Post/Author/DateTime	Post
T_Stalker 01-30-08, 07:21 AM	How the hell does one deal with a Drow in the party? Last week we got 2 new players in our small group. First I was thinking, "Yes, finally we can get a party of 4!", then I hear she wanted to play a Drow. Ironically, her boyfriend plays a dwarven paladin. I don't get it. The two of them together knew nothing of DnD, except the fact that drow are supposed to be evil. Why do some people think it's a good choice to make? (Yes, she asked for dual scimitars, no she didn't get any.) Now I'm playing a dwarven cleric and playing my part hating the ***** IC, which she played along great. The paladin though had about the personality of a pine apple and was no help in resolving any situation. We played the Dark and stormy knight module, I figured not to be a total ass and outright attack her, which I feel I IC should have totally done, especially since she found nothing more amusing then being as unlikeable as possible (and of course the rogue-obligatory stealing from the party). Unfortunately in the end she was still at full HP and I was out of spells, otherwise I would have outright killed her, just to get it over with. Is there any, any possible reason at all why one would IC take her up in the party? (2 Dwarfs: cleric+paladin and a female half-orc fighter which we apparently hired as muscle.) The roleplay in itself was great, as was she, I'm not denying, but I did not have fun. I don't like arguing, mostly cause I suck at it, and I don't want to spend my saturdays doing just that. Hell, I was frustrated for 2 days afterwards. So can anybody give me a decent hook on this? Otherwise, I think I'm forfeiting this campaign. Many thanks, T_S
DrMorganes 01-30-08, 08:12 AM	Given the long lifespans of dwarves and elves, yes, it is indeed possible to have sufficient pre-game backstory to allow a plausible IC reason for a dark elf to be in your party. YOUR character doesn't necessarily have to like her - and in fact probably would be very suspicious of her motives for quite a long time. It comes down to this: is this a big enough issue for you to leave the game? If it is, then do so. You're not doing anybody any favors by sitting around all gloom-and-doom during everyone else's fun time. Personally, it's not for me. I raise an eyebrow to Drizz't clones, then shake my head, suck it up, and roleplay my character accordingly. By your own admission she's a good player and a (I think) a decent person. Suck it up and have some fun.
T_Stalker 01-30-08, 08:27 AM	Forgot to mention: we only met her in the first room of the tor. Ergo => no pre-game back story.
Krusk 01-30-08, 08:44 AM	You have never met her. She steals from you. Your alignments differ vastly. She is as you put it a *****. racial hatred. No there is no IC reason to keep her in the party. Unless you are some form of masocist. I would politely ask her to make something that shares a party alignment, G or at least N, and if she refuses I would retire my character creating an evil one or at least a neutral one. So at least the party gets along better. A few things I ntoed. -how is the paladin traveling with an evil person? I would bring this up. - Rogues do not have to steal from the party. That makes them a theif, and just as bad as any other random encounter and should be delt with as such. - Evil does not generally turn on its party. Explain how even evil people need allies, and if she is a ***** and steals from you, she will not have any.
Ariakus 01-30-08, 08:58 AM	I've only played with a drow in an evil party, so it should be difficult, but not impossible. First, a paladin would travel with evil if there was a glimmer of conversion, which being a rogue, she should be able to string him along with the sympathy card, and occasionally the "damsel in distress" or just straight BS ( a good Bluff score works well here). Second, she is with the party filling a necessary role as a rogue...it's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it. And stealing from the party can be fun, but also a quick way to getting a PK or booted if she gets caught...and she should eventually be a suspect if enough theft has occurred...especially if the party just met her...there should be trust issues there already. It seems like there is contention there amongst the party, and that will get old...it has already gotten to you in one session...the others may feel the same. You should find out if others feel this way and bring it up that's her character is more of a disruption than anything.
Nephlite 01-30-08, 09:29 AM	How the hell does one deal with a Drow in the party? Last week we got 2 new players in our small group. First I was thinking, "Yes, finally we can get a party of 4!", then I hear she wanted to play a Drow. Ironically, her boyfriend plays a dwarven paladin. I don't get it. The two of them together knew nothing of DnD, except the fact that drow are supposed to be evil. Why do some people think it's a good choice to make? (Yes, she asked for dual scimitars, no she didn't get any.) Drows do not always have to be evil. (drizzty is example). Is she evil? If not than it is a racial issue. You neede to clarify. Is there any, any possible reason at all why one would IC take her up in the party? (2 Dwarfs: cleric+paladin and a female half-orc fighter which we apparently hired as muscle.) Yes, 1/2 Orc and Drow are outcast. They share a bond of not being excepted. Which is why they adventure. The roleplay in itself was great, as was she, I'm not denying, but I did not have fun. I don't like arguing, mostly cause I suck at it, and I don't want to spend my saturdays doing just that. Hell, I was frustrated for 2 days afterwards. So can anybody give me a decent hook on this? Otherwise, I think I'm forfeiting this campaign. Many thanks, T_S Your te one that chose to have a IC arguement... stop having one and thry won't be none. Like the saying, " Don't start nothing, there won't be nothing". The Coralary is, " Don't start something you can't finish."
T_Stalker 01-30-08, 10:07 AM	Nephlite : Drizzt is a fictional character in a book, which means the problems he faced and the solutions he came up with sprouted from the mind of one and the same person. His personality contrasting with was is expected of his race make his story so "grand". (Personaly I think it's a dried up concept. Even/especially when combined with the "battle against far greater numbers"-thingy.) Further, he is the exception that confirms the rule. DnD is a multiplayer, coöperation game. Your te one that chose to have a IC arguement... stop having one and thry won't be none. Anyone who plays a dwarf, meets a drow and seems okay with it is not roleplaying, even if there is a paladin around who tells him she is in fact "not evil". I despise using skill rolls against/amongst party members, besides, as a cleric it's not like I'm bound to catch her (or anybody) in any act. (DC 20 to pick ones pocket, 15 to palm something, you do the numbers.) I believe that if you start doing s**t like that you near might as well go playing pvp. 1/2 Orcs are generally a byproduct of an unwilling copulation and generally far more accepted then Drow, but yes, I already figured that if there was one member that was willing to put up with a drow it'd be her. The character was not trying to make any friends, I'm not playing something exalted, she did not in fact "save the day" and I'm not going to play some mindless healing machine (which would defeat the purpose of ROLE playing).
Mysteria 01-30-08, 10:39 AM	What about trying to tell her nicely that her character's behaviour is not only irritating you character but is in fact irritating YOU, the player and ask her to tone down her character to the point where you (the player) aren't constantly getting angry? She might not even have realised that you (as a player, not as the character) were irritated and put it down to roleplaying your character. Explain to her that this game is supposed to be based on cooperation and that it's really hard to do so if one of the characters is betraying the other characters and stealing from them, even if you, the player, want to go along with her, the player, you shouldn't have to completely change your character concept to fit hers. So, basically, I'd suggest a compromise: You will not react too heatedly to her drow character, but she in turn will not screw over your character so that you, the players, can get along.
Zombie_Babies 01-30-08, 10:49 AM	Yes, 1/2 Orc and Drow are outcast. They share a bond of not being excepted. Which is why they adventure. One issue here: Drow view all other races with contempt. They believe that they are truly the Spider's Pajamas, especially the females. Half-Orcs do not make adventuring buddies, they make slaves. As for the OP, suggest that she waits until the next game to play an evil character so you can all do it. Evil with a Paladin and Cleric can't be fun for anyone. Ever. You can make up all the in-game BS reasons for them to be together you want, you still won't have a solution. At that point it becomes metagaming to force a reason for party cohesion. This rarely works, IMO. Another good idea was suggested by another poster: Retire your cleric and make an evil or neutral character. Not a bad plan. You should be able to keep away from PvP that way and hopefully keep your new players. The one major issue to me is the party theft. If she stole from me then -game be damned- I'd kill her so fast she wouldn't remember what color skin she had. This is an intolerable action and lends serious doubt to your finding any true resolution. Try talking it out. If that fails see if your DM will bounce her. If that fails then leave. Good luck! Sounds like you'll need it...
Krusk 01-30-08, 11:35 AM	First, a paladin would travel with evil if there was a glimmer of conversion, which being a rogue, she should be able to string him along with the sympathy card, and occasionally the "damsel in distress" or just straight BS ( a good Bluff score works well here). Second, she is with the party filling a necessary role as a rogue...it's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it. And stealing from the party can be fun, but also a quick way to getting a PK or booted if she gets caught...and she should eventually be a suspect if enough theft has occurred...especially if the party just met her...there should be trust issues there already. Rogue, no im totally not a bad person. I give to charity and stuff. Paladin- Detect evil. Well now you are not only a bad person but you also lied to me about it. Also damsel in distress doesn't work well when that damsel might be a powerful sorceress capable of creating new planes of existance. Stealing from your trusted friends can be fun? Do you mind if Icome over to your house and just hang out for a bit? Don't mind the overcoat and backpack.
Salla 01-30-08, 12:00 PM	Anyone who plays a dwarf, meets a drow and seems okay with it is not roleplaying, even if there is a paladin around who tells him she is in fact "not evil". Wrong. Not all characters are bigots.
The_Shaman 01-30-08, 12:33 PM	It depends on what "okay" is, but overall it's not a matter of bigotry, it's a matter of common sense. Drow are, by and large, as evil and scheming as you get without being an evil outsider or an aberration, and their relationships to most other races involve more raids and enslaving than any "normal" interaction. So here we have a lone drow, who is likely to be just as bad even if she's not some spy scouting in front of a raid. They and dwarves have, in some settings, had millenia of warfare and outright hatred, both for what they are and what they've done to one another. A properly RPed dwarf who has a clue about his racial history can't not take any of this into account. S/he might be willing to wait and see - for now - but unless there's a darn good reason the dwarf can trust the drow, she won't have many chances to mess up before she has the business end of an axe or hammer going her way. All in all, when you adventure with some characters you should at least trust them not to stab you in the back, and drow are famous for their twitchy fingers. The stealing is going to be a problem - and no, not all rogues are supposed to steal from their party. They have an entire world to indulge in out there, for crying out loud. It's also bad in-game - if anything sends your comrades a message that you're not to be trusted, it's getting caught with their junk in your hand.
T_Stalker 01-30-08, 01:00 PM	Wrong. Not all characters are bigots. A dwarf at a 100 years still hasn't reached his midlife crisis. If he hasn't heared of any "good" drow by then, closest thing probably being just some tolerable elves, I doubt he classifies as a bigot for not even considering the possibility. In fact, in DnD, chances that the drow is in fact using magic to diguise it's aura are higher then that actually being the case. That was, of course, before all drow became chaotic good rebels set out to destroy the prejudices of their race.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-30-08, 01:16 PM	That was, of course, before all drow became chaotic good rebels set out to destroy the prejudices of their race. Relevant link: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html
CCS 01-30-08, 01:20 PM	Is this drow actually evil? I mean, there's a difference between being an unlikable thieving b**** & being an evil one.... You say you met her in the first room of the adventure. How & where'd you meet the dwarven paladin? Granted, you said he has the RP personality of a pineapple, but what was HIS reaction to meeting a drow? Did he use detect evil?? And if not, WHY??? He just met a "friendly" drow! Alarm bells should have gone off in his head. But anyways, ok. Apparently you found some reason not to simply kill her right then & there. Despite the favorable 3-1 odds & the general knowledge that drow are an evil lot. Must've been that old PC glow surrounding her.... So now the 1st adventure is over. You two dwarves return to town, & the 1/2 orcs contract is up. Why is that drow following you??? Oh, that's right, you've all proven yourselves easy marks. Also what kind of reaction will this cause in town? Either because you're now associating with drow, because you've led them to town, or simply because she's wandering the streets? Assuming the drow culture/lore in your game world is typical of the MM, something BAD should occur.... And it really doesn't matter whether she's evil or not. Afterall, what's going to happen if/when the torch & pitchfork weilding mob decides the odds are in their favour? (you could precipitate this you know. Leave her behind as you head back to town. If she follows you, report that your being stalked by drow to the athourities.... If you can't shake her {because your a stumpy little dwarf}, consider sending the 1/2orc on ahead to relay the message. Arrange a warm welcome for her :)) And if she somehow still manages to keep her drow in/near/around the party? Simply don't cast spells on her. Play up your dislike of both drow & this particular character.
Nephlite 01-30-08, 01:44 PM	Is this drow actually evil? I mean, there's a difference between being an unlikable thieving b**** & being an evil one.... In case you missed it, the Paladin detected her as non-evil. And the Dwarf is prejudience against Drow(a little bigot like). And if she somehow still manages to keep her drow in/near/around the party? Simply don't cast spells on her. Play up your dislike of both drow & this particular character. He already does show his dislike. he said the only reason he did'nt kill her after the encounter was he was out of spells and feared he's lose if she was full life. The more i think of this, the Dwarf is plannin on murdering the drow who is innocent of being evil: the dwarf sounds evil. He is definately not good.
Ariakus 01-30-08, 01:49 PM	Rogue, no im totally not a bad person. I give to charity and stuff. Paladin- Detect evil. Well now you are not only a bad person but you also lied to me about it. Also damsel in distress doesn't work well when that damsel might be a powerful sorceress capable of creating new planes of existance. Stealing from your trusted friends can be fun? Do you mind if Icome over to your house and just hang out for a bit? Don't mind the overcoat and backpack. It depends on the type of rogue you're playing... it sounds like you're playing Robin Hood. That's fine, I've played those types of rogues too. But I also like to play the lying, cowardly little rogue that manipulates the party, steals occasionally from the party, and will actually turn the party in to the BBEG if he wont get in trouble and make some gold. And they may trust you, but not the other way around. If the party knows he's a rogue...they more than likely wont trust him anyway, even if he gives to charity.:P The party is not supposed to know you're stealing from them anyway, that's the whole idea...if they suspect, you stop. It's not like you waltz up and begin rummaging through their backpack. You wait for your moment and pickpocket one of the gems the party found and would never miss... The Paladin might detect a light evil presence at that level...and like I said, they live for conversion. And any woman who is in need is something a Paladin cannot resist, even if she's evil...unless she's an evil goddess or demon or something like that. But a barely recognizable evil drow (who is probably hot as hell too) who gives him the puppy dog eyes over running her off may change his mind.
ServantOfDagon 01-30-08, 02:45 PM	Friends, countrymen! I am the DM of the OP. Yes, the Paladin did cast Detect Evil (Chaotic Neutral, so nothing). Hey, the girl is a Drizz't fan. Pretty lame, but yeah, I let it go because we we'd been playing with one DM and two PCs for a year now and we were all in need of some extra players. I talked her out of being an utter Drizz't clone for some damage control. Her reason for leaving the Underdark is that she is arachnophobic. Flimsy, but she's good at playing the comic relief, and anything away from a Drizz't clone background is A-OK in my book -- in fact, the half-orc likes "funny lady" IC a lot. The characters don't have a lot of backstory (but we can retcon) because this was pretty much a playtesting game. If they didn't like the game, we would be back to our old 1 DM, 2 players system. They were quite good for first timers though, and I think there's some good players to be mined from them yet. An example of play: *paladin casts DE* P: "I sense no evil in this one." C: "What? Do it again. The electrical storms must be messing up your abilities." *DE* P: "Nothing." C: "I don't believe it! We'll try again later!" Now, I personally thought this was funny as hell and good RP, from the OP AND the new guy. There will be some difficulties in dealing with NPCs, but I don't think it's insurmountable. I will talk to the Drow PC about the party-robbing, though.
KruniacZio 01-30-08, 02:54 PM	I dont see the problem here. If you have a valid In-Character reason, just stick a knife in her throat. Whats the problem? Kick her into the pit trap, bull rush her off of the bridge, offer her up to the high elven guardsmen, whatever. If your -character- doesnt like the drow -character-, then deal with it In-Character- :D
ServantOfDagon 01-30-08, 03:21 PM	See, I don't even discourage this. Now, the stickler is: Neutral. So killing her without provocation would be a pretty Evil act.
Krusk 01-30-08, 03:26 PM	if anything sends your comrades a message that you're not to be trusted, it's getting caught with their junk in your hand. All too true... As to the problem, shes not evil, and so long as she dosn't do anything too objectionable you might as well let her hang out. I would put stealing from me as too objectionable, but hey to each his own. apparently some people like being stolen from. If she does something overly objectionable, simply turn her over to the elves/police. I'm sure either would be more than happy to take them off your hands. If she keeps stealing just point out how much it sucks when you steal from your friends. when she understands give her car keys back.
ServantOfDagon 01-30-08, 03:29 PM	All too true... As to the problem, shes not evil, and so long as she dosn't do anything too objectionable you might as well let her hang out. I would put stealing from me as too objectionable, but hey to each his own. apparently some people like being stolen from. If she does something overly objectionable, simply turn her over to the elves/police. I'm sure either would be more than happy to take them off your hands. If she keeps stealing just point out how much it sucks when you steal from your friends. when she understands give her car keys back. To be fair, nobody noticed her stealing anything at any point. She should quit it, yes, because she should be grateful for surface-dwellers who, in fact, let her hang.
Lincoln Hills 01-30-08, 04:20 PM	Hey, ServantOfDagon! I think you can improve party solidarity in one easy step. Step 1: The party encounters a different group of adventurers. Including elves. Who attack the party on sight, to kill. In addition to giving the paladin a chance to show how merciful he is ("See, I only beheaded him a little!"), it will help the new girl recognize, both as player and as character, that The Surface People Do Not Like Me. Which will make the party's loyalty (fighting on her behalf, not murdering her as she sleeps, etc.) a little more valuable to her than it is at present... and also make her aware that to a drow intending to visit the surface, the Disguise skill is a good thing to max. Many valuable lessons in a single encounter.
Mysteria 01-30-08, 04:34 PM	No character noticed her stealing, but the players sure did. I don't know about you or the OP, but it would annoy me, as a player, to no end to have to play with somebody who steals from my character ... edit: I'm talking to ServantofDragon here. :)
Dog_O_War 01-30-08, 04:59 PM	How the hell does one deal with a Drow in the party? Last week we got 2 new players in our small group. First I was thinking, "Yes, finally we can get a party of 4!", then I hear she wanted to play a Drow. Ironically, her boyfriend plays a dwarven paladin. I don't get it. The two of them together knew nothing of DnD, except the fact that drow are supposed to be evil. Why do some people think it's a good choice to make? (Yes, she asked for dual scimitars, no she didn't get any.) Now I'm playing a dwarven cleric and playing my part hating the ***** IC, which she played along great. The paladin though had about the personality of a pine apple and was no help in resolving any situation. We played the Dark and stormy knight module, I figured not to be a total ass and outright attack her, which I feel I IC should have totally done, especially since she found nothing more amusing then being as unlikeable as possible (and of course the rogue-obligatory stealing from the party). Unfortunately in the end she was still at full HP and I was out of spells, otherwise I would have outright killed her, just to get it over with. Is there any, any possible reason at all why one would IC take her up in the party? (2 Dwarfs: cleric+paladin and a female half-orc fighter which we apparently hired as muscle.) The roleplay in itself was great, as was she, I'm not denying, but I did not have fun. I don't like arguing, mostly cause I suck at it, and I don't want to spend my saturdays doing just that. Hell, I was frustrated for 2 days afterwards. So can anybody give me a decent hook on this? Otherwise, I think I'm forfeiting this campaign. Many thanks, T_S Wow, your party is oil and water; tap, mineral, baby, and motor all rolled into one big mess. This is what I suggest you do. Ask the player out of game for an ingame reason to actually LIKE her character (actually, I'd have a harder time justifying adventuring with an orc, no matter how half-human she is). You need a reason clearly just to keep the swine alive. Talk to her out of game and decide there for a reason not to battle in-game.
ServantOfDagon 01-30-08, 07:06 PM	Wow, your party is oil and water; tap, mineral, baby, and motor all rolled into one big mess. This is what I suggest you do. Ask the player out of game for an ingame reason to actually LIKE her character (actually, I'd have a harder time justifying adventuring with an orc, no matter how half-human she is). You need a reason clearly just to keep the swine alive. Talk to her out of game and decide there for a reason not to battle in-game. This is really what should happen.
Krusk 01-30-08, 08:20 PM	To be fair, nobody noticed her stealing anything at any point. She should quit it, yes, because she should be grateful for surface-dwellers who, in fact, let her hang. Someone will eventually. And now that the players know to look for it, even subconsciously they may begin to be a little more gaurded or perceptive.
ServantOfDagon 01-31-08, 08:08 AM	Well yeah, that's why I'm going to talk to her about it.
FarSouth 01-31-08, 08:05 PM	I think ServantOfDragon seems to be aware of the potential problems and has them under control. Yes, what this party needs is a reason to close ranks and begin trusting each other. It would be the perfect example of role play to see this drow go from her usual tricks of stealing to actually seeing the rest of the party as comrades. It would be just as rewarding to see the OP's character overcome his natural dislike of the drow and come to appreciate her skills and contribution to the party. ServantOfDragon can help set this up, and I also think it would be a great idea for (a) him to talk to the drow player and suggest she not steal from the other PC's, and (b) T_Stalker to talk to her about finding some common ground for their characters (or at least easing off the arguing). Remember the drow player is new to the group (and possibly new to role playing), so there would be benefits to discussing certain aspects of cooperative play with her, without stamping out her creativity - it sounds like she has great potential.
Edymnion 02-01-08, 02:56 PM	How the hell does one deal with a Drow in the party?By not allowing them in the party in the first place. Its the same answer you give to "I wanna play a wookie!" or "I wanna play a klingon!", and for the same reason.
Lincoln Hills 02-01-08, 04:57 PM	...It's the same answer you give to "I wanna play a Wookiee!" or "I wanna play a Klingon!", and for the same reason. Mmmmm, D&D Wookiee! I can see it now: The elf, the wizard, the dual-scimitar-wielding drow, and the WOOKIE BLOOD MAGUS WITH A GREATCLUB! Hoooooo-ah!
Pathanus 02-02-08, 04:23 AM	Drizzt complex, hehe. DM: You want to be a drow eh? Player: Yes please. DM: Hmm, looks like they have a level adjustment of +2. Player: Huh? DM: Goblin Ambush! Player: Yay I win initiative, Charge! DM: 4 Alchemist Fire's hit you on the surprise round. Player: My magic scimitar protects me from fire. DM: You take 14 damage. Player: I only have 6 hp. DM: You're also on fire, continuing to burn. Seriously though, depending on what you want out of your own time spent roleplaying, ditch the group if you don't like it, simple as that. I would at least give it another session though after reading the posts. Otherwise suggest she get a free Hat of Disguise limited to changing into Drow disguises only and be a normal Elf race to see if she really wants to play a drow or just look like one. I wouldn't recommend a non-standard race for a beginning roleplayer, especially a race that is rarely viewed as anything except evil (unless you are in Eberron). At least there is discussion between the group and DM about the situation instead of letting it fester until explosion.
Mooncalf 02-05-08, 10:40 AM	True party thinking was taught to me by a great man, the captain of "Serenity": Simon: Captain, why did you come back for us? Mal: You're on my crew. Simon: Yeah, but you don't even like me. Why'd you come back? Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this? Think about it.
PhantomTrain 02-05-08, 11:33 AM	Gentle friends, it is with great, extremely sadistic glee that I join this thread. I am certain that precious few of you know me; I am, after all, one among thousands who frequent these forums. But the subject of the Drow PC is one that is dear to me. Without linking to my insane ranting from another (often quoted, I admit) thread, I just have this to say. Your issues with her character are nothing compared to the issues with her as a player. All you needed to tell me was that she was having a great time screwing with the party. You never needed to say the word 'Drow'. In that case, all you need to do is calmly explain to her that she's hurting your good time, and you'd like to work with her to make her fit better as a player into the group. Just put it right out there. Give her a chance to play nice. Work out the out of character stuff, and then tackle the in-character issues. After all, if you were having a great time with her, you'd find a way of linking your characters in a believable, productive way. I'm certain of it. If that fails, talk to the GM. If he bends over, find a new GM. Those are your only options. Now, unfortunately, she's playing a Drow female. That means that she's playing someone who, 99% of the time, has been programmed from birth to see all creatures as either meaningless chattle or potential threats to neutralize. Wait, no, I'm starting to rant. I won't bother linking to the good stuff unless asked. Suffice it to say, in my experience, when someone chooses to be a member of a reviled race, and is not interested in playing a redeemed member of said race, you've got problems that go far deeper than 'her alignment and mine don't match'. It means she is enjoying herself at your expense, intentionally. Good luck.
Nephlite 02-05-08, 12:28 PM	Suffice it to say, in my experience, when someone chooses to be a member of a reviled race, and is not interested in playing a redeemed member of said race, you've got problems that go far deeper than 'her alignment and mine don't match'. It means she is enjoying herself at your expense, intentionally. Good luck. Wait, she isn't evil. Thus, that makjes her redeemed version, doesn't it? He has no alignment issues. He has Bigotry issues. His statements are: She a Drow. I hate Drow. If I ever found her vulnernable, I'd kill her. (These by the way are Drow thoughts in Drow society) In fact, he has became Drow incarnate. Like that old satying, Be careful when you look into the abbyss. The Abbyss might look back. He has became what he hates. This is why: he doesn't want a rivil drow.
PhantomTrain 02-05-08, 04:33 PM	Wait, she isn't evil. Thus, that makjes her redeemed version, doesn't it? No. I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny, but no, that does not make her the redeemed version. A redeemed Drow wouldn't act like one, irrispective of alignment. That is the nature of the redeemed villain. He has no alignment issues. He has Bigotry issues. His statements are: She a Drow. I hate Drow. If I ever found her vulnernable, I'd kill her. (These by the way are Drow thoughts in Drow society) In fact, he has became Drow incarnate. Like that old satying, Be careful when you look into the abbyss. The Abbyss might look back. He has became what he hates. This is why: he doesn't want a rivil drow. Again, I have to disagree with you. If I'm taking you seriously when you didn't mean for anyone to, I apologise, but if you're being serious, I'm afraid you've missed the central point. One player is ruining another player's good time. If she was playing an overbearing paladin, who used her paladin code to stop the party from doing things that they wanted to do, it would be just as disruptive to the game. There would be no argument that a Lawful paladin shouldn't try to force the party to adhere to the laws of a land (yes, yess I know that there are tons of disagreements over what constitutes Lawful, especially within the paladin code, but give me a break). Evil or non-evil is irelevant. All that matters is that she's damaging someone's good time. Now, it is my contention that it's virtually impossible to play a Drow without damaging someone's good time. The Drow are a sucky race, poorly designed on every level (again, I'll link the rant if people want, but otherwise, I'd rather not alienate half the forum). That not withstanding, your only option is to talk to her, then to talk to your GM, then to go play outside.
Nephlite 02-05-08, 04:46 PM	No. I'm not sure if you were trying to be funny, but no, that does not make her the redeemed version. A redeemed Drow wouldn't act like one, irrispective of alignment. That is the nature of the redeemed villain. Where did the OP say she actedd , "Drow"?
PhantomTrain 02-05-08, 04:56 PM	...especially since she found nothing more amusing then being as unlikeable as possible (and of course the rogue-obligatory stealing from the party). T_S Right there. But, and I think I said this a bunch of times now, Drow or non-Drow isn't the problem. She could be playing a human exactly the same, and the core issue wouldn't change. 'Why is this person with us' is a death knell for D&D campaigns. Your GM has to jump on that quick, before it cracks his game in half.
cool_dude1010 02-05-08, 06:08 PM	Wait for a good chance,and then kill the drow! I would not feel guilty to rid the world of there scum!
Nephlite 02-05-08, 09:07 PM	Right there. But, and I think I said this a bunch of times now, Drow or non-Drow isn't the problem. She could be playing a human exactly the same, and the core issue wouldn't change. So, she isn't acting Drow. She's acting like a thief. There is a difference. Drow do not equal thieves automatically. New rogues tend to have that theif=rogue problem.
BlueOmega 02-06-08, 02:38 AM	So, she isn't acting Drow. She's acting like a thief. Okay right THEIR!! Please tell me someone before the adventure bothered to tell her the branch offs from the mere class "Rogue"? Like for instance: Trap-Monkey OR Sneak Attack-Monkey Correct me if I wrong but she didn't make her character on either just a "Looter". So no one bothered to tell her what makes a Rogue, A Rogue as they have several more branches like Arcane-Monkey or Main Fighter-Monkey. Did nobody say to the Drow not even once "Can you tone down the theft?" All these things and more would have really settled this all down in a heart beat.
Nephlite 02-06-08, 07:08 AM	Okay right THEIR!! Please tell me someone before the adventure bothered to tell her the branch offs from the mere class "Rogue"? Like for instance: Trap-Monkey OR Sneak Attack-Monkey Correct me if I wrong but she didn't make her character on either just a "Looter". So no one bothered to tell her what makes a Rogue, A Rogue as they have several more branches like Arcane-Monkey or Main Fighter-Monkey. Did nobody say to the Drow not even once "Can you tone down the theft?" All these things and more would have really settled this all down in a heart beat. Drawback, DM said none of party has noticed the theft. So any action would be metagaming till they notice stuff gone.
Jutter 02-06-08, 08:19 AM	Its the same answer you give to "I wanna play a wookie!" or "I wanna play a klingon!", and for the same reason. Actually, in D&D, they're called 'bugbears' and 'orcs'. :) But back on topic: find a way to make it work. You want to play a dwarf, she wants to play a drow. The DM allows it. Refusing to work together with the other players is not-done, period. You can claim it's roleplaying, but since it's clearly not improving the game-experience it's not worth it. Be the grumpy, drow-hating dwarf if you insist. Use it for some great drow-vs-dwarf roleplaying. Don't let it be a reason for either of you to roll up a new character. Think Legolas and Gimli, who were forced in the same 'party' and became close friends after weeks of argueing (not saying you should play out that particular stereotype, just giving the most well-known example I could think of). As for her character stealing from the others: your DM already stated he'd talk to her. After that's settled, the only possible problem you could have is the racial issue. You can't force her to roll up another character. And personally, I wouldn't roll up a new character or leave a group because dwarfs don't like drow.
T_Stalker 02-06-08, 10:53 AM	First: Legolas was an elf. Which seems to immediately bring me to an unrelated but funny enough second: if he had been in our party, he would have wasted the drow on sight. PhantomTrain: actually I am interested in that thread. (Possibly I've read it already since I went snoopin through your posts) I have no freaking idea when we'll be playing with the two peple in question, so I'm curous to what the DM and the player (they're neighbours) may have come up with. Though I have little hope of anything remotely believable, interesting or amusing. And to all who suggested leaving the game: I actually like the people I normally play with and I'm not going off in search for a new group. I actually came here for an IC reason to take a drow along the party, so far I've gotten one, being that the palladin might be interested in "converting" her. Anyway, I'll keep those interested posted in any future developments, for now I want to thank you all for at least convincing my DM that I'm not alone in thinking that taking a drow along is a bad idea.
PhantomTrain 02-06-08, 06:41 PM	PhantomTrain: actually I am interested in that thread. (Possibly I've read it already since I went snoopin through your posts) Snoopin through my posts, eh? And you still want me to link it. Ok, well. Let it be said, I can be a little abrasive. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=822916&highlight=phantomtrain) When I suggested that the OP quit, it was a 'last resort' kind of thing. I've just seen too many games drag on forever because people weren't willing to try to fix its problems or find something else to do. I've seen people loose friends to silly stuff like that, and I caution against it whenever I can.
T_Stalker 02-07-08, 03:26 AM	Jup, that's the thread I figured it was. Thanks anyway.
Jutter 02-07-08, 03:33 AM	First: Legolas was an elf. Which seems to immediately bring me to an unrelated but funny enough second: if he had been in our party, he would have wasted the drow on sight. Oh dear. My bad. Of course I should have come up with an example of drow-dwarf racial issues that worked out. Because the example I gave is absolutely irrelevant and can't be used at all. Except of course to show you another fantasy character that would have wasted the drow on sight. Because THAT is the most relevant part of my post. Now where did I put that sarcastic font? ;) But seriously, it seems you've already made up your mind. Considering the advice that people have offered you and the parts you respond to, it appears you insist on playing out the racial issues and just need us to tell you that's the best way of dealing with the issue. It could lead to some bad feelings within the group. But if you think playing a dwarf the 'right way' is worth it, go ahead. It's not like it's my group ;)
T_Stalker 02-07-08, 09:16 AM	Jutter: Sorry, it seemed relevant to me. Looking back at it now, I might have better said that if one wanted to compare our situation with the LoTR Gimli-Legolas relationship, Legolas should be cast by an orc who just crawled his way out of Mordor and accidentally stumbled upon the rest of the fellowship, right before they have that fight with the wraiths. I'm not trying to be a jerk and appreciate your input, but if I understand you correctly, you want the rest of the party to just blindly disregard the fact that she is a drow. <sarcastic> If that's the case, why don't we just start skipping over all non-combat scenes, do away with dialog completely and mindlessly wander from dungeon to dungeon? </sarcastic> No really, is that what you're saying, because otherwise I'm totally missing the point? (Which I often do, so I'm told.)
Jutter 02-07-08, 10:17 AM	What I'm saying is that getting along with your fellow players is more important than your character's racial issues. You shouldn't force another player to play (or not play) a certain race, threatening a fight to the death with your character if they don't comply. Your freedom ends where another person's freedom begins. She's permitted to play anything she likes and the DM allows. Hey, sometimes things just don't go your way. Now, since this obviously puts you in a difficult spot and you asked for advice, I'll add some. The paladin claimed she isn't evil. This gives you a valid excuse to give her the benefit of the doubt, as long as you're willing to grasp it. This is a part of roleplaying and dialogue you appreciate so much. You could grasp this as an excuse not to slit her character's throat. Be a good dwarf and stay suspicious of the drow for at least half a campaign. Turn what you perceive to be a problem into a roleplaying challenge.
ServantOfDagon 02-09-08, 07:13 PM	Oh, Jutter, you Dutch godsend, you. Let's get everything straight here. 1st) I don't like that she wanted to play a drow, but I allowed it, to "reel a new player in", so to speak. 2nd) I realize this will have game-world consequences, and will have the NPCs act accordingly. 3rd) The PCs already know she is not Evil. 4th) I've talked to her re: stealing from the party, being more cooperative, etc. And honestly, stealing from the party might have happened if she were a new player playing a human rogue, even. You have no legs to stand on, friend OP.
T_Stalker 02-12-08, 08:45 AM	Jutter: Bollocks. Having an excuse not to slit someone's throat on the spot isn't the same as having a valid reason to voluntarily hang out with a person for a prolonged time. Certainly not if that person is (you think) likely to slit yours. Especially not if you're an adventurer whose life is on the line every couple of days. ServantOfDagon: Dude, I've been in here asking for In Game reasons for a member of any normal playable race to voluntarily hang out with a drow (taking that they know of the race and have no pre-game background), except for that 3rd one, neither of those points qualify. (Even then, Detect Evil only takes you so far. You don't see a whole lot of paladins smiting every evil farmer they come across. ... though with 4E's description of humans, I could see that happening more often in the near future.) (This was not an argument, I just thought it funny.) No legs to stand on? I have Stability! The universal stereotype of dwarves and all the fluff that composes the DnD cosmology is on my side of the argument. And I'm not even argueing, I'm just asking for a hook.
Jutter 02-12-08, 09:32 AM	Having an excuse not to slit someone's throat on the spot isn't the same as having a valid reason to voluntarily hang out with a person for a prolonged time. Certainly not if that person is (you think) likely to slit yours. I agree. Especially not if you're an adventurer whose life is on the line every couple of days. Reality check: you're not an adventurer. You're some guy pretending to be a dwarf on a regular basis. Since you need other people to do that, you better make sure they keep liking you or you'll find yourself singing 'hi-ho' all alone up in your bedroom. Don't get me wrong: I agree completely on the dwarf-drow issue. I simply don't think it's more important than the way the actual people are getting along.
T_Stalker 02-12-08, 10:03 AM	Reality check: you're not an adventurer. You're some guy pretending to be a dwarf on a regular basis. Since you need other people to do that, you better make sure they keep liking you or you'll find yourself singing 'hi-ho' all alone up in your bedroom. Don't get me wrong: I agree completely on the dwarf-drow issue. I simply don't think it's more important than the way the actual people are getting along. I agree. (Figured that line was a little meta when I saw it.) Anyway Jutter, you're not helping me out here. And by helping me out I don't mean finding ways for the dwarf to eliminate one of or seperate himself from the rest of the party, but to find an IC reason for the party to stick together. This doesn't even have to apply to my group in particular, we might as well make a general guide for this. One nice example has been given so far: an exalted character might see it as a mission to convert the poor misunderstood creature. (Personally this satisfies me immensly since this seems like the perfect example of how religion generally defies common sense and even seems to be expected to ... , but that's somewhat totally off-topic.) You think I don't know this annoys my group? Believe me I do, and I'm already dealing with it. Really now, all I'm asking is In Game reasons why the issue at hand might not look like a suicidal stupid idea. The sun can be blue, the sky constantly aflame, water the threat to all life and the poop of a tiny parakiet worth a thousand human lifes. All that, I could somehow deal with. But certain things have to make sense. If you can't make sense of your own characters morality or motivations ... I hear there's a game called Toon for that.
Jutter 02-12-08, 10:22 AM	One nice example has been given so far: an exalted character might see it as a mission to convert the poor misunderstood creature. (Personally this satisfies me immensly since this seems like the perfect example of how religion generally defies common sense and even seems to be expected to ... , but that's somewhat totally off-topic.) There you go. Problem solved. I'm glad you found a way to make it work.
AaronDireBear 02-12-08, 10:46 AM	I concur with the "don't allow it" group here. Causes way too many problems both in the party and the campaign world. I'd allow a half drow provided there's enough of a distinction. Oh wait are you even the DM or just one of the players? Always make sure you let this player know its nothing personal player side that you're just being in character considering the vast majority of dark elves ARE in fact evil. However, if male dark elves leaving their underground homes to escape the evil of their society is commonplace in that setting, its plausible that your character might get along with the drow. As long as he doesn't start dual wielding scimitars and bemoaning his existence. After that he's fair meat.
Nephlite 02-12-08, 11:05 AM	I concur with the "don't allow it" group here. Causes way too many problems both in the party and the campaign world. I'd allow a half drow provided there's enough of a distinction. Oh wait are you even the DM or just one of the players? He is a player. Either way, he original reason was not that the world haates Drow. But that he hates drow. Always make sure you let this player know its nothing personal player side that you're just being in character considering the vast majority of dark elves ARE in fact evil. But he knows she isn't. That doesn't fly.
High Octane 02-12-08, 03:47 PM	How the hell does one deal with a Drow in the party? Act in character and open fire as soon as you see it.
Priere 02-12-08, 04:16 PM	Act in character and open fire as soon as you see it. You people need to read the whole thread before posting something that's already been said (multiple times). T_S, you're looking for a hook right? Well, this character's a rogue. What do rogues do well? They kill opponents, deal with people, and deal with traps. You know she's not evil so what you could use to allow your dwarf to 'tolerate' (note my use of tolerate, not welcome with open arms) is to notice the things she does well that saves the parties butt. And to the DM: Give the players an opportunity for this to happen. It'll help bring all of them together. You don't have to like her, but you can acknowledge that she's useful. The same thing that allows an Evil character to work with a party of good people and not slitting their throats applies here. Also... What alignment is your character anyway? Certainly not Good if he's willing to butcher a proven non-evil character without provocation.