Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cheezgrater 02-03-06, 02:52 PM	My group just started a session with a new DM (experienced player, we all know him from outside the game, but this is his first time with our group). He started us with level 12 characters, but then proceeded to give us the most bizarre set-up possible. Each of the 5 characters received exactly 300 gold and one minor magic item rolled completely at random off the table in the DMG. This sets us well below the average wealth for level, but I figured it would level itself out. But then he made it worse. Our magic items were "custom crafted" for us, and will not function if given to anyone else, and so no vendor will buy them. Which means the party druid is stuck with Plate Mail, the fighter gets a magic dagger of uselessness, the rogue makes out like a bandit (at least comparatively) with a +1 shortsword, the cleric doesn't fare too badly with leather armor, but the most horribly screwed is the sorcerer with a nice +1 Thundering GREATAXE!! So, we have a party with less than 0.3% of their expected wealth (since the magic items are mostly useless), and the *easiest* combat we have faced so far had an EL 4 levels higher than the party. The DM can't figure out why every battle is a near TPK. When I pointed out that a significant factor was lack of equipment, his response was "dude, I gave you guys a ton of money in the last session". (Each person in the party ended up with a total of 30 silver pieces). When I showed him the wealth by level table in the DMG, he said that those figures were asinine and no party would ever need that much money, much less a single character. So, my question is, what are some ways to deal with a incredibly low-money campaign. (The only thing I can really think of is Vow of Poverty, which my sorcerer took as soon as I realized how badly we were going to get money-screwed. But VoP doesn't work near as well for some of the other combatants, and it would really bugger over the RP for every character to have VoP). Anyone have any suggestions?
Mit Ratten Lebt 02-03-06, 02:55 PM	Die. Multiple times. Eventually, start making comments like "Well, if our fighter had some +2 Full Plate Mail, things would go a lot smoother."
Cymraegmorgan 02-03-06, 03:05 PM	The age old standby: Have a sit-in. Have the party refuse to move from their base, refuse any action(even self-defense) all the time bemoaning the fact that their magic is useless and they are too ashamed to face the world with it. party druid is stuck with Plate Mail, the fighter gets a magic dagger of uselessness, :rolleyes: Talk about "asinine"! Why is kicking him out/replacing him not an option?
ShadowDragon8685 02-03-06, 03:05 PM	Shoot him. In the face. With. A. Hammer. After that's been done, explain to him, very carefully, why the random item idea was asinine, why every fight is a near TPK, why 3 GP is literally something 12th level characters can normally use to wipe their asses with, and why he's being the idiot.
wolfram_stout 02-03-06, 03:14 PM	Ask him questions about your magic items...tons of questions....Where did they come from, who made them, why did they make them for only one person, why would they make an unusable item for that person. Have each person who has a useless item ask him these questions one at a time right in the middle of a session. It won't help anything, but it may make him as frustrated as you. Have the druid opine loudly about having to face the temptation of using foul metal. (At least the sorc can take martial weapon feat to get some small use out of the ax). Wolfram
ShadowDragon8685 02-03-06, 03:17 PM	Kill all your characters. Make a group of nothing but VoP Monks/Clerics/Psions/Sorcerers devoted to Ilmater. :)
Gailbraithe 02-03-06, 03:22 PM	Die. Multiple times. Eventually, start making comments like "Well, if our fighter had some +2 Full Plate Mail, things would go a lot smoother." That sounds like a plan to me.
danielinthewolvesden 02-03-06, 03:55 PM	The random item idea was kinda interesting. But to still not have enough wealth- that's wrong. The PC's should be no more than one level of wealth lower on the DMG table. For every "level" less that that you lose about an ECL- although your wealth is so impossible low it's hard to make that rule of thumb work(as it sounds like about 10 levels down!) . I am suprised EVERY battle hasn't been a TPK. Your party's ECL is around 6 or so, I'd guess. I have been DMing for 30 years. Please talk to your DM in a group, and quietly and rationally. Just tell him "we're not having any fun".
Wilds 02-03-06, 04:14 PM	Kill all your characters. Make a group of nothing but VoP Monks/Clerics/Psions/Sorcerers devoted to Ilmater. :) Do IT
Keenath 02-03-06, 04:20 PM	Show him the DMG magic item costs, asking, "How can anyone ever afford these items without asinine amounts of money?" If he still thinks 3 gp is a decent amount of treasure, I'd simply tell him this: "Having no equipment means our party is much weaker than they should be. The wealth per level guidelines are part of what it means to be level 12. Without it, we can't possibly handle CR 12 opponents, much less CR 14. And we're not having any fun, skirting the edge of death in every combat." Tell him that his starting treasure scheme might be decent if it were used for third level characters, and if the characters each got a piece of equipment that somehow relates to their class, but as it is -- where did a sorcerer get a personally attuned greataxe, and why is he still carrying it around? I'm a big fan of solving problems like this outside the game. Talk to the DM and be honest. Being irritating in-game (such as staging a death-fest or having everyone become VOPs, fun as that may be) tends to cause more bad feelings than solutions. You are not forced to have him be the DM, nor forced to play. If he still refuses to see reason, tell him (and get everyone together on this) that you're not interested in playing this campaign anymore.
Keenath 02-03-06, 04:24 PM	Oh, and let us know what happens. I'm interested.
Syd_Galion 02-03-06, 04:32 PM	Start ambushing merchants on busy commerce roads this should help you bag a few gold, you dont even have to kill anyone. But I agree that your situation sucks big time, you could also find another DM or DM yourself. I agree though that the wealth by level is total bullcrap, In the game I'm currently playing we have just reached lv 21 and the combined wealth of all 3 pc doesnt event come close to what a 20th lv pc should have according to the DMG. We have a good buff mage/cleric though.
cheezgrater 02-03-06, 04:59 PM	The reason I'm not DMing it myself is that I already DM the other two campaigns that we run. I really wanted an opportunity to just sit back and play, and he was the only one even remotely interested in DMing. I'm gonna try to talk to him again tonight. I'll let you all know how it goes.
masterofmayhem 02-03-06, 05:09 PM	Unbelievable. :nonono: Every time, (every time!) I think I have seen the stupidest thing I could saw, something like this jumps out and headbutts me in the face. This is ridiculous. Your DM is a moron. Make him read the DMG. For Pelor's sake, make him read it. Honestly, you should have to at least skim through the DMG before DMing! :nonono:
TheChilliGod 02-03-06, 05:52 PM	Let me give you something. http://www.maj.com/gallery/chau2/DDStuff/crossbowhammergun.gif It's a hammergun. Use it wisely. This DM doesn't sound like the type that'll listen to anything from anyone, so I'd say it's not worth trying to talk some sense into him (although, if you succeed anyway, congrats). And, as they say, actions speak louder than words.
Mit Ratten Lebt 02-03-06, 06:24 PM	Lmao
Bruunwald 02-03-06, 07:24 PM	This is a really funny situation. I mean it sucks for you, and I'm sorry about that. But from here it sounds hilarious. "Dude, I gave you guys a ton of money in the last session." Can I ask... was that statement immediately followed by the sucking intake sound of a certain leafy narcotic?
Rhomphaia 02-03-06, 07:28 PM	ChilliGod, where in Heironeous' name did you get that picture?
TheChilliGod 02-03-06, 07:33 PM	ChilliGod, where in Heironeous' name did you get that picture? I made it. Roughly 15 minutes before I posted it. Simply by finding a crossbow and a hammer off google, then sticking them together by use of one of those fancy shmancy graphics programs.
Braekor Dragonfang 02-03-06, 08:33 PM	if none of this works, you could always try eating your items (or your character sheets)
tompulsar 02-03-06, 09:24 PM	I thought you said he was an "experianced" player before DMing? Ask him if this is true or not because anyone who has ever actually PLAYED D&D knows that characters live and die by their magical loot :mad:
Neo-Sapian 02-03-06, 09:39 PM	I agree that talking to your DM outside of the game and telling him your grievances with supportive evidence is the best idea. If your DM still refuses to give you the the equipment you need to face CR's close to your level then refuse to face what he throws at you. Run away. Don't accept his adventure hooks. Use Gather Information to look for Kobold lairs and Goblin camps. If he continues to throw absurdly high CR's at you without providing you with the necessary equipment fight the best you can til there is a TPK. In the end if he refuses to DM a game where you have fun then you should consider not playing. D&D is a game and hence should be fun.
BadCatMan 02-03-06, 10:15 PM	For a start you could try ignoring his ranting about who can use what. Swap your items to whoever's most deserving and can actually use the damn things, and when he complains, shush him. "Yeah, yeah, whatever." Can be quite effective. Or really make him mad. :D
MoogleEmpMog 02-04-06, 02:11 AM	Play Iron Heroes. Or Conan the Roleplaying Game. Or Grim Tales. Or d20 Modern. Or Fantasy HERO. Or True20. Or SilCore. Or GURPS Fantasy. Or Runequest. Or ANY GAME THAT DOESN'T HANG AT LEAST 75% OF ITS PLAY BALANCE ON MAGIC ITEMS. I can completely sympathise with the DM for wanting to not hand out the traditional grab bag o loot or send you to MagiMart to pick out your favorite gear, but there are literally hundreds of fine game systems, many of which use the exact same mechanics as D&D 3.5, that are not BUILT around having that magical equipment available. :nonono:
cheezgrater 02-04-06, 02:38 AM	Well, we have some progress after tonight. I talked to him, ran over the tables and prices with him, and he caved a bit. We ended up with a little over 6000 gp for the session (which is a huge leap considering that we had 300gp to start with), so I have hope that the issue might peacefully resolve itself.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 02-04-06, 11:16 AM	Show him the art and gems table the DMG. I can relate to this guy, I often think I am handiing too much loote to my party, and then apon audit I discover that they have around 50% of what that the DMG suggests. What I was doing was was most of their loote came from gear they recovered off the BBEG. I give him too much and his CR is off scew. I really hated random magic item generation becuase it often made no sence for the BBEG what tumbled out of the charts. I solved the problem by rolling out randomly, and then liquidating everything. I would then have the BBEG buy an approirate amount of gear from that, and the rest was turned into art objects to decorate the dungeon. The dungeon gets more flavour, the party gets their loote, and the BBEG is not a total party whipe becuase he has triple the gear is sapposed to. On that note a party can do just fine with less then what is recomended if they are smart enough to compenstae. However less then half will most ceretainly cuase the problems you are facing. But anything from 75% or more is just fine. I do agree that with Shawdo dragon on this, 3 GP for a 12th level party is just plain insulting. It would be like your boss offering to pay for an 8 hour sift with a lolly-pop and used toilet paper.
Archangel62 02-04-06, 04:11 PM	To those who saw my houserule involving feat training that's also part of how I balance treasures, players can learn special combat techniques and things like that rather than massive amounts of treasure, it ends up usually balancing out fairly well, just an idea.
DracoPhoenix 02-08-06, 11:29 AM	If the the encounters are ~+4 and you are surviving, you should be racking up the xp. Or is he equally economic there? But even then, being lvl 20 with nothing to show for it does kinda blow.
babysamurai 02-08-06, 11:54 AM	"Dude, I gave you guys a ton of money in the last session." Can I ask... was that statement immediately followed by the sucking intake sound of a certain leafy narcotic? That's totally hilarious, but I'm wondering what country you're from, because in the U.K. and the U.S.A. marijuana has never been classified as a narcotic. ...hallucinogen I believe.
High Octane 02-08-06, 12:15 PM	That's totally hilarious, but I'm wondering what country you're from, because in the U.K. and the U.S.A. marijuana has never been classified as a narcotic. ...hallucinogen I believe. How inaccurate of a classification can you get? Anyway, I agree with the "change the game" sentiment. D&D by design, is heavy magic, and heavy magic item dependant. Changing that changes the dynamics of the game. If the DM doesnt like that, he should either HEAVILY adapt the world to treat the PCs with more leniancy, or should change the game.
Driven 02-08-06, 02:37 PM	I say knock him out and lock him in room with a really angry man and give him the following. Toothbrush $10 Rubberband Make sure the angry man has a freaking arsenal.
Cymraegmorgan 02-08-06, 03:18 PM	I say knock him out and lock him in room with a really angry man and give him the following. Toothbrush $10 Rubberband Make sure the angry man has a freaking arsenal. MacGyver could beat the angry man without the $10, he would just need a penny.
Borne Of Hate 02-08-06, 06:51 PM	Chuck Norris could do it with just his beard. as far as the OP.... I would say that introducing a new person to your game as the DM is your first problem. I have been gaming with the same group for a couple years now, and only recently have I decided to DM.(my game hasnt started yet though) The problem is not with his playing, which he has been doing for years, but with his misunderstanding of the rules in general. DnD is a game of balance, and if it is tampered with in one direction then there should be equally enough tampering in the opposite in order to keep things even. Tell him that the designers and playtesters were not just a group of hacks that sat in a room with a 12 pack of mountain dew. Tell him that every rule has its place, especially when it directly effects the economy, the players, the npcs, and the world that he has created.
Vacerious 02-08-06, 07:14 PM	After that's been done, explain to him, very carefully, why the random item idea was asinine, why every fight is a near TPK, why 3 GP is literally something 12th level characters can normally use to wipe their asses with, and why he's being the idiot. I think I know the fault here (though I might be wrong). Apparently, this idiot DM has recently gone off playing World of Warcraft while doing a ton of drugs. During gameplay, some of his nerves got fried, which included the ones that separated the mechanics of both WoW and DnD. To help compensate for their loss, the other nerves simply fused the two nerves together, so now, he confuses the WoW monetary system with that of DnD. (For anybody who has not played World of Warcraft, 3 gold is a TON for 12th level characters.) If this is the case, I seriously reccommend you stop playing DnD with him and get him to rehab or a sanitorium (i.e. the looney bin) as quickly as possible, because there is no telling what other nerves were fried from the cacophony of illegal substances he consumed. Either that, or the DM in question is a complete and utter jackass, and simply needs a good thwacking with a DMG, followed by execution by HammerGun.
Ulorian 02-08-06, 07:42 PM	That's totally hilarious, but I'm wondering what country you're from, because in the U.K. and the U.S.A. marijuana has never been classified as a narcotic. ...hallucinogen I believe.Strictly speaking, marijuana is a cannabinoid, although it is (incorrectly) classified as a narcotic in the UK and the US. One thing marijuana most certainly is not is a hallucinogen. You can tell a hallucinogen because it makes you... hallucinate, which is something marijuana will never do for you.
Papa_duval 02-09-06, 07:35 AM	Take the ancestral relic feat (can be anything - just as long as its a mastercrafted item) Sacrifice your magic item to the relic, therefore empowering the relic. (Book of exalted deeds in case you were wondering) Alternatively, take up a trade, refuse to adventure as you make money through your craft/profession skills (there are rules for this too, in the PHB, so its totally core) Continue to work until you have enough money to buy some nice items, or until the DM gets so frustrated and realises how much of a muppet he is being
Black Kitten 02-09-06, 09:59 AM	My group just started a session with a new DM (experienced player, we all know him from outside the game, but this is his first time with our group). He started us with level 12 characters, but then proceeded to give us the most bizarre set-up possible. Each of the 5 characters received exactly 300 gold and one minor magic item rolled completely at random off the table in the DMG. This sets us well below the average wealth for level, but I figured it would level itself out. But then he made it worse. Our magic items were "custom crafted" for us, and will not function if given to anyone else, and so no vendor will buy them. Which means the party druid is stuck with Plate Mail, the fighter gets a magic dagger of uselessness, the rogue makes out like a bandit (at least comparatively) with a +1 shortsword, the cleric doesn't fare too badly with leather armor, but the most horribly screwed is the sorcerer with a nice +1 Thundering GREATAXE!! So, we have a party with less than 0.3% of their expected wealth (since the magic items are mostly useless), and the *easiest* combat we have faced so far had an EL 4 levels higher than the party. The DM can't figure out why every battle is a near TPK. When I pointed out that a significant factor was lack of equipment, his response was "dude, I gave you guys a ton of money in the last session". (Each person in the party ended up with a total of 30 silver pieces). When I showed him the wealth by level table in the DMG, he said that those figures were asinine and no party would ever need that much money, much less a single character. So, my question is, what are some ways to deal with a incredibly low-money campaign. (The only thing I can really think of is Vow of Poverty, which my sorcerer took as soon as I realized how badly we were going to get money-screwed. But VoP doesn't work near as well for some of the other combatants, and it would really bugger over the RP for every character to have VoP). Anyone have any suggestions? I am really interested in learning your age now, since I am at the moment 20 years old and my whole group is also in that age-catagory. We talk about those things. If my partymembers think that something isn't right or my judgement is wrong, I listen to them and in return they accept the occasionally: "I am DM and I want it this way for now"-reply, since they know that I do not screw them over intentionally. (example: lvl 11 Wizard with 14 HP left and under attack by 4 lvl 6 Orcs is fleeing from said Orcs (did him over 50 dmg the previous round). He is the only truly dangerous partymember seen (the others did attack, but did nearly no dmg). Me: *going through rules* There must be something I can do to save him... Player: Just do it. C'mon, they _are_ attacking me. Me: *rolls dice and brings wizard down to -15* Sorry :( ) Talk to your DM. Tell him you would like to play it in a different way, with the rest of the group. And also explain to him that it's a game. The idea is that if you do not game with him, he has no players and no game and that the same goes for you players, that without a DM there is no game. Explain to him that you understand his ideas, but that they do not match with yours and that you hope you can talk with him about changing a few things. If not, leave. And take everyone with you. SHOW him that without players he has no game. Then ensure you can talk to him again and explain that you just showed that his game only running with BOTH him and the players and that HE is there to make the players feel happy.
Thelandrach 02-09-06, 12:33 PM	Write up a list of things your character can buy, now that he has "tons of treasure." 30 sp should buy you such exciting things as salt, rocks, and a bale of hay. Also write up a list of things your character would like. Respect the DM's opinion that the rules as written give PC's too much stuff and make it a very spartan list. Say, a couple scrolls of 3rd-level spells. Not too unreasonable a thing for a 12th level sorceror to have in his pack. Show the DM how the two lists don't match, exactly, and figure out how many games you're going to have to go through, at 3 gp per game, in order to buy two scrolls of Fly. If he thinks that's a reasonable thing, you really are screwed.
Bruunwald 02-09-06, 04:06 PM	That's totally hilarious, but I'm wondering what country you're from, because in the U.K. and the U.S.A. marijuana has never been classified as a narcotic. ...hallucinogen I believe. Well, whatever. I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow, but I think I can be forgiven that I don't know 100% of the official classifications of 100% of everything on Planet Earth. The point is, the boy sounds like he's been sipping the monkey juice. Grazing in the loco weed. He's one toke over the line. He's drivin' that train. He's three sheets to the wind. He's baked. He's stoned as a goat. He's hammered (and not by Chilli's hammergun). He's a drunk and a pothead. You get the point.
Millennium 02-09-06, 04:59 PM	This DM sounds like he would be happiest playing another system. If you can afford to get him Iron Heroes, then that's the approach I'd recommend, since it's at least somewhat compatible with whatever D&D stuff he already has. Failing this, does anyone here have information on exactly how the monster CRs are figured out? Having this sort of information on hand would be extremely useful to someone trying to explain to their DM that D&D just doesn't function well in a low-treasure setting unless you're willing to rebalance everything. By the way, I second the idea of VoP characters dedicated to Ilmater. It puts some roleplaying restrictions on you, what with the Exalted characters and all, but I suspect it'll be worth it. Most likely he's trying to prevent powergaming (a pointless and misguided effort), but there are ways to powergame a low-treasure setting. Take ruthless advantage, and with a little luck he'll learn his lesson.