another then the recipient should be allowed to use force to retrieve his goods.
cheezgrater 12-11-07, 03:31 AM	Is it considered PvP to coat some gold coins in contact poison and then stick them in some easily-picked pockets? Sovereign Glue?
Roog 12-11-07, 03:49 AM	With the kind of mission your characters are on the warblade and fighter are brothers in the imperial guard. they're being sent all around the empire to solve the issues that are considered too specialized for your average guardsman to handle and too small (or too dangerous if there was a leak in information) for the more capable warriors. it's actually sort of a complicated relationship between them and the empire. (emphasis mine) He follows the party around nowadays mostly just because he runs into all sorts of situations to find good loot (which unfortunately he sometimes manages to swindle from the other players). how can you keep someone you do not trust around? How much sensitive stuff does he know already? (From the characters PoV) You don't trust him so... If he already knows a reasonable amount of sensitive information, your choices seem to be: (A) He swears some sort of official oath to your masters, placing him in imperial service. (B) He is locked up somewhere secure (if the setting is a nice one) (C) He ends up dead. and if he does not know a reasonable amount of sensitive information, your choices seem to be: as above, without (C) but with (D) Stop traveling with him I think the contract is a good idea but does anyone have any ideas on how to make it seem like a fair deal? Offer him a choice of (A), (B), or (C) with the contract as a bonus if he chooses (A).
SokenzanMarauder 12-11-07, 04:46 AM	as for the stealing bit: so far his stealing has been very reasonable from a game balance standpoint, he has mostly only stolen from NPCs or maybe 5-10 gold coins from the player characters when no one was looking. The point really isn't that he only stole five or ten gold pieces from his team mates, no. The point is that he did it in the first place. If I were a player in this group I'd walk. The lack of respect (from the rogue's player) is just irritating.
Eldritch_Id 12-11-07, 04:57 AM	Is it considered PvP to coat some gold coins in contact poison and then stick them in some easily-picked pockets? Sovereign Glue? A co-worker at an old job of mine did that to another co-worker stealing out of the take-a-penny-leave-a-penny cup! He glued a quarter (big prize!) to the floor. She actually kicked at the thing until it came up! Then she noticed us laughing at her. No reaction really - not much left to be ashamed of after you're known to go to the company picnics to get the left-overs! :rofl: *sigh* Good times... By the way, he didn't try the poison part...as far as you know...
gixanthrax 12-11-07, 07:57 AM	Mhm, sticky fingers is often consiedered to be some kind of rogue stereotype. a stereotype i quite like, and in my parties I'm always the rogue. If i have the chance to aquire some extra wealth, why not? We don't use this " buy of items from the group" stuff so i consider it to be legitimate to aquire my wealth in other ways, because magic weapons and protecticve item nearly always go to the meleers, scrolls to cleric/wizard and the other loot is sold and shared on equal terms. Until last session we didn't evenhave a fund to dfinanciate wands of cure light wounds or the like, but it was always mine that got used up... I mean I do not keep everything for me, say if we find ´5 Platinum and 500 gold, i will most likely keep the 5 PP and put the 500 GP to our hoard. I especially do so if, as mentioned before the loot mainly consists of things equally distributed among the others, and on the next occasion where I find a sum of money i will keep my share before dividing it equally among all members of the party(including myself). A little different is the situation with our party ranger. At our last adventure that lastet for 2 evenings, we managed to cash an overal of 1000 gp which were divided equally among all 6 PCs. (Because there was not that much loot i didn't even keep the small ruby worth 50GP i had managed to palm) . but at the beginning of our next adventure theranger died from a lucky crit of an ogre, and upon searching his carcass we found 300 PP which he had found in the previous adventure and notz told us about. And 2 ruby worh 500GP each from the adventure before...
mailman 12-12-07, 12:31 AM	Ok after reading these posts and my DM's post which is pretty right on, I still have not a clue where to begin. There's about 50 options I could do, all of which might result in my friend being unhappy, me losing alignment and level, or a bucket load of wasteful rolls on something that could be resolved with a sword in the chest. So I think my best choice would be to either Mark of Justice him when he's unconscious, offer him a contract so that he thinks he'll be getting a good deal... Point being is that I'm attempting to recruit more people to the game in hopes that they play good characters that can essentailly lessen the rogue's harmful effects to the party. Now I understand many out there who would just leave his ass in the dust, which is what I would do, had he not be a significant character with sensitive information. The fact is that my Dm is attempting to limit PvP but still have a very open game where almost any action can occur. Wait..I see how that sentence is wrong, he's attempting to limit PvP yet he doesn't stop the rogue from stealing, so I'm forced to do nothing essentially. To the DM, the stealing is very amusing and thus anything I do will result in me getting the short end of the stick, which is very likely. I'm very tempted to just kill the rogue, get the alignment change, blame it on the corrupted influence in me, and just be like "oh i feeeel so much regert", visit a church, atone for the crime and be a very regretful warblade for a long time in the game. All in the name of "good story and role playing experience"..... karma for the rogue, what comes around goes around
navar100 12-12-07, 03:16 AM	this is what is keeping the party together: the warblade and fighter are brothers in the imperial guard. they're being sent all around the empire to solve the issues that are considered too specialized for your average guardsman to handle and too small (or too dangerous if there was a leak in information) for the more capable warriors. it's actually sort of a complicated relationship between them and the empire. the rogue was hired early on in the campaign to help them deal with some raids that had been going on at some outlying farms. they found that his unique skills were quite useful (and he was excellent at role playing and talking his way through situations) so the imperial guard agreed to hire him as a paid mercenary. He follows the party around nowadays mostly just because he runs into all sorts of situations to find good loot (which unfortunately he sometimes manages to swindle from the other players). the warlock is around because they needed a little bit of extra backup for this particular assignment they're on, and they thought that his cooking was top notch :D that contract Idea is an excellent one. I might just have to use that! of course, the hard part will be trying to convince him that it's in his best interests... as for the stealing bit: so far his stealing has been very reasonable from a game balance standpoint, he has mostly only stolen from NPCs or maybe 5-10 gold coins from the player characters when no one was looking. It was only in the last session that he decided to steal 2 rings from one of the monsters and not tell anyone. if I had kept him from stealing anything by some odd deus ex machina, then that would be limiting his freedom to do as he pleases. obviously there are consequences, but I'm not going to reach down with some sort of hand of god and just smack the hell out of him, and I think PvP is a bit too rash of a decision. any NPC intervention at this point in time during the adventure would seem out of place because they're out in the wilderness in an area recently devastated by invaders. the area is completely devoid of any imperial presence, except of course for the enemies. I think the contract is a good idea but does anyone have any ideas on how to make it seem like a fair deal? Stealing from the party is never "reasonable". By enabling his "reasonable" stealing from the party, he learned he can get away with it. Therefore, he decided to take the next step and stole "a little bit more", yet now you are reluctant to "punish" him for being a bit "unreasonable" because it would hinder his "freedom to do as he pleases", thus the warblade is suffering the consequences, and you will "punish" that player for "doing as he pleases" if he acts like a warblade against the rogue. My sympathy to the OP. Been there. Done that. Left the gaming group.
Mock26 12-12-07, 03:28 AM	Talk to the player and tell him to cut it out. While he may have a so-called right to play the character of his choice he also has an obligation to ensure that his actions don't detract from anyone else's enjoyment while playing the also. You should also tell him that if this were real there is no way on Oerth that your character would continue to adventure with him. It is one thing to overlook a thief taking a little extra money when he disarms a trap (afterall he's the one taking all the risk and should be compensated a bit for that) but it is completely unacceptable for him to rob you while you are on the verge of death, especially while you are conscious and he does plan on healing you! (That's just completely idiotic on both the part of the player and the character.) Tell him to cut it out or tone it down (though stealing from you while you're down has to stop, there is no toning that down). If he doesn't then work secretly with the DM to put a bounty out on this character's head or turn him in to the town guard when he steals in a city. There is no way a character would put up with this crap from someone, especially someone who at some point will have your life in their hands. ======================================== = Stealing from the party is never "reasonable". By enabling his "reasonable" stealing from the party, he learned he can get away with it. Therefore, he decided to take the next step and stole "a little bit more", The maturity level of the player has a lot to do with this. Mature players generally won't get into petty squabbles over a imaginary coins written on a peice of paper. Yes, everything on that piece of paper is important to us and we take our game seriously, but we understand that it is still just a game. So long as others aren't being excessively greedy or stupid or doing anything to ruin our enjoyment of the game then what's the big deal? In the group that I run the player who runs the only thief in the group also keeps track of the treasure. And he skims off of the top. It's only a tiny bit, usually less than 1%, mostly just the few extra coins that don't divide up evenly, and sometimes a shiny bauble that he found while opening something up, but the group doesn't care. He is playing his character, he never flaunts it, he doesn't steal directly from the other characters, everyone looks at it as a little extra for taking extra chances, and he doesn't disrupt the game or in any way detract from anyone else's enjoyment of the game. The key, though, is knowing that a tiny bit doesn't make a difference and knowing that once items are divided up they are off limits. There is a big difference between taking that extra silver piece when you divide 3,001 silver pieces between 5 characters and taking one silver piece directly out of your cleric's belt pouch. There is a big difference between opening a drawer that had four very deadly traps on it and secretly palming a vial that is in there before anyone sees it and stealing that vial out of the barbarian's backpack.
Roog 12-12-07, 04:52 AM	@mailman Just a question about what you said regarding the situation My DM is the type to play things out to the most realistic degree possible because the story arc we are playing is very open. He doesn't mind me attacking and most likely killing my friend's character. However, unless I justify it, I will lose alignment and possibly lose levels. Why would you loose levels? Your GM said (when talking about the rogue)... obviously there are consequences, but I'm not going to reach down with some sort of hand of god and just smack the hell out of him, So why would he punish your character with level loss for killing the rogue?
mailman 12-12-07, 07:28 PM	to Roog: huh I guess you're right, the way he posted I guess I wouldn't lose a level although if i killed him in cold blood it would be alignment loss. And hmmm I kinda talked to the rogue character today and he seems reluctant to change his ways, so I'm going to probably have to find a way to deal with it IG. It's not AS bad as it sounds but I think the point is I don't want to let it get out of hand since the "sticky fingers" has been rising, the point is like he's allowed to palm a couple coins when he finds treasure in a chest he disarmed a trap, he's allowed to keep maybe some minor things off a monster he recon/killed. But like one of the poster's said, its another thing to charge your party members healing for tanking monsters and definately from taking gold directly from them. Not to mention taking magic items that could benefit other party members and keeping it for himself.
FinalSonicX 12-12-07, 08:09 PM	The only reason I would penalize the warblade for killing the rogue is because I feel that not only is it the easy way out, but it just doesn't allow for the story to progress in a positive way, where the party builds relationships (be they good or bad). I'd prefer it that if the warblade were to ever simply murder the rogue, he would at least have better justification than "he charges me for something I should get for free and he steals stuff". keep in mind that his character in the game has no idea that the rogue has palmed any items (aside from the ones he stole from NPCs). so to have the warblade wake up one day and just kill the rogue in cold blood, not only would it be very odd, but it would also be completely irrational. I could accept the warblade severely punishing the rogue, and I can deal with the warblade beating the rogue to within an inch of his life and then putting a mark of justice on him, but killing him is not a rational solution to the problem. in real life, that warblade would not just kill the rogue to deal with his problem. especially not in the situation they're currently in. the solution of just killing the rogue is the "gaming" solution, where the ends justify the means and so what if the reasoning behind the actions is nonsensical? theft doesn't justify murder, especially when the warblade isn't even aware of the extent of his theft. but like I said, I try not to limit my player's actions. I'm not going to grind the campaign to a halt or say "ok let's redo this" if PvP occurs, but I'll try to prevent the players from just taking the easy way out and forcing their party to all fit in a nice homogenous mold by killing anyone they disagree with. I wont reach down with my DM powers and prevent PvP from taking place, and I won't save anyone should it break out, but I'd like to think that there's some sort of consequences for killing. without any consequences like 1 level loss (which isn't as major as it sounds because all the character in the campaign if they reroll start at level 1, as do newcomers. so really all it does is sort of level the playing field a bit) then players will just kill anyone who disagrees with them (especially at the lower levels where most players are expendable). In my homebrew setting, there are no raise deads, or any way to bring back the dead, except for a few rare magical items or ceremonies. death is very final, so I'd prefer it if the players had to think twice before drawing their steel. also, 10 gold in my campaign is more like 5 gold in traditional 3.5 if I had no consequences for uncharacteristic PvP (the party is currently in the wilderness where they could just claim he was dragged off by the invaders and no one would be the wiser), then the strongest character in combat (in this case, the warblade) could simply repeatedly kill any character that was rolled which conflicted with his goals and beliefs. Essentially by this method, the warblade could force the party to either homogenize in alignments and goals, or he could kill the campaign because the other players would simply be tired of dealing with his constant killing. I don't want a big happy party of people who get along like the brady bunch, I want a group of people who act like they should. if a person is selfish and greedy by nature, then that's just how he/she is. If a player wants to kill the selfish greedy person without justification and suffer the 1 level loss, then so be it. if the person can justify to me a logical reason as to why his character would want to kill the other character, then there will be no level loss (though there may be an alignment shift). at the current moment, the justification simply isn't there. and the last thing I'd like to say is that the situation isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. this has only become a major issue in the last session, and that was because the rogue moved ahead and killed the "miniboss" by himself while the rest of the party dealt with the hordes of monsters and other enemies. he then looted the corpse and palmed the two magical rings (one of which was expressly intended for him, and the other was neutral but would benefit him the most). if the warblade makes a successful spot check to see the rings on his fingers, then he can confront the player in the game about them. I'm not going to bend the rules of the game universe or allow the party to dissolve into total chaos (and potentially kill the campaign) just because one player thinks that it is unfair that the rogue is palming items and coins as well as getting a cut of party treasure. D&D IMO isn't just about running around killing monsters and getting treasure, it's about interacting with the world as well as each other.
Legdiwena 12-12-07, 08:35 PM	He stole from a party acting at the behest of the Imperial Guard. Either put him in prison or have the soldiers kick him out of group (IG).
Farmer_Tom_Cotton 12-12-07, 08:58 PM	Ummm.... a Lawful anything "hired" a thief? Seems strange. OK the rogue/wizard is pretending to be lawful enough for you to hire him. So you do. then he starts stealing. Still fine. You, OOC start to worry about it. Why? Here is where the DM should maintain the balance. Anything stolen can be recognized as stolen. So the rogue/wizard starts stealing and using stolen goods. So someone recognizes said stolen stuff. In comes the sheriff to sort things out. (In one situation we looted bandits brought the stuff into town and the town thought we were the bandits.) If you are worried about character wealth mention it to the DM. It is sort of his job to sort that out. You haven't started leveraging your skills. Have the rogue's contract include magic. (How a rogue/wizard has healing to sell seems strange.) If he breaks that contract he has to pay. If, in character, your character seems to be doing more, then tell the ROGUE/WIZARD he has to pay to to watch the HIM sleep TO GET BACK SPELLS. You're group have chosen the selfish path (neutral or evil). So you can't fault someone being selfish. Be a good alignment and cooperate if you want something else. In character you can't fault a thief (who has to look out for themselves) for stealing. It is sort of the job description. You DO NOT have to care as a LN character if the guy you hired for his skills lives. You can actually send him in to weaken the bad guys. Then go in and clean up. So here is the situation "We think orcs are in the cave we will give you 100gp to scout the whole cave. If you don't give us a complete scout (not including secret passages) we can withhold half of the money." "Half up front, half when we get out." Not being a cooperative party is not bad. You have to negotiate. If your thief is going in alone to a certain degree. Then they should get a bigger reward. If you are not aware enough to make the thief respect you he/she should stab you in the back and steal your stuff too. Rogue and not "good rogue" and "Sticky Hand" should be expected unless you have high spot skills.
FinalSonicX 12-12-07, 09:20 PM	Ummm.... a Lawful anything "hired" a thief? Seems strange. the characters didn't know he was a thief at the time. they simply assumed that he was good at scouting out positions (which he proved time and time again in the first few sessions). it wasn't until he had already been relatively well-accepted into the party that they realized he was a thief. also, his "healing" isn't really healing. he simply takes the gold off of unconscious characters and uses their potions for them (he sometimes refers to it as a service fee). He also charges an inflated price when a party member wishes to buy one of his own personal potions. both of these fit his character and are relatively fair. the prices he charges to buy the potions are a bit high (but is completely avoidable by the PCs) and the money he takes as a "service fee" is nominal.
Legdiwena 12-12-07, 09:25 PM	Anyone charging me for my own potions is asking for a quick execution.
1red13 12-12-07, 09:46 PM	He really is just hiding behind the fact that he is a player character not just some dude who stole your stuff It is just common sense. Would you hang around with someone who would directly or indirectly steal from you. I'm certain it would be a resounding no, and you wouldn't have too many kind words for them. Putting that aside what can you do. - confiscate all his goods and say you can't be sure which goods are his and which are stolen There is some such law in RL - demand he make restitution to the people he has offended not by repaying the amount he has taken but must replac 2x, 3x or more. - OOC Tell him not to be a douche bag this is a cooperative endeavor. If you expect my character to watch your characters back in battle you better change your tune. If you don't change your thieving ways i'll change my battle tactics, fair is fair. - Tell his character if anything goes missing from now on he's getting the blame. So not only had he better not be stealing from the party he better make sure other thieves keep their distance.
CrimsonDeath 12-12-07, 10:04 PM	Hey, this is the DM posting. [...] any suggestions for me to balance his character aside from the ones we've posted? Drop a cursed item in the next treasure pile he decides to loot by himself. and the last thing I'd like to say is that the situation isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. this has only become a major issue in the last session, and that was because the rogue moved ahead and killed the "miniboss" by himself while the rest of the party dealt with the hordes of monsters and other enemies. So, while his three allies were in deadly combat, he abandoned them to go exploring? I don't think I'd travel with this guy farther than the next town, but maybe that's just me. (And while killing him over suspicion isn't reasonable, asking him to hit the road is justifiable.)
mailman 12-12-07, 10:21 PM	To 1red13: Thank so much for your advice, not only are they fair and just but practical and won't cause too much problem. I can see that you've probably dealt with this problem before and I thank you for giving me this advice. Thanks also to the others who have spoken up for me! Anyway I have decided that this thread has had its use, you can still post if you want your opinion to be heard but I believe my course of action is to: 1. Follow 1red13's steps in preventing any more stealing 2. If the rogue continues to steal from us, I will beat him unconscious and mark him with the mark of justice 3. And if that fails and he manages to keep stealing, i will kick him out of the group.
Zeffienes 12-12-07, 10:48 PM	Wait, a service fee to have someone use your own potion on you while you lay bleeding on the ground? Does he not realize that the damage was taken by the warblade and that if he were not there he would be taking it instead? How about this: You, the melee fighter, charge a service fee per encounter per monster. If he fails to meet the service fee, let him fight every monster on his own. I am quite sure the service fee for fighting toe to toe with a deadly monster/enemy is far greater than picking up a potion and shoving it down someone's throat. There are plenty of service fees out there. Have one for putting out the torch that is illuminating the rogue's concealment/cover. Have one for flanking. Have one for helping, since the rogue's selfish enough to ask for money for helping. There are ways for making a person's life very, VERY miserable. He's doing it to you. I really have to fault the DM here. "No PvP" isn't exactly being carried out - stealing from another party member is quite PvP. The warblade has every right to retaliate, which means that PvP is happening, only that the DM is stemming the other half of it. And apparently he is allowed to do mark of justice, etc., meaning that he will nonetheless carry out PvP. Nothing good will come out of this. There's a logical fallacy here somewhere.
BrianMc223 12-12-07, 11:21 PM	Interesting thought: Coat a few coins in Golden Ice from the BoED. Contact poison dc 14 initial damage 1d6 + victums cha mod dex secondary damage 2d6 dex. The interesting thing is that it only effects things with evil alignment. It might help you figure out wether he is evil or just a jerk. (And it just happens to be dex damage.)
navar100 12-13-07, 02:20 AM	Talk to the player and tell him to cut it out. While he may have a so-called right to play the character of his choice he also has an obligation to ensure that his actions don't detract from anyone else's enjoyment while playing the also. You should also tell him that if this were real there is no way on Oerth that your character would continue to adventure with him. It is one thing to overlook a thief taking a little extra money when he disarms a trap (afterall he's the one taking all the risk and should be compensated a bit for that) but it is completely unacceptable for him to rob you while you are on the verge of death, especially while you are conscious and he does plan on healing you! (That's just completely idiotic on both the part of the player and the character.) Tell him to cut it out or tone it down (though stealing from you while you're down has to stop, there is no toning that down). If he doesn't then work secretly with the DM to put a bounty out on this character's head or turn him in to the town guard when he steals in a city. There is no way a character would put up with this crap from someone, especially someone who at some point will have your life in their hands. ======================================== = The maturity level of the player has a lot to do with this. Mature players generally won't get into petty squabbles over a imaginary coins written on a peice of paper. Yes, everything on that piece of paper is important to us and we take our game seriously, but we understand that it is still just a game. So long as others aren't being excessively greedy or stupid or doing anything to ruin our enjoyment of the game then what's the big deal? In the group that I run the player who runs the only thief in the group also keeps track of the treasure. And he skims off of the top. It's only a tiny bit, usually less than 1%, mostly just the few extra coins that don't divide up evenly, and sometimes a shiny bauble that he found while opening something up, but the group doesn't care. He is playing his character, he never flaunts it, he doesn't steal directly from the other characters, everyone looks at it as a little extra for taking extra chances, and he doesn't disrupt the game or in any way detract from anyone else's enjoyment of the game. The key, though, is knowing that a tiny bit doesn't make a difference and knowing that once items are divided up they are off limits. There is a big difference between taking that extra silver piece when you divide 3,001 silver pieces between 5 characters and taking one silver piece directly out of your cleric's belt pouch. There is a big difference between opening a drawer that had four very deadly traps on it and secretly palming a vial that is in there before anyone sees it and stealing that vial out of the barbarian's backpack. No, there is no difference. Stealing from the party is stealing from the party. Sure, the rogue took a risk disarming a trap. The warblade takes a risk going toe-to-toe against the evil monster. The wizard takes a risk casting his spells and hopes he doesn't run out. The druid takes a risk wildshpaing and going toe-to-toe. The clerics spends his resources keeping the party alive and sometimes going toe-to-toe. The party is in it together. There is no excuse stealing from the party.
Roog 12-13-07, 03:39 AM	The party is in it together. There is no excuse stealing from the party. There is one good excuse for stealing from the party. When the group of players are OK with characters stealing from each other, then it is OK. (Of course, that only answers the question of whether it is fine for a player to have a character who steals from the party (OOG morality), not the question of whether it is fine for a character to steal from the party (IG morality).)
kelvinaw273 12-13-07, 09:11 AM	Hey, this is the DM posting. I personally have no problem with him killing the rogue, but unless he had a legitimate reason I'd have some negative consequences like a loss of levels because obviously PvP isn't productive towards building up role playing between well-established characters. it's an especially important decision to make because this campaign has no raise dead or any other way to get a character back from the dead (well there's one magic ring that has a one time use ability but that wouldn't apply to the rogue.) ultimately I'm leaving it up to the warblade in what he wants to do, but like I said I'd like to try to avoid PvP if possible. any suggestions for me to balance his character aside from the ones we've posted? I would like to try to contain this problem of sticky fingers but I would also like to preserve the rogue's rogue-ish nature and leaving him the freedom to approach a combat encounter as he wishes. Sorry mate, you already have allowed PvP. PvP isn't just when PCs fight each other, it's when any PC acts directly against the interests of another character - the rogue going through somebody's pockets as they lie helpless on 0hp (and able to see them do it!) counts as PvP. The rogue pocketing items the party needs to share out is PvP. You have allowed PvP, in fact you have endorsed it. Don't get sanctimonious now the results of your actions are casting a shadow on the game with all the other players resorting to PvP. Obviously, the majority of players are not happy with the situation you have allowed to develop. If you want to stop PvP, you have to stop it now, or soon you won't have a game. I have given your players advice below based on you continuing to do nothing. to the OP: This is as much a player problem as a character problem. Just have a friendly chat with the rogue's player to the effect that his style of play is causing frustration and spoiling the game for everyone else. Nobody would have minded ten gold here and there, but he is extracting the urine big time now, so you cannot tolerate this any longer. Any more stealing, and the other characters will kick him out of the party, and he can shove the bluff and sleight of hand rolls where the sun does not shine. If he follows your characters and tries to rob them, you'll kill his character. If he tries it again with another character, you will refuse to play with him. If he whines tell him bluntly that it's up to him: toe the line or play with the DM on his own. If he starts sneaking out with the DM to handle what he's doing rather than doing it blatantly in front of you, you'll assume he is conniving against the party whether he is or not, and act accordingly. This kind of childish behavior is what destroys gaming groups time and again. The rest of you only have to walk out of one session to make your point to both the DM and this player. I refer you to the comment bellow by pres_man ... The golden rule is thus: THOU SHALT NOT DIS THOSE THAT WATCH THY BACK.
MagicButterfly 12-13-07, 12:27 PM	I'll say that I can sympathize with the DM choosing to stay out of this as much as possible, especially if he's friends with all involved. One would hope the players could resolve what is (primarily) a player-to-player issue without the need for a DM referee. However: so to have the warblade wake up one day and just kill the rogue in cold blood, not only would it be very odd, but it would also be completely irrational. I could accept the warblade severely punishing the rogue, and I can deal with the warblade beating the rogue to within an inch of his life and then putting a mark of justice on him, but killing him is not a rational solution to the problem. in real life, that warblade would not just kill the rogue to deal with his problem. especially not in the situation they're currently in. the solution of just killing the rogue is the "gaming" solution, where the ends justify the means and so what if the reasoning behind the actions is nonsensical? And: theft doesn't justify murder, especially when the warblade isn't even aware of the extent of his theft As the DM, you don't judge the rationale of the player's action. The player controls the character, the DM arbitrates the outcome. I don't understand, and judging from other responses, I'm not alone, why the OP would lose a level by performing any sort of action. I could agree that it would violate their alignment, but a level loss is something else entirely. Not wanting the "hand of God" to smack the rogue for stealing, but having the "hand of God" smack the OP for dealing with it is inconsistent. Also, who are you to tell the PC what his character does and does not consider proper punishment for transgressions? Perhaps YOU don't consider theft to be a capital offense, perhaps I don't consider theft to be a capital offense, but the only opinion that matters is the OP's character's. Maybe he's fanatical about the law, and considers even minor trangressions punishable as such. Maybe he considers stealing from a travelling companion to be a breach of contract (they did hire him after all), and one that puts the entire mission in jeopardy. Maybe he considers theft from one of the emperor's agents theft from the emperor himself, and as such the punishment should be swift and harsh. I'd consider all of those perfect justifications from a LN character in punishing even a small theft. I think that by letting the rogue steal from the party like that, and by threatening sanctions against players who offer reprisals, you're showing favoritism--the rogue's actions are justifiably "in character", although that justification seems arbitrary to me. So you're letting the rogue, and only the rogue, do PVP. Although I would agree that killing the character is not the way to go, if only from an OOC point of view. That sort of thing rarely, if ever, helps a situation out. If after talking to him, he still doesn't care, then I'd suggest you just go your separate ways (either in character, or find a new group). Beating him up and putting a mark of justice on him will probably just make him find more creative ways to screw you over. My initial reaction to that idea is that it will cause more problems than it will solve.
1red13 12-13-07, 09:31 PM	The one question i would pose to the dm and op is where is the sticky fingered rogue keeping all his illgotten loot. Most often adventurers have the bulk of their wealth on them as they are widely travelled and need access to their goods. I know from going through a similar experience where a rogue was skimming from the treasure when he got their first some of the more mundane details where missed. It was ten coins here twenty coins their a couple gems and so on, but as time went on he accumulated quite a bit of wealth. It didn't even occur to the dm at the time that the players excess wealth he had to cart around would eventually become noticable. If memory serves 50 coins equals a pound. Even with only a few hundred coins that adds up to a lot of jingling baggage eventually. If you're travelling with people who have to unpack and pack your daily belongings its tough to hid much. If they are trying to hide something it would become noticeable how secretive they're being.
mailman 12-13-07, 11:28 PM	thanks for those posting I have read all the posts here and will stick to my previous judgement (see my above post of how to deal with the rogue) I believe that is the best course of action, although I do agree with the most of the posters about leaving the group. Except I did talk to the rogue (OOC) and we sort of talked it out that we're going to continue as it is, if PvP (both in trying to screw each other over and actual death was to occur) we'd both be ok with and have designated out back up characters in case we die. Though I am still frustrated a lil bit about it, I am enjoying the fact that I will or possibly get to smack him up and Mark him, or maybe kill him. The point is that I agree with most of you and if you see my above post, my course of action is both rationale and just. My DM just doesn't want to interfere, like mostly at all. He told me that he couldn't stop me from killing the rogue but that he would like it if I didn't do it, I told him that I would like it if the rogue stopped stealing and extorting the party, and he said he'll consider limiting that as well.
FinalSonicX 12-14-07, 12:05 AM	The rogue has only stolen perhaps a grand total (from both npcs and players) 50-60 gold plus two rings. that wouldn't be hard to conceal at all. I believe that the fundamental difference between punishment for the rogue and punishment for the warblade is that the stealing is completely in character and logical given his character's alignment and current view of the party. the warblade, however, has repeatedly shown himself to be very diplomatic and official. he has never simply exploded with anger before that I can recall. so waking up one day without any evidence at all of the rogue's theft and killing the rogue is far too unnatural of a shift, unless he was suffering from some sort of mental illness (which he is not). the 1 level loss, to me, is simply there to promote role playing and not metagaming. the reaction of simply killing the rogue is metagaming because it's the easy way out, even if it isn't the most appropriate one for the current situation and the character's alignments/personalities. the warblade is currently the same level as the rogue and fighter, and is higher than the warlock. now, if the rogue was killed and forced to re-roll at level 1, then the fighter and warblade would be tied up at the top in terms of levels. in order to balance out the power a bit, a 1 level loss seems like a good way to sort of mildly penalize the player for being so quick to resort to the easy way out. all it really does is establish the fighter as the highest level character (though he's mostly useless anyway) and it would allow me to tone down the difficulty for a level so that everyone can get back up to speed. once again, I'm not going to stop the warblade from killing the rogue, I'd just prefer it if he at least tried to solve the situation in-game, and develop some sort of reasoning for killing the rogue beyond "I suspect him of stealing something". if he can properly explain to my why his character would want to kill the rogue beyond his own metagaming, then I'm 100% A-ok with him killing the rogue, and there would be no penalties. I'm not exactly sure how this is my fault. I obviously share the blame of not serving as an arbiter, and I could probably design my encounters in such a way as to prevent theft, but then I would be sacrificing the realism I'm aiming for with the campaign. I roll loot, or pick it, I pick a group of enemies, I give them a motivation and locations, and I designate which monsters are carrying what. if one player manages to sneak ahead and kill the only miniboss and loot his corpse, I cannot simply take all the magic items he was just using and magically transport them to a zombie or other fodder closer to the general party. that would be breaking the immersion. it isn't my fault that the player decides to steal, and succeeds in his check. the only way I could prevent this from happening is to either intervene and smack him with the god hand or I could simply bar his character from playing, but that's far too harsh of a reaction to something so minor (at this point). but as the warblade said, I've decided to try to limit the extent of his theft by a few means. one, I'm going to start introducing slightly more bulky magic items so that he cannot just palm them. next, I'm going to perhaps introduce some sort of item which allows the leader of the party to detect magic items within a 5 foot radius. then, he could use this item to scan the rogue every so often to make sure he's staying relatively honest. then all he could do is steal mundane items, and a maximum of 10 gp roughly per "opportunity" to steal (barring npcs, of course). beyond that, I'm leaving it up to the players.
YamiShinobi 12-14-07, 12:12 AM	problems with rogue steriotypes (mostly n00bs) sticky fingered 96% of the time almost always chaotic neutral (sometimes neutral evil) stealing like crazy kleptomanics loots more wealth than the rest of the party pockets coins like crazy loots every creature's goods charges fees to the party robs the party robs every npc involved in some criminal service (usually burglar or pickpocket) in some cases, they will search check everything, pick every lock, and disable every device (this may be good, but gets repetitive, especially if they search every five foot square until they succeed)
ObscureInfo 12-14-07, 12:24 AM	Sorry, I am a "johnny come lately" to this party, but here's my advice: In character, your friend is a thief. You know for a fact that he has stolen military supplies and "other things". You chose to do nothing about it. This would have been a very good time to outline your party's expectations of each other. ("It's alright to steal from others, but don't steal from us and don't sneak magic items that are rightfully the group's.") But you didn't. You let it go. And by doing so, you enabled him to keep doing it. This business of going through your stuff and taking some of your gold before giving you your own potions has got to stop. Repaying him for his potions if you need them is only fair, but "paying" him for your own potions? No way. In character, you woke up after being unconscious with the thief standing over you. He told you he gave you one of his potions. You check your supply. Is he lying? You have a character sheet for a reason. With a "teammate" like that, my character would keep a very close eye on all his stuff, including gold. If anything goes "missing", you know who to blame. He would need to submit to a body search in order to prove his innocence. DnD does not have the "innocent until proven guilty" kind of legal system. A known criminal needs to prove he is not guilty, otherwise it is assumed that he did. Bluff only works if you have an open mind. Look at the skill examples. There are hefty penalties if you have a reason not to believe him or it puts you at risk. As for the share & an half that he keeps helping himself to, that is harder in game. Your character needs to know or suspect that he has done this. Without knowing what exactly is in these treasures, there is no way to stop him from helping himself to a little extra. But if he is walking away from a fight to "explore " ahead, you have grounds for discipline. The most important rule of a party is "I'll watch your back if you watch mine." Walking out in a fight breaks that rule. Let his character know if he does it again, he is on his own. He is out of the group. (and your friend can role up his new character) If the party members know he took out the BBEG (or mid-boss), they will want to know if he had anything on him. After all, if the party didn't handle the underlings, the rogue couldn't have taken on the BBEG by himself. They can't prove anything, but they will suspect him for days afterward. If the rings have some special powers, the rest of the party should notice if he suddenly can survival big falls or can go invisible at will or can climb better than he used to. If the ring just gives him a AC bonus or something that is unnoticable, you should just let it go. Have your character watch the rogue like a hawk, but if you can't spot anything, you will have to give up the idea. So to recap: Leaving the party in a fight is grounds for removal from the party. Have everyone keep a close tab on all their possessions. If something goes missing, always look to the rogue. Even if it is found in someone else's bag. Rogues like to do this to throw off the scent of people suspicious of them. If he steals from the party overtly again, you will "force" him to strip search to find missing items. Before you get back to town. Like Tanis always did to Tasslehoff the Kender. Assume he took it and make him prove that he didn't. If you can't catch him in the act of increasing his share of the loot, let it go. He will either slip up and you can arrest him, or he will much better at the things he needs to be (MS, Hide, etc) to be a better scout. If he noticably has more money than the rest of you, you can assume he has been pilfering and can confiscate all his goods. Leave him broke and itemless in the next town. THat's my idea, anyway.
mailman 12-14-07, 12:49 AM	to yamishinobi i think my rogue friend is 90% of what you described..lol and to ObscureInfo..yea i'm aware of my situation and it s a little bit my blame for not locking onto this type of bad behaviour first, anyway like i said in my previous posts i'll follow your guy's advice and well do what i said i'd do in my previous posts! thanks in advance!
kelvinaw273 12-14-07, 10:02 AM	beyond that, I'm leaving it up to the players. I know you are trying to be neutral in this, but to all intents and purposes you are siding with the rogue's player. It may be good RP, but it bad gaming. The game isn't all about rules, RP and tactics ... it's also about being a good sport. This isn't that.
Ollee64 12-14-07, 11:25 AM	Now im not normally someone who puts in an opinion because usually my opinions are looked down upon, but how about you try taking a bit more of a severe reaction when you catch him stealing next. What i mean by this is the medevil(sp?) reaction and just take a hand. I think that may change his mind. I mean it is a bit of PvP but i personally am a believer that while the act of outright killing or purposfully severly harming another PC is counter productive, But a little, or even alot, of inner party conflict is good for story and fun. In the one game were playing now, I am a Rouge/Cleric(were playing gestalt) and the essential party leader is a Fighter/Wizard who lost is wizard powers. But I told him to shut up once in some RP and he took it to heart. Through our adventures we have aquired a pirate ship and crew(long story) and to set an example he beat me pretty hard, but he did it in an extremely creative way.(kinda) he essentially stole the idea from The newest bond movie, Casion Royale. He cut out the bottom of a chair, Put me in there, got a rock and rope, and beat me to within an inch of my life, it was great. But what im getting at is that while slaughtering members of your party isn't good for the party and isn't any fun for your fellow players, a little inner party conflict is a good thing. So just try and catch him again, and when you catch him again, call him on it.